Does anyone have an opinion on Wood River planes? They look like a good planes at a reasonable price.
Domer
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Replies
Domer,
There have been several recent threads on Woodriver planes over on Sawmill Creek.
I looked at the blog and Sawmill Creek but the subject had disintegrated into a discussion whether it is OK to buy products made in China and whether they were knock offs of other designs, etc.
So it was not very enlightening.
I have looked at them at Woodcraft and they look pretty good.
Hopefully, someone will respond as to how they really work.
Domer
Domer,
Mel briefly mentioned them in a post here last week. The planes had just arrived at the Woodcraft in Northern VA where he works part time. Unfortunately, Mel is off to a NASA conference for a week. I'm sure we will be getting some feedback from him when he returns.
You were sure right about the thread over on Sawmill. That took a left turn and kept charging....
-Jerry
My reply is not intended to beat a drum, but to inform ..
The issue that has been raised on other websites is about the moral and ethic factors that go into both the selling and the buying of the recent arrival of Chinese-made tools, such as those labled "Wood River". The question that was raised was whether the purchase of such planes serves to act as a vote of confidence to the retailers involved (to continue their practice), and what the impact would be on the companies (such as LN and LV) whose designs are stolen (since they are not being compensated in this regard). There is a flow-on effect that can seriously affect the lifespan of a small company, etc, etc.
Not all Wood River planes fall into this category, and Woodcraft is not the only retailer selling the products.
Unlike other websites, these issues were dismissed on the Handtools forum here. You have to ask yourself whether they carry water or not, and act accordingly.
Regards freom Perth
Derek
That sounds like Wood River planes are going to be great values, then!
The subject of fair economic competition is real. It has been long said that imatation is the sincerest form of flattery. And all advances are built on the shoulders of what went before. I don't know enough about how close the Wood River plans are to previous designs, but the basics of hand planes are more than a century old and as I understand it have changed very little. So it would seem to me that the charge of stealing the design is over stated. If I am wrong on that, please let me know.As regards China having lower labor costs, that is true but with the vast amount of trade with the rest of the world, China's labor costs are rising and thereby raising the standard of living for their citizens. China and Taiwan have both raised the standards of their products because people won't accept products with very low quality no matter how low the price. The issue of buying American is one that a lot of people support as do I, but if the American products are a lot more expensive and similar quality, I will buy the imports. Domer
I have to agree. LN planes (to my eye at least) are essentially the same as the Stanley Bedrock planes. The obvious design change is the thicker blade, the new chip breaker, and of course new material. The blade, chip breaker and material are pretty standard on new planes (LV, LN, and Clifton), I don't know who was the first to develop these for planes...
To me what really sets LN planes (and Veritas planes) apart are the overall quality of the tool. I've never regretted a plane purchase from LN. I bought a 5 1/2 at a LN event yesterday, and we had it up and going in about 10 minutes (including the guy discussing sharpening and chatting). While there isn't much to go wrong with a hand plane, I know these guys are just a phone call away should I need them. I suspect that if I tried hard enough I could probably get Tom (LN) or Rob (V) on the phone!
Buy American is fine, there are reasons to do it. But we've got to be competitive, either by producing at a high quality or by pricing competitively.
I agree completely. Lots of people think the LN planes are worth the price and I would not argue with them. I don't know much about planes or else I would not have started this blog. But lots of the guys in my woodworking guild have them and swear by them. All this being said, I have cheaped out too many times in the past so I would like to buy quality planes at a price consistent with quality. Which is why I asked about the quality of the Wood River planes. Domer
I belive the planes are made in India, just to confuse the situation. I have a set but too cold for me out in garage. Just recovering from serious surgery, I know that the plane is more important, but I am a 74 year old wimp.
The workmanship etc, look good, can't hardly wait to get out there and try three months of ideas!!!!.
Carl
Oh my goodness gracious me, man.
Could they then be being made by a subsidiary of Anant? (With Bombay accent)
P.S. Take it easy-three months worth of ideas can cause an explosion.Philip Marcou
Friends,
I have been away for a while. Noticed this thread got long, so I scanned it. Anyone who likes the "Mad Money" TV show with Cramer would love this thread. I did feel a bit sorry for Sean (Samson) who, as always, was only trying to help. I have heard from the Manager of the local Woodcraft store that Wood River is modifying the design of their planes based on initial feedback.
The beat goes on.......... and on......... and on........Can't wait for this thread to hit 5000. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well, that means I'll have to scurry on down and buy another plane...
My Father is a true Master Tool and Die maker (ClassAA) in the new designation. We've often discussed the attributes of foreign tools amongst ourselves, and according to his more than 50 plus years in the tool making industry, it's the finer hand worked details, PRECISE machining and the quality of the raw materials that actually determine performance. How the surfaces mate, are they truly flat, heat treating and subsequent tempering etc. In his opinion, the only people currently making tools that understand this are the western countries, England, USA, France, Canada, Germany etc. Especially America, because they benefited from the merging of all those countries' methods via late 19th century immigration. Asian tools are improving quickly however, because they will buy quality tooling from American machining firms, i.e. Bridgeport; USE it to make a knock off of itself and put that very supplier out of business. Crazy ol' world isn't it? The Wood River planes look good, but he and I both saw twist in the castings that were not allowed to season long enough. That could be flattened though, also Asian blades tend to be overly hard to the point of becoming brittle, because one of the first processes they skimp on is tempering after the blade has been hardened, so it misses the optimum Rc range for its intended use.
The question that was raised was whether the purchase of such planes serves to act as a vote of confidence to the retailers involved (to continue their practice), and what the impact would be on the companies (such as LN and LV) whose designs are stolen (since they are not being compensated in this regard).
If a company such as LN or LV chooses to place their designs into the public domain by opting not to obtain intellectual property protection for them (which in the USA is done by obtaining a Design Patent), then, well, the design is in the public domain, and their use by competitors does not require any type of compensation.
Ford and GM did not compensate Chrysler when they copied the minivan design. In the USA at least, the commerical laws are biased to encourage virgorous, aggressive competition among competitors, in order to provide consumers with the greatest possible choices, and lowest prices.
If seems that LV chooses to patent many of their designs, and it's quite common that competitors have had to cease production of products as a result.
OTOH, it seems that LN has not done so. Of course, LN products are largely based on old public domain designs from Stanley. Since their designs are not novel, they probably cannot obtain patent protection for them. It's always amused me that their so-called "design theft" is somehow considered OK in some quarters, but that of more recent entrants into the market is not.
Edited 3/12/2009 4:49 am by BarryO
"If you want to be famous, be first. If you want to make money, be second."--Bill Gates
I think this quote from John Ruskin applies:
There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.
Bob Lang
http://www.craftsmanplans.com
Well said (or quoted) Bob.
I think that it is important that the readers here make the effort to understand the big picture. Desire and impatience are poor bedfellows.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 3/9/2009 1:42 am ET by derekcohen
Bob,
Great quote...
There are ways to reduce costs without reducing quality. As well some quality reductions don't affect performance. In the end cost is a very poor indicator of performance.
Ultimately the Wood River planes have to stand on there own. I believe this thread was initially about the quality of the planes. Maybe we should start there.
Buster
The quote refers to quality as well as price. So what is the topic here? You need a comparison to evaluate quality, and the obvious comparison with these planes are the ones they resemble so much. You can make a Hyundai look much like a Lexus, and it will get you from point A to point B. In the end it will still be a Hyundai. You can't buy a Lexus at Hyundai prices.Bob Lang
http://www.craftsmanplans.com
Bob
Cost is in some ways an indicator of quality. But it is a poor indicator. As I stated in my post.
The quote refers to quality as well as price.
Yes. That's obvious. But Ruskin has his limits. First Ruskin obviously ignores inefficiencies in the 'system'. Which is what I'm referring to in the first part of my response. 'There are ways to reduce cost without affecting quality.' For instance perhaps they could lap blades by machine.
My second part 'some quality reductions don't affect performance.' Ultimately the quality of plane is in how it performs (and ages), not on how it looks. One could argue the aesthetics of a plane are part of the quality, but lowering the aethetic look of a plane does not change the performance.
Your point about cars is well taken, and probably a little dramatic. Your comparing a New Stanley to a Hotley! The point of a car is to get from point A to point B safely and reliably; everything else is a bonus. I don't drive cars to make a statement, and I don't buy planes to make a statement. If the Wood River compares performance wise to the Lie Nielsen, and at this point we have absolutely no reason to believe it wont, then I may add one to my toolbox.
Buster
Edit: Spellcheck
Edited 3/9/2009 7:13 pm by Buster2000
Speaking as a business owner, cost has very little to do with quality.Retail price, on the other hand, bears no relationship to either cost or quality, except in a doomed business.
Edited 3/9/2009 7:24 pm ET by Jammersix
Leaving politics aside for a moment, how do you, Lang, and Cohen account for all the great woodworking that's been done with very average Stanley and Record planes? The WR range looks as good or better.
Edited 3/9/2009 11:52 am ET by Oilstone
There is nothing wrong with "very average Stanley and Record planes". I use some myself and they are capable of excellent work. As with any tool, they excel in their ideal range. In the case of Stanley/Record (and for that matter any planes with a cutting angle in the 45 degree range), these are planes better suited to soft -moderate hard wood with straight grain. If you stay away from gnarly grained woods, then the planes are less likely to fail.
There is really not much performance gain from a Bed Rock design, per se. What you get is a slightly better frog (but Type 12 and earlier Baileys are just as good), and improved frog adjustment. That is all.
What the LN range offer is improved finish, tighter tolerances, better/more durable materials and a thick blade/cap iron combination that is less likely to chatter. The Wood River planes appear to seek to emulate the LN improvements and will hold onto LN's shirt tail. However only direct comparison will reveal whether they are closer to the Stanley or the LN end of the spectrum.
Regards from Perth
Derek
In light of the existence of L-N, et al. then it's rather difficult to reconcile the Ruskin quote that, on its face, seems quite pithy but in reality really isn't. I'm perfectly happy to let the armchair patent attorneys and Monday Morning Ethicists work out all the other details.The planes look serviceable enough to me.
Edited 3/9/2009 2:18 pm ET by Oilstone
You are attributing assertions to these two gentlemen that they did not make. Neither said that less expensive planes will not plane wood.
You could nail together a house using a stone you picked up from the field, perhaps, but that doesn't mean a well balanced Estwing or Maydole wouldn't be more enjoyable to use and quite possibly do the job more quickly and cleanly.
As was stated above, a Yugo might get you to the grocery story, same as a Lexus, but the quality differences are present and meaningful beyond "getting the job done."
Personally, I dislike knockoffs of any products, with the only exceptions being reproductions of things that are no longer available from the original supplier. Some might argue that knockoffs are also ok when the original item is overpriced for "no good reason" (think LaCoste or Polo shirts where many feel they are being asked to pay for only the brand cache). I don't think LN falls into either of these two categories so it bugs me that these outsourced (cheap labor and no evironmental laws) knock-offs might hurt an innovative company I highly value; LN.
As far as functionality, I was just yesterday using a Stanley 3 I upgraded with a LN blade on some very rippled cherry. It did great. Frankly, my expereince is that after certain minimum structural and machining characteristics are met (examples of brands who fail these prerequisites include modern Stanley, Anant, Groz, etc.) the most important thing is a sharp blade and skilled user. And the blade is the more important than the user by a good stretch.
One reason for the usefulness of the Bailey pattern planes is that users have spent time "tweaking" them--flattening soles, making sure of a close fit between frog and body, and the like. Those things are already done in the LN and LV planes. The Bedrock design offers some advantages in terms of more contact of the frog and bed, as well as generally higher standard of initial machining, hense less time fettling. As an example, all of the Stanley planes benefit from a heavier iron--an obvious modification made with the LN adaptions.
The question about the Wood River planes is going to mostly revolve around how much tweaking will be required to achieve similar performance to the planes that come ready from the box other than a little blade honing. People are going to have to put them through their paces to tell.
It's often a mistake to justify the price of an item by the cost it takes to make it. The characteristics of performance are what matters. Some of those characteristics may well include lux cosmetics, or even desire to favor some workers over others. Consumers in the market place will meld all those factors together in determining their own buying decisions.
The market will function best with the most information, preferably readily available, objective and factual information upon which to make decisions. Each can factor in their own "personal preferences" as to how to weight price vs. performance, versus time spend tweaking, versus how much to give in local patriotism or jingoism (which depends on your view point), But what they can't do is determine the objective factors that make up performance--only hands on after the item has been bought. That's where people who have actual experience can come in, whether because they bought and tried them themselves, or if journalistic sources pick up the testing. What is most needed, in my opinion, is factual information.
As far as the "intellectual property" issues, for me it is hard to imagine, with all the tinkering and invention that went into the development of metal hand planes in the 19th and early 20th centuries there there is much un-tapped intellectual property that isn't already in the public domain. This doesn't include developments related to methods of production, as opposed to the performance of the end products. Remember this includes not just those ideas imbodied in relatively successful products such as Bedrocks, but in those "misses" that didn't quite make the market test and faded after only small-scale commercial production.
Hi Steve
The issue of "intellectual property" is one that I raised on another thread. I don't plan to beat the drum here, but for those that question whether LN has any rights to defend (against the WR planes that seek to emulate their presentation), there is a thread (in the power forum I assume) which is all about the legal actions taken over the colour of machinery sold by various manufacturers, nevermind the actual components.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Oilstone,
Tools facilitate the woodworker, they do not dictate the quality of the work. Good tools make good work easier. That's it. A poor woodworker will produce poor results.
As a hobbyiest a high quality tool increases my enjoyment of the process. I hate tuning tools, and I avoid it. I have limited time in the shop, and I'm not going to waste it lapping the soles of planes.
** Following from my thought it occured to me that a poor quality tool can be limiting to a good woodworker. Though I think a good woodworker can identify this.
buster
I guess I would like someone to say whether the Wood River planes are any good or not. Then let each of us decide the politics of it.
Check the thread on SawMill Creek. There's plenty of details there. The gist as I read it is that the blades are questionable and some details less than refined or durable - an okay middle of the road plane - just as the price point would suggest.
Domer,Sometimes the best thing we can do is take the leap ourselves and deal with the consequences. When it come to ________ (fill it in) people are very brand loyal. Competition isn't seen as healthy, it's seen as an attack. It'll be hard to every get a true answer.Given what I've read Wood River Planes they appear to be good learners. Buster
You go, Buster!The other thing that I've noticed in many different places is that once the check is written, the item improves, particularly in non-essentials.When you pay two grand for a tablesaw, or you buy a regulator, drysuit, handplane, lathe, riding lawnmower, hairdo, or just about anything you want to name, to dis the product is to admit that one, you got ripped off, two, you're a fool for getting ripped off, and three, everyone who tried to tell you so is right.So generally speaking, I don't believe glows-in-the-dark-and-walks-on-water-and-makes-my-wash-whiter-and-my-wife-prettier reviews from someone who paid hard earned money for a product.What's he going to say, that he was WRONG?
Well..., yes. If he has any maturity or anything worth listening to he will freely admit, perhaps with a bit of pain, when he is wrong. Otherwise, move along. I have been wrong, f'd up more times than I can count. I learned something when I admitted it, looked a fool when I didn't. Some call it experience or even wisdom.
But I do agree with your "glow in the dark" sentiment; fits right in with "You've Won!" --> circular file.
Edited 3/10/2009 10:17 am ET by habilis
Friends,
I am at a ski lodge in Big Sky, Montana, and a friend offered to let me use his computer. I need to get back to the slopes, but before I do, I would like to put my two cents worth in here.
I am a big fan of Lie Nielsen planes. I don't care where they are made. They are of sufficiently good quality for me, and I don't need to spend much time fettling them when they arrive. That's nice.
But the best thing about Lie Nielsen planes is that they are FREE, in the life-cycle cost framework. Look at EBAY, LN planes usually sell at from 5 to 10% of current retail prices. Many of them are from years ago. You can sell them for what you paid for them.
I have held Wood River planes but haven't used them. I believe they will be more expensive than Lie Nielsen planes. In other words, if you buy the WR for $125, my guess is that you won't be able to sell it, in excellent condition, for $50, either now or later.
Now some, like Derek, have asked why it matters if you can sell a plane for what you paid for it. Because, why would you sell a plane? The answer is "because I have grown out of it". I sometimes grow out of tools, and would like to get them out of my small shop. If I can buy a tool that I know I can sell anytime for just about what I have in it, I am much more likely to give it a try. And I haven't seen a LN that I don't like.
Lee Valley cannot match the resale values of LN on EBAY. Let us see what happens with Wood River. IF they sell for current full retail, and they don't require much fettling when you buy them, and they work good, they I would buy them over LN because of a lower initial cost. My mind is open. Let's see what happens.
One of the things that made America great was its ability to make things better and cheaper than others could. I admire that in a country (in any country).
One think I really like about Wood River is that it is not trying to add in "useless quality" --- Think Holtey who polishes the undersides of the heads of screws. The inanity in the world of woodworking tools is amazing. LN and LV have all the quality I need. LN has the advantage of full liquidity at almost full price. That is an unsurmountable edge over the competition. But it might not last forever. There is always the possibility that Wood River might catch up in quality, at a lower initial cost, and with a high resale value. If they do, then Good Bye Lie Nielsen.
Gotta go ski. Have fun with the philosophy. This thread almost belongs in the Cafe. They do "Buy American" over there. Heck I even have tools that were made in Australia.
Have fun.
Mel
PS - so far, the Woodcraft store that I work at has not opened up one of the Wood Rivers for us to use. They sell too fast. Can't wait to try one. Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
So, Mel, to what do you attribute the fact that LNs hold their value so well? Is it irrational exuberance on the part of woodworkers? Is it brand fetishism and cache, like Polo, Perrier, and Abercrombie? Status seeking?
I think you know it's none of those things. Nope. It's just good old fashion quality plain and simple. A case of a job well done in creating beautiful, refined, durable tools, that perform extremely well right out of the box. The things are well made out of good materials by a company that stands behind their work 200%. In short they are worth the price, and the market realizes this.
You can't get something for nothing. While we might wish that Wood River had figured out how to make LN quality planes at half the price, such alchemy just ain't possible.
I own both LV and LN planes and I am very satisfied with them. This discussion extols the virtues of both products--and the fact that they are not made in China. But the original question ask about the WR products. Could someone who has purchased a WR plane please address the original question?
Clint
Why are you whining to me? Here, I used Google for you:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=104539
lots of good edge holding details and dial caliper measurements for hand plane afficionados.
Sean,
I keep looking at your messages for something to argue with. Can't find anything.
Just got back from a number of runs down the slopes here. Very nice. Very beautiful. Now it is time to take a shower and get ready for the "Chairman's Banquet."
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
PS - so far, the Woodcraft store that I work at has not opened up one of the Wood Rivers for us to use. They sell too fast.
I figured as much. And if returns are within or below expectation that will have said a lot, I think, about the WR range.
What will it say, do you think? That the products are not outright defective?
That people bought them. And kept them. And presumably use them. The price range screams "user" plane to me.
Edited 3/10/2009 5:32 pm ET by Oilstone
All right, here we go.I've made a Command Decision.I'm not happy with my current Jack.I'm going to buy a Wood River plane, take it down to my shop, and go around with it. I'll sharpen it, plane with it, measure it, turn out the lights and boogie in the dark with it.If there is any hanky-panky, or any higglety-pigglety, I'll find it.Now, by my own words, you can't trust a man who has spent hard-earned money for a product, so I'm suspect in my own mind, which isn't really that different from most days.(This will cause trouble when The Counsel that lives in my head meets-- they're all going to accuse each other of all matter of shenanigans.We are not!Such is the sacrifices I make for The Cause.)I hereby open the floor up to suggestions: what do you want to know about Wood River planes?What do you want checked? What would you do? How would you test it?What is the one thing that I should check (and how should I check it) that would make you either buy a Wood River plane or reject a Wood River plane?I don't know when I'll go buy it-- I'll allow a couple days for suggestions, and perhaps I'll start a new thread.Speak now, or go fondle your L/N silently, and leave us cheap folk in peace.
Edited 3/10/2009 5:59 pm ET by Jammersix
Gosh, how the heck have you gotten into my head?
You sound just like me! I argue with myself constantly about the most inane things, but they matter to me!
Chaim
"Inane? Nothing we do is 'inane'!""We must register our concerted objection to being characterized as considering 'inane' matters!""What does 'inane' mean?""Shut up! The Chair recognizes the gentleman...""The 'CHAIR'? Who died and made you king?""Since when do we have a 'chair'?""Gentlemen! Gentlemen! We must proceed in a more orderly fashion!""Proceed this!""Why?""He called us 'inane'. I don't know what that means, but I don't feel like being orderly.""Did he mean 'insane'? It' just one letter difference.""I'm hungry.""If we don't get some organization in here, I quit!""Quit? Oh, this I've got to see!""You can quit? Why didn't you tell me before this?"
Hi Chaim,I have heard that if there are two Israelis in a room there are likely 3 opinions, so you may be facing a similar thing with just yourself :)FYI: I worked for an Israeli company (Comverse) for over 9 years, and have many good Israeli friends, so this is just meant as a friendly poke in the ribs :)Cheers,
Paul
No offense taken, and being poked is just the ticket to wake you up during the rabbis speech (read sermon for the more polite!)
but seriously, don't we know by now that major manufacturing has left the western world behind!
Without sermonizing... this is a result of our (I include myself) need for cheep goods. You cant just do it with one or two items, its an all or nothing type deal. The truth is this is also a symptom of the worlds "failing" economies and the major cause in the long run is consumerism. Which of course leads us back on the road to china (Bing Crosby movie!)
As bono from U2 sings "if I could I would"
I need more coffee . .
.
W
Chaim
By the way Paul these comments are not aimed at you personally but are meant for everyone to digest (what a bitter pill to swallow)
Charles, do you think people who buy LN planes or Clifton, or Marcou's for that matter, don't use them? Are those planes more for collectors?
I don't understand how these are "users" more than Annat's/Groz etc. on the low end or LN on the higher? User makes sense to me with vintage tools as it means cosmetically imperfect and not attractive to collectors, but functionally, fine. I don't think I get how you are using the term here.
Do you think LN's include quality that is unnecessary to the task? Thereby adding cost that "users" don't need. Is that it?
Here's some info for you all to consider in context -$22 - cost for Woodcraft owner to purchase a Wood River LA block plane and then sell it for $69.99$132 (give or take a few dollars, memory is not so hot sometimes!) - cost for woodcraft owner to purchase LN LA block plane and then sell for $165How about them apples!? I'd say based on the detailed reviews on sawmill creek that the chinese may be on to something here... Ah but it might be hard to admit that as we wouldn't want to give up our spot at the pinnacle of manufacturing!Chris
Here's some info for you all to consider in context -
Like most employees/consumers, you have committed a common fallacy, and any conclusion you base on this data (it is not information, it is merely raw data, if indeed it has any accuracy) will be wildly erroneous.
The fallacy is the mistake of reading only one side of the ledger.
What you have done is roughly like saying "the check is for $12,134.03." or "The first wave at Iwo Jima sustained more than 8,000 casualties."
So?
Taken in the isolation presented, all of the numbers you presented and the numbers I just presented are absolutely useless.
Edited 3/10/2009 10:04 pm ET by Jammersix
What exactly is the other side of the ledger? and what is wrong with raw data? As for the accuracy of the numbers, please feel free to ask Mel to confirm for me. Chris
Edited 3/10/2009 10:19 pm ET by hdgis1
Chris, that's exactly my point-- you are not aware that ledgers have two sides, and that you have only presented one of them.In the case of your numbers, one pair of numbers you presented is commonly called "COGS", which stands for "Cost Of Goods Sold".It is an Expense Account, in an Expense Journal. The other side of the ledger, therefore, would be a Sales Journal, which is an Income Account.Without an accurate balance sheet and a complete profit & loss statement, a single expense number is useless.Take a check example: if I tell you that I've just written a check for $213.00, what accurate conclusion can you draw?None. You don't know if I've made money, lost money, what I bought, if I received it, if it was worth it or even if the check is good.You only have one number from one account in one journal, and you're missing the other side of the ledger to several accounts.Your COGS numbers for Wood River and L.N. planes, even if accurate, are equally without value. If they are accurate, they are merely raw data, and processed information is required for use as the basis for decisions.
Edited 3/10/2009 10:35 pm ET by Jammersix
Thank you for pointing out my lack of knowledge with regards to ledgers. I can sincerely say I feel so much more enlightened now. What the hell does any of that have to do with what I asked? So far it just sounds like so much ethereal cereal! And, by the way, i wasn't asking you to explain, literally, what the other side of the ledger is.... How much of what you are telling me is really relevant to the consumer? Most of us want a quality product at a reasonable price. If someone can contract an item to an over-seas manufacturer and have it made for significantly less than a domestic manufacturer while retaining a level of quality that would please the average consumer then where is the fault? I'd say that in a large part the fault lies with the average american - When did a two week paid vacation and health insurance for the whole family become a constitutional right? The point I was trying to make (and one I feel can be made without an extensive knowledge of ledgers) is that a WR plane (which seems to be well reviewed at sawmill creek) being sold to its retailer for $22 (33% of its final cost in dollars for the consumer) and which exhibits a quality near that of an LN (sold to its retailer for 80% of its final cost in dollars) seems like a pretty damn good deal. Forget about all the nonsense about long term investments and that. Most people aren't buying a tool with the hopes that it (not what it produces) will one day put their kids in college. As for a LN reselling for 80-85% of its initial cost - even if a WR plane only sells for 50% of its original cost your still out $30! That makes a WR plane even a better deal! Hell in the end, they're probably both gonna end up at a yard sale anyway. And for the rest of you, don't respond with any more nonsense about fettling and all of that because how many of us really take an LN out of the box and use it straight away? If you do, then your really coming up short of how well they perform! ChrisP.S. - You can probably figure out what is relevant to your comments and what is directed at the rest of the 'buy american or buy nothing' crowd.
Edited 3/10/2009 11:35 pm ET by hdgis1
You're welcome, Chris.Forgive my uneccessary lecture-- I took you at your word.I saw your point in your first post, and my entire sequence of posts has been about this: none of the numbers you posted support your claim, in any way, by themselves.The rest is arm waving.For the record, we are on the same side-- I believe that the biggest favor an American consumer can do for an American manufacturer is to consistently buy and insist on the best value-per-dollar.American manufacturers come in two forms: those who grow the teeth and claws to survive, and lunch.
Jammersix:I understand that the original point of this thread was lost in the haze long ago, but what in the world was all your ledger babble about? The gross profit on merchandise is very significant. That's all they guy was trying to say. That point stands without any additional balance sheet or income data.
Uhm, no, I don't believe that's what his point was at all.He's stated his point a couple times, a couple different ways.I am amazed at how people read and hear what they're looking for, though, whether they're reading English text or single entries in double entry accounting.Furthermore, you've made my point again: the conclusion that a given margin is significant cannot be reached on the basis of any single number in any ledger. The same fallacy applies.
Edited 3/11/2009 1:47 am ET by Jammersix
This is foolishness. You need to go have a stiff drink or three, take a few deep breaths and relax.Just for fun, though, in nice polite terms, 'splain me why gross margin is not important without seeing the entire set of financial statements with it? In short, why would a given merchant with given overheads be making a mistake to look favorably on a product that earns him a large gross margin as opposed to a very similar product that earns him a smaller one?Please explain it, rather than just asserting my ignorance.Joe
Joe,
Do you know whether these planes were something that someone else came up with and sold to WC, for example, or instead, is this a WC line that WC essentially sponsored (set up the manufacturing etc.)? I ask because I don't think they just passively are attracted to the wholesale price someone else is offering. My guess is that they went out there and created the product and its wholesale price for sale to itself and its franchisees.
No idea. The latter is certainly possible. Once years ago I was a director of a company that sold things completely different from planes. We carried an advertised national brand name product that carried about a 50% markup. We were able to develop a highly similar house brand that was actually of better quality. It was made by the same factory that made the national brand. I negotiated the deal myself, and recall the details well. When customers came in looking for the national brand item, our clerks were trained to produce that item and demonstrate its qualities in an honest and straightforward way. Then they were to ask if the customer had seen the *** brand item. If the customer expressed an interest, the clerk would then bring down and show the house brand item, again honestly and straightforwardly. A significant fraction (but less than 50%) of customers bought the house brand item.Now here is the kicker. We paid roughly $100 per copy for the national brand and sold it for roughly $200. We bought the house brand item for $45.00 and sold it for $175, more or less.We made more actual dollars per sale on each house brand item, and a vastly higher gross margin (more efficient use of inventory investment) and the customer paid less and got better quality.Again -- before the trolls get tuned up about exporting jobs etc. -- they were made IN THE SAME FACTORY. So, whose ox was gored?Joe
The national name brand manufacturer was "gored" to the extent you were free-riding as explained above. You could charge less, at least in part, because you didn't have to develop the product, refine and develop the manufacturing process, advertise the product, and otherwise create and develop the market for the product (go to trade shows, hire lobbiests, court suppliers, etc.).
I'm not saying that your competition in this manner was bad, and as you say, to the extent you made more money and the customers got a (better according to you) product at a cheaper price, both of you were better off. But that came out of someone's hide - the national name brand manufacturer lost sales to you and you rode the national manufactuer's coat tails (he spent and invested, you collected).
TO some extent, that is true, however, it is the essence of good competition. We didn't cheapen the product - rather, we improved it. We didn't steal their brand or try to make one that looked like it -- rather, we prominently displayed our own brand --even had it engraved in two highly visible locations. No one would mistake our item for theirs -- it was not a knock-off or counterfeit. It was merely a substitute.Now consider old tools -- Stanley, Sargent, Miller's Falls,Record -- how many of them had truly unique product offerings? It is even possible? Once the original patent runs out or is engineered around, isn't it a matter of differences in quality and price? Don't we all benefit as a result? Joe
Now consider old tools -- Stanley, Sargent, Miller's Falls,Record -- how many of them had truly unique product offerings? It is even possible? Once the original patent runs out or is engineered around, isn't it a matter of differences in quality and price? Don't we all benefit as a result?
Generics are not bad things at all. Quite the contrary. Patent are of limited duration for a reason. They strike a balance between making innovation financially viable and making products less expensive through competition (e.g., more efficient producers).
The field gets murkier, for me anyway, when we are talking about something like LN resurrecting the quality handplane market. I suppose I have a blind spot here. I'm very thankful to them and want them to be successful and continue to innovate for years to come. I worry that latecomers, like Stanley's new offerings (where are those btw?) and the Wood River "me too only cheaper" stuff might be bad for LN. Suppose they deal LN a 10% hit, and LN wasn't able to endure that over the long term. It would mean less new products and possible even the evntual demise from LN. Do i think Wood River is going to come up with more exotic planes to take up that slack? Nope. They are followers. Not leaders. I hate to see the leader dragged down or forced to compromise its quality in order to compete. Is there a tension in my thinking - absolutely.
Also, there is the alternative scenario where Wood River makes better planes available to more woodworker than would otherwise have taken off down the handplane slippery slope. This might grow the market. These folks might eventually graduate to LN or other better planes after learning their chops in the middle of the road stuff from Wood Rive rand others. I hope it goes like that.
Indeed. You and I are in harmony. Now for the rest of this rowdy bunch...Joe
Do you know whether these planes were something that someone else came up with and sold to WC, for example, or instead, is this a WC line that WC essentially sponsored (set up the manufacturing etc.)? I ask because I don't think they just passively are attracted to the wholesale price someone else is offering. My guess is that they went out there and created the product and its wholesale price for sale to itself and its franchisees.
Hi Sean
I said as much in an earlier post (either here or in a similar thread).
My impression is that there is one factory (based in China - but this in the future be anywhere in the world) that is manufacturing all the planes/tools being sold via a few outlets in the USA and UK. I suspect that someone (representing the factory) got the idea to buy up a few LN and LV tools and copy them (without licence), make a few minor alterations, and sell them to retailers. A couple of these tools are just such obvious direct copies (such as the LV chairmakers scraper and edge trimming plane). Copying without permission is theft.
The question is whether the Manufacturer is more complicit than the Retailer. And then one must ask whether the knowledgable Buyer is any less so as well.
For those here to say that all they care about is the lower price and that all's fair in love and competition, well they are either lacking insight or rationalising away their potential guilt.
What of the future of the small manufacturer, such as LN? Mel remarks that their future simply lies in the hands of "natural selection", as if this absolves the buying public from any part in an outcome. Charles states that the Wood River price is right, and that is all that counts.
I publish designs of tools on my website and offer them free of charge, welcoming all to make them for themselves. Now if some factory decided to manufacture and sell these designs without permission, well I would be most put out. How would you feel? How does LN feel? Why should any small manufacturer - Ron Brese, Steve Knight, C&W, Blue Spruce ... the list is long - take the risk to innovate when all it takes is for some factory to churn out copies at half the price? And then what says the public - "Oh Goody .. I can get it cheaper!".
And you Charles, who says that this is OK, still refuse to post your work here in case your ideas are stolen!
The trouble is that this activity has been going on for years in the power tool area - there are just so many generic designs around. Re-badged and in a different colour. So I find it fascinating that companies are now fighting over the rights to colour.... Jet apparently owns white, Powermatic have gold ...
Regards from Perth
Derek
Blah, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah.
You never met a free plane you didn't like. If you were on the Woodcraft dole you'd be singin' a completely different tune, or at least keeping your mouth closed.
I'd buy a WR plane just to know they don't have to recapture the cost of planes sent to you, gratis, so that you can post a 'review' on the woodworking boards.
Puhfreakinlease.....a lecture about ethics from you. (...)
Editors note: removed insulting language
Edited 3/11/2009 12:20 pm ET by BossCrunk
Derek:I see your point, but suggest that the solution lies in patents and copyrights. Information and designs in the public domain are, well, public. As a matter of fact, both LN and Lee are taking advantage of that fact and using old designs created by other people or designing minor (and usually patented)modifications. None of the metallic plane makers today has Leonard Bailey on the payroll. If nobody could use anyone else's ideas, progress would stop. If someone takes information in the public domain, such as your designs, and makes the designs available to a wider group than otherwise might have had the use of them, shouldn't we celebrate? You are not harmed, as you are generous enough to put them in cyberspace in the first place.Actually, in the USA, the Millennium Copyright Act (largely drafted by a friend of mine, I am sorry to say), goes so far the other way that it is negatively affecting scholarship. There has to be balance. Inventors of original concepts should receive protection from the state, simply so that the economic advantage they then enjoy will benefit the citizenry at large, and not to protect them indefinitely from competition. The lack of such competition would be to the disadvantage of the citizenry at large, and therefore should not be a state goal.Joe
I don't know if you got your answer, but...
If they sell 10:1 LN planes vs. Woodriver then the extra margin made may not justify the equalities in advertising and stocking a Woodriver plane.
I am not suggesting that this is accurate, just giving an example of what he's trying to get at. No representation without taxation
To the original post and moving the emotions aside, I have seen, felt and planed the Wood River block and smoother at my local Woodcraft. Now I am coming from the low end with a Stanley block from Lowes and 2 Groz, smoother and Jack, and the block plane and the Jack plane have always worked well. Certainly better as I tuned and worked with them, with advice from this site, and additions of Hock blades and chip breakers which of course gets very close to the price of the Wood Rivers. My point is that their quality is closer to a LN or LV at prices barely above the much maligned cheap stuff. I think, in my limited experience, they are an amazing value in a hand plane. They look and feel great. Just my opinion...........
mike.......
Excellent information. TO speculate a bit; Stanley says it is coming back into the quality hand tools market. Now Woodcraft has the Wood River offering, which you and others report as being good. That suggests that the market for hand tools is once again large enough to attract genuine competition, which should be good for all buyers and users.Joe
have you seen that new Lee Valley, sports car sleek, block plane. It comes in a normal finish and a beautiful nickel something finish and is gorgeous and is 300.00 something. I love to look at LN brass body planes at Woodcraft. They keep them under lock and key so I've never touched one. They can get close to 400 can't they? And I want everyone that they make but with life's demands I doubt I'll ever acheive that. The Groz, Anants and the Stanley's are all under 100.00. That is a huge gap to me, and these Wood River planes are finished to a very high degree. They are much closer to a LN than a Groz. They are a steal at just over a 100.00 but they are not a LN and they will never replace them. The Wood River planes may just help LN & LV by expanding the market not shrinking it. Again, just my opinion.
mike.............
I have seen them, but like you, I do not own one. However, so long as I have some that do the job, I am content. They are pretty, though...Maybe next year, or when the last child graduates from College...Joe
There has been a lot of discussion in this and other threads about buying foreign manufactured products. For the folks that get all worked up about it, I came across the attached cartoon that seems appropriate.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Geez, Dusty you must have young eyes. Do us old farts a favor and at least tell us what it says!
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
It says something?
Sorry about that. Try this one for size.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Can you explain this further? I don't understand it at all!
T.Z.
The closest I've seen to an objective review is on the Tauntons website. For my money, a hand plane has to work well and be beautiful. Old planes often fit the bill because of the patina and materials (eg old dark rosewood), and the history. It shouldn't matter where the plane is made. A lot of the preceding comments remind me of Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino "would it kill ya to buy American?" The fate of GM appears to suggest that yes, it would. I've been a fan of American tools since I bought a pair of crescent pliers as an apprentice electrician years ago. However, America was built on competition - so compete. Judge the Chinese tools on their merits not whether they are Chinese. With the Aussie dollar climbing against the USD I have to decide whether to go LN or these Chinese "knock-offs - can I get some objective guidance here?
I can only offer my point of view and is only a reflection of my perspective.
I too am a fan of American made tools but today it is next to impossible to find tools that are 100% Made in USA. It seems that many American tools today are made entirely or of components that are quite often manufactured offshore, China being the predominant source. Don't want to get into the politics behind this.
I feel that the steel used (I'm assuming it is made in China as well - this may not be true.) is quite simply inferior to that which was made years ago, both in the USA and abroad. I also feel that this is a major factor in terms of a tools longevity and quality.
As an example, if you purchase replacement parts for automobiles, at least here in America, consumer level parts come in basically two flavors - cheap and expensive. Quite often the cheapies are stamped Made in China and the expensives are Best and are of high quality components.
Another factor seems to be the almighty dollar and the bean counters insatiable appetite for money - read as greed. In some cases there seems to be a total disregard for quality.
And to add to the mix I feel the best tools are made by folks driven by quality as opposed to profit.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Another factor seems to be the almighty dollar and the bean counters insatiable appetite for money - read as greed. In some cases there seems to be a total disregard for quality."
Yes, but it's coming from the consumer end, not the producer end. People think that manufacturers make cheap, low-quality products because the manufacturers figure that they can get away with doing it that way, since people will still buy the stuff. But as often as not, it's the other way around: The manufacturers have to make cheap, low-quality products because people won't buy them otherwise.
I've seen this process in action, on a couple of occasions when new big-box stores have opened in towns where there weren't any previously. Typically, the stores start out by selling a full range of products, at all quality levels. Then, over the next few years, they gradually stop stocking the higher-quality stuff. It's not that the products are no longer available, it's just that no one buys them, so the stores can't afford to keep them in inventory.
-Steve
So, if I understand this correctly, Woodcraft, a dealer for Lie Nielson, purchased Lie Nielson planes which LN delivered to them, in good faith, with the expectation that Woodcraft would hold them in inventory for retail sale. Instead, Woodcraft, so it seems, delivered the plane(s) to a manufacturer in China, so as to have a source of cheap knockoffs that it could sell against Lie Nielson. "Look, these are just as good, see all these features, they are identical to the LN, but for a hundred(s) dollars less money. (Perhaps an 'enterprising' third party came to Woodcraft with these knockoffs, but that doesn't change my opinion by more than a whit.)
How can they (Woodcraft management, if there is any doubt) sleep at night. You can bet I'll think about this before I journey up to Woburn, MA to visit my 'local' Woodcraft outlet.
If I have some fact wrong, I trust I will be corrected.
If in fact, you could prove that Woodcraft gave the planes to a Chinese manufacturer with the orders to copy it, they would be liable to be sued. It is my understanding that Harbor Freight is in court right now for doing exactly that. However, hand planes have been around for over a hundred years and the Lie Nielson's are essentially a copy of the old Stanleys. I doubt very much that Woodcraft did that or would need to as the designs are pretty standard.If someone could prove that they did, they most likely could own a part of Woodcraft. Domer
Got to smile on that one,
Macy's does that all day long with all their designer lines.
Come to think of it we don't manufacture anything in the US except LN tools! And speaking of Planes, Boing out sourced most of their components.
We live in a country that does not protect, aid or defend domestic manufacturing period. It is not only the consumer that is to blame here but the government. Everyone right now is just trying to survive so hello more goods from China.TT
It's an accounting game
"Made in America" means about 75% of the value is generated in America (plus a few other restrictions).
"However, America was built on competition - so compete. Judge the Chinese tools on their merits not whether they are Chinese."
While on the face of it this seems emminently fair, the difficulty is in the details. Most so-called "First World" countries have environmental laws, child-labor laws, safety in the workplace laws and other requirements for manufacturers that many developing countries do not have. And those restrictions add significantly to the price of manufactured goods - it's not just wildly different labor rates.
And if the only barrier to trade between these disparate systems is the shipping cost, then "the water will flow downhill" and the place of manufacture will shift constantly to wherever the lowest cost is. The end result is that the standard of living in developed countries will inevitably fall, and the standard of living in poorer countries will rise.
Eventually, perhaps in a couple of hundred years or so, there will be a nearly uniform set of safety/environmental/labor restrictions the world over, and this equalization will have reached its logical conclusion.
However, the road to that eventual equalization will be extremely rough for the citizens of the developed countries, and the environmental degradation may well be quite severe.
Here is just one example - the US currently places a very high tariff on imported ethanol for fuel from Brazil. The reason this was put in place was the power of farm-state senators that feared that corn-based ethanol would not compete with the sugar-cane based ethanol from Brazil. There has been much criticism of this tariff - some of which is that fuel prices in the US would be considerably lower if we allowed the free importation of ethanol.
However, regardless of whether corn-based ethanol is a good idea, there has been one very good effect of this structure - the incentive to slash and burn the Amazon rainforest for huge fuel plantations is much reduced. That doesn't mean that the Amazon will not be cleared in the next 30 years for these bio-fuel plantations, but it is considerably slower than it otherwise would be. Moreover, higher fuel prices in the US have several good effects - one of which is the development of considerably more efficient automobiles.
The point here is that a world in which everything is solely judged on the final consumer price is not a good one. This is the source for some of us to consider where something is made and how, not just whether we can get something as cheaply as possible.
Edited 6/6/2009 10:40 am ET by dkellernc
Oilstone,
I haven't seen or heard of any of the Wood River planes being returned to the store. One customer called in. I took the call. He couldn't move the knob to lower the blade. I described a few simple things to fix that, and he was happy. That was the only problem I have seen so far. NOW ---- I am not sure who is buying these things. I don't think it is the folks who would usually buy LNs. So their standards might not be so high. I won't be able to tell much until I get to try one.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I'm glad that there is a new offering on the market that seems to be pretty well made (everything's junk when compared to a Holtey, right?) and at a reasonable price that one can just buy when a need is felt. It doesn't have to go on one's Christmas list or 'bucket list.' Need a jack plane? Buy a jack plane. You don't have to wait until your tax refund comes in. The planes, themselves, are not 'gloat-worthy' (could that be the problem?) but then, who brags on a screwdriver? You just pick it up and drive a screw. Screw's in the hole. Good. Next.I hope Woodcraft sells the $hit out of them, and they apparently are. Good on 'em.
Edited 3/11/2009 5:01 pm ET by Oilstone
Charles,
For one so uninterested in tools (of your own admission) you are showing abnormal interest in this WR thing.
Why don't you quit speculating and generally buzzing around, and spring for one?Could we rely on you to come up with a reliable verdict, uninfluenced by the fact that the plane is cheap?
Edited 3/12/2009 1:56 am by philip
Lee Valley cannot match the resale values of LN on EBAY.
Actually Mel, when I did my comparison a few months back (which I was universally ripped for), I found that very few veritas planes ever went up for auction on E-bay. The few that did were sold for comprable prices to LN Tools.
I do believe that your on the right path. Any tool that you can use and sell for almost new value... That's a good deal.
Buster,
You are absolutely right, as always. There are very few LV planes for sale on EBAY. I haven't had any hands on experience with LV planes, but from everything I hear from my friends, the quality is equivalent with LN.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,As a Canadian I just couldn't let that stand... :)For what it's worth I prefer LN to Veritas, at least in the bench plane line.Buster
Buster,
You may be excommunicated from Canada for those thoughts. :-)
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
A bronze LN #4 just traded on ebay for $250, thus negating your idea that they're free. Times change.No representation without taxation
This conversations begs to ask, If I don't have much cash ....and am watching every penny, this site is telling me buy the the most expensive high end American_Canadian made or buy nothing?
Sorry that may work for you guys, but not for the blue collar crowd.
TT,The latest Woodcraft magazine has a review of the Wood River planes. I think the guy who did it was pretty fair. He certainly didn't suck up to Woodcraft. He pointed out that the lever which moves the blade from side to side is made of stamped metal and is weak. I get a lot of questions about the Wood River planes because I work at Woodcraft for 10 hours a week. THey sell fast. That doesn't tell me much, except that people seem to be passing up the new Stanley planes in favor of the Wood Rivers. I wouldn't refer to most of these folks as "sophisticated" woodworkers. From the looks of the planes, they are infinitely better than the Stanleys. I know a couple of folks who checked out the soles of the Wood Rivers and found them to be quite flat. I would flatten them anyway. I hear that the backs of the blades need flattening. A few people said they need more than the Lie Nielsens, but not much more. One person said that the edge didn't hold up well when he first sharpened it, but after he sharpened it a few times, it did hold up well. I have heard, but cannot prove, that Wood River is going to improve the planes based on initial feedback.I have heard that the blade height adjustment mechanism does not work as easily or as well as the Lie Neilsen. But the folks that I know who bought them said that they do not have trouble with it.When you get the Wood River bench planes, the screw that holds down the lever cap and blade is on VERY VERY VERY TIGHT. This is true on all of them that I have checked.I like the Wood River block plane. It is cheap, and looks to be quite nice. The world needs a good $60 block plane and this may be it. The latest Lee Valley block plane comes in at close to $300 when you include shipping. Like you, I am "blue collar", and I think that is more than a bit pricey. Please notice that:
- I did not recommend you buy or not buy anything.
- I do not have much personal experience with the Wood River planes.
- I am passing on information that I got from others, and from a review in a Woodcraft magazine.I hope what I have provided is useful to you.By the way, the big Woodworking show was at Dulles Expo this past weekend. I love to go to those things, and I try not to spend much money. This time I only bought a $25 nail puller, and a $35 wood handplane. The plane is a Mujinfang which is sold by Woodline. You can find them on the web. It is a smoother which is used in the Japanese style in that you pull it toward you. It works like a charm, and it costs less than the tax on the "nice" hand planes. I have read many comments on the Mujingfang planes, and they are quite positive. These planes have ebony bodies. I work at Woodcraft and can't buy a piece of ebony that big for $35. I don't know how those planes can be made that cheaply. I am not a fan of CHEAP TOOLS -- that is tools which cost little because they are poorly made. I like tools that work well and do not cost much. I do believe that you and I are soulmates in that regard.Have fun. Good talking to you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, you wrote:
I like the Wood River block plane. It is cheap, and looks to be quite nice. The world needs a good $60 block plane and this may be it. The latest Lee Valley block plane comes in at close to $300 when you include shipping.
I did a quick search of completed eBay auctions. The first vintage Stanley #4 I came across, a Type 10 or 11 with a Sweetheart blade, in good condition, sold for $28.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bailey-4-Stanley-Plane-Corrugated-Sweetheart-Under-Cap_W0QQitemZ200323352704QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item200323352704&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A13%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
I would suspect that this price is representative.
Woodriver #4 $110
Since you mention Block Planes, here are the available prices (in USD). Note you quoted the most expensive LV/Veritas. There are others you know.
Veritas DX 60 $179
Veritas LA BP $145
Veritas Apron $ 85
Stanley LA $36
LN #102 (iron) $95 ($115 in bronze)
LN LA (adj mouth) $165
Woodriver $70
I work at Woodcraft
Yes, we know.
Just for reference and objectivity.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 3/30/2009 11:31 am ET by derekcohen
Edited 3/30/2009 11:39 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
You provided a lot of good information in addition to what I provided. Together, our responses are more helpful than each one when taken alone. This is one of the many great aspects of this wonderful place, Knots. We can walk tall by standing on each others shoulders to enable all to derive benefits from the collective wisdom of our fellow woodworkers which would not be available if one lived a solitary existence. (((( WOW, how was that for a conglomeration of words? I have been living too close to the politicians in Washington , DC for too long>))Have fun, and keep writing. Your friend from Burke.
Mel
PS I went to the big Woodworking show near Dulles airport last weekend, and Lee Valley had its usual wonderful display of quality tools and knowledgeable people. I got to use their low angle smoother. Wow. Very Very Nice! Now please don't take that for more than it is worth. I only used it on the one piece of available wood with nice grain. They had no gnarly jarrah available! Also, I was not comparing it to anything else such as the Lie Nielsen planes that we sell at Woodcraft. OH, did I mention I work at Woodcraft ? :-) I am serious about how nicely the plane handled.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
-"I work at Woodcraft"--"Yes, we know"I'd add that I just joined this group, and I wouldn't have known 9619 worked at Woodcraft. Maybe he could add it to his signature.
Mel,
I purchased a Wood River #4 a few days ago and, as I promised you earlier, here are my first impressions. Out of the box most everything is in order: lever cap, chipbreaker, and iron are square, sole is flat and square to sides, and you do not need an impact driver to loosen the lever cap screw! The back of the blade was ever-so-slightly concave and took a fair bit of work to flatten. After honing the blade, the plane takes nice paper-thin full width shavings. For $110 I am most pleased, and I have $$ leftover for a LV bevel-up jack! I'm glad that the earlier problems with things out of square have been corrected.
-Jerry
Jerry,
Thank you for letting me know. I am glad to hear that the problems are minor and the performance is good. No sense paying $400 for a tool with the same performance as a tool for $100. I still have not had an opportunity to actually put a Wood River to actual wood, but I have had a few opportunities to play around with a few. The cap screws are coming in at a reasonable degree of tightness, not like they originally came. Let me know if you learn more as you use the plane.And keep makin' masterpieces.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The world needs a good $60 block plane and this may be it.
I have a little GROZ? I got at Woodcraft at half that price (Maybe 1/3?) and works for me and then some. The blade even sharpens better than just OK. OK, so it is a Low Angle but use it on everything in it's class...
AND THEN AGAIN.. I have never used a REALLY GOOD plane....
Buy the way.. Give a Freddie a big HUG from PaPa Will Gerorge! Beautiful child!
Will George,
If the Groz works for you and you like it, then it is fine. No need to compare it with others if you have what you need. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR your nice words about Freddy. You and I share a great love for our kids and their kids. I will give Freddy a hug and tell him that it came from Uncle WillGeorge.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I guess you could pull traditional Chinese planes (such as planes marketed under the brand name Mujingfang). In most cases they are pushed though, just like an oversize spokeshave.
View Image
Chris, Austin, TX---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Gee.. I usually 'pull' my spokeshaves!
And I have nothing against Chinese folks..
My wonderful 'American now from China Girls'..
The one in the middle is just a precious!
DANG! Are not little girls and women something to behold to look at!
Edited 3/30/2009 1:20 pm by WillGeorge
Enjoy them WG! All cutie-pies!
My wife of 29 years and I have three daughters: ages 28, 26 and 9. No sons, but I did have a male beagle that died earlier this year. How does the saying go? A son's a son until he takes a wife, a daughter is a daughter for all of her life!
T.Z.
Chris,
Thank you for the photo and for the wisdom about both pulling and pushing my new plane. I fully agree. I have pulled it and pushed it, and would do so in smoothing a gnarly piece of wood. In general though, because of the shape of the plane, I personally find it more pleasurable to pull than to push (not a big deal, though). The iron sticks up and into your palm when pushing it. When pulling it, it is very comfortable. Is that you in the photo?My new plane does not have a bar through it as the one in the photo does. I have used such planes and have found them just as easy to push as to pull. The fact that they work both ways makes it easier to use them longer in one session.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
No, this is a master papermaker in Lijiang, Yunnan in SW
China. They use these planes to planarize movable letters for printing.
Arrived pretty late at night, just a few minutes before they were closing shop. He was one of the most friendly gentlemen I met. He invited us for tea and introduced us to his colleagues, even asked us if we wanted to have dinner with them. We spent about two hours drinking tea and chatting. Unfortunately the carpenters were gone for the day and I had to leave early the next morning.
I have found the Chinese people (whatever that means) to be extremely friendly towards laowai. An elementary school teacher in a small village in a remote province asked me detailed questions about Dale Carnegie's book (which I of course could not answer); during an overnight train ride a student engaged us in detailed discussions on the role of the service sector vs. manufacturing---I learned a lot during the conversation.
The Chinese are extremely curious about everything foreign, in particular US American. They have some exceptional galoots who produce
outstanding pieces of furniture. I am surprised, in fact quite embarrassed, about some of the comments that some of my countrymen voiced during this thread. On one had I believe that Chinese galoots could contribute significantly to this forum on the other hand I hope they will never read some of the statements that have been made during the course of this thread.
Chris, Austin, TX on route to Houston, TX---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Edited 3/30/2009 11:10 pm by chscholz
Chris,
Great post. Very interesting info about the people you met in China. My guess is that they are human, just like we are. Pants go on one leg at a time. Glad you had a good time there and learned a lot. I was very impressed with the furniture in the photos on the website you had a pointer to. Maybe we need to find some Chinese woodworkers who speak English and see if we can get them on Knots so they can join in on the discussions and speak for themselves. Oh well, that is a nice thought. Thanks for posting that very poignant message.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, your exactly right. I can afford to touch on a smigin of the some of the better tools, but my income forces me to always look for value.
A few years back,we have a very rich acquaintance living in Chappaqua, NY. She was having a small room painted and it was costing something like $2,800. The painter was French, he had just painted the fence post or something for the Clintons. she talked for 45 minutes, explaining how he was the very best money could buy, he selected his clients and there was a waiting list.......I walked away believing if there is something you want to buy, there is someone there that will charge you whatever you are willing to pay.
I am careful on what I buy and am delighted how well my varied purchases seem to work together.
Have a good day Mel,
TT
TT,
I enjoyed your messages to me and to Walnutz. Your approach to tools and mine are identical. But my ideas about America and products made in China may be a bit different than yours. I see a bright side to all of this stuff being made in China. Much of it is dreamed up,and designed here in the US, and only fabricated in China. I have heard that some of the big manufacturers in China are partnerships with US firms. So maybe we have given up on "manufacturing" but here in the good ol US of A, we continue to be innovators and designers and entrepreneurs. THAT IS NOT SUCH A BAD THING. When I was young, I had a few jobs in manufacturing. That was enough to make me think hard about getting an education so I didn't have to do that forever. I fully agree with your statement that here in the US, many of us are are hooked on "consuming". Indeed we are consumed by consuming. It is not limited to the US. Look at the international group of woodworkers here on Knots. Many push for high priced planes and other tools, and look down their noses at lower priced tools. I personally don't see any intellectual content in the push to buy expensive stuff. IT is far more intellectually exciting to be able to find and see quality tools regardless of their cost. There are many sales of top quality tools which include: EBay, Craig's list, sales of tools by woodworkers who have passed on, etc etc etc. Also, while others bemoan the possibility that China may turn out some good quality tools, I look upon it as inevitable. Lee Valley just came out with a block plane that costs about $300 when shipping is included. I believe they would have been much "farther thinking" if they put their management, design and engineering expertise in reducing the cost of good tools rather than on tools with even higher prices when existing tools are plenty good enough.It is an interesting topic. Keep posting. I enjoy your thoughts.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
One the one hand, you speak positively about the world economy, and foreign production of inexpensive products, along with the trend in our country towards innovation, entrepeneurship, and design. All geared towards and fueled by consumption and continued purchases of all those new designs and cheap products.
On the other hand, you try to denigrate the very consumerism that a world economy depends upon, with your statement about international woodworkers chasing after the newer and better higher priced tools.
Am I the only one confused, or are you? It seems to me that my dad's theory, "I'm poor. I can't afford to buy cheap tools," applies here. Further, or more broadly speaking, I have felt for some time that the purchase of goods of greater durability, while initially of greater cost, actually are more economical in the long run by not needing replacement (further consumption of materials) as often. Custom made furniture fits neatly into my theory, but that I am sure, is mere coincidence. The drawback to my theory is that it does not lend itself readily to multinational conglomerates chasing their own throwaway tails, nor to our national superiotity complex. We in the u.s. are all too good to do those factory jobs, or will be after our prez gives us all a college degree.
Now, I clearly see that I am among the numbers of those who, like the pitsawyers of yore, or the blacksmiths and buggy whip makers, decried the advent of a new order and its displacement of hordes of newly irrelevant workers. I wish I were more optimistic about the convulsions I see coming. On the one hand there is the green, conservationist (not conservative) climate change, socially aware world order, which is to be be upheld by the proceeds from a global consumer economy riding on the backs of 3rd world workers.. All in the milieu of a global economic meltdown. EEEEYAHHhh
Ray
Ray,
I don't see any difference in our views. I thought I made clear that I am for good quality tools at a reasonable price. I never said that I am for poor tools at a cheap price. I am with your Dad. I can't afford to buy poor quality tools, but I can afford to buy good tools at a reasonable price.I like the old America, in which competition reigned. We pushed hard on improved quality at a cheaper price, or equal quality at a cheaper price. WHAT WAS THE BOSTON TEA PARTY about? THose high prices and taxes from England. I have reserved judgement on the Wood Rivers until I get a chance to use them myself. If the price is low and the quality is low, then they are not a good thing to buy.Do we really differ on this? Are you saying that you want to pay high prices for good quality rather than lower prices for the same high quality? I really want to hear from you on this, because I thought I was clear, but maybe I wasn't.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"WHAT WAS THE BOSTON TEA PARTY about? THose high prices and taxes from England."
Not exactly. The Tea Act actually made the price of imported tea cheaper. It was more a reaction to England giving the East India company a monopoly, as I understand it.
Aw Mel,
I told you I was confused. Now you want me to tell you how you and I differ? I am confused, you are not. There, glad we can settle that. haha
My fuzzy point was regarding my perception that the global economic model has as a requirement, the practice of what is popularly called consumerism, or the throwaway society. That is to say that the wheels of global commerce must be continually greased by the demand for ever more, more, more of whatever is sliding down the trough, accompanied by less and less connection and (responsibility) to the community. Opposing this, is my admittedly outdated, stagnant view of, lets call it a community economy, where one looks within one's neighborhood for the necessities of life, combined with the benefits of social networking.
It all begins with economies of scale, wherein a small mfr of good quality say hand planes ( lets call 'im Stanley) for a limited clientele can justify expanding his factory and purchasing more productive, technologically advanced equipment only by expanding his market. In the course of so doing, he realises that business will be even easier if his competitor (Bailey) in the next town is absorbed into the corporation. Even better is the idea that buyers of planes will want to buy other tools, saws, hammers, rules, so that the corporation ought to merge with makers of those items as well. The company that does not grow, dies. Eventually, there is a global conglomerate that has absorbed, or driven out of business his competitors, and is producing a line which has as its only means of growing market share, growing the market, ie lowering the price. Next, or co-incidental, is programmed-in obsolescence, new "improved" models that can, no must, be thrown away to make room for the next generation of...schlock. But, wait! There's MORE!!
The community model might be described as one where in lieu of ever expanding markets, there is an expanding generalisation within a fixed market. That is, the maker of hand planes finds that his irons are so well tempered and soles so durable, the market for hand planes is soon satisfied in his area, so he makes spokeshaves too, and chisels. He sharpens scissors for the neighbor housewives, and repairs broken shovels, and is the go-to guy for kids who need a new handle on their red wagons, or want the handlebars straightened on their bike. No fortunes to be made, no stock options for corporate board members, no derivitives from which 401k's are puffed up, just stability within the community.
Kum ba ya, I know. But who is of the most value to a community, when the stock bubble has burst, the mfrs shipping company is bankrupt, credit from the bank is unavailable, and the flow of sorta good quality but inexpensive goods ceases to fill the shelves of the megastore?
No turning back to the days of yore, I know that. (Unless the current economic tailspin really goes Grapes of Wrath) But read Sturt's The Wheelwright's Shop. With the hardships endured by his workmen, the long days, poor working conditions, all that, there is something lost in the inevitable advance of Progress, that our increased purchasing power has not replaced.
Ray
Ray,
Greed mebbe?
Unquenchable thirst for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$? Sooner or later sumpin's gotta give.
That and we're now a Global economy which is a new concept not readily understood by decision makers.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Joe Heller
True story, Word of Honor: Joseph Heller, an important and funny writer now dead, and I were at a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island. <!----><!----><!----><!----><!---->
I said, "Joe, how does it make you feel to know that our host only yesterday may have made more money than your novel 'Catch-22' has earned in its entire history?" And Joe said, "I've got something he can never have." And I said, "What on earth could that be, Joe?" And Joe said, "The knowledge that I've got enough." Not bad! Rest in peace!"
--Kurt Vonnegut
The New Yorker, May 16th, 2005<!----><!----><!---->
Ray,
You are truly a philosopher-economist-visionary. You have a dream! A dream of how mankind can build a better way of life, based on an inherent understanding of the difference between "need" and "want". A dream in which a person can go to a restaurant and be served a massive 6000 calorie meal of wonderfully delicious food, and only eat 1000 calories worth of food, turn down the wine, and wash down his vittles with a nice glass of water from the tap -- a world in which one takes according to his needs and gives according to his capabilities. There is a difference between you and me, and now I see it. You dream about what can be. My meager mind is more limited by the reality of the nature of man (and woman, who is infinitely more interesting).You and I are similar in that we look at tools as a means toward an end, and not an end in themselves. But now let's change the subject and look at the furniture you make and the furniture that I make. NOW I SEE A DIFFERENCE. While you talk about consumerism with regard to tools, and you eschew expensive Holteys etc, you emulate Holtey in the type of furniture you build. Most people do not need a Chippendale highboy to house their underwear and socks. You build furniture of high complexity, beauty and sturdiness. This furniture takes a very high level of skill to build and many hours to build. Thus your furniture tends to cost more than that of IKEA. So are you saying that people should just buy at IKEA, and eschew your finely made and expensive furniture? After all, you are talking about a consumerism in which people seem to need to spend more and more. Why should people buy your furniture when the IKEA stuff will do just fine, and would cost less?Well, there you and I disagree. I believe that folks should have a variety of types of furniture to choose between. If they have a hankering for a nice Chippendale Highboy, and the ability to pay for it, they should be able to go to you and commission one. If a person has a hankering for a nice Marcou, and the ability to pay for one, they should have the opportunity to buy one. If that is consumerism, then I am in favor of it. A am in favor of diversity. I cannot afford a Chippendale Highboy or a Marcou, so I make do with what I have, and I am quite happy with what I have. Does that make me an anti-consumerist?So what about you? Suppose you decide that you want people to be able to buy nice Chippendale and Queen Anne furniture but you would like middle class folks to be able to afford it, and you are going to find a way to make that happen. So you meet a man named Wang Chung, who has a factory in China, and he has workers who would love for you to teach them how to make fine furniture. In six years, they are capable of doing some nice work -- not as good as yours, but pretty good. Now PINE INTERGALACTIC FURNITURE COMPANY is selling it's fine furniture for less than $1000 per piece. Many more folks can afford it now, and many are buying it. THis furniture is of MUCH higher quality and beauty than they used to have and they are thrilled to have it. The furniture is a few steps below what you could personally make, but now millions of folks buy it. You have changed the world. You have increased the skill levels, happiness, self worth, and income of thousands of Chinese who make the stuff, and hundreds of folks throughout the world who market it, sell it, and who offer an annual cleaning and waxing service for the furniture. THE WORLD IS NOW A BETTER PLACE.Did I screw up somewhere in my thinking, Ray? Are you saying that you shouldn't be allowed to become a conglomerate if you want to, and sell your furniture through WalMart, and thereby increase the level of goodness of the items that Walmart sells? By the way, you and your lovely wife now have homes in seven countries, and you are a philanthropist who is building woodworking schools in third world countries all over the globe. You, Bill Gates, Ted Turner Rob Lee and Derek Cohen play golf every week.Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
We seem to be talking past one another. I'm sure that with a bottle of bourbon between us, we could work past that; it's harder on this forum.
The problem I have with Wal-mart furniture and its ilk is not the price- it's the fact that it is made to fall apart in a non-repairable way so the owner will come back to wal-mart and buy more, the sooner the better.
Not all the furniture I build is fancy, highly carved stuff. I build what my customers ask for, and repair what they bring me. Tomorrow I am going to look at a couple of old church pews that a potential customer wants me to cut down. Not exactly acanthus carving, but it will fill a need for him- a 106" bench will not fit on his porch, but a 62" one will. Who else will he go to, to have this kind of work done? (Not me specifically, but a local craftsman, I mean) Wal-mart? Ikea? Send it overseas to Wang Chung? And yet, when I cannot get enough work to stay busy in my shop, and close up the doors, all that will be left for my customer, is a trip to the landfill with those pews, and a trip to Wal-mart for one of Wang Chung's benches, which will fall to pieces the third time the weather changes. This is not unlike the styrofoam and paper that fills the trashcans at Mickey-D's, Consume and throw away. That is the consumerism I am talking about.
Those people who buy a marcou plane, (or one of my pieces) aren't in my opinion succumbing to consumerism, in the sense of wantonly using up commodities. They aren't likely to discard these purchses for another, better item in a few years or sooner, the way that purchasers of Anant or Kunz planes are apt to do, when their buyer's remorse overwhelms them, leaving the first one on the curb, and moving up to first a new Stanley, then a L-N in the quest for functionality but only at the best price. Buying a "boutique" tool, or a custom piece of furniture may be an example of conspicuous consumption (I think that is the kind of consumerism you are talking about), but the materials consumed in their manufacture are generally not discarded after a short time in favor of newer and better items, in the latest style.
I am old enough to not be a dreamer, or to want to try and prevent others from living their dreams. Nor to try and hold back, or reverse progress. What I was trying to point out is that with the gains of a global economy you see, are some losses at the local level that are apparent to me.
Ray
Ray,
I understand. I didn't realize that those who buy one of your nice pieces or a marcou would "move on" after a while. I look at both as Museum Pieces. Oh well, I am worried about something else -- that my daughter's great grand children will be angry with me. Of course, I won't be there for them to yell at.Here is what I see as the problem. I have given Amy and Christian a house full of furniture, some of which I have made but most of which I have bought for $0 to $100 apiece, carted home in boxes and bags, and completely taken apart and refurbished. Amy and Christian are thrilled with this stuff, which dates from 1840 to 1930 (or thereabouts). It all works perfectly, and is nice to look at (if you like late Victorian and Art Deco (I mean Art Nouveau). I am fairly sure that this furniture, which has lasted about a century already, will last another century. Then one of Amy's descendants will say, "This is an old piece of furniture. Let's take it to Antiques Roadshow." Then the weeping and nashing of teeth will occur. A pair of twins (descendants of the pair we know) will look at the stuff and say, "OH NO! HEAVENS TO BETSY! This stuff would be worth $300,000,000 if only someone had not:
- stripped it,
- reinforced it,
- refinished it unauthentically with polyurathane,
- etc.Now your furniture is worthless, even though it may well serve the next three generations as useful and nice looking, practical furniture. Then my great great grandchildren will rise up in anger, wondering why I didn't just wash the pieces gently with soapy water, pray over them that the pieces would reglue themselves with the original type of glue, and pass on repairs of drawer runners, etc. Of course, if I had done that, a few generations of folks would not have had this furniture to use comfortably. So, I take this ocassion to apologize to my descendants for screwing them out of $300,000,000.67 (approximately).Please note that all of the furniture that I refurbished and gave them was mass produced stuff, which was not of the highest quality made at the time. Some of it was quite mediocre in quality when made, but is much better now. I suppose a rabid consumerist would have pitched the stuff, and bought new at WalMart. Not my style. I do wish that I had been born wealthy or married rich, or become a Wall Street banker who retired before the current scandals. If that had happened, my house would be filled with furniture that you made, along with a few pieces from Rob Millard, Patrick Edwards, Richard Jones and David Savage. As you know, my tastes are rather eclectic, but I do like quality. By the way, I would have an Eames chair too. One does have to relax. I would also keep Philip and Mike working full time. (oops, Mike is already working full time plus).Have fun. I am still working on winning the lottery, so I may be able to afford some good stuff soon. Of course, at the rate I am progressing on becoming rich, I will learn how to make the good stuff before I will be able to buy it. :-)Kum buy ya,
Mel
PS remember that Chippendale stole a lot of his ideas from the Chinese. It is time for us to start paying the Chinese back Tommy's crime.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ray,
"....lets call it a community economy, where one looks within one's neighborhood for the necessities of life, combined with the benefits of social networking".
Mine Gott! You are a closet fabianista!!! Well, I always suspected so. Better give yourself up now to The Committee of Ayn & Joe, who will have you deported to, to, to.... (can't think of any commie countries that are left; in fact, of any there ever really were s they all seemed to be dictatorships; but I digress).
*****
Your description of the situation does contain a basic truth about globalisation and the capitalism of conspicuous consumption. If you get a chance, take a viewing of Adam Curtis' 4 part documentary entitled The Century of The Self, which describes amongst other things how American capitalism of the 1920s realised the need for a market that reiterated it's demands for their products and so invented modern advertising and the associated economy of obsolescence.
As you know, this model achieved dominance in the America of the 1950s and eventually took over the economic culture of most nations on earth (one way or another). The unfortunate thing for the USA is that it's moved from Chief Exploiter-Producer to the lowly status of Large Consumer In Debt, in only a few decades.
***
It's one thing to realise (some of) the consequences of one's culture and economy but entirely another to affect changes to them. Governments, Fiinance-Men and a whole host of consultants will tell you they have control mechanisms, predictive economy mathematics, social remedies, etcetera, etcetera. This is all bunkum as we cannot predict the chaotic future and for every lever of socio-economic control pulled there are 999 unintended consequences compared to the intended one (which gets overwhelmed).
Me, I'm a stoic. Go with the flow. Sometimes this means going over a waterfall, in a barrel or just nekkid and flailing. Still, as you say, at least a woodworker can make something to sit on or even a canoe. I wouldn't hold out too much hope for the survival of a local community of rich customers, though but. Modern folk don't really do community, as they are all Individuals and model themselves on Clint or some other cowboy. :-)
Still, we must try. My own tiny contribution is to live on a pension whilst acquiring free wood, making stuff and giving most of it away. This will undermine that accountant's preferred model, I tell myself. Ah ha - this is pure self-deception and only serves to assuage my own slight fabianista tendencies.
Lataxe, hoping his little island of calm and well-being will survive for a while yet.
Friend Lataxe,
Fabianist! Oh dear! I had to look that up. Back in the days of my youth, there was a right-wing commentator, sort of the 60's equivalent of our Rush Limbaugh today. One of his debators said to him, "You are so far Right, you're Left!" His reply, "No, I'm so far Right, I'm right."
If you have read Ms Rand's Atlas Shrugged, what was John Galt's utopian community in the mountains if not what I described? I don't see today's economic difficulties so much as the inevitable end result of what capitalism must become, as the excesses of capitalism projected to their utmost. Any system, capitalism no exception, must have its checks and balances, else like a clock without an escapement, it runs amok, and the weights that propel it smash thru the floor...So has self-interest been allowed to spin into outright greed, and Those in Charge are frantically trying to apply the brakes without breaking the chains that suspend the whole apparatus.
The problem with that wonderful global economy that no-one wants to admit of is the one you very astutely pointed out: it is so complex that there is no predicting where it is going, or what will be its outcome. Rather like the global weather, where I've read, a butterfly's wingstrokes in South America can precipitate a cascade of events that turn into a typhoon in SE Asia. No problem if you are the butterfly, or even if you are a weather forecaster-- in Brazil.
I like that stoic thing you have going. Must try it more myself. Have you read The Letters of Seneca, that Roman fellow? Good stuff.
Think globally, act locally, said one of those hippy types back in the turn on tune in and drop out days. After all, that is the best policy, ain't it? Just have a big stick of that free wood handy when the global food supply is arrested, and the ravening hordes come from inner London into the Shire of Galgate, looking to take what's growing in your little garden plot and shove it into their hungry gobs. I'll be greatly surprised if the outcome of this spasm is all of us arm in arm, singing "We are the World."
Ray
Ray,
"Any system, capitalism no exception, must have its checks and balances.........Those in Charge are frantically trying to apply the brakes without breaking the chains that suspend the whole apparatus".
Well, I fear it is probably not a good way to think of capitalism (or any other major ideology or memeplex) as a system or apparatus. This implies (as you reveal with your clock analogy) that there are a set of brakes, levers, regulators and that they serve to make predictable changes to some kind of well-defined and understood mechanism.
Chaotically-behaved entities are not system-like and aren't predictable. The inabiity to predict is not due to our ignorance of the maths but rather to the nature of the maths themselves. No matter how closely one measures all the conditions of such an entity at any moment, it is not possible to extrapolate its future behaviour.
But, as you mention, it is possible to "think global and act local". This doesn't allow control of the global but at least gives one a better chance of making better descisions concerning those small local matters that one might affect. The general answer is: build in failsafes and flexibility to local decisions to acknowledge global unpredictability. Or maybe: find niches that avoid the major swirls and eddies of the large chaotic global river of events.
So, Wood River plane marketing (along with a million and one other events) are really beyond our control - no point railing agin them. However, we can still make a local decision about whether to buy one or not ourselves. One might even "decide locally" to sermonise others concerning the rightness of our own decision; but this, like all such would-be "controls" offered into that chaos out there beyond our own skin, might well stimulate more purchases of such items than less. (No such thing as bad publicity).
As you said elsewhere, one local strategy is to make buying decisions based on a model other than the consumerism of obsolescence. I try to buy not just tools but everything from the ever-smaller pool of things that are made-to-last.
I don't do fashion - in clothes, decor, furnishings or most any other of things-that-can-be-bought. Children laugh and point at my garb whilst Mrs Jones across the road sneers at my lack of new house-bits. Whadda I care? I get to make my local decision whilst she has a gang of capitalist men tugging her about by her nose ring.
Lataxe, not for nose-ringery.
Lataxe,
I must point out your self-delusion in that "don't care for fashion" bit. I've seen a pic of yourself in that spandex pedal-pushing get-up.
Best,
Ray
"I've seen a pic of yourself in that spandex pedal-pushing get-up."Thanks, Ray, it'll take me the rest of the day to get that image (imagined tho' it may be) out of my head.........Rich
I agree. Once was enough. Not as bad as the bathing suit though.
Lataxe, roasting slowly over an open fire!!!
W,
Roast lataxe - Mmmmmmmm!
Now, it just so happens that I went to the gymnasium upon the velocette this morning. I dragged oot a pair of the lycra shots not seen for a while, as they lay buried in a wardrobe. On donning said garment (now some 15 years old or more) I noticed a certain sag in the erse-end and a flapping around the knees. Lawd! That lycra has delycra-ated!!
These shorts are of an olden design (were when I bought them in the sale all those years ago). But I must replenish the short-stock with some properly tight-fitting and aerodynamic ones, possibly emblazoned with the colourful designs of the latest Giro D'Italia winning team.
Ha! A fashion victim after all. Ray will be pleased with hisself, the auld [expletive deleted].
Lataxe, a sartorial treat for all wimminkind.
Lataxe, if I still looked like that swimming suit shot, I wouldn't own any shirts. I'd set my own trends, although I imagine the heating bills would go up a little.
A velocette?? That was a Motorcycle of note...(But then there was also that French thing called the Velo Solex- the nightmare of all school boys).
And: where are the pictures of this sartorial treat?
And: are you attending to your Google mailbox?Philip Marcou
Philip,
Perhaps I meant "velociapede".
Velocettes of the single pot, fishtail exhaust pipe variety do pass the hoosey now and then, going "pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-BANG-pop-pop". We seem to be on a backlane route for olde phart motorcyclist runs. Any day now I expect to see an Injun burping by with a particularly decrepid example aboard.
I cannot shock either you or the Jammer lad with nood pics of my startling personage, as the Jampot demands. What would Mrs Taunton say, eh, eh? One day I may post a pic demonstrating my garb de cicle but you will all feel inadequate and have to go to the gym every day for months and months, to catch up. :-)
The Google post box awaits my attention, with only 79 messages requiring a reply of over 1000 words. I will move your post to the top. However, since we are here chatting just now I will mention the awful "price" word as well as the concept "installments".
Lataxe, who has just spent the day walking up and down Catsycam with his ladywife.
In defense of the cheepies.Nothing to do with the whole trade/patent stuff.I have many planes. Less than some. About 25-30. Junk Stanley blocks for $.50 at yard sales. My Fathers/Grandfathers Stanley 4 - a go-to. Some craftsman built (as in older woodworkers long dead) spokers, beaders etc. #1 thru #8 benchers. Hand built wood smoothers/ jointers (Hockers). Some Japanese pullers.
LNs- many. A 4.5 bronze bought for the weight. Much heavier than the steel ones. Last year. Yes, Tom had some and may still have one or two left. It wasn't listed - you have to ask. I bought it as a user and don't care a wit about it's resale value. I won't be selling it. He may also bring back the bronze miter.
Some LVs. A great pre-war Stanley #5 used by a retired carpenter friend. It is also a first go-to. Sweet plane.
All users.
Yada Yada.A #7 Record. Highland hardware - bout 10 years ago. Plastic tote/knob. About $80.00.
One small high spot on sole, dead flat otherwise. dead flat mating surfaces frog to plane and frog to blade, little backlash.
Put wood handles on it, Clifton blade set up honed to 8000 with a slight camber, 10 minutes to flatten high spot. (no light with a Starrett edge in both directions which is close enough for me - it's only wood).
Now it's my go to for jointing, springing, and initial flattening cutting an easy .0001 if I set it up for that. 30 seconds to touch up a length vs. the total noise, dust, knife marks and hassle of firing up the jointer . Will match the cut on my smoothers (with 45 frogs). Fits my needs when I need a plane of that weight and style.
May have been aberrant in manufacture built pre " hand plane mania", but I think it is as good in quality of cut as whatever else was out there at the time, other than maybe LNs, LVs. ####lot of people swear by Cliffys.I repeat, 80 bucks. Cheap.I agree with Sarge about the Anants.I buy tools for hard use to do a specific task. If the price is reasonable to do what I need done, then that is the price. Cheap or expensive, if it can be made to work without much effort, your ahead of the game.No bright and shiny, no Brinksmanship, just do.
Bright and shiny is fun but do is better.All that counts is where the metal splits the fiber. The rest is non-productive. Fun to talk about but non-productive.In another vein I think it strange that these discussions jump all around custom metals planes, new- old "Hollows and Rounds" , handmade wood "Hockers" but shy away from some of the great old ECE and Primus etc. style planes. Seems like a unspoken prejudice. Well, maybe not prejudice but perhaps ignorance. Frank Klausz seems to like'em. I'm sure others here have them also. It might be enlightening to talk about their tuning and care. Just some thoughts. ramble ramble rambleBoiler
Good post. ECE still makes a plain wedged plane. Super comfortable to use owing to the front horn which has not been improved upon IMO, certainly not by the ubiquitous round knob or other wood planes with nowhere to put your off hand at all (I'll never understand the evolution of that design).
All of today's wood planemakers get ooohhed and aaaahhhhed over while ECE has been quietly providing simple wood planes for decades without a lot of fanfare, and more importantly without the super high "I'm a tortured genius, blah, blah, blah" pricing scheme.
Edited 4/3/2009 5:10 pm ET by Oilstone
"pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-BANG-pop-pop" A Harley with a blown Piston!
Will,
Yeah, or a John Deere tractor hitting a mud puddle.
Ray
Lataxe, who has just spent the day walking up and down Catsycam with his ladywife...
A day WELL SPENT TOGETHER. I sure hope you two did NOT talk about wood!
L,
"walking up and down Catsycam"
Hope that is nowhere near Cataclysm.
Ray
Ray,
It's Catstye Cam (I missed out the "t") - a large breast-shaped fell of 890 metres above sea level, situated in the English Lake District above Ulleswater (a lake). Some maps run the words into one - Catstycam.
The "cat" part is probably because it was once the route of wildcats, which are now banished only to the remote parts of Scotland. Another Lakeland fell not too far away is called Cat Bells, which means "haunt of the wildcat".
"Sty" usually means a crossable barrier, as in a style. When found in fell names it usually signifies that a path crosses the top en route to another signficant place. The other significant place here is probaby Helvellyn, a very large and famous fell that rears up above Catstycam and is connected to it by a precarious steeply-ascending ridge of rock hanging in the sky - Swirral Edge.
The "cam" refers to the shape - a mountain with convex sides (breast-like) and an assymetrical shape (like the cam on a camshaft). If the mountain's shape is more straight or even concave-sided, with a pointy summit, it's generally called a pike.
When I've got the pickshers downloaded I'll post one or two.
Whaddyamean, this is a woodworking site!? I hereby designate it a temporary fell-walking site, in this corner at least.
Lataxe
Edited 4/5/2009 6:11 am ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,I have always understood your definition of stile as the more accurate and traditional one.
<<"Sty" usually means a crossable barrier, as in a style. When found in fell names it usually signifies that a path crosses the top en route to another significant place".>>
Almost universally seen as a horizontal member or step.Early in my woody life the whole of "rails and stiles" as to which was what and why caused me consternation. With the woodworking definitions of rails and styles, I would imagine crossing a stone wall in the country side more of a pole vault or something to do with May poles rather than simple steps. Which makes this one wonder how the etymology of stile has changed to the opposite axis - in many case. to become the vertical member of a frame and panel door. In wood working, banister staircase hand rails are horizontal as they are in in frame doors. Is it that being the tenoned or tie piece, the male unit, the rail? The stile being the opposite receiving piece. Then why in banister and hand rails are they not called "hand stiles" as they are the mortised ones? Is the stile simply as many perceive in wood working, the vertical one, or even defined as that piece that would have the greatest receiving area for expansion?These ambiguities of definition have not changed my life but it would be interesting to see some explanations.
It has always been a wonderment. Perhaps others have thoughts.Don't get me started on muntons. In transit doors, short stiles are called mutons, but in cabinet doors, vertical and horizontal panel or light dividers are called muntons.Muntons make me mutter.Back to watching the Oregon sky for North Korean space debris made from Wood River factory rejects.Churning it up on the bay
BB
BB,
Perhaps the "root meaning" of sty is something like "sticks up" or "an upright thang". That's a complete guess but it might explain "stile" being the vertical (sticky-up) member of a frame....?
But then whence does pigsty come frae!?
A stye (of the eye) is a sticky-up thing - in more ways than one. :-)
Lataxe
Edit: I found this:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=sty&searchmode=term
Edited 4/5/2009 1:46 pm ET by Lataxe
Lataxe, what I want to know is this.What is the difference between an engine and a motor?
To me, an engine runs on fuel, a motor is electric.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Which doesn't explain "Motor City" or "outboard motor"...
Edited 4/6/2009 3:10 am by Jammersix
Chris,
I agree.
But, my motorcycle runs on gasoline...
haha
Ray
Jammer,
Motor - provider of motive power.
Engine: user of motive power, for a (set of) specific purpose(s).
Lataxe, who incorporates biological and memetic versions of both devices within his personage, kindly provided by Mrs Evolution or Mother Nature as she is oftimes referred to.
You mean like a V-8 engine?
"In transit doors, short stiles are called mutons, but in cabinet doors, vertical and horizontal panel or light dividers are called muntons."
Don't you mean muntins and mullions? I've never heard of mutons and muntons, but mullions are a part of glazed doors and muntins go in panelled doors using British terminology. Perhaps the terms are different in the US-- I can't say for sure. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
No, your right.
Thats why I mutter!BB
Richard,
If only to add to the confusion (my primary purpose in life), one shop where I worked used "muntin" specifically for the sashbars that were full length (usually they were horizontal in that shop's practice) and "mullion" for the shorter bars that were placed perpendicular to the mullions. (Later, tho, I was told by someone that "muntin" referred always to the vertically oriented sashbars, regardless of their length, being derived from the French word "muntire" to rise up.) The same shop used the term mullion for short stiles, mortised or dovetailed across two full length rails (like the ones separating the lopers from the drawer opening in a slant-front desk, or the ones dividing a long drawer opening into a series of shorter openings for multiple drawers, eg the top tier on a tall chest).
Have seen window sash in houses with its vertical sashbars running the full height of the sash, with the horizontal bars as short pieces coped in place; in furniture pieces, it seems that the more common practice is to run the horizontal bars full length, and fill in between them with short vertical members. Perhaps along the line, the orientation of the longer bars got changed, and the name "muntin" stayed with them?
Then there is the practice of joining the crossing bars with a sort of mitered cross-lap joint, wherein both the vertical and horizontal bars are full length.
According to my dictionary, stye (as in pigpen) and stile (that you climb to cross a fence) are from the Anglo-Saxon stigen, step or climb. The sty on your eye is from a similar A-S root, with meaning, "to rise". Stile as a furniture component is speculated as coming from the Dutch, stijl, with no meaning given.
Ray
Chris,This all of course makes me wonder on the Comedy Stigens of our entertainers as they refer to the stigens of Haute couture..... As I said before, it's a wonderment.
Lataxe "Perhaps the "root meaning" of sty is something like "sticks up" or "an upright thang". I think there is room in your explanation here for vacuum cleaners and afflicted body parts, although one might "rail" against that.
A new model of Hoover Stigens is soon to be released.
Or "Oh My, she noticed that dreadful man was out in public with a stigens!"Many definitions. I sense there's a mullion of 'em out there.BB
Ray & WG,
Here are some pics of Catstycam for you. I have made them big to cause your slow connection to warm up. :-)
View Image
Wot a pert fell!
View Image
I kin flyyyyy!
View Image
The only way is up.
Lataxe, who is huddled in the hoosey just now as it's tossin' it doon out there.
Lataxe, ye olde fell-stepper, (or is it steppe feller?)
Loverly views. Thanks for sharing the pics. I had to step back from the puter to take it all in.
Ray
Ray,
I kinda like this thread. It reminds me of the LONG THREAD. Will this be the second?When in Half Moon Bay, CA, a few days ago, I was surprised to fine a fine furniture store. It is called Cottage Industries. All modern style furniture but nicely made. You can see some of their stuff on the following website, which has no prices. I am not flacking for the place. Just letting folks know that there are some folks out there trying to make a living by producing nice furniture. http://www.myhandmadehome.com Half Moon Bay and the surrounding area is a high rent district, so a fine furniture shop might just do well. I wish them well. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
Yeah, something about plane threads, I guess, that lends itself to great length, and meandering topics.
So, how was your visit to the left coast?
Ray
Ray,
Trip to the coast was wonderful. I only see my son, Mike and his wife, Rosemary abouty twice a year. Rosemary is "heavy with child" as they say. Our first grand daughter is due in June. Happy to report that both husband and wife are doing fine, and are ready for their first child. Both work at Google now, so we got a nice tour of Google. But the fun part was just hanging out with the kids, even though they are not kids any more.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
WOOOHOOO!
Another Grandbaby to spoil.
You lucky dog,
Ray
"Rosemary is "heavy with child" as they say"
There was me thinking the correct and polite expressions or euphenisms have always been along the lines that a pregnant woman is described as having one 'up the duff', or she's 'got a bun in the oven'. I guess the society I mix with isn't quite as genteel as the one you mix with, ha, ha.
I have always been described as rude, crude and socially acceptable, which I assumed was a compliment, but now I'm not so sure. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard,I wouldn't worry if some folks don't think you are not fully socialized. What do they know?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Providing you're socially acceptable, that's all that matters, Richard.Cheers,eddie
Ray,
You have been possesed by the spirit of Private Frazer from Dad's Army:
Aye!! We're aall doomed"!!! (Shakes hoary auld Scots heed and wanders off staring at the ground and muttering to hisself).
Lataxe, who prefers optimism on the grounds that most prophesies become self-fulfilling.
Friends,
I just got back from a half day at Woodcraft, where I heard that Wood River will be coming out with a low angle block plane and a shoulder plane, and will be making some improvements to their existing line of planes. This was verbal. I have seen nothing in writing. I'll keep you posted.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Here is a very, very funny video on the desire to buy cheep and the perils that entails. It seems like everyone in this discussion would get a kick out of it.
If it doesn't play let me know and I will check the link again. http://sendables.jibjab.com/originals/big_box_mart
TT
TT,
I watched the video. It is a riot. The questions it raises are quite complex, and not easily addressed in a message. The cartoon video is really a cartoon and it is quite one sided. It does show that Americans LOVE Wallmart. They buy at Walmart rather than other places. One must learn to accept that. One can cry and weep about it, and say that Americans are stupid for doing that, but Walmart is moving to other countries and they love buying at Walmart too. Walmart is doing well while other businesses are failing.If you accept that fact, then you can start to figure out what to do about it. You could try to change it. Lotsa luck! You could ask, how would the Americans of olden days handled this. The answer is with good old American ingenuity. They say, making sausage is a dirty business. Well business is not all peaches and cream. Some businesses will survive and some will fail. I suggest that if Lie Nielsen finds a way to make and sell GOOD QUALITY at a lower price, they are more likely to survive than if they continue with the good quality at a high price. I am merely saying that if Wood River planes turn out to be GOOD quality, then folks will buy the Wood River smoother for a third of the cost of the LN. You may not like what I am saying. I wonder though, do you think I am wrong?Cant wait to hear from you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
It is kind of a tricky conversation, kind of like asking members here for directions to New York City - it kind of depends where your starting from.I know in the head of every customer there is a little calculator figuring out if they can afford something, what the priority of the item is and if that item has a high value to them for the money on the price tag. For us on a budget, the budget really makes the decision, and the individual is left fussing around in the margins on the details.
TT
I believe that is only half of the point of this rediculously long thread. I don't wish to resurrect it, but since I believe your question (or statement, whichever it is) is a valid one, I will comment.
The "blue collar crowd", as you called it, should be extremely pleased to know that there are an abundance of pre-war Stanley planes available for less than the cost of a new Wood River plane. Some will need to be fettled. Some won't. I've personally seen a wood river plane, and used one. I wasn't impressed. It needs to be fettled, as well, and some of the components are cheaply (read poorly) made. The older Stanleys are mostly very well made, and also require some fettling, but in the end, you will have spent less money, invested the same amount of time fettling (or less), and have a better tool in the long run.
And, if you even care, you won't be contributing to the demise of North America's economy. (Just my personal opinion, shared by many, and detested by others.) If you don't care about this, then just consider the upper part of this message, and delete this entire paragraph.
We make so very little in this country as it is.
Even the Iphone is a china product. Having worked in the apparel business for the last 30 years I have seen the devastation of clothing Made in USA. I am sitting at my computer and looking around the room full of electronics, tables ceiling fans, pen and pencils, calculators, waste paper basket, telephones and I can pick out two things made in America: one item is a Hooker Home system cabinet, the company went chapter 11 within the last two years, and the other product is the wall to wall carpet that my toes are touching. I am afraid that American consumin is a sport.In fact, if you haven't seen this already, go to the web site http://www.jibjab.com and play their parody on "big box stores"
It will get both a tear and a smile from you.
Best,
TT
And, once again, the discussion has veered off topic.
+1 on your rant.
Is that good or bad????
Jeff,
not too long ago Europeans spent huge amount of resources in an attempt to copy Chinese products. We named the whole country (or more accurately the whole culture) ofter one of those products.
Great innovations often start with copying current technology and improving it (in technology-speak often called leapfrogging the competition).
Of course that does not justify commercializing blatant copies of existing products.
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Kind of interesting. Not long ago I tried to buy an american made portable drill. The long and the short of it is I could not find one. They are all made and/or assembled elsewhere. And that includes Milwaukee, Porter Cable, DeWalt and everything else sold by Lowes or Home Depot. So much for buying American.
"The quality products coming from LN (American) and Lee Valley(Canadien) are far superior in every detail to the crap coming from China. And, if you don't want to see your children and/or grand children speaking chinese as a primary language, then you'd better open your eyes, pay attention to world events, and get with the program."
I've bought plenty of Chinese-made things that are not crap. I don't always need the best of the best for everything I do, and sometimes foreign-made goods suit my needs. I try to buy American where and when I can but I don't always do so. If someone in America can make something at my level of need I'll certainly pay a small premium for it, but I haven't seen this happen a lot.
Chinese is a fine language, by the way. It's got a very long and rich history and is a joy to study, speaking from personal experience. I would be extremely proud were my children to speak Chinese.
Carlos
Chinese is a fine language, by the way. It's got a very long and rich history and is a joy to study, speaking from personal experience. I would be extremely proud were my children to speak Chinese.
As would I! The day of "us" and "them" is coming to a close.
"Chinese is a fine language, by the way. It's got a very long and rich history and is a joy to study, speaking from personal experience. I would be extremely proud were my children to speak Chinese."Carlos:Strictly speaking, Chinese isn't a language but a language group with Mandarin and Cantonese being the two most common languages. Your children should probably start with Mandarin.Hastings
Hastings:Right, but usually when someone says they're learning Chinese it's Mandarin. I studied Mandarin and everyone referred to it as "Chinese." I bumped into real ardent students who decided to torture themselves and study Cantonese, but they were few and far between. Four tones (Mandarin) was enough for me. Then there are all the local dialects, as well as the local versions of what people CLAIM are Mandarin. It got really interesting when I lived there because locals (where I lived) would correct my Chinese, which was pretty standard Beijing pronunciation. So after a while I gained a subtle Shandong accent. Carlos
Edited 4/7/2009 9:02 pm ET by calden
Which all goes to show: I'd be proud if my children knew the difference.
Well, my kids know the difference, but much to my dismay neither of them decided to study Chinese as a foreign language. They insisted on French and German. Imagine.Carlos
Kids...
Pull the white robe off and extinguish the flaming cross on the lawn.
We get it just fine, they are people just like us but with a longer richer history.
You are a bigoted anachronism that with any kind of luck will soon be extinct.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
It must be very frightening to hold your beliefs... you have my pity.
You are more compassionate than I, he has my contempt.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I'm also very handsome.
It's wasted on me, I like girls :).
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
It's wasted on me, too, I'm married.
Jeff
I understand that many of us have strong feelings about American made products. We once made the best of the best, and we still believe we have that capability. I, for one, think we do, and as I stated, I am willing to pay more for the best, and even pay a bit of a premium to keep our economy hummin' along. Even though it costs me a bit more I buy locally, from small locally owned shops, when I buy bicycle stuff, music stuff, and electronics because I put my money where my mouth is when I want to support a certain type of town and culture (i.e., non- Walmart, non-Best Buy, keeping my money local, etc.). Buying American is the same kind of thing.
But that has nothing to do with slagging another culture. I HAVE lived in China, and have seen what they can and can't do in manufacturing. I have also seen what they have culturally and socially to offer the world.
Let's keep this discussion focused on the quality of the planes. If you or I have values we want to support above and beyond that, then take that information and use it how you will.
Carlos
I think you two are in agreement, as I read it. I don't take Jeff to be prejudice against Chinese. I think he was more expressing the same sort of buy-local sentiments as you. The Chinese are fully capable manufacturers, workers, people, etc. I don't think that is the point. Instead, I think we use the words "China" and "Chinese" as a short hand way to refere to the practice of US and other Western companies of using the Chinese manufacturing resources to knock off things made more locally. China is a facility that can cheaply produce knock-offs from outright phony black market DVDs, perfume, handbags, etc. to more gray sort of generic version products (see the JWW Borg products). It reminds me of going to the supermarket or drugstore where right next to every branded product is a knock-off product with a very similar looking package - children's tylenol grape next to Rite-Aid acetaminophen grape - etc. There's a strong element of free-riding - Rite Aid does spend the resources to develop the product, to advertise the product, or even to come up with the packaging etc, they just knock it off and undersell the real thing. Now the stuff might be made in China or whatever, but any disdain for the free-riding shouldn't be directed at the Chinese, but at the people who hired the Chinese to make this stuff and then put it in their stores to sell.
I've had experience with other Wood River products. I am done wasting money on any Wood River tool that I plan on using more than once. My last experience was with a pen barrel trimmer that wouldn't hold an edge or cut the brass tubes completely.
I don't see this label as a line that has good QC. Poor fit & finish.
For the same investment you could likely get a decent used plane or save a little longer and get something that will last a lifetime of pleasurable use.
The bitterness of price will long be forgotten while the frustration of poor choice remains like a splinter under your fingernail.
Greg
•••••••
Exo 35:30-35
I've had experience with other Wood River products.
Just so I can understand your point clearly, does that mean you have not, in fact, purchased or used a Wood River plane?
Yes that is correct. I have not owned or used one of their planes. I guess it goes along the lines that I have never used a Black and Decker router. But I have used a few other B&D tools and I will not own another one b/c of my experience with the name brand. And what I personally want out of my tool investments.
When a company puts their name on a product, I automatically associate it with other products associated with their name - good or bad.
Festool for example. Greg
<!---->•••••••
Exo 35:30-35<!---->
When a company puts their name on a product, I automatically associate it with other products associated with their name - good or bad.
When a company name represents a single individual, I might agree with you.
However, when it represents a company, I don't believe a "name" means anything.
Except, of course, for Cheverolet. :)
All joking aside, I don't believe that a name that represents a company means anything. I've given a couple examples, there are lots of others. I DO agree that if names meant something, things would be much simpler, and then the companies involved could set their prices accordingly.
However, if names DID mean something, and were always accurate, Lie-Neilson wouldn't need a return policy, because everything they let out the door would be perfect.
We're already there. Names are already corrupt. No matter how hard you wish, there will be good products from companies with weak reputations and bad products from companies with fine reputations. I know how I deal with that state of affairs, and the limits that people adopt are up to them.
Jammersix,
Hey buddy(is that ok, or did it drive you crazy),
sit down, take a breath, relax, it's all ok. Yeah, I know, a bunch of crap, but it works. I'd offer you a beer but my livers shot. You're wound a little tight; we've all been there, as human beings - not just woodworkers(I'll pay for that). You raise several important and interesting issues. But, like me, you tend to diverge from the main thread; "WOODWORKING".Names, words, product id, marketing , ... ; all fascinating subjects related to just about everything in our environment. Ancient questions in all cultures - always relevant -> wrong arena.
You wanna play? I'm bored. [email protected]
What do you want to play?I offered at least a hundred and fifty thousand posts ago to go buy a Wood River plane and put it through my own, personal ringer.I asked if there was anything anyone wanted me to look for, and how they would look for it.Mouth, money, joined.No one responded, even though it was free, and the money being risked was mine.So, since we were clearly back in the 70s, sitting in a coffee house, wearing berets, playing chess, smoking hand rolled cigarettes made with imported tobacco and holding forth on issues that had no substance, I broke out my chess board and pushed a pawn.Your move."Buddy".
Edited 3/12/2009 11:49 pm ET by Jammersix
You want a list of things that you should check to see if a plane is any good? Are you new to planes? Okay, I'll try to make you a list. Which plane are we talking about because a block is a little different than a bench plane?
Nope, I'm not new. At least, relative to me...I've been a Carpenter since somewhere around 1979. Depends on how you count...The reason I asked is so I don't do what so many reviewers do, and check the Standard Stuff, and risk leaving out The One Thing that would change someone's mind-- and then I was standing by for a list of Really Weird Stuff...If you just want a laundry list of measurements, that's been done. Check Sawblade or Sawmill or whatever that other board is.If you have a specific grudge, let me know.I'll probably buy a 5, simply because my current 5 annoys me, and if it annoys me again, I'm going to excommunicate it, and lower the boom.I'll take it apart, cut the wood into sawdust, burn the sawdust, melt the metal down to slag, pour the slag into a nice, thin sheet, roll the sheet into a tight tube, drill a hole through it, put a padlock through the hole, lock it, and drop the whole thing into the coldest, deepest part of Green Lake.Which will put it to a horrible death at a depth of about twelve feet.No one will ever see it again.It will just......vanish.
First, I really don't have a dog in this hunt, as I'm not at all interested in ever buying a WoodRiver plane. I care only tangentially in that I hope WoodRiver doesn't hurt LN, because I hope to be buying LN products for a long time.
But if I were interested in a WR 5, I would consider the following:
- a Jack plane, used as a typical jack, is not the most demanding plane as far as tolerances. No doubt I could get a $35 Annat to handle typical jack chores in plain figured woods. I wouln't be surprised as all if the WR jack would do it's job.
- but assuming it would be my only plane, and at times, I might therefore hope push it to operate as a large smoother on some more challenging grains, I'd look for the following things:
1. check the flatness of the sole with a straightedge and granite plate
2. check the machining of the body for flat and square (in case I wanted to use it on a shooting board)
3. check the machining and finish of all critical surfaces sole, sides, frog bed, blade bed, mouth, etc.
4. check the feel of the handles (this actually matters in long sessions/ blisters are possible, and cramps too) and the method/security with which they are attached to the body
5. check the details of the mouth area as far as square, as wide as needed for the blade but no wider, and the coplaner flatness between the toe and front of the mouth
6. check out the blade adjustment mechanism for materials and play - you want a strong yoke (not that pressed steel junk) and you wqant as little backlash as possible (i.e., play in the wheel before it engages the blade when moving the blade up and down)
7. check out the lever cap to blade mating
8. check out the materials and operation of the lateral adjustment lever -
9. sharpen the blade to see what kind of edge it takes, then use it on some tough wood and see how well the edge holds and for how long
Ultimately, the whole is the sum of these parts and more, and is only really assessed in use by how well the plane works to take shavings. A test of fine shavings makes sense even if you will not always take fine shavings because it tells you something about the overall tolerances of the planes. Even a relatively poor plane can take rank shavings.
I'll look forward to the report.
I would also look forward to a report.
I would carry out your item 9 first, as if it failed on this then the rest would not matter.Philip Marcou
Sharpening a brand new plane and using it is folly, Phillip, until a couple basic things have been checked.
I am the person who started this post and am totally confused by all the responses.I looked at the sites mentioned to see what other bogs were saying but what I saw was the same argument that appeared here about whether it is advisable to trade with China or not. I didn't see much about whether or not Wood River planes are serviceable or not. Certainly, I did not see anyone saying that they are good value. The fact that no one defended them makes me think they probably are not that good. I have never seen a similar discussion about where Grizzly or Jet or SawStop are made. I did appreciate Samson's suggestion that supertools is a place where I can get good advice about used planes that are a good value. I also appreciated the offer from several of you to guide me through buying some decent used planes off e-bay, etc. I plan on taking them up on that offer.Domer
Domer -I thought your question was good. I agree with you that the replies have gone off on a tangent. According to some very detailed postings at SawMillCreek, my take is that the planes are quite good with a few limitations: the lateral adjustment lever attaching rivet is weak (one guy replaced it with a nut & bolt and said it worked well), the blade needs honing (pretty much true for every plane), and some of the "details" are not quite as good as the LN planes. I have an LN block plane and several older (mostly Stanley) bench planes that I got from various sources, including eBay. The LN experience was the best, but the other planes worked out fine also. I think it will be great if there's an alternative between the current cheap planes that everybody pans and the LN and Veritas lines.
Doug
The Wood Loon
Acton, MA
Domer,
I will answer your question. The Woodriver line of planes is very new. I think it's only a month old. There are so few reviews of them because there is so little experience with them. Sure, Woodcraft has sold a lot but it's to hobbiests like most of us. How often do we use planes and how much experience does one need to write a reasonable review?
The majority of woodriver planes have done little more than pose for pictures similar to what we're starting to see here. If somebody is able to give a review at this stage it will only be in regards to fit, finish and test cuts. The mean-spirited among us are right in that you could only have a severly tarnished review at this point because the people buying these almost certainly will give a biased review.
MattNo representation without taxation
I am the person who started this post and am totally confused by all the responses.
192 responses AND probably 192 different ideas! You asked Humans! Not rational things like Bugs.. That have surrived for millions of years.
I would thing at least some gave a rational thought in their mind!
that appeared here about whether it is advisable to trade with China or not.
I would say WHY NOT. I have two little GrandGirls 'Made In China'. They are my family just like my Daughters are... Adopted and they are the best made children on the planet!
Been to China to get them and for my work. Chinese folks work HARD but they do as the BOSS instructed them to do! Sort of like here in the USA...
And why not be like I do.. I get one if the price is right! Made some bad purchases in my life but many good ones doing the same!
Edited 3/18/2009 8:31 am by WillGeorge
A lot of this has been done. Check Sawblade dot com, or whatever that free site is.1 and 2 have been done.How do you want 3 and 4 quantified? How do you quantify a finish? How do you measure a feel?If it can't be quantified, how can it be measured?If it can't be measured, what exactly are you asking me?Assuming you want more than "metal" for "material" in number 8, what are you asking me to do? Repeat what Wood River says they're made out of? For "operation", will "yes" do?I'll be happy to run your tests, but the laundry list thing has been done, on that free site.If you tell me what you're looking for with your questions, (some of them are interesting) I'll be happy to run the tests, and write the report.
I don't care enough about this to waste any more of my time trying to educate a sarcastic smarta$$. Good luck with your plane.
By the way, just in case you don't intend it (and I really think you do), you should know that you come off as an insincere jerk in most of your posts. Good luck with that too.
I take it that means you don't need me to run tests for you?So be it.Have a nice day.
Oh no, what will I do if you don't run tests on Wood Craft's (Lie-Nielsen knock-off) house line? I guess I'll have to limp along with these:
View Image
Wow.
Jeez, Samson, calm down.You put more effort into that one picture than I've put out in the last week!To answer your question, I guess you'll have to limp along without my report.I have the plane.
Samson,
LOL!! That was a gutbuster, for sure...here's mine.
Jeff
Thanks, Jeff. I remember you posting some of yours this way before. It gave me the idea to take a few minutes and pull them all out of the cabinets.
You've got some I hope to have as time goes by. Nice stuff.
Edited 3/14/2009 8:04 pm ET by Samson
Samson,
Tools of the trade, my friend. I've enjoyed your interaction in this thread, and I commend you on your stamina. I bowed out a long time ago. I'm going to try to stick to the woodworking threads, for a while at least. It's getting harder and harder around here with all these trolls lurking about.
I enjoyed your thread on the beaded inset cabinet door. A fine presentation it was. Quite worthy of admission into the magazine, if you asked me.
Keep on making shavings.
Jeff
How did you like working with that panel raiser?
Wouldn't be one of those olde Garret Wade ones would it?BB
No, it's a Leon Robbins. I like it plenty, but I think an adjustable one would be nice to have.
I covet.
And I thought I was bored.Hi MF!(happy?) You rise to bait too easy.Sorry, "play" is used as a respectful term in martial arts to refer to friends testing their skills against one another in order to deepen their understanding. I can play a number of things as can others on this blog. I sensed your hostility and offered a friendly, more conducive venue. Coffee houses were a 60's thing(and 9O's +). I know, I was there, I Think ;-)~. Look my point is this is a nice place where people gather to discuss woodworking. I learn a lot and hav found most to be very knowledgeable, helpful and friendly. While your points are important this is not the venue. Sorry you did not get the response you hoped for. This is a place where people go to talk about a craft they love. I respect that.KKn -> KB3Smile,
Pete
I've never heard the term "play" used in martial arts. As for hostility, you claim too much credit. Hostility would require a lot more energy than I would use for any message board on the internet.Hostility would require something real.And finally, I haven't noticed anyone in this thread talking about woodworking-- perhaps you came to the wrong place.
Judo? Karate? Kung Fu, Wu Shu, Tai Chi, Ba Qua, ...?
You're right, I'm wrong.
You Win!
Edited 3/13/2009 4:18 am ET by habilis
TKD. In another life.
What are you saying? Just print in plain english.
Can't do it. The words are Korean.
Yu mus be a tru amerikan an gon thru the amerikan edukashunal systum.
Aftr al ther is only 1 ligitimat langage an thet ther langage be englsh.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Well English is the official language in the USA, so that is what I use. Does not matter that much. Thanks.
The USA does not have an official language.
-Steve
This site is published on the World Wide Web and has members from many countries. Some of them speak several languages.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Hi,
Sorry, but I noticed your term "play" used in reference to martial arts. The only martial art that I have ever known of that used that term with regularity is Filipino martial arts. Might that be what you are referring to?
Not to get off subject, I think this thread is about planes or something. Anyway, I just thought your use of "play" was interesting; havn't heard it in a while.
Thanks
Wood working sight.
If you are going for a record here you are going to have to do better than illiteracy and intolerance in a single post.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I think it is woodworking "site"; and you are quite correct, it is.
Have a nice day.
Greg,
what makes you think these products came from the same factory?
According to the USPTO, WoodRiver is a registered trademark owned by Woodcraft Supply, LLC, of Parkersburg, WA 26102, USA
Furthermore the trademark covers
Hand tools: knives for carving, whittling and detailing, chisels, files and rasps; finishing tools, namely, hand tool sanders, hand tool scrapers and hand tool buffers in the nature of sanders for putting a finish on wood; marking tools, namely, hand tool squares and hand tool triangles in the nature of squares; hand tool planes; hand tool routers and hand tool router bits; hand tool saws; manually operated sharpeners for tools; vices and hand tool clamps; hand tool drills, wood boring tools, namely, hand operated drilling jigs, chucks for hand drills and bits for hand drills; wood turning tools, namely, hand tool gouges and hand tool scrapers
Measuring tools: tape measures and slide calipers
Work benches
Chris
---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Hmm ... I don't think he meant to impugn the factory per se, but rather the company in charge of that brand - you know, the ones who give the factory the instructions of what to make and thereby control the level of quality.
Sort of like when people say they dislike the Craftsman line or the Delta line. They're not talking about a facotry, they are talking about the quality (or lack thereof) they associate with the brand.
That's a mistake.I'm not interested in most Stanley tools. But they make the standard in tape measures. Wouldn't have another brand of tape measure.I'm not interested in most Craftman's tools. But they make fine combination wrenches.So if you write off an entire brand, then in my opinion, you deserve the rewards of your intellectual laziness.Most sentences that take the form "All _______ are junk!" are indicative of such laziness, and represent a desperate attempt on the part of the speaker to drastically cut down the number of pieces that must be investigated, usually in recognition of their own, personal capacity for reasonable analysis.After all, if all of XYZ Tool Companys stuff is junk, you don't need to analyze all of it, right?
Wait. I missed something. Now, while Samson did refer to to, "... the Craftsman line or the Delta line", he did not define 'line' as the sum total of all of a companies products. One could as easily infer he was referring to a particular product line; as in your references to Craftsman tapes and wrenches. Nowhere did he espouse anything suggesting "All A is B" in the sense you accuse him of. So, my friend, I suggest before you touch that happy trigger of accusing others of intellectual laziness, think again, that gun can blow up in your face.
We could go on like this forever, but it detracts from the thread. I'm bored, wife is out of time, staying out of trouble. If you like, let's argue it in email.
Fascinating discussion! It's so many layers deep now, that center of the matter is being missed and talked around.
This is business - an opportunity has presented itself - it will be exploited for profit. It's a beautiful thing!
Look, there is no block plane available on the market worth buying for under about $130. There is no bench plane available on the market worth buying for under about $250.
Anything new below that line is crap.
When we want planes we have these choices.1. Go to the used market and get a good old user to recondition2. Go to LV or LN or that other small group that comes in a distant 3rd and buy a really good plane3. Indulge ourselves and by a really, really, really good plane from a planemaker.
That leaves a HUGE hole where a block plane under $130 or a bench plane under $250 can sell. And this at a time when hand tools are making a big comeback in woodworking.
Woodcraft is doing that, and I understand Stanley is just around the corner. More will follow.
We'll know in about a year, after these newcomers get some traction, just how good they are. Will they just be good enough to knock the crap out of the game? Or will they be good enough to give LN and LV a run for their money? I suspect it will be the former - and that these will become the novice woodworker's stepping stones to better tools (LN/LV level) - but it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
Makes for darn good reading on Knots though!
Cheers,
Frank
Frank, we disagree.Do you have any crappy planes you bought that you'd like to unload on an unsuspecting fool like me?I'll give you good used crap prices!
Frank, we disagree.Do you have any crappy planes you bought that you'd like to unload on an unsuspecting fool like me?I'll give you good used crap prices!
Jammer, with what do we disagree?
Try to avoid the urge to be a recreationally controversial, reread my post, and let me know what you're talking about.
And no, I don't have any crappy planes to sell. I am thinking of selling a LN Scraper Plane but it's not crappy.
Frank
I have a block plane that I paid $35 for.I'll increase the price to $130 for you, then you won't think it's crap.Where shall I send it?
I'm late to the fight but I would still like to enter.
I disagree with your argument if you believe that you can never fully write off a brand (or store, restaurant, etc..) regardless of past experience. With enough experience resulting in disappointment the brand must be abandoned, at least as far as blind purchases go (those without being specifically suggested like you just did.)
One WoodRiver product may share only a name with another, but the owner of that name has decided to market and associate them together. The owner of Woodriver has chosen to relate them. Therefore, they are suggesting similarities.
I won't buy Ryobi.
And to take it much further:
I won't take Rt. 1 home tonight despite it being potentially faster than the back roads I take. One fender bender, stalled car, traffic stop doubles my commute.
I won't buy a cheesesteak from the closest pizza joint to me because their pizza, buffalo wings, calzones are no good.
My morning routine before work never changes.
And finally, I won't go to a Sears right around the corner from my house for anything because I always leave disappointed. Actually, I've made this promise to myself 100 times but I went just last night because it's on my way home (if I take route 1) looking for a 1" forstner bit, 150 grit sandpaper and a 100' hose and left with nothing because they were out of stock of each. Thus supporting the idea that abandoning a brand has its merits.
I may be missing out on a few wonderful products, but I've enough experience with these things to be reasonably certain that it saves me more headaches than I'm willing to risk.No representation without taxation
I have not used hardly any hand tools in the past. But I joined the local woodworkers guild and many of our members are strong advocates of
hand tools in conjunction with power tools.They seem to fall into two groups. 1. Old hand planes that they refurbish or 2. New LN or something similar.I have been reluctant to get into the refurbishing of old planes because I don't want to take the time to go find them and then refurbish them. At the same time, I am reluctant to spend $300-$400 apiece to see how I like them.So I was looking for a less expensive alternative and as a result wanted to know if the Wood River planes are any good and it seems that your answer is that the are not a good value. Thanks for taking the time to answer the original question I asked.Domeer
Dude, if you've got the change to buy a WR, you've got the change to buy a VERY good vintage Stanley/Miller's Falls/Sargent bench plane. You don't have to go the route of buying a $2 flea market rust bucket and setting up your own basement electrolosis operation in 5 gallon buckets etc. Used tool dealers like Patrick Leach (http://www.supertool.com) and others, not to mention eBay can provide great users that need little or no refurbishment. I have 3s, 4s, 5s, 7s, and various blocks that I've aquired over the years that all work GREAT. If you really want to soup up a vintage plane, buy a replacement blade, though it's not essential - they work fine with their original blades too. I really love the LN Stanley replacements because they are drop fit as far as being thicker, but not overly thick such you have to mess with the mouth and such to make them work well.
SamsonThanks for your post. I have looked at planes on e-bay but don't know enough to know what I looking for or what price I should pay.Is the dealer you posted one you would recommend?Domer
Absolutely. Send Patrick an e-mail (see his site for the address). Tell him what you want, and I'm sure he can fix you up.
Alternatively, there are many here, including me, who would be glad to help you know what to bid either generally or for specific items.
I agree that Patrick is a great person to deal with.
I first purchased from him about 13 years ago and have been thrilled with every item. I find his descriptions to be extremely accurate and his shipping to be quick and priced fairly.
I have had very good luck dealing with Walt at Brass City Tools in CT - http://www.brasscityrecords.com/toolworks/LOOT/index.htm
I think his prices are very good relative to other used sites and ebay and he has been very square in all of his dealings with me. He posts weekend finds every Monday morning on the web and is quite helpful on phone or email. I have purchased from him 3-4 times. He posts his prices on his site so it is a good point of comparison.
Randy
I don't think anyone here is interested in a test on those planes, Samson.We're talking about Wood River planes. I'm going to buy a Wood River plane."Dude."
"So I was looking for a less expensive alternative and as a result wanted to know if the Wood River planes are any good and it seems that your answer is that the are not a good value."Are you serious! Is that what you have gotten from this entire conversation? Did you read any of the testing information at the aforementioned websites? Chris
DOMERI am endeavoring to not attempt to answer questions I am not qualified to answer. Far too much of that ruins a forum and leads the OP astray. I'm not sure what type of plane you are referring. I bought a LN Block plane in December for $165. Lee Valley has #4 smoothers for $215 New. So you can get into a new plane for under $300-$400.And you can find comparable used for probably 1/2 that price. All that said, $80 is not that much money. If you buy it and don't like it, put it on eBay and you're maybe only out $40. Woodcraft may have a 30 day return policy. Ask first about returning it if you use it and don't like it.My philosophy is to make lifetime tool purchases when possible. So I personally would either buy a good used plane or save until I could get the new one I wanted. Having made a lot of new tool investments, I would look used first. Then I would go the new route. When I say used, I don't mean needing major overhaul. I would be willing to spend a couple of hours tuning it. You will have to keep your new one tuned as the years go by, so why not learn the things you need to eventually know now?Greg
<!---->•••••••
Exo 35:30-35<!---->
Domer,
Have you heard that curiosity killed the cat? Meow. Using the lame excuse that we needed some milk, and since there is a Woodcraft next to the grocery store we shop at, I decided that a quick look at some Wood River planes was a good idea. They had a #4 and a block plane set out to try. The smoother looked and performed very nicely. So did the block. I purchased the block.
The fit and finish are nice. The sole was flat and needed no work. The cap iron needed a few passes on a 220 stone. The blade took longer to sharpen than I would have expected. End result: I now have a $60 Chinese low angle block plane that is certainly worth $60, at least to me.
-Jerry
You have better prices than here.The only block planes here are $69.Which, I understand, makes them nine dollars better to some people.So far, the Chinese plane makers are beating the American plane makers.
Beating them or occupying a different niche in the market?
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Jammer,
$63.99 or $64.99?? I forget. The receipt is out in my truck. I'm still curious as to which one you got?
-Jerry
Glad to hear your report. Actually I think they are made in India, not sure about that though.
Fantastic plane for any price. Even better for the low price. I cannot believe the quality and the fit, finish and cutting ability for the price. I bought a low angle block plane for 69 bucks. It is a great buy. I will purchase others soon.
Domer
I purchased a Wood River No. 6 plane. When I got it home I tuned it up but from what I could tell it did not need it. I put light pencil marks on the bottom and when moving the plane over 600 sand paper the lines were removed uniformly. I just got in from sharpening the blade and making the first few passes on a piece of wood when I read your post so I could not resist answering. The wood curls I was getting off the blade were .005" to .007" thick, thin enough to read through. I was satisfied with the plane (not my sharpening) though to be honest I have never owned one of any value and have NO previous experience in using them so this post should be taken with a gran of salt.
As a side note I thought the plane blade was to be sharpened at 30 deg but the factory grind was at 25 deg which I kept when sharpening. I don't know if this is right or wrong. I understand more expensive planes use thicker blades to reduce "chatter".
So far, it's a keeper. It's far better than one I paid more for.
Which one did you get?
Well that is positive.
Unfortunately you are not able to tell us from the sharpening you did if the blade will hold an edge , or compare it with others you may have sharpened.
A factory grind of 25 degrees is standard for this type of plane, and one hones (sharpens) at 30 degrees, which is supposed to be the normal procedure....
Plane up some boards and let us know how it goes.Philip Marcou
I have an amazing set of handplanes. Every single one of them gets dull at precisely the right moment - just when I need a break from planing. I'm not like the rest of the He-Men on this board who can plane for forty hours straight (and goddammit the iron better not get dull, I'm going for a record) without a pee break or maybe a quick smoke.
Somebody tells you the sole's flat. You invoke edge longevity. Somebody reports the steel holds up fine, you invoke aesthetics. Somebody reports they are a fine copy of a classic design you invoke the ethics of making copies.
I have an amazing set of handplanes. Every single one of them gets dull at precisely the right moment - just when I need a break from planing. I'm not like the rest of the He-Men on this board who can plane for forty hours straight (and goddammit the iron better not get dull, I'm going for a record) without a pee break or maybe a quick smoke.
Can I get an Amen?
Charles, about the only thing I can disagree with in the above is that sometimes my planes take too long to need sharpening. That's when I need to get creative with my breaks...
My chisels, on the other hand, require a bit more frequent sharpening if I am actually using them for something other than paring. Maybe I should pop for more expensive chisels than my 1960s era Marples?
Have a good one...Mike
Not if they work for you.
I was being facetious.
I guess I am buying a new set of chisels, but for my wife. Hopefully she will let me use them once in a while.
Take care, Mike
I was sorry that I started all of this because it confused me so much. But I have reconsidered and want to thank the recent posts that gave me some real answers that I can consider. Perhaps I should just go buy a Wood River plane and try it out. I have wasted a lot more money than that on lots of stuff.Domer
Your wife needs you to buy her tools for her?
Need? Of course not. Well, mostly not. Does it count she picked them out <g>...
Mike
Mike,
Then by all means you must recommend the best chisels, right? Uh oh, here we go - what are the best chisels?
Sorry.
Oh, do you sharpen her saws for using her chisels?
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hey Bob, howzit?
She decided on the chisels. No recomendations to speak of on my part. She ain't a noob when it comes to tool purchases, just flat work of which she has taken a liking to.
The new Blue Spruce bench chisels. And a couple marking widgets from Chris Vesper. And, I guess it is time to finally make her the couple saws she has been asking for over the last couple years. Curly Pink Ivory handles.
Take care, Mike
You know, guys and gals, it is a real shame that someone can ask a legitimate question on KNOTS, and because of the weather or the alignment of the moon or something, get hundreds of answers that don't help at all and mostly have nothing to do with his question, and in some cases are offensive.This thread is a case in point.I am guilty, too.There are a couple of other threads running right now in the hand tools section that have regrettable posts in them. This is a shame. Perhaps everybody should calm down, realize that winter is coming to an end, and try to recover the famed KNOTS good fellowship. Disagreements are one thing, and to be expected. Belligerence and obnoxiousness are not.How 'bout it?Cheers!J
Joe, I think you are exaggerating. Go back and read this thread from the beginning and I think you'll see that there are plenty of very direct answers to the OP's question and LOTS of very useful information.
And personally, I think thread police are tiresome. Just because an OP starts a thread, it doesn't mean that the OP owns it or that only direct plain vanilla answers are all that are appropriate. You ask someone a question, be prepared to accept that they might not answer it the way you imagined they might or indeed, the way you hoped they would. Further, if you hask ten friends a question, you might well expect that once they answer you, they might start talking amonst themselves about something related that your question has brought up.
As far as the Rodney king sentiment - yeah yeah, kumbaya, okay.
Samson:And a gracious good morning to you, too.Of course threads change and deviate, as do conversations. My comments were made because of the cumulative effect of a lot of disagreeable chatter on several threads. This is not the worst offender. Thread police don't exist here. They can be tiresome where they do exist. But so can people who take the unique circumstances of the internet as an opportunity to be offensive in a place where there are no practical consequences.In another wholly unrelated web site with an equally large (if not larger) global reach than KNOTS, we have found that a few disagreeable or combative people will drive many good contributors away.What I am about to say is NOT aimed at you, Samson, so please do not feel that it is or respond as though it was. It is simply a fact that over ten years at the other forum, we have found that those who complain about "thread police" are, with a few exceptions, the very same people whose intemperate or offensive posts are most likely to be policed. J
Joe, I really meant no offense. I try to think in terms of whether I'd say what I'm typing to someone who was standing in front of me. Often we will be more frank with folks we know. I feel like I know you, so I said what I thought.
I don't object to policing for offensiveness. I hate offensiveness probably more than most, though I can definitely be provoked into dishing some out it someone else cracks open a can of it.
The policing that bugs me is that where scolds tell us that we may not deviate from the OP's topic at all.
Happy Monday. ;-)
Agree.As one who enjoys your contributions, I was not aiming at you.Some threads have gotten out of hand lately, though.Joe
Joe,
just back away slow.
Grab your coat and head slowly towards the door, I'm getting an unruly mob together.
We're going to veer off topic and use coarse language. If that doesn't make your head explode we'll get out the heavy artillery and use some humor.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Disagreeable people may drive contributors away, but by definition, they will not drive GOOD contributors away.Now go buy a Wood River plane, or admit that your sole contribution to a thread about Wood River planes is a series of off-topic complaints about off-topic posts, and that they stand in stark contrast to the posts of GOOD contributors. Be careful. You might drive some contributors away from this topic.Wood River is winning. They are built for heavy iron, in sharp contrast with other brands. There is even some complaining going on in another thread about trying to put a LN blade in a Stanley plane.I think I'll start referring to L-Ns as the Boutique Specials.The only thing I've noticed about my Wood River that can be construed as a negative is that there is some lash in the depth adjustment. Far less than in a Stanley or a Record, but not zero.The things that are worth mentioning that are positive are numerous; the top three are that it is built from the ground up for heavy iron, it is built taller, and the price.There is also gravy. The facts that it came set up doesn't really make much difference to me, but it did.
Jam,
"I think I'll start referring to L-Ns as the Boutique Specials".
Now that is interesting. Can you elaborate on what you mean by a "Boutique Special" i.e describe what features of a plane would qualify for the title?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that Heavy Iron, minimal adjustment lost motion, tallness and a , er, Keen price are features you like to see in a non "Boutique Plane"?
Talking of "lash": it is inherent in the design and will exist in any plane using a screw and Y lever to move the iron no matter how fine the tolerances are.Philip Marcou
Given two planes of comparable quality, the title would go to the plane that either had unnecessary bling or the higher price.
There is such as thing as unnecessary bling? Bling is a very necessary component :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Okay, good answer.Philip Marcou
Given two planes of comparable quality, the title would go to the plane that either had unnecessary bling or the higher price.
Unlike Philip, I think neither of those reasons necessarily qualify a tool to be designated as a "boutique special." But especially the latter.
There is a huge difference in the economy of scale and one cannot divorce the issue of price differentials from country of origin. Leaving the politics of CO aside, if there is a large enough disparity in local economic factors, the origin that can produce a widget for the lesser cost *may* sell the tool for a large enough difference to produce the disparity in retail price.
This fact alone does not automatically mean the higher to produce widget is somehow a boutique widget due to its cost. Combined with the fact the WR can be produced within its socioeconomic setting in greater numbers for less cost further widens the potential price gap.
As to the former "unnecessary bling"? that can be a completely subjective rationale.
Take care, Mike
I must be a glutton for punishment - I read through this entire thread this morning. I'm not sure it was worth it, but it was highly amusing.
The funny thing about it is that it really doesn't have a lot to do with WoodRiver, or Planes, or even Woodworking. The argument is between people that are cheap and consider almost anything on the store shelves to be "rip offs" and will jump at the chance to get anything that resembles said product for a good deal less, and exult at such a bargain as a "victory!", and those that consider price to be (within a certain range) to be irrelevant and want what they want, and never think about what was charged at the register again after they get the item home and own it for a few days.
The argument is eternal, and will never be settled. Some will shop at Wal-Mart, and some won't set foot in the place.
Think about it this way - many will post a "gloat" thread on WW forums about some bargain they got for wood/tools on Craig's list, and some wouldn't even consider it. I fall into the latter camp and think such posts are obnoxious, but there are many that like reading them, judging from the "views" count on virtual bulletin board software-based forums.
Mike , Mike, Mike,
Hold your horses- what makes you think I am talking seriously on a thread like this?Philip Marcou
Let me help you, Marcou.I've changed my mind.Please, continue.
Edited 3/18/2009 3:00 am ET by Jammersix
What help are you proposing?Philip Marcou
I'm not. It's the help that I changed my mind about.
So what did you want to help with prior to the mind change?Philip Marcou
My apologies for using your post as a springboard.
Take care, Mike "All too Serious" Wenzloff
Jammersix:You know, whoever you are, I will take your word on the quality of the Wood River planes, despite all the nonsense you spout in other areas.J
Edited 3/17/2009 9:18 am ET by Joe Sullivan
So are you a WoodCraft shill? Not that you'd admit it if you were. No doubt woodworking boards like this have their share of interested party plants just waiting to talk up their companies' offerings.
You might want to work on the coherence of your praise, however, because this -- built from the ground up for heavy iron, it is built taller -- makes no sense whatsoever. Who is this "heavy iron" that the plane is built for? Or do you mean that it is made out of "heavy iron?" If so, what does that mean? I've heard of heavy water (extra hydogen atom), but never heavy iron. If you meant ductile steel, like LN, maybe you could say that? And "taller"??? The cheeks and frog of your 5 are significantly higher than on a comparable LN? And this is one of the top three things worth mentioning as wonderful about the plane because ....???
Oh and this:
There is even some complaining going on in another thread about trying to put a LN blade in a Stanley plane.
This is a just plain ignorant statement or perhaps intentionally misleading. LN makes excellent Stanley replacement blades that fit the old planes perfectly because they are .095 thick (thicker than the originals, but thinner than the blades included in LN's own planes):
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=512
The person in the other thread, in all likelihood, bought a replacment blade intended for a LN plane, i.e., too thick. They made the mistake, not LN.
So, since Groz planes are more expensive than Anant planes, Groz planes are Boutique?
That's a solid formula for intelligent thinking. Do you have anything else to add?
Great thread by a bunch of passionate tool lovers. Reminds me of a quote from John Muir, "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe. Even a choice of planes involves issues of intellectual property, labor, nationalism, quality, price and the elusive, how well do they work? I assume this is moderated so my suggestion to the editors is to let the readers/writers conduct a little test, get a half dozen of each of these planes to perhaps a dozen testers (I volunteer) and a piece of wood, all from the same stock. We have to tune the planes and then do some work, each plane on a different side of the board. Then write about the results. You will no doubt find problems with some of our skills in tuning and even planing, and it is in no way as crisp an analysis as the tool tests you do in the magazine, but it would be a fun addition to the Knots thread. If you cluster testers in areas, we can share the loaner tools, especially the LN, which you might need to put a tracking device on, which alone might prove something.For those of you with an anti-cheap foreign labor bias, you should take note of the collapse in global trade, as economic forces are starting to work to limit that.My personal experience is that LN is about as sweet a hand tool as a bunch of humans can make, I always regret it when I've purchased a cheap or moderately cheap knockoff import and I have never been disappointed buying quality used hand tools, 50-80 years old, cleaned up and tuned by someone who knows what they are doing -- like a vendor at the PATINA tool show.John
You've convinced me.You've convinced me that I need to add a "Boutique Customer" category to go with my Boutique rating for tools.I'm betting there's a real market for espresso, foreign tobacco and chess sets near tool boutiques.
Edited 3/18/2009 3:01 am ET by Jammersix
Not yet.Here's a quick, simple way to tell: if I have something to add, I'll post it.
I'm sorry; I'll have to spell it out for you. Do you have something of intelligence to add? You've posted a great deal here, but most of it is gibberish.
Yes, I imagine that to you, it is.I have the same issue with my apprentice.
The only real difference is that she's cute, so I won't ignore her.
After reading all of the postings I decided to go to a Woodcraft store and check out the Wood River planes for myself. First the good stuff: heavy, nicely milled casting with flat sole; bedrock style frog, thick O-1 iron and chipbreaker, and decent lever cap. Now the bad stuff: skinny tote, too wide of mouth; thin flimsy lateral adjusting lever that barely is able to shift the double iron; poorly designed depth adjusting yoke (more on this in the next paragraph).
I tried out all three bench plane models (#3, #4, and #6). On all of the planes advancing the iron to take a thicker shaving wasn't a problem, but retracting the iron was difficult. On all three planes the nib on the yoke (the extension the fits into the chipbreaker slot) is slanted toward the sole of the plane. It has no problem engaging the slot to push the double iron down, but the slant of the nib causes it to try and slide under the double iron instead of solidly pushing it back to retract the iron. On the #3 and #6 I had to lift the cam on the lever cap to take the downward pressure totally off of the iron before I could retract the blade. Not a deal killer, but a clear design flaw. I have seen this problem on old worn Stanley planes where the nib has been rounded over from wear. The only fix on those planes is to replace the yoke. I'm curious as to whether or not anyone else has noticed this problem.
The Wood River planes are probably worth their price, but don't compare to LN or LV tools. Given the open mouths and 45 degree frogs, I don't see the #3 or #4 being very effective on figured woods. The #6 is really heavy and with a cambered iron it could hog off a bunch of wood fast. By the way, the block plane is not low angle, it has a 20 degree frog.
My guess is that these planes won't impact the sales of LN or LV as much as the other cheap planes made elsewhere. The market for old Stanleys may take a hit as well. Personally, after what I saw, I will stick to my old Stanley jack and fore planes and my LN smoothers, jointer, and block planes.
Disclaimer: I don't work for any government, tool manufacturer or dealer. Nor do any of these entities value my opinion enough to pay me or give me free tools to promote their interests. I'm just a guy who has used handplanes enough over 40 years to be able to tell what works, what works well, and what doesn't work well enough.
gdblake
Edited 3/17/2009 9:56 pm ET by gdblake
I'm curious as to whether or not anyone else has noticed this problem.Not me. I never try to set the depth of a handplane while it's locked down.
If I could, I don't believe I'd think it was tight enough. It never occurred to me to try. Besides, Dad would rise out of his grave and WHUP me.
Edited 3/17/2009 10:17 pm ET by Jammersix
"Not me. I never try to set the depth of a handplane while it's locked down."
Now that is interesting....
I assume you talk of the Stanley type with the y lever.Philip Marcou
Jammersix:
The beauty of the Bailey design on a properly made tool is that you can make fine adjustments to the iron while the lever cap is locked down. The tool's tolerances are suppose to be tight enough to allow for this. Fine adjustments are far more difficult to make with the lever cap disengaged. I suggest you get your hands on an old Stanley plane, a LN, or a Clifton and back out the lever cap hold down screw until you are able to adjust the iron with the level cap engaged. You should find that you have more control over the depth of cut this way.
gdblake
Yee gawds. I don't see how you can get it accurate that way....I'll try it. But I be my Baileys are set up way too tight to cooperate.
Jammersix:
If you live in either metro Atlanta or Indianapolis I would be glad to spend a couple of hours teaching you how to properly adjust a Bailey handplane.
gdblake
Edited 3/18/2009 9:50 pm ET by gdblake
I appreciate the offer!Unfortunately, I'm in Seattle.
Excellent, G
"The only fix on those planes is to replace the yoke. I'm curious as to whether or not anyone else has noticed this problem."
I have only found that on those planes using the fabricated/laminated sheet steel y lever thing that the accountants must have designed, not on the solid cast lever.
I assume WR must be using a solid y lever/yoke. Failure to get that part right means not a design flaw but a failure to copy the design correctly. The whole idea of the y lever and cam type cap was to enable blade adjustment while the cap is pressurising the blade.
Same old story- you gets whats you pays for.....Philip Marcou
Phillip:
Yes, the WR planes have a solid yoke. Since these planes are merely knock offs, you are correct, they failed to copy the yoke properly. My calling it a design flaw suggests they put some thought into the yoke, which they clearly didn't. Its a shame really. Had WR properly copied the yoke and lateral adjuster these planes would perform significantly better. As they are, I fear too many people new to using hand planes will buy one of these, struggle to make fine adjustments to the iron, and assume they don't have the knack to get fine results.
gdblake
You guys think that everybody with a sharp tongue, a quick wit, and an opinion is "Charles."
Funny.
I like the notion of the Woodriver range. Why? Because there seems to be no reason to own them other than the need of a plane. No glitz, no gloats. Just a plane to use. No polishing and putting to bed at night. Use it hard, use it up. Who's gonna care? Nobody.
Love the hayrake table by the way. Really outstanding woodworking.
Edited 3/18/2009 6:30 am ET by BossCrunk
Not to sidetrack this thread, but who or what is Charles? Maybe a previous Knotter that was a bit negative about things? I see "Charles" come up occasionally, thought I'd ask.Thanks.Rich
You guys think that everybody with a sharp tongue, a quick wit, and an opinion is "Charles."
Nah, we don't. Some are Charles, some are Chas, some are Chuck, at least 1 is Chuckie, and there's even a CSTAN in there. But, they are all the same guy. Just several online personalities.
I'm curious if you change your clothes before you log out, and then log back in under a new name.
Heh...You and I are going to get along, Boss.Never heard of Charles, but I've decided to let these guys have their fantasies.After all, when a woman shows up here, I instantly assign her short, jet black hair, brown eyes and a deadly smile.So if these guys want to think of me as Charles, let them fantasize.As long as they don't expect me to answer to the name. That's just a little too weird, and I don't know them well enough for kink.Besides, I'd have to form the habit of listening for "Charles" instead of my name.
After all, when a woman shows up here, I instantly assign her short, jet black hair, brown eyes and a deadly smile.
And who really knows... Charles might look just like your very alluring description. I'm thinking of Lori Petty from the movie Point Break 'cept she has killer blue eyes.
Talking to onesself, again, Charlie............
Hello Domer,
Read some of the posts, lots of opinions. I bought the Wood river no. 5 to try.. 119 usd. Love it. I have a bronze LN no.3 and the skew block plane and the two side rabbet planes, Stanley's 4,5,6,7,8 some with hock blades, ulmia's and record. If you want to start woodworking, these WR are nice, good quality, thick blades, and affordable. I would rather have a WR block plane (70usd) a no. 4 and a no. 6 (109 & 129)and build things (that why your getting into woodworking, no?) than to have one LN no. 4. Cash flow is important, use what you have to buy wood. After you have made tons of money you can buy the expensive stuff. They are nice to have also, but the WR plane does as well as the others.
Cheers and have fun!
Jim
Jim,
Great message. Yours is the most important message in this thread, in that you are knowledgeable and have your own experience with the Wood River planes. It is good to hear that you have found them to be of good quality. I think your advice on having a number of Wood River planes and starting to do some real woodworking instead of getting a single LN or LV is EXCELLENT. Of course, nice words from me and about $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
and about $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. No Illinois sales Tax I assume?
Will George,
When I read your last message, I missed the photo, which was not in view on my computer. I read Tony's message and realized you had attached a photo. Beautiful Grandchildren! I am jealous. You have more than me.
MelPS do you think this thread will hit 1000? This could be a very important thread. From what I have heard today, the Wood River planes could be very good quality. We already know they are cheap. This combination could be the biggest thing to happen in woodworking tools in a long time. The implications for Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen could be enormous. Of course, none of this is as important as grandchildren. Yours are beautiful.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
none of this is as important as grandchildren. Yours are beautiful.
And I have 4 growed' up ones. Just one male.. He is OK also...
I handled a WR #5 at Woodcraft Sunday while picking up some Accuride drawer slides. I wanted to take it for a test spin but the work-shop-seminar room was full of folks learning to cut DT's. Maybe next time I visit. The plane was very nice. The iron appeared to be a bit thinner than the LN as I could not make a side by side comparison. Their LN's were locked in a glass case so... it was simply a visual after looking at one and walking over to look at the LN.
I cannot comment if the lateral adjustment lever will stay in place when planing as I really wanted to know. The plane appeared to be well made but not necessarily as well made as the LN. On a week-day I will make a closer comparison as I will ask for the LN case to be opened. They were very busy and I wasn't going to purchase anything except drawer slides so....
My conclusion at this point is I would not purchase the LN because of price nor would I purchase the WR as I have an Anant #5 with a Hock blade that I paid less for several years ago. I am not a hand plane worshipper.. simply a hand plane user and the one I currently have that "I" could afford works fine so.... I cannot make a justification on another #5 as I just don't need two. Life is simple.. I have no desire to find a way to complicate it.
To the shop where the only thing that really counts to me is end result which will not likely be determined by the brand of hand plane nor long haul quality of such that I have sitting on my shelf. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 3/31/2009 11:19 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,I'm planning on being in the Greensboro WC on Saturday, maybe I can "fondle" one of the WR's......... I do own an L-N 4 1/2. It's doubtful that I would have bought it myself, but it's a gift I will always treasure. It performs better (at least in my hands) than my highly-tuned-and-fettled-with-a-Hock-blade Stanley # 4, and it's no slouch. I believe this to be a mix of the smaller throat, increased length and breadth, and the increased weight. There's just not but so much more to the cut, is there? That being said, I don't own stuff just for looks, it has to perform (you oughta see my competition guns!). If the WR planes fill a void in both price and performance between, let's say, Stanley and L-N, then so be it. People are fettling old Stanleys and doing just as good a job as any plane ever made, and that is not contradictory of the statement above about my 4 1/2. A shaving/edge doesn't have to be mic'ed to be good enough. I doubt if I ever buy one of the WR's, but then, I doubt if I ever buy any more planes. I got enough. Well, maybe a nice #7...........Rambling mode off.RichPS Sarge, your last sentence is so true!
Edited 3/31/2009 11:46 am ET by Richard Jones
Sarge:When I got to try the #3, #4, and #6 the irons stayed firmly in position during a cut. The lateral adjustment basically worked fine, but the lateral adjuster is thin and tended to flex while setting the iron. I would be surprised if the lateral adjuster slipped on any WR plane during a cut.gdblake
I would be surprised if it slipped also, GD. It looks more substantial than the 3 Anant's I have which look terribly flimsy. But... the bottom line is they all work very well after some fiddling. Strange... an Anant #4 required almost no fettling.. the #5 required several hours.. the Anant Camel (Kamal) #7 which supposed to be a step up with brass knob.. thicker iron.. flatter bed.. etc. required the longest fettling.
Seems the engineers thickened the iron (which is good) but.. they forgot to compensate and widen the mouth resulting in the iron hitting the mouth bed. Total idiots must have showed up that day but... with several hours of work the thing now works like a charm.
I must be a glutton for abuse or.. more likely I like challenge which is a form of therapy for me. I should adopt the motto.. If they can't get it right.. by God... I can! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,
"I should adopt the motto.. If they can't get it right.. by God... I can"!
That sums you up Sarge - a chap above the common ruck wherein I dwell; a chap who can-do on many a front whilst the rest of us curse the Anant or Record before proceeding to the trash can with a scowl of dissatisfaction.
Now, when are you setting up as a WW can-do guru? I will attend the first seminar as honorary guest (no charge). :-)
Lataxe, who lazily gets posh tools instead (badly brought up I was).
Probably not anytime soon, Lataxe. I'm up to my neck in QSWO for a computer desk-hutch and the command for a matching oak swivel office chair has already been issued by the Commandant. You don't mess with the chain of command.
But.. I do get breaks every couple of hours so just bring a new machine or tool by my shop and we'll have it looking like a "hybrid" in no time at all. And a hybrid make-over would not be complete without an on-board hook for a roll of duct tape and a small shelf for super glue in case the going gets rough. When the going does get rough.. the tough turn to duct tape and super glue as a tourniquet to stop major bleeding until a proper repair can be done. Field expediency at it's best. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 4/1/2009 2:44 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
One thing about this debate struck me as kind of interesting after a visit to a local Woodcraft store to find some "I gotta have it now" hardware. The first pictures I saw on the 'net forums of WoodRiver planes looked almost exactly like a Lie-Nielsen, down to the brass lever cap.
Oddly enough (and this is the first time I've seen them in person), all of the WoodRiver planes at the local Woodcraft store had steel lever caps. So I'm wondering if either Lie-Nielsen threatened WoodCraft with a trade-dress lawsuit, the lawyers at Woodcraft told the engineers to change the lever cap out of fear of such a lawsuit (independently of Lie-Nielsen), or there's a "high end" version of WoodRiver that has a brass lever cap?
Should be interesting how all of it pans out, but unfortunately I've a good idea of how it'll wind up based on the average American's demand for cheap-at-all-costs. What I fear most is not so much that Lie-Nielsen will go under - there are too many of us that recognize that we're being taken advantage of by companies appealing to !cheap! What I fear is that Lie-Nielsen will feel the pressure and deciede to downgrade their own products, much as Stanley did after WWII.
From the few conversations that I've had with TLN, I doubt very much that he's interested in cheapening his product. I got the impression the first time I met him that he's all about quality, and I really don't think that will change.
I completely agree, though, that it would be a shame if it happens. We, woodworkers who understand the value in the product, and understand the "buy a tool once, buy the best you can" approach, would surely suffer if they either dumbed down the product, or went under, altogether.
That would be a shame.
Geoff,
I can't see Lie Nielsen and similar "going cheap" either. They are not made of that stuff, and would either pack up or go into something else to make to a decent standard, and leave the cheap stuff (plus the headaches) to the cheap skates. (Gawd save us all).Philip Marcou
To All:
This is an addendum to my earlier post which was based on getting my hands on #3, #4, and #6 WR planes in a Woodcraft up north. I am now back in Atlanta, needed a couple of things and went to the Woodcraft here. The Atlanta Woodcraft had a #5 out for customers to play with so I checked it out. To my surprise this plane worked flawlessly. The depth adjuster worked smoothly and the plane could be adjusted to tighten the mouth down to nothing (the same was true for a #3 they let me take out of the box and examine). In use, I could take as thin of shavings as possible with any plane I own or I could back the frog off, set the iron deep and hog off thick shavings without chatter. I checked the plane with a square, the sole was flat but the sides weren't square to the sole. This could be corrected with about an hour of lapping.
Given this experience was different from my earlier look at the WR planes I asked some questions of the store owner. Apparently what Mel has been posting is true, these planes are a work in progress and the planes I played with today are second generation. The mouths aren't milled as wide as the first release of these planes and the problem with the depth adjuster has been fixed. I was told the lateral adjuster is now being looked at and will be improved on future planes.
What is going on here is "Research and Development" at the expense of the public, which is one of the ways to keep costs down. Depending on how you choose to look at this, it is either a good thing or a bad thing. On the good side, eventually you will be able to buy a WR plane that is relatively inexpensive yet works extremely well. On the bad side, if you are one of the early buyers you got a functional plane though not as good of a plane had you waited.
gdblake
Well, at least they are willing to listen and make improvements. Contrast that to Stanley's unrelenting cheapening of it's planes over the past 50 years.
I also though their honesty regarding the nature of these planes was refreshing in their latest catalog (see attached).
gd,
"Apparently what Mel has been posting is true, these planes are a work in progress"Thanks for the nice words. I really have tried to get good (that is, accurate) information on the Wood River planes out to the Knots community. I will continue to do so. I could use a shoulder plane, so I am waiting anxiously for the Wood River shoulder plane to arrive.I find it interesting that the term "cheapies" keeps coming up in this thread. Obviously it is used in a derogatory way. Suppose I went to a garage sale and picked up two Marcous and a Holtey in perfect shape for $15 apiece. Could I refer to them as "cheapies"? I prefer to focus on the quality of a tool - that is, its ability to do what I want it to do, rather than focus on the price I bought it for. dkellenc recently sold a set of nine pristine cabinetmakers beading planes for about $400. Within 15 minutes, he got four emails wanting that set. Apparently someone got a set of "cheapies". Alternatively thought through, someone got a set of superb planes. We focus too much on price, and not enough on QUALITY. I am hoping that Wood River provides QUALITY AT A REASONABLE PRICE. Then our definition as to what is cheap and expensive will change. Have you ever gone through a wood tool store and made a mental list of "high priced junk"? That would make an interesting thread, wouldn't it. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"dkellenc recently sold a set of nine pristine cabinetmakers beading planes for about $400. Within 15 minutes, he got four emails wanting that set. Apparently someone got a set of "cheapies". Alternatively thought through, someone got a set of superb planes. We focus too much on price, and not enough on QUALITY.
I am hoping that Wood River provides QUALITY AT A REASONABLE PRICE. Then our definition as to what is cheap and expensive will change."
Actually, Mel, I sold the set for $325 - they were worth about $400. Oh well, that's not a crushing mistake.
Your comment about quality at a reasonable price is, in a sense, what the debate is all about. In my opinion, there's nothing expensive or unreasonable about either Lee Valley's offerings nor Lie Nielsens. In fact, for what you get, they're downright cheap, and easily fit the budget of the vast majority of woodworkers.
That said, there's an element to our society that is always looking for unreasonable prices - unreasonably cheap prices, that is. I've met a number of individuals with this attitude, and it's characterized by an emotional response to the price of an object - generally elation when they luck into something that's priced far below the market, and a feeling of animosity towards retailers - that they're being taken advantage of by any price, for even the cheapest and poorest quality object. It is this attitude that some companies respond to, and results in shenanigans like name-brand tools at the big-box stores with exactly the same model number as more traditional outlets but different UPC codes - and considerably cheaper and lower quality components.
Many, many of us find this sort of emotional attachment to getting what's percieved as a bargain on absolutely everything as very distasteful, and the direction that businesses go in response very unfortunate.
David,
I sure wish I would have known about your set of pristine beaders. I would have bought them in a flash. I am in California right now, visiting my oldest son and his wife. Today we spent the day at Half Moon Bay, watching the surfers and enjoying the sun. This is not the environment to get worked up about about the cost of Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley tools. It is far too relaxed and laid back out here. Heck, I said "Hi" to one person, and he responded "You too?" Yuk yuk. Old joke, but still appropriate. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The thread kind of died... Popular Woodworking has a review of Wood River and Borg planes in their latest issue. Essentially the rate it as an improvement over the cheapies, but not in the league of Lie Nielsen or Veritas. Mid-range as their price would indicate.
When the local Woodcraft started carrying them, the store manager gave us (the Kansas City Woodworkers Guild) a #8 to test drive. We happened to be having a "hand tool workshop" that particular Saturday. One of our testers is a member who has been making a living for many years building reproduction antique and fine furniture. Mac (the member) uses many antique tools on a daily basis. He doesn't own any Lie-Nielsons, but has a pretty impressive collection of old Bedrocks and Stanley's. We ran this plane through the paces, dis-assembled it, examined the machining, etc. After tuning up the factory blade, we used it on Walnut, Mahogany and finally some extremely hard Curly Hard Maple. This Wood River plane impressed everyone who used it. For the price, it is a fabulous tool for anyone who can't afford the LN or LV. If I could afford the LN or LV tools, I would own them. The next best thing for me would be the Wood River line. My personal favorite is to find old Stanley's and Bedrocks and restore them. After all, those old planes were around being used by craftsmen when none of the power tools we have today existed. Do you need to spend $300+ for a plane or can you make a $50 garage sale find do the same job? Only you can be the judge.
While I hate to agree... I just looked up the Wood River Planes.
The basic plane kit is usually presented as a Jointer, Smoother, Block, and shoulder. Wood river doesn't appear to have a#7 or #8 jointer or shoulder plane available at this time. So a fair comparison would be #6, #4 and a Block. A woodriver set would cost $307, less than the cost of a LN #4! The LN set would cost $890, and the Veritas kit would cost $629. Having bought used stanley #7, #4, and a block planes I was only in around $100, but of course they're in need of TLC.
All this said... I do love my LN planes.
Scared me for a second;
http://www.reuters.com/article/CMPTRS/idUSBNG17726720090604
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