I am new to the wood carving aspect of woodworking. I am looking for advice on what chisels to purchase. Also, does anyone know of a good online course for wood carving training?
ursa
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Replies
Ursa,
Consider the advice and free tutorials on Chris Pye's web site:
http://chrispye-woodcarving.com/
He covers what to purchase first and if I recall correctly, in the tutorials mentions what additional tools would be used for the tutorial's subject.
Take care, Mike
Mwenz
Thanks for the info. Have you hear of David Calvo? He offers a class for $700.00 but you have to buy a set of Two Cherry chisels for another $700.00. Just wanted to know if you knew of this guy....
Ursa
I've seen his articles.
I suspect Calvo does not require the purchase of TC tools. I might be wrong, though. I personally would not go to a school that had such a requirement. It's not that those are poor tools--they are good tools. Just that I prefer a choice. It is the widths and sweeps of the gouges and chisels that are more important to the techniques and specific examples he will be teaching.
However, if one is taking a class from him and if one does not have tools already, the TC tools would serve them well.
Take care, Mike
I have taken several classes from David Calvo at his studio in Gloucester (wonderful venue by the way). It is absolutely not true that you **have** to buy chisels from him. Many students bring their own. And the classes were instrumental to me in developing proper carving technique, habits and 'eye' - well worth the price for anyone serious about learning classic carving. The guy is a master at the craft and an artist.
Thanks so much for the reply. I am seriously thinking about taking a course from him this summer.
Thanks
Norm
I don't know of an online course -- it's a long process learning from videos -- much better if you can to take a hands-on course from somebody competent. You don't say what area you're in. Calvo's in the Boston area, Nora Hall in Michigan, but many carvers will travel to different areas if there's enough of a demand.
You'll get recommendations for just about every brand of tool. It's best, if you can, to try out various brands at a class and find what suits you. I don't know Two Cherries carving chisels, but I don't particularly like their regular chisels -- more effort seems to go into polishing them than to making sure that they're ready for use. Nora Hall recommends a different German maker, and offers his tools for sale, but certainly doesn't insist that you buy them. Are you sure that Calvi does? sounds odd to me. Chris Pye, who's in Britain, doesn't sponsor a particular maker, though Ashley Iles does make one particular design to his specifications. Pfeil is perhaps the most recommended brand, but Pye doesn't like their V-tools. There's no reason, other than comfort, why you should stick with one brand.
It's been said often enough that there's no such thing as a universal beginner's set. Out of desperation I started with one (Ashley Iles) and have very rarely used a couple of the chisels. I've added (many) others as required for different projects. What you need will depend on whether you're doing low relief for furniture, lettering, carving in the round, etc. Pye, Hall etc. will usually tell you what tools you need for the projects they'll be teaching, and you can use this as a base. Both have videos available if you want to check out what their approach is. Take all this for what it's worth -- I'm a lowly amateur.
Jim
ursa,
the first obstacle i needed to overcome when i began to carve was how to sharpen the various chisel profiles. this was not easy. i cannot speak for anyone but me and i may not be right. if i had not had someone show me how, i would have been long in finding my own way. for me the main problem was maintaining a correct and consistent bevel. it is easy to inadvertently hone a double bevel. the most difficult chisel to sharpen was, for me, the parting tool or v-chisel. i spent much time learning to sharpen and it was time well-spent.
after sharpening, learning how to cut with the grain and avoid tearing the wood, i.e. achieving smooth cuts, was the next challenge.
i was very fortunate to have a teacher. perhaps others can learn on their own. books help, videos help but having somone show and instruct was very important for me.
eef
Hi Ursa,
The Marc Adams School of Woodworking in central Indiana usually has several week long course on woodcarving every year. It's a great school and the instructors are excellent.
Neil
There is a very active member on the Creek site that has many tutorials for starting carving. There is also quite a bit of discussion there about which tools to start out with. I purchased the Nora Hall DVD and found that very helpful.
Brad
Ursa,
Glad you want to get into carving. The questions you asked about how to get started have been asked here on Knots hundreds of times. (Maybe more). I have been carving since 1968. WHen I started, I hadn't read anything about carving. I bought a set of 12 Two Cherries carving gouges and a mallet and a single sharpening stone (a Wa$hita stone) and one slip (a Hard Arkansas). I bought all of these things from a catalog and had no idea what I was doing. I started carving with tools that I now know were dull, and I progressed rapidly (using dull tools that actually cut, only not as good as mine do now). I had no lessons and no books. I just saw things I wanted to carve, and I carved them. I seem to have survived this disorganized introduction to carving. Now 40 years later, I carve almost every day.
Of course, now I have lots of books on carving, and have read and studied every one that I have. I love the books. They disagree with each other on which tools to buy and how to sharpen them and how to use them. My conclusion after all of this, is that any of them will help. Later you will figure out what works for you.
Once I made an Excel spreadsheet of about 20 woodcarvers' suggestions as to the first set of gouges you should buy. I would be happy to send it to you, but everyone that I have given it to finds it to be VERY frustrating. There is almost no overlap in what the experts recommend. It doesn't take long to figure out what. Mostly, it doesn't make much difference. The reasons are:
1) any set of cuts can be made using many different gouges.
2) each gouge can be used in different ways.
Most new carvers long for simple answers on which set to buy first, and on which book to buy, and on who to study with. It doesn't make much difference. Mike Wentzloff mentioned Chris Pye's website. Chris Pye is the most prolific author on carving today. He also has a series of DVDs that he did with Rob Cosman. Chris's views on lots of things, such as Letter Carving, are not widely shared. Other master carvers use much different methods. Someone mentioned Nora Hall. She has a series of DVDs also. She does letter carving much different than Chris does.
But it doesn't matter whose book you start with. After a while you will discard what doesn't work for you, and stick with what does work for you. How you do it doesn't make much difference. What makes a difference is how well you do and how much you enjoy it.
I find Chris Pye to be a nice guy, but I don't like his DVDs. I don't believe they were well thought through, and you cant get much from them unless you also have his books.
My suggestion is to skip the expensive lessons from Calvo (a great carver) or any of the other great carvers. You can get more for your money by spending it on equipment. I suggest you get any of the books that takes you through a set of carving exercises, and that tells you what gouges the author would use for each. There are two good books that do this. The first on my list is Dave Butz's How to Carve book. Dave taught on TV for decades and you can still find him on PBS. You can get his book on Amazon or at Woodcraft. He covers: whittling, relief carving, carving in the round, chip carving, letter carvingg, and architectural carving. No other book gives you such breadth. You can go through the chapters in any order you want, and you can skip whichever you want. I'd suggest starting with the chapter on relief carving. It is the best sequence of carvings for the beginner that I have found anywhere, and Butz does a good job of explaining and he has lots of photos. For each carving, he tells you which gouges you need.
The other guy who gives you a set of carvings and tells you which gouges you need for each is Chris Pye. The nice thing about Dave and Chris' approach is that you will learn how to use the set of gouges that you buy for use with that book.
There are lots of DVDs on carving out there. You can find them in Google. Dozens of great carvers have made them. I have four of Nora Hall's and all of Chris Pye's. Of the two, I like Nora's much much better, but I am not wild about them. They can't hurt, and it does help to watch someone else carve. Both of them are wonderful carvers. If I were you, I'd get two or three DVDs, one at a time, from different carvers. That will be fun and useful. It doesn't matter which. It is good to get a variety rather than all by the same person.
I have confused you completely, I am sure. But that is the way it is with carving. A great Virginia Carver, Fred Wilber, says that no one can teach you to carve. He cays you teach yourself to carve, as you get eperience. I have read almost everyone's carving books, and I have carved for decades. I believe Fred is correct in his assessment. No one else shoots as straight as Fred does on this point.
I recommend you get Dick Butz's book, and buy the gouges as you undertake each carving in the sequence on relieve carving. That way, you don't have to buy them all at once.
Most modern carvers recommend the gouges by Pfeil. They are called "Swiss Made". You can always find them on EBay. Woodcraft sells them. So do lots of others. I use them, but that is because I have a part time job at Woodcraft and get a good discount. I think they are excellent. But I still have my original set of Two Cherries. They are good also. My guess is that all of the major brands are just fine. No need to have all from the same maker.
If you want my Excel spreadsheet, let me know. If you want me to give you opinions on any questions, just ask. Sorry about the length. You asked difficult questions.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
Thank you! I realy like your approach.... I am ordering the "How to Carve" today. I do have another question. I am very good at sharpening bevel and bench chisels but have not tried to sharpen gouges. Can you recomend how I might get started? Yes, I would love that spreadsheet.
URSA
[email protected]
URSA,Glad you liked my response. I think you will like Butz's book. Let me know if you have questions as you go through it. I know the book pretty well. I recommend that you scan the first part of the book, and then skip the chapters on chip carving and whittling. The chip carving chapter uses a very old style that has been replaced by Wayne Barton's style. If you ever get interested in chip carving, I recommend Barton's latest book, which is a compilation of his earlier books. I recommend you focus on the chapter on relief carving first. The first carving is a simple flower that lots of books use for the first project. It is a good way to start. Then he gives you a project that looks complex, but it is not. It looks fancy but the new or hard part is cutting the outline, which is not so hard. The carving very good looking, but is not very deep. The third carving is a very deep and large "S curve", which is a great learning experience. It takes some work, but is basic to lots of furniture carving. Then you really get to the good stuff - a nice piece of heraldry. IT is a masterpiece, and he shows you how to do it -step by step. Finally he gives you two more designs but doesn't tell you how to do them because you have learned the skills in the earlier projects. You should be able to work through those projects in a few months, and by then you will be well on your way to becoming a good carver. All you will need is more practice -- which is fun. Don't worry about making mistakes. They happen all the time, and you find ways to get around them. Just keep carving, and having fun.SO what about sharpening ------ That is not an easy question. You have a few flat chisels, both straight and skewed. They are done just like regular woodworking chisels. Then there are the gouges. I use oilstones on my carving tools. I don't use waterstones because they "dish" too quickly, especially on narrow tools, and I don't like to get my gouges wet. The oilstones work well. I recommend a soft and a hard Arkansas stone, and a soft and a hard Arkansas slip, which can be used on a v-tool on one side, and on the other side, the rounded edge goes from narrow to wide. There are very common. All carving stores sell them. I like the Norton brand, but others work well.Butz shows you how to sharpen your gouges using oilstones.Then there are the V tools. Those are very difficult to learn to sharpen. Luckily there is a free pamphlet on how to do it. You can find it on Chris Pye's website. Look under sharpening. If you cant find it, let me know, and I will look it up and send you the exact address. It takes a while to understand that pamphlet, but it is the best thing I have seen on how to sharpen the V tools.I will send you my Excel spreadsheet on who recommends which gouges as starter kits. You will get a kick out of it, but find it frustrating. The set that Butz recommends is a very good way to start. You can buy them all at once, or as you need them for each of the projects in the chapter on relief carving. Have fun, Keep in touch. I am heppy to help and to answer questions.
Good to have another carver in Knots.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
URSA,
I am putting up two posts. This one contains my Excel spreadsheet on the recommendations of various carvers as to the first set of gouges to get. The next one contains the same spreadsheet, but as a pdf document. It has two pages. Not all of it would fit on one page when I converted it.Both the Excel spreadsheet and the PDF of it are identical.There are about 14 columns. one for each carver who has made recommendations.The rows are the various types of gouges.
Each gouge is named with two numbers separated by a dash. The sweeps are first, and the widths in millimeters are second. So a 3-12 is a #3 sweep gouge with a 12 mm width. You will also see Long bends, short bends, V tools Back Bends, chisels and skewed chisels. All chisels can be single or double beveled. For carving, most are double beveled. I know this is complex. It is pretty standard. I don't know how else to put all these lists on one or two pages. Please let me know if you have any questions. Ray Pine is a professional woodworker who specializes in Chippendale furniture. You will see names you have heard of: Nora Hall, Chris Pye, and a load of other big name carvers.Let me know what you think. By the way, if you cant open the Excel spreadsheet, try the pdf file of it in the next post.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mell you are something.. I open it up and had on idea what it ment!
URSA,
Here is the spreadsheet in pdf format. It should be easier to open. When the pdf converter operated on my Excel spreadsheet, it made it into two pages. Oh well. Just print them out and put the second one on the right of the first and all will be well.Then all you have to do is figure out what it all means.It took a long time to amass all of these lists and put them together. Having done it, I have learned a lot. The main thing I have learned is that everybody uses different sets of gouges. Actually these guys are all professionals, and most of them have a lot of gouges. These are only their recommendations for the first set. Nora Hall has produced at least two sets of recommendations in different publications. YOu will see them both.I think as long as you have a variety of them, the details are irrelevant. But since you are going to get and use the Butz book, you should use his set of recommendations.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
Wow! Thanks again for all of your info. It is helping me enjoy the learning process a lot more. You are a wealth of info.
Peace
Hope to talk soon! God knows I will have questions.
URSA,
Go get em!
There is a lot of wood out there.
It MUST BE CARVED!!!!
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel is giving some great advice, especially the part about learning it yourself. I also have Butz's book and do like the part about relief carving. I was fortunate to take a class from Nora Hall way back when I started carving and learned a few very important basic things from her, then was able to jump off on my own. I heartily agree that this is the way to go, taking a class from someone who really knows what they're doing, then carve, carve, carve.The most important thing I learned from Nora was how to hold the chisel. This was crucial for safety but also for absolute technique. I have total control over depth of cut, speed of cut, direction of cut. Here's a good photo reference:http://www.valdressamband.org/images/2007/DSC_0137.JPGYou actually use both hands to move and control the tool, and with a little practice you can easily be ambidextrous. I have not yet had a mishap involving flesh and blood from carving. (I have, however, suffered the dreaded stupid move of reflexively catching a dropped tool. Repeat after me: "it's easier to resharpen a gouge than to get stitches...."Also, somewhere on Chris Pye's website, http://chrispye-woodcarving.com/, he has a few notes about what tools to select first. Worth reading even if you don't follow it.Good luck and have fun.Carlos
Carlos,
Nothing like some experience with a real carver. It is a good way to start. I love Nora's work.
THanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That spreadsheet is actually useful to me, Mel. Thanks for posting it. It opened up fine in Numbers on the Macintosh (a different spreadsheet than Excel).For the original poster (and Mel): Charles Marshall Sayers offers a minimalist approach toward teaching beginners (or allowing beginners to educate themselves, as the case may be), in "The Book of Wood Carving: Technique, Designs and Projects" (New York: Dover Publications, 1978). He focuses on only five carving tools. Most of the carving exercises are relief carvings and many are borders which can be used as moldings and such for larger woodworking projects. Good luck."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ed,
Glad my spreadsheet was useful to you. Feel free to pass it on. It is a great conversation starter.
I will look up the book you referred to by Charles Sayers. It sounds very good.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ursa,
On the sharpening of chisels aspect.....
This seemed to me to be the necessary first step to learn, as it must surely be much more difficut to learn carving of wood if the chisels lack the right edge and bevel.
As with all other activities, practice on real chisels with real shrpening gubbins is the best way to learn - backed up by a bit of relevant book-larnin' or even a demonstration via DVD or class. Being wary of buggering up the business end of good quality carving chisels, I bought a set of really cheap ones to practice on.
I avoided those cheapies made of ticky-tacky and got a set of 12 that had decent quality steel in the blades. They came from a British WW retailer who sells what are probably Chinese-made items under the Dakota brand. 12 for £25 (about $40). These came with bevels shaped on a grinder, which provided the basic profile and angle but left a striated hollow grind on the bevels and no usable sharpness.
I used Arkansas slip stones, diamond hones and microgrit papers wrapped over various diameters of dowel to play with the chisels' edges and eventually learnt a lot about how to get a slight covex bevel, how to achieve a polish, how to avoid flats and so forth. I also experimented with small second bevels on the inside or top of the blades, to strengthen the cutting edges. Finally I tried some simple carving to see how the bevel angles held up and how to rehone as dullness begins to manifest.
Although I'm still very much a novice at sharpening I feel that I now have enough ability to keep better quality carving chisels well-sharp. This means that when I come to learn carving in-anger, I won't be struggling because of dull or badly-formed edges and I can concentrate on learning how to go with grain, form shapes, etc..
****
It's often said that woodworkers tend to plunge into making the real piece without practicing new techniques first. We learn as we go. I've certainly done this and sometimes even managed to fix the many errors caused by lack of practice.
But carving seems to demand a certain set of base abilities before you can produce anything like an acceptable product. So, I have adopted this more disciplined learning approach and feel a lot more confident about future progress in carving as a result.
Lataxe
You wrote "My suggestion is to skip the expensive lessons from Calvo .... I suggest you get any of the books ...." I couldn't disagree more! There is just NO SUBSTITUTE for spending time with a master. I fiddled around with carving books for years and never got a fraction of what I learned from David Calvo in three days (and I have since taken several other classes from him). Carving is a multi-dimensional and dynamic skill; a book simply cannot convey the layers of information involved. And a book does not observe and give feedback - critical steps in learning a complex art. My advice, if you want to get a sound foundation in carving and get satisfying results, find a teacher.
Greg,
I guess that all of us are different. I find that I learn well by trying things myself, and by using good books. There are some excellent books on carving by excellent carvers. I have a number of them, and have little trouble following them and getting the tasks done. Others, like yourself, find it more comfortable to learn in the presence of a master. To each his own.I have gotten a number of people started in carving by recommending a book and some gouges and I saw the folks once in a while thereafter to answer a few questions. They all seemed to be happy learning on their own. From the looks of their projects they were doing pretty well. There is a saying in flying, "The purpose of the instructor is to keep you alive while you teach yourself to fly." Ask some pilots and see what they think of that one. I have my license, and I believe it is more true than the opposite. Same with any complex psychomotor skill such as carving. I find that there are many trying to learn carving or woodwork who fear trying to teach themselves. That is the reason we need people to teach.Here is an interesting second point. I believe if you spent a week with a "master" and a week with someone who had just learned how to carve, you might learn better and more from the one who has just learned. In Physics and Math, for example, kids can learn more readily from someone who has just mastered the stuff than from someone who learned it 40 years ago. Those are my experiences. Yours are different. That what makes life interesting. Glad to make your acquaintance. Hope to see your carvings sometime.Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel.. My reply to you comments..
If I took the Classes and read ALL the books I would still carve like this little child with a Hoola Hoop! I laughted till I cried on this one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4bCmKGxMaA
OK, So I had fun and did not have a carving worth a hoot!
MEL .. Or others in here!
I was just funnn' ya' a bit... But I did love that video I posted.
I will ask a favor from you..And maybe Kiddervile.. Now in public I suppose you have to respond! LOL!
I try to carve BUT.. I am me... I cannot carve! Period.! .. OK, so one Elephant I did thet my daughter that said 'just loved it'. I'd bet she hides it someplace in the dark..
My neighbor is a REAL native american... The family is about as nice as anyone could have as neighbors.. HO-CHUNK from Wisconson.
I have a PNG file that I cannot to get to carve (Yes on my CaverWright) !
OK, so I got IT to do the carvings on my China Dolls beds I am making. TWO beds with different carvings.. They are My Sweethearts!
No expence FOR THIS MAN is greater than my Chian Girls. Ok, EXCEPT for my Wife,,
For one or two free works at chip carving I would be especial gratefuL. All ya get is a big HUG from me!
I have a probe that can scan the carvin.
My image is just this... I can send my original file as Png,
pm by WillGeorge
Edited 4/24/2009 3:48 pm by WillGeorge
William George,
"I try to carve BUT.. I am me... I cannot carve! Period"!
I am very surprised to hear you issue this self-fulfilling prophecy about yoursen. Surely you are not one of these modern fellows with a short-little-attention-span and an MTV attitude of I-want-it-now, who cannot tolerate the rigours and effort necessary in learning a complex skill such as carving? Surely you are not the kind of chap who will only try to learn things that take 1/2 a day and the use of a mere 79 brain cells?
No, no - this cannot be the WillG that we know so well.
Perhaps you need a carving class from a master to accelerate you into proficiency? :-)
Lataxe, who is himself hoping to see that Chris Pye for some lesuns.
Sir Lataxe..
self-fulfilling prophecy about yoursen. Surely you are not one of these modern fellows with a short-little-attention-span and an MTV attitude of I-want-it-now, who cannot tolerate the rigours and effort necessary in learning a complex skill such as carving?
LOL... Now, that was the classic you. Straight to the point!
Instant gratification to me is a glass of liquid gold using spring water from the Clynemilton burn to produce this fruity, slightly smoky Single Malt Scotch Whisky.
http://www.scotlandwhisky.com/distilleries/highlands/Clynelish
lataxe,
oh to see chris pye...
looking back (but not too far) i could not have learned,how to learn, had it not been for a teacher. the teacher helped me skip past the useless efforts i had made on my own. useless because there is a better way. wisdom is always born of experience. the teacher helped me to get to experience what was important.
eef
Eef
The teacher is not the only scource of experience. Trial and error not to mention general observation. We do learn from experience, this does not assure wisdom.
Norm
hey norm,
the teacher has been where i want to go. the teacher knows the pit-falls when learning grain direction, when so much is too much, sharpening, when to stop cut and when not to, etc. by following the teacher's guidance, one can cut-to-the-chase on many issues. trial and error and keen observation are more beneficial when a teacher is in the mix. there's alot to learn!
eef
Yes all that you say is correct. So the teacher can stop you before you make the mistake. There is something to be said for mistakes. Everything you say is correct. I believe that teachers are essential. But they are not the only way. Is it a shortcut or a way to avoid mistakes! Maybe! It depends on how the process works for they individual.
Great Chatting
Cheers
Norm
I have been carving for 6 or 7 years. I started out with chip carving and after a while, I bought some Pfeil carving tools and a load of books and went to work on relief and in-the-round carving. I made progress and could see improvement from one piece to the next, but I knew my work was clearly amateurish. Last summer I spent a week with a master carver learning some of his techniques and I can say without doubt that this had made the biggest difference in the quality of my carving. If I hadn't spent the time learning on my own, I would not have been able to absorb as much as I did when I was in his class. But with that said, I learned techniques that I never would have discovered from a book. There were three other carvers there during that week, and it was a pleasure to work together in a peaceful atmosphere (Beethoven was sometimes playing in the background) and to learn from them as well. One thing I learned was that there are no mistakes...just "design opportunities." Most mistakes can usually be corrected fairly easily if you don't panic. I remember cutting too deeply and accidentally removing part of a design I was working on. I thought the piece was ruined, but Demitrios came by, deepened the background slightly, and re-carved the portion I had removed. Problem solved. The class gave me a lot more confidence in my carving and made it more fun too.Jim
Wow! Your comments are very informative. I am very much seeking a teacher. Thanks for you thoughts.
Norm
I went to Dimitrios Klitsas in Massachusetts. He's a great guy, friendly, informative and low key. I understand that some instructors have you spend the first couple of days learning to sharpen, and that wasn't what I wanted to do with my week. Dimitrios showed me how he sharpens his chisels and I picked up the technique quickly. After that, it was all carving.Jim
You(Mel) wrote "My suggestion is to skip the expensive lessons from Calvo ....
I suggest you get any of the books ...." I couldn't disagree more! There is just NO SUBSTITUTE for spending time with a master. I fiddled around with carving books for years and never got a fraction of what I learned from David Calvo in three days (and I have since taken several other classes from him). Carving is a multi-dimensional and dynamic skill; a book simply cannot convey the layers of information involved. And a book does not observe and give feedback - critical steps in learning a complex art. My advice, if you want to get a sound foundation in carving and get satisfying results, find a teacher.(gregon7)
Here's another spin: get a book read it over, try a little hands on testing then consider a teacher. That's a low risk/low investment before you book a flight and make hotel arrangements.
I took a week long boatbuilding course years ago after I had been building furniture for 10 years. I was not prepared for the jump to the boatbuilding world even though it was woodworking, chisels, saws, etc. The vocabulary was all new and the concepts were indeed unique. Lofting?Spiling? If I had not read books and viewed some film prior to going to the class I would have been drinking from a fire hose or just missing lots of connections. Truthfully, I need to go back and get some other things in order.
dan
Check out this site woodcarving lessons, http://homepage.mac.com/walterc530/
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