I ran across this article a while back and it stuck with me. In a nutshell the author examined the shift from quality to fashion for consumer goods, and then examined some of the influences.
One part is particular resonated:
“As human beings we’ve been socialized to buy and save,” Nissanoff says. “In times not as prosperous as today, when we didn’t know where our next food or source of supplies would come from, our ancestors bought things with the notion of holding on to them for as long as they could and then passing them on to the next generation.”
In essence: Our forefathers were poorer than we are, and yet they had better stuff, relatively speaking.
But appreciation for quality craftsmanship has been swept aside by freely available consumer credit and high-end design on low-cost merchandise, says Dayana Yochim, personal finance writer at The Motley Fool.
“Credit cards let us instantly satisfy our retail desires,” Yochim says. “Our grandparents had to delay that gratification. They figured that if they had to save for it, they’d better get the best they could. Now retailers want to catch that fleeting desire.”
Obviously given the events of the last week it would be easy to pin consumer culture on cheap credit, an argument that could be extended by those who rail against these things, globalization. My point is about neither.
I’ve watched over the years as technology (for the record, I was a venture capitalist for 10 years so I’m no neophyte, luddite, or any other type of it “ite”, I’m just a guy who has watched the march of technology and managed to secure a few opinions about the dangers of worshipping it in the absence of other needs being met with equal proportion) has overtaken other aspects of product design competencies.
Two other points first. I’m not one who suggests that “in the good ‘ol days things were better” as a general rule. Some things yes, but I’ll take my 2008 F-150 over a 1968 any day, not only is it more reliable but also comfortable, better on the environment and a hell of a lot safer to drive around in. Similarly, many appliances not only feature extensive feature update but also have better reliability… but obviously not all things. The Maytag Neptune washer/dryer that we bought 5 years ago are crap and I replaced them (LG Steam washer/dryer if you are interested) while my parents had their 25 year old Maytags running strong until last year. Technically they were better than older models but failed well before they should have.
Secondly, I do not subscribe to the notion that made in China (or Korea or Japan or Indonesia or Thailand, etc.) is anything to scoff at. I’ve done a lot of business in that part of the world and my wife runs a company that manufactures in China for metals, plastics/resins, and stitch-and-sew, and her clients (name brand luxury fashion goods firms) tell her they simply can’t find domestic manufacturers that can meet her quality. If it can be manufactured it can be manufactured to high specs in Asia, and there are few examples that disprove that rule.
However, there is a difference between quality in manufacturing and quality in design and on this point there many shortcomings in modern products. For example, the Porter Cable router that I have which was redesigned to use a .15 cent switch that fails rather than the old .20 cent toggle that lasts literally forever. Any product that fails because a cheaper part was spec’ed that causes a systems failure is a human failure that could have been avoided.
I am also somewhat curious about what point in time people stopped having things repaired. Is it a deep seated fear that once one part breaks you have crossed a precipice upon which repeated failures are a certainty? Why don’t many power tools have the ability to replace the motor brushes? Is it because people won’t do it therefore why incur the design and mfg cost to build it in, or is it because manufacturers don’t expect you have something long enough to wear out brushes?
Lastly, I want to talk about cordless power tools… both a gift from above a a bane of my existence, in equal parts. My 18v Milwaukee cordless drill gave up it’s fancy lithium ion battery recently and the cost to replace is half of the cost of the drill itself. Given that one battery has died, it’s certain the other is not far behind but the cost to replace two batteries is almost as much as buying a new kit, therefore what I will do is chuck (no pun intended) the drill and two batteries (recycle) and buy a new drill with 2 batteries. That’s wasteful and emblematic of what has gone haywire in our consumer culture, we throw away perfectly good things just because of expediency.
But consumers alone are not to blame on this issue, as I have no doubt that some fresh out of school Wharton MBA grad worked up a pretty compelling pricing model that Milwaukee uses to maximize total unit shipments. In other words, two batteries really can’t be equivalent in cost/price to two batteries and a complete drill, right? Beyond the cost issue, what good is cordless technology bringing the market in this instance if the technology isn’t capable of delivering more than 2 years of use?
Thanks for reading my rant, I’m not sure what conclusion I would draw but I think we are at a threshold which will determine how we value products and brands in the future. Will we pursue low cost at all costs or deviate into a longer ownership expectation that runs counter to current culture trends. I have a glimmer of hope that consumers will once again value products on something more than what it costs to buy them.
Replies
Woodman,
I fully empathize with your angst with the notion that it is better to replace than to repair.
Just when this idea became acceptable, I don't really know. When I was growing up, my parents' generation was much of the belief that something should be fixed over and over again until it was simply beyond any hope. Over the years, that ideology seems to have been replaced with the notion that "newer is better", so why bother to fix....
A big part of the issue lies, I believe, with designers/engineers/ corporations that have decided that there is greater profit in selling new devices rather than in selling replacement parts. The obvious way to accomplish this goal is to design the device such that it becomes expensive/difficult/impossible to repair it, either by making the replacement parts so expensive that the customer decides "to h..... with it", or by designing the components such that replacing the defective part becomes, for all practical purposes, impractical (by making it part of an integrated assembly, for example).
What can we do about it? Frankly, I don't know, other than to look for the best quality goods on the market rather than the cheaper "knock-offs" from some off-shore factory (or domestic, for that matter??....).
As far as woodworking equipment is concerned, I believe it makes good sense to look for well-known and highly-reputable brands, regardless of cost (within reason) rather than encouraging the "use-it-once-throw-it-away el-cheapos). Sadly, it is often hard to extrapolate to other areas and expect to find quality. For example, we bought a VCR/DVD player/recorder not long ago from a well-established and long-known brand name, and got little more than a beautiful piece of junk :(
Maybe, in the end, all the huff and puff we are hearing about the "travails" on Wall Street will have a beneficial effect on this "disposable" mentality we have been brainwashed into believing is the way to being "cool".... I don't know, other than to become more and more demanding of the vendors of the garbage facing us.
I share your distress, but like you, feel like just another lonely coyote in the wilderness :)
Cheers,
Ted
Do not >chuck (no pun intended) the drill !
Keep it and run two bits using your two batteries. They recharge in less than an hour right?
I have gotten more than five years from my DeWalts knock on wood. I even use them all winter (shorter days/get off after dark) in my bicycle light for commuting (so does my partner). Just use regular spade and socket connecters spread open a bit.
Speaking of your subject and bicycles I am waiting for someone to say "I had a flat tire on my bike so I went and bought a new one". I here the Saudis do that if they get a flat on their BMW auto but that is a different rant . . . or is it?
Interestingly I had an old Dremel tool that I bought at a hardware store that I worked at in the 1970's. I put an extra long cord on it. I got it so hot cutting two small slots in a car bumper in the 1980's that it was smoking. It never stopped cutting though. I used it a whole lot after that ! Ironically just a few years ago I bought one of the router bases for it so I could use it in my wood work and only used it twice for a short time and it gave one flash and died. It was a metal worker till the end.
My other later Dremel with speed control built in is a piece of crap. If we are going to resort to technical language. It vibrates, speed control is loose and varies from the vibration etc.
>hope that consumers will once again value products on something more than what it costs to buy them.
here here !
Every time I hear someone mention Harbor Freight I want to throttle them. People who buy that stuff shouldn't be allowed to propagate.
"Every time I hear someone mention Harbor Freight I want to throttle them. People who buy that stuff shouldn't be allowed to propagate."Conversely, Festool owners should go forth and multiply! :-)
>Festool owners should go forth and multiply!Well at least they know how to get their hands on plenty of money. That is a good first step in raising a family. But then again they may be broke like me from buying all those expensive tools. Probably best in any case to just stay in the shop and stay out of trouble.
Roc,
Can you show a short list of expensive tools- bearing in mind what you can do with them, how they came to be made, how long they will outlast you by, and the amount of creativity they will generate. Not to mention your staying off the street ....Philip Marcou
>short list of expensive toolsI'll show you mine if you show me yours. You first.
Roc,
I don't have a list. Good tools are priceless to me. I have had very few expensive tools-these were errors in judgement and turned out to be unequal to the job-didn't cost much $ wise but the price to my self esteem was high. There you go -work that out.
P.S. I also journeyed to town on my bicycle armed with life savings, aged 16 to buy my first electric drill- it was the Millers Falls item with 3/8ths chuck that ran at the impractical speed of 2800rpm- becuase it was supposed to also power the lathe, saw and other attachments.That drill made an excellent disc sander though.
Philip Marcou
Festool, Hmm. They seem to make very nice tools. But they are so expensive. If I did this stuff for a living, I could probably justify the cost, but this is a hobby. If I started bringing in tools like that my wife would have my head. So, I have to do with something lesser, like PC, DW, etc. I have to agree, though that people do seem to be taken in to satisfy their desire now, and compromise on quality. When I first started woodworking, I went out and bought a bunch of stuff from Sears; a router, a sander, an electric drill, and some accessories. The drill was a variable speed which lasted a month. The other tools didn't last too much longer. I bought them because the tools my father bought from them shortly after WWII lasted well into the 70's. At the time, it seemed like a smart thing to do. I since then buy the best I can, even if I have to wait. But even at that, I have to be able to justify the cost in my mind. At least for me, Festool seems a bit on the other side of the line. Beautiful stuff, but more than I am willing to pay for the ammount of use they will get. Cordless tools, the batteries go after a while. There is a guy who will replace the batteries, but that's not cheap, so you end up wasting perfectly good tools. So, I don't in general buy them anymore as I have power in my shop. I don't work elsewhere most of the time. So, just my ramble and $.02.Bob
Hi Bob,Yep I agree with allot of what you say.Here is an funny one: When I was a little kid I got it in my head that I wanted to buy my own corded drill. I went to Sears on my bike. This was like early seventies. I picked one out because it was on sale and we are talking saved up lunch money. I didn't go hungry I could eat better if I just walked around and mooched. "Hey you aren't going to eat that corn muffin and honey butter are ya?" The drill was a single speed basic. I think was on sale for like 9.99. The sales man not knowing the cheeky bastard that lay behind my mild mannered stupid expression decided he was going to scare me into buying a more expensive drill. He said you know that drill won't last long it will burn out and you will be sorry you didn't get this other one or some such.Then I said this is a craftsman tool right? it says craftsman right here on the side. And he says yes and I said so it is under the Craftsman power tool warranty? and he says yes. So I say well when it burns out I will be back to see you; bought the tool and left.I still have that little drill ~35 years later. For a while I was making a "living" producing custom interior design work from steel. I used it some everyday. Every five years or so it starts to squeal a little and I give it a drop or two of oil on its rear bearing and it quiets down and we go another five years.I am the kind of guy that gets out about five or six drills all with a different bit or counter sink or unibit etc and away we go.Some of what we made was full size, fully adjustable, custom, patinated, designer beds with canopy or fancy elaborate head and foot boards that were sold in a Cherry creek store in Denver. I really liked the slave work until some Texan took the work to Mexico and under bid us.Mostly I use corded drills. One of my favorites is a variable speed 1/4" PC that turns above three thou rpm. Industrial quality ($$$). I bought it just to run 1/16 and 3/32 bits to cut pricked pilot holes before drilling larger holes in steel. (Yah I know; use split points. But I like to sharpen my bits). I called all over and found it at McGuckin's hardware in Boulder. If you ever are in Boulder Colorado be sure to go to McGuckin's. They even have Filson clothing.>wife would have my headI haven't used my head in years. At work they don't want me to use it and after a while I think it quit working. But I don't have time to worry about that right now. Any way small price to pay to have some more cool power tools for the shop. I say go for it.
Six months ago I'd never heard of Harbor Freight. Now, a Harbor Freight is opening literally down the street (Sugarland Texas, a suburb of Houston). It would probably already be open except for Hurricane Ike. I'm curious to walk around but I've read so many negative comments, it seems to be a treu ---you get what you pay for---kinda place.
"I have a glimmer of hope that consumers will once again value products on something more than what it costs to buy them."
One lives in hope....
Loved your post... However..
I have also been burnt ( 2 or 3rd. degree ) on 'expensive items' also...
As to the battery powered tools.. Yes I have some.. However, I have lately went back to using my old plug in power drills. Still work and Years and Years old! OK so maybe I have replaced the carbon brushes somewhere along their life...
As I read you post.. I just 'fixed' a dryer for one of my daughter's. It is many years old and the new part was about 1/3 the cost of a new dryer... With all the rust and maybe a motor next.. I new one may have been a better choice?
Then I re-read why do people like crap?..
My wife married me? I was the crap! Far as I know we got along well..
Edited 9/29/2008 8:49 am by WillGeorge
Sometimes it's hard to find someone to repair things..I used to get my boots resoled in my little town of Peru. Then I had to go to Kokomo. When that guy went out of business, I had todrive to Indianapolis, a 180 mile round trip twice, once to take them and again to pick them up a week or two later...now he's out of business and I have two pair of boots I can't wear until I find another shoe repair place..
On this forum I've been called a tool yuppie for buying high quality hand tools. and I don't even own a Festool product (yet).
It is wonderful that in the woodworking world, there has been a resurgence of quality tools...My younger brother started woodworking in the late 80's and kinda gave it up over the past seven years...in his time all his power tools were Delta and he used to drool over the Sears tool catalogue...I bought him a LN adjustable block plane for his birthday and he couldn't believe the quality of that tool (all his planes were European wooden ones and he rarely used them)
Neil
you may consider finding a shoe repair on the internet and mailing them. just a thought.
I hear you! AND THEN SOME... My FEET HURT!
I have way more than several pair of old Florsheim's? Not sure of the spelling on anything I type! Wellington? boots. My feet never hurt wearing them! The tops are perfect! Even the zippers work and very old boots.. I just cannot get them new slabs of leather the hit the road!
Some of my boots are over twenty years old, still more comfortable than even my New Balance running shoes..as long as the boots hold out I'll keep getting them resoled (my newest pair of boots I bought for my son's wedding 11 yrs ago...he shed the wife but I've still got the boots...pays to buy well made)
Neil
I can just imagine the late George Carlin reading this.Next week he could do an hour on "cheap and crap" or cheap crap!
I can just imagine the late George Carlin reading this.
As in 'Why do he keep these OLD boots' Go barefoot!
I LOVED him in the early days as in the ... And in the middle sort of.. As he got older, As I got older and understood what that 'nasty' old guy was 'really' saying..
WARNING!!! This will be OFFENCIVE to EVERYONE but me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjUU70wN5is&feature=related
George Carlin on white people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcr8dm9Prkk&feature=related
George Carlin - Tonight Show Interview 1972http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BgYtekZb1c&feature=related
George Carlin 'The Hippy Dippy Weatherman'http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1uaw3WIOlc&feature=related
More George Carlin Quotations:http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgecarl379972.html
George Carlin - 'Have a Nice Day'http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Rxys_uBsw&feature=related
Sorry I had to!
Edited 10/4/2008 1:03 pm by WillGeorge
he shed the wife ..
Sorry that happened. To BOTH parties! Wish they could have worked it out...
and I don't even own a Festool product (yet).
I like but what I have now will do! I would LOVE a Cabinet saw! (I like my old saw and then some) I was going to get one at the beginning of this year and hit with a BIG home owners tax increase!
I loved that BIG router!
Get your boots resoled in Lafayette on the corner of Main and 7th street. I get all my shoes and boots done there. They do good work.
Best,
---Pedro
The "why" to your question is relatively simple, but has a lot of nuances. Ironically enough, some of it has to do with a fair percentage of the population that are cheap, rather than frugal.
These individuals focus on the initial purchase price only, and will buy the lowest priced item in a given category, regardless of its apparent or actual quality. Manufacturers are not dumb - they realize that the game has largely shifted to a cost above all else mentality, so they cater to that desire. I call it the "Wal-Mart Effect", and is one reason I will not set foot in any store in the chain.
A good example is a next door neighbor. When he was shopping for one, I tried to convince him to buy an echo or a stihl leafblower as they will last virtually forever in a homeowner's hands. Instead, he purchased a really cheap & crappy homelite from one of the big box stores, claiming that spending $250 on the echo or the stihl was "a ridiculous amount of money for a leafblower". His homelite was about $100, and he replaced it 3 times in 10 years he lived next door to me, as well as spending several Saturdays tinkering with the things trying to get them to run. The stihl I have has never failed to start on the first pull, even after setting for a year. Even so, he was not convinced, and applied the same philosophy to a cheap & crappy ryobi panel saw, cordless drill/driver, homelite chain saw, and a number of other tools that wound up in the trash several years after he purchased them.
Personally, I think it's an emotional thing. If you don't have much funds to purchase something of quality, don't purchase anything at all until you do have the funds - I consider this the definition of frugality. Many people can't stand that idea, however.
Part of this change, I think, is due to the exponential growth in technology. In our parents (and grandparents) day, labor was relatively cheap and technology was expensive. That has pretty much reversed over the past few decades, and now it's labor that costs the most.
Another major factor is the growth in the technology. I bought my first personal computer (a Kaypro) in '82. I've gone thru 4-5 new computers since then and with every upgrade, the improved capabilities more than justified the cost of buying new rather than repairing or upgrading the old one.
I bought a Makita 9.6v cordless in '85 after several weeks of agonizing about the $150 initial cost. In those days, a 1/4" corded drill cost ~$20 and a 3/8" drill was under $50. That thing changed my life, however. No more extension cords, and screws replaced nails for much of my work. The Makita died after ~12 years, but repair wasn't even considered. It was replaced by a set of 14.4v tools that gave me more fuctionality, better battery life, and more power. Last Xmas, my kids gave me an 18v Li-Ion combo set and the 14.4v stuff will disappear as it dies.
I don't agree that the new stuff is actually crap. It's certainly different than Grandpa's stuff, but different isn't really all that bad, is it? If the old stuff was really superior, we would still be using horses and wagons. CO2 wouldn't be a problem, but methane would be screwing up the environment. - lol
Consider that people suffer 'crap' because having at least 'crap' is better than having nothing at all, at least for a little while.
14 years ago, I bought a direct drive Delta saw because I had not the money for a "real" saw. Later on, I bought my buddy's Craftsman contractor saw off of him because he was buying a Powermatic. The "crap transfer" benefited both myself (upgrading to a saw with a cast iron table top), and my bro-in-law (to whom I gave the direct drive Delta, as he had no saw at all.)
I was especially pleased the day I sold the Craftsman. A Forrest WW2, having the arbor refaced, and lots of shimming/tweaking couldn't overcome a saw that was never engineered to be a Powermatic. Had I just been cutting MDF, plywood and pitchy 2 x 4's, it would've been a fine saw.
Full circle, I'm without a table saw, but there will not be a stop-gap. I beg for time on my buddy's Powermatic by bringing him premium beer - crappy beer is not welcome.
As for the Wal-Mart effect - I'm not a fan of Wal-Mart at all, but I sucked it up when I bought my son's bike there for $66 - he's commuting 3 miles to jr high. The new pedals I bought ($13 at a good bike store) to replace the pedals that broke within the first week are about 20% the cost of the whole crappy bike! It's easier to swallow a $66 loss if the bike gets stolen, rather than $200+ for a name brand model. Besides, he's hitting his growth spurt, so I'll buy him a better bike when he can't outgrow it.
Cheers,
Seth
"Consider that people suffer 'crap' because having at least 'crap' is better than having nothing at all, at least for a little while."But that's exactly the point that captured my attention in the article I linked to. In previous generations the urge was not to buy something that would simply satisfy the need to have it now, but rather to save and invest in long term ownership which values quality. As I tried to point out, my comments were not about cheap credit or globalization, and I should have included "not about WalMart", but rather a shift in attitudes about how we buy things as a result of many consumer goods being viewed as disposable. Consider your own comment about the bike, and please don't take this as a criticism but rather simply an observation. You are willing to live with a $66 (actually $79 with the pedals) theft loss rather than going with the presumably higher quality $200 bike and a good lock. BTW, your comment about growth spurt is right on, I wouldn't buy my sons good bikes either while they are growing.
I am curious that there appears to be agreement on buying the crappy bike, since it will be stolen or thrown away (?) before too long. But buying a better bike and the good lock is only appropriate after the growth spurt. That would mean that cheap and crappy has its place (disregarding for a moment the waste of materials, time and capital the cheap bike represents), if only for awhile. However, by buying the crappy bike, you 'vote' for that product, and that type of product. By not buying the better bicycle and trading it in or reselling it in time, you 'vote' against that maker and what they represent in the market.Extending the above to the serious ("Fine") woodworker, then when he/she starts out, he/she should buy only crappy planes and tools, since it is likely that they will "outgrow" them in time - in skills, utility or whatever. Then at some point along an indefinite continuum, the tools should be replaced withe better ones, eventually ending up with the best tools possible. Yes, I know I carried it too far. But the logic holds. I'm unsure if the OP was talking about tools to work wood or the products that are produced - or both. There is a connection between the quality of tools and the work they produce, though it can be overridden by skill/lack of skill, or discipline/lack of, or what have you/converse. Dave S
It's a fair point and I see my own contradiction on this.
To clarify, I didn't mean to point out specifically your contradictions, but rather the fact that many of us exhibit contradictory behavior on this subject. You were just handy, so to speak. As the article you referenced touched upon, there is some duality, some yin/yang going on, and we have shift points. Myself, I'm a purist in tools, wood, methods, history, design and such. As a result, I have set the bar too high to gain much satisfaction from my work. There is always an element or two that is lacking. While I feel fine that I haven't been inside a Wal-mart for many years, it is only a small personal triumph. The real goal is to find or develop customers that have the same values that I have for my products. Quality of design, tool, craft, and the entire business. This is really hard to keep up all the time, much less just on occasion.I did not mean to be critical. It is a worthwhile and interesting conversation. Dave S
Yes, I know I carried it too far. But the logic holds.
I don't think the logic holds.... As you acknowledge in your post your definition of outgrow is drastically different. I suspect that the logic would fail because of that... though you did acknowledge it.
A child can literally outgrow a bike, and render it useless. A bike can only safely be operated when the rider is a certain size.
This analogy doesn't hold true for tools at all. A quality tool is usable at all skill levels, and from a physical standpoint shouldn't 'need' to be replaced. Emotionally you may feel a need to replace the tool, but this falls back into the question of 'Buy now, or buy quality'.
In the end we all buy crap. The economics of the situation sometimes make 'crap' the better option. I have a Craftsman Circular saw, a brand widely considered crap, but it's built 4 decks, 2 fences and a basement and shows no sign of letting up. Economically it's the best choice.
Going back the the bike argument, it is true, a child will outgrow a bike, and almost everything else. But that assumes you have to get something new.
A good child's bike, like a good tool, can be handed down to younger children, given to friends with younger children, sold, or donated to charities. If one in 5 times you buy a quality new product, and the other four you score quality used products from other sources, you still come out ahead financially vs buying cheap new crap 5 times, and you get much better stuff. Similarly, we hardly every buy new clothes (from the store) for our kids because there is a huge amount of good quality children's clothing sold at yard sales, charity shops, and eBay. And we pass on the clothes and toys to the children of friends or to the local veterans association. Of course, whether this will work when my daughters become teenagers is a different question.
But that assumes you have to get something new.
Very true. We often buy new with the assumption that it will be batter or last longer, and in the end replace it well before it's regular life span. In the case of a bike when the child outgrows it.
But I don't think we're on the same page here. I was commenting on the idea of 'outgrowing' a tool. Which in my opinion is an emotional response rather than based on any real need. (Whereas outgrowing a bike is real.)
My original set of chisels are a quality set, I've used them on many projects. Last year I bought a set of LN. The feel of the tool is better, but in the end they don't do the job any better than my original set. They fill an emotional want, and realistically I don't need them. I haven't outgrown the original set, I just decided I wanted something different. What I'm saying is you don't need to have the most expensive, or the accepted 'best' to have a quality tool.
Crap tools are just crap tools. You don't outgrow them, you just come to realize how crappy they are...
I agree, especially with your last comment. I can understand someone "outgrowing" a tool in the case of a hobbyist turning pro, especially in the case of power tools, but in most cases it's an irrational decision that adds to the personal enjoyment of using the tools. I probably won't "outgrow my old eBay and yard sale Bailey planes, but that doesn't stop me wanting a new set of LNs.
I can understand someone "outgrowing" a tool in the case of a hobbyist turning pro, especially in the case of power tools, but in most cases it's an irrational decision that adds to the personal enjoyment of using the tools.
Yes, I agree. There is always going to be exceptions. I have been surprised by the relativly quality of tools in many pro shops (not industrial shops). Many of the hobbyist shops I've visited are equiped with higher quality equipment. I supose in my neck of the wood oil money buys better equipment than wood money...
Interesting observation. I would speculate that a business is about making money, so what's the most cost effective tool to "git er done". A hobby is about spending money.
Well said... and of course I'm guilty...
Woodman,Yours is not at all a criticism, my buying a bike knowing the bike is junk in the first place is the consumer hypocrisy you're addressing. So why would a reasonable consumer who can spot crap still buy the crap? It's just the natural valuation of cost v. result. I'm rich with in-laws, practically Rothschild with nieces and nephews. Really, I should value buying a quality bike, knowing when my son outgrows it, I could hand it down to the next kid who needed it. Unless, selfishly, I don't value having to foot the cost of a nice bike for my in-laws' kids!So I confess to making hypocrisy-based valuations, e.g. buying a lesser quality object to cover a short term need, like the Wal-Mart bike for my son's jr high school career. It's a reasonable justification, because kids do grow, if you remember to feed them regularly.In my Sears Craftsman table saw example (since the thread is supposed to pertain to woodworking!), I could have saved a few more dollars and bought a new Jet, knowing the quality was higher than the Craftsman. Instead, I opted for the 'buddy' discount because the used-tool market provided a fair saw at a fair price. I bought it for $500, got several years use out of it, and sold it for $300. The moral is I won't do that again, my rueful valuation of a mediocre stationary tool is it robs me of woodworking happiness.Now, if my buddy sells the Powermatic because he's buying a Mini Max, he should sport the good manners to call me first...Cheers,Seth
"Now, if my buddy sells the Powermatic because he's buying a Mini Max, he should sport the good manners to call me first..."I guess that's a form of trickle down economics :)
Woodman41,I do remember a few details about 1968. How much did the F 150 cost?...in 69' you could buy a Rolls Royce Silver Cloud for $19,500. I think a pickup back then was about $1700.Also, power tools back then were about as expensive as Festool is today relative to income. So a reasonably good drill ran around $70-90 dollars, I sold a cordless drill or $150. The cordless drill was stolen within one hour of delivery. I'm always amazed that many of the prices we see today are near the same as they were in 68'.BTW, if you had bought that RR, by 74' it was selling used or $32,000.
BG,
I paid $13,500 for my F-150, $15k with tax/licensing. I'd have to do way too much math to figure out the inflation adjusted price but I'd bet that I am pretty close to about equal for a truck that is quite a bit more feature laden. This only reinforces your point that prices have remained pretty constant but when you consider the exponential complexity of new stuff it turns out to be a pretty good deal when compared to stuff 40 years ago.
I figured out the inflation factor for a new 1968 Ford F-150, you said it was around $1,700 in 1968... which would be inflation adjusted to a little over $10k today. So my 2008 F-150 on a relative basis is about 30% more expensive than a 1968.
Woodman41,It's interesting to think about what it would be like driving that old pickup at today's speeds. As it relates to tools, I have some high quality power tools from back then..what a pain. No soft start, no variable speed, no reverse, very heavy and no balance. In short, dependable but not so functional. I wish I'd bought cheaper ones so they'd be dead now and I could get some new technology...sigh! But, they do have memories.
"There is hardly anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse
and sell a little cheaper,
and those people who consider price only, are this man's lawful prey.
It is unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.
When you pay too much you lose a little money - that is all.
When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought
was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.
The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot;
it cannot be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run,
and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better"
John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)
Alas, there may be nothing new under the sun.
I suppose that this is sort of a parallel topic, but I don't think that power tools can be compared to hand tools in regards to declining quality. Hand tools have been around for centuries and rely on much of the same technology - there have been few advances. However, power tools are constantly evolving and getting better and better (supposedly).
I think that the reason a lot more crap sells has a lot to do with the buyers (moreso than credit). Many moons ago, there were many specialists as another poster touched on (boots). They did one thing for a living and did that one thing well. The best quality tools quickly paid for themselves by not requiring constant maintenance, repair, and replacement. Nowadays, there are few who specialize in one specific field. Rather, there are more "weekend warriors" and DIYers who have a day job, but at home may find themselves building a set of wooden shelves one weekend and plumbing a sink the next. Because they do not use the same tools day in and day out, they feel they cannot justify the expense and instead go the "economical" route. Why buy the Festool circular saw to cut two sheets of plywood when a $20 jigsaw will do the job well enough?
The motor brush example you mentioned may be a separate cause. It is quite possible that the manufacturer doesn't want the user to do any maintenance on the tool and instead have them bring it in to an authorized service center. Cash draw? Design flaw? Liability issue?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Why buy the Festool circular saw to cut two sheets of plywood when a $20 jigsaw will do the job well enough?While I understand what your getting at, I don't think it's fair to compare Mastercraft (I see your Canadian) to Festool. While Festool makes an excelent product I think it is overkill for the average garage woodworker. There are many other quality saws out there that are closer to $20 than to Festool $$$. My Dewalt was only $80, and I was able to pick it up on a 10% off day at Rona. Given it's limited use I suspect that the saw will last a long time.I think the idea of buying quality tools is different that buying the best. There are lots of quality tools that are not considered the best. It's part of the reason FWW Tool reviews are kind of lame, there reviewing X number of quality tools and have to pick a winner. In the end all the tool sdo the job equally well.
Ah, the Trading Spaces crowd. Low cost tools are perfect for them, just enough tool to get the job done. Maybe there are degrees of crap, and we're talking about tools that are a level or two above Chicago Electric. My father, ever the marketer, often opines on drills that we're not buying a drill for the drill, we're buying a drill for the hole. I bought a corded Milwaukee screw shooter 10 years back, paid a dear $130 for it. It's nearly bullet proof and has enough torque to rotate the Earth, I reach for it when the batteries on the DeWalt are dead. It's all metal chuck is quite accurate, not a nary of a runout like there is on the 14.4v DeWalt cordless drill. It's not crap; but is it overkill for making a 1/8" pilot hole in alder? Can that pilot hole tolerate a minor amount of runout that the DeWalt brings to the party?My DeWalt 5" ROS doesn't hold a candle to anything in Festool livery, but with 2 layers of a cork interface between the stock pad and sanding disk, I get very positive results approaching - never reaching - a Rotex 125. $75 v. $350 - I'm not embarrassed about my crappy DeWalt, in that case.Cheers,Seth
great post. here are some thoughts I had:
1. Can you count all the planer models on the market today only using your ten fingers, if you still got em, and ten toes (11 toes is cheating). And don't forget the wide price points, from around $250 to what $15K, more? And they all do the same thing, plane lumber.
2. How many posts have you read where the weekend WWer is considering a 5hp TS, or a $2,500 TS, but would buy that $300 planer without blinking.
3. A lot of retirees coming into the market with cash. When I wander around a Rocker's or Woodcraft store, I'd say the average age of the clientel is easily 55 to 60.
4. The cost to fully equip a woodworking shop with tools of reasonable quality, for the average amatuer, is no more the $7500, about the cost of a nice vacation and a quarter of the cost for a backyard pool.
5. Markets are truely global. Customer loyalty takes a back seat to quarterly profits. Customers come and go. Quarters are forever. The internet tool review phenomena may change that a bit, if people even care to look and read. Problem is most will not review a product they don't like, they will suffer in silence. Second problem is they review tools just after purchase, not after 5 years use. Lastly, most have not had experience with other power tool brands to compare quality.
6. Renovating old Dewalt RAS is a market niche. They go for a pretty penny. Cast iron is god.
7. Given inflation and dollar indexing, power tools are cheaper today than ever before, even the top quality ones, with more choices than ever before.
8. A well maintained high quality power tool (or LN plane) will bring 60% to 75% of its original value, sometimes more. Sometimes less as shown in this Craig's list advertisement: "I have a almost new Industrial mini max SI-10 240volt 8ft. bed table saw for sale. It's $5000.00 new I will take $750.00 forit. If you have any questions please call me @678-410-6612. "
Eight is a good place to stop.
WM,
"Why do people buy crap"? For a very large percentage of the population, the anser is, "Because an advert persuaded them to".
Within this thread, there are a number of rationalistions offered in answer to your question. For a few people the reasons offered may even be the real ones. However, the vast horde of folk out there in consumer-land will simply do as they're told by the last glossy image or rhetorical phrase that pressed their "gather it" button.
Before around 1920 a very different and dominant ethos existed in both manufacturing and in consumer consciousness. "Goods" were deemed so if they were both fit for purpose and long-lasting. Consider Victorian engineering, for example.
But it was The Victorians who had begun the process of generating repeat business by selling "new/improved" as a concept, which also was about the shiny image rather than the intrinsic quality of a thing.
However, it wasn't until the major American manufacturers got together with Freud's brother and his ilk, to exploit the Pavlovian responses of humans to attractive images and associated status-psychologies, that advertising and rapid turnover of (necessarily) low cost goods began to become the norm. The previous buyer-parameters of "fit for purpose", "long-lasting" and what we would call "over-engineered" were deemed to be, and became, old-fashioned. Such quality manufacturing is generally self-defeating to a business wanting to grow it's profits and market year on year.
And now we have the throw-away society. It matters little to many folk that what they buy is of poor intrinsic quality. As long as the surface gleam lasts for the same time as the desirabiity of the thing in the fashion cycle (also artificially accelerated by the manufacturers and their advertisers) then this is sufficient. Next year/month, we buy the latest thang. Who cares if the old one is tarnished and doesn't work too good.
But some manufactured articles cannot realy survive unless they are also intrinsically fit for purpose. Tools are an obvious example. Hence LV, LN and similar now prosper.
Even cars must now reach a certain standard of utility way beyond that of even 20 years ago - although there is still a vestage of "new/improved" used to sell them. But the "new/improved" has to be in more than just the image these days.
How many people, though, realy need a good tool (or other working object)? Most folk don't make things - many do not even cook. So many "services" provide the finished product; and the finished products themselves are subject to those extremely rapid fashion or consumption cycles.
Result: we live in a world of manufactured junk (quite literally) except for those few exceptions where genuine fitness for purpose cannot be dispensed with.
Lataxe, who has owned his share of junk but now knows better.
Lataxe,Did you ever by a brassiere for yourself because an advertisement told you to? Me neither. (However, I shall endeavor with my "research" , the thesis asks does continuous exposure to Victoria Secrets catalogs compel me to buy unmentionables for myself? No, no..I do this for science.)There once was a guy named Lataxe who advertised to me, via this forum, a particular sci-fi author named Jack Vance, and he (Lataxe, that is) bid me to read him (Vance, that is.) Without that ad, I would've never known about Jack Vance, or to then ask my uber-geeky co-worker, who gushed greatly of Jack Vance, and thus provided me Tales of The Dying Earth. Of which I read, and won't read anymore, the same as once quaffing an entire barrel of molasses, at once crosses that action off the "Sailed, That Ship Has" list. The ad was only effective because I was in the mood to be a reader. Were I a DVD guy, I would have taken no action on your ad, because a book wouldn't have met my digital entertainment requirements. In other words, running the Problem (bored) to Solution (read a Vance book) calculation in my head produced a Result (did read the book). Clearly, a distinct correlation of an action due to an ad.Tool purchasing also gets run through the PSR calculator, and more than likely, the Solution portion (influenced by ads and opinion leaders) is modified by available budget, no matter how many Festool ads get eye time. Result - higher probability a crap tool gets purchased, rewarding the manufacturer to make more.I'll admit this: the only ad that ever DID compel me to un-butt my chair was a TV ad for Dove ice cream treats. None were in the house, I went to the store and bought some. That doesn't make me a sucker, just a glutton.Cheers,Seth
Seth,I have certainly bought naughty clothing after seeing it in an advert. How else would I have known about it? :-) In some cases the ladywife was co-operative whilst in others she curled her lip. I am a sucker for adverts that sell using gender-based techniques. How do them advertmen know this? It's just as well that Stanley and Irwin have not yet draped leather-clad lasses on their wares! I only buy a plane if the tote has that certain sinuosity.As to the excellent advice I gave you concerning Mr Vance - well, you shoulda started with Alastor; or Planet of Adventure; or Durdane. Go on - rush out and git them now! They will change your life!!! (Etc.).You mention "available budget" and it's constraint upon the siren inducements of the admen. Of course, "available budget" is a slippery concept, especially in these days of credit-addiction. Thank Gawd fer the credit crunch, eh? However, since I don't get credit (too mean to pay the usurers) I save up for my toys. And once you've had certain types of these thangs, you are addicted. No doubt there should be a thread entitled, "Why do woodworkers buy supertools"? Hang on, BossCharlie's already done that one to death in 79 other threads............ He was suckered by the Record saleman, as I remember. That Philip Marcou seduced me (with his brassy plane-gleam, not any other more personal attribute).As to ice cream (or beer, chocolate, [very longlist]) I only have to see a pic of a luscious cornet or a bedewed glass and off I rush to the sweetie shop or the grog store. Pavlov's dog had a will of iron, compared to mine.Finally, anyone who buys a bicycle that isn't made of carbon fibre and doesn't have jewel-like Campagnolo bits on it should be taken off to be beaten with old tubular tires until they see sense. How can you bear to be seen out riding them gaspipe things that only cost $1000?Lataxe, a victim of evil admen everywhere.
Perhaps there's another take on this question - not "why do people buy crap" but "why does cheap, crappy stuff exist?". And the answer is - to severely punish people that are cheap ;-)
You're suggesting this is pre-active karma, the Universe is actually pushing cheapskates to their destiny, rather than waiting for the inevitable. You could very well be right.
But do cheap people realize they are being punished, or do they just take it in stride, as par for the course, a fact of life. They buy a particleboard shed kit joined with biscuits and it falls apart after a few months. They tear it down, toss it in the dump and buy another. After all, this particleboard shed kits costs only a fraction of the cost a cedar shed costs. Perhaps this environmental focus will reduce the demand and production of curbside sheds.
Edit: These two saying come to mind:1) If you build it, they will come.2) There's a sucker born every minute.
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 9/30/2008 11:56 pm by flairwoodworks
People have always loved crap, always will. We tend to see the wonderful things that have survived from the past and point to an era of quality, while over looking the junk of the past. We always want to get a deal, Just as good for 1/8th the price.
"But do cheap people realize they are being punished, or do they just take it in stride, as par for the course, a fact of life."
I think it depends on the individual. I knew one scientist at a firm where I did contract work over the last couple of years that was an extreme example. He was, by comparison to most of the American workforce, extremely well paid. Nevertheless, he refused to buy any tool that was not the rock-bottom cheapest of the category. A fair number of our conversations were advice on how to make the same broken tools work again. Hilariously enough, he thought that he was continually being taken advantage of at the big box stores - they were making "too much money" and the tools he was buying were "too expensive" - though they were priced lower than any equivalent in the history of manufacturing.
He was, of course, being taken advantage of, but not in the way he thought. He was being taken advantage of by being sold worthless pieces of junk labeled "miter saw", "circular saw", "cordless drill", etc...
define crap...............
To me its adviseable to spend a little extra ( ok..mayebe a LOT extra) on fine hand tool. Since it is you doing the powering a fine hand tool just feels right and works right. Ask anyone addicted to LN.
Now power tools is another story. I"d love to have a Powermatic cabinet saw....heck, even a Unisaw.but I have a Craftman contractors saw with cast iron wings. It is , after all, a motor powered blade. Flat table and a so so rip fence. I up graded to a Vega and it wasnt much of an upgrade. Biggest upgrade was the link belt. That bad boy will cut thru 2" of white oak with no problem. So why do I need a Unisaw?
next tool...band saw. I bought a 16" Reliant..motor powered blade. Link belt up grade and it will slice through 5" of cherry almost as fast as I can feed it. I can resaw 5" thick maple cherry or walnut less that 1/4" with no problem.....So why do I need a Leguna?
Jointer. .....Reliant Yea id like one a bit wider but 6" does the task
Drill Press...Reliant............. with a Shop Smith as a back up for larger than 3/8" drill shanks and horizontal boring and a lathe
Add these 4 major power tools up and they didnt cost me $1000 ( throw in the used Shop Smith that I paid $400 for and you get a lot of tools for under $1500............ whats a Powermatic sell for?
Crap?......does the task and then some..............One mans crap is another mans fertilizer.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
No argument about used tools (power or otherwise) - anything older than about 15 years was typically (though not always) built to very high standards.
But I've an example when it comes to power tools - my first table saw was a Ryobi BT3000 purchased at the Home Despot. I built quite a few things with it, but at the cost of much frustration. Regardless of whether the fence was straight or not, it could not be adjusted to stay straight during a cut - the hold-down system was too weak. The table wasn't flat, and didn't include a miter slot, which severely limited the kinds of shop-built jigs I could've used to overcome the saw's limitations. The sliding miter table couldn't be relied upon to holda 90 degree adjustment to the blade, either. Moreover, the saw's weak motor would bog down in anything over 1" thick hardwood.
Even though I turned out quite a few projects with that saw, my money (about $600 when the accessories were included) would've been much better spent finding a 1960's craftsman cabinet saw, or put towards a UniSaw. I now have a UniSaw, and the difference is dramatic. With the Ryobi, every rip would be burned on the edge - I spent hours jointing, planing and sanding that I could've avoided. The Unisaw equipped with a Forrest blade generally does not require edge jointing if the board's going into a panel glue-up, and the table, blade arbor and fence adjustments stay where they're put.
Guess my point is that in any given price category (except at the very lowest - you can't expect to get much of a table saw for $100, if at all), there are usually better options than buying the cheapest thing you can get by with, and in some cases, what appears to be a bargain really isn't - a Stanley #5 can be purchased for $40 at a flea market, but if you have to spend 4 hours fettling the thing, I think the money is better put toward part of the cost of a Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen example that doesn't require that kind of work, and winds up a better and sturdier tool than the Stanley even after the work's put into it.
CherryJohn,I did not get a chance to compliment you on that pretty boat your making and selling to the tourists. I'm sure as they discover NH's vast seacoast they are inspired to take a bit of it home. I'm amazed at what your able to produce with your lousy power equipment.I'll bet if you had a powermatic there'd be a half necked wench on the bow, a peg leg at the helm and she'd be flying the skull and cross bones..:)
Think the folks at the childrens museum would like the authenticity? Any ideas on a model for the bow adornment?
Have you seen the new variation? made the move to cypress and a mahogany/ walnut waterline and a walnut sail. When you have POS machinery.you need to go simpleWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I don't think my old Craftsman TS would do your garden much good.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
just saw your web site.....you are my kinda guy.....long live wood!Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Lataxe,I often feel inferior on my aluminum Klein bedecked with Shimano parts, shoed with Conti clinchers on Mavic rims; I gnash with vulgarous acrimony as the prissy carbon fiber and titanium crowd trip lightly past me. You'd not know the unending attempts of contrition to the cycling gods I endure, having, in my selfish no-nothing youth, ridden a steel frame. It's why I force my son to ride what is a drug store bike, so he may become tougher and harder, one day rising above his wretch of a father. I weep.That's what I tell him, anyway. The whelp is nearly 12, I don't think he favors me as credible anymore.Ok, I'll give Vance another try. But, (finger wagging), he's on notice.The credit mess is perversely causing a spike in microwave popcorn sales, I believe my fair citizens are raptly watching the evening news with a bucket of buttered in hand; $700 bill-yun of taxpayer money tends to grab attention in the same manner as stampeding bison in a lingerie store, to slightly paraphrase an expression.Cheers,Seth
>>>>>>I only buy a plane if the tote has that certain sinuosity<<<<<<
NOTED.Philip Marcou
You've hit the nail on the head - i.e. deconstructed the the question "why do people like crap" into "why do people buy crap." And I think that's truly what the OP meant. I'll knock off a bit more by stating the fundamental question is "why do people buy." Liking is often the justification we give to those who control or monitor our spending (read spouse) after the fact. But buying behavior is truly ingrained in the human psyche and open to manipulation. We hear "sale" as scarcity; our glands pump adrenaline; and, we act before rational thought can intervene.
I have a set of clamps I bought for a "special price" from Garrett Wade. Not a bad set but far too shallow for so many projects. Five years later Garrett Wade still offers others my "special" price. I stomp my foot like my two-year old.
Here are some observations on con summing:
1. No matter how rich or poor you are price, always matters.
2. Nobody fixes anything anymore,throw away and buy new is the rule.
3. If a manufacture can set a "buying trap" - they will. That's why batteries cost half as much as the drill. That's also why plumbers charge by the job and not by the hour.
4. "Slave" labor trumps Union Labor.
5. Buying new is addictive - and cures more depression than Xanex.
6. People are conformist and will generally, buy, do, dress, and think like the crowd.
7. Creative thinking is not generally understood!
Best,
Jim
Rewrite of item # 2
Nobody fixes anything anymore, If they did Wall Mart would own the business.
I can certaily agree on one statement: The Maytag Neptune is probably one of the worst piece of machinery made in the USA during the past 20 years. A bearing went out on ours and it was cheaper to buy a new a new LG washer than to have the bearing replaced. My mom's Maytag that is 28 years old is running like a new one. Maytag and Delta are in the same boat: once standards of the industry...they are now 2nd rate. I will never own another one. Milwaukee is slowly descending in to the same space.
Things are going to change as the $700B bailout falters because the American people are fed up with the crap that has been handed to us.
It will take awhile, but things are going to change.
Your rant was good.
when the circuit board failed on the washer (before the class action lawsuit) I spent 6 weeks fighting with Maytag about the warranty claim. Finally, I called the CEO of Maytag and he delegated it to someone to follow up. It got fixed. Then the dryer failed. The LG machines we bought are still pretty new so I'll wait a year or two before commenting on them but so far they are pretty slick.
Maytag! I have a MAYTAG that never worked... Fridge.. BUT my washer and Drier are old and still work??
When I first got my Fridg.... I called and some jerk came out and made it worse than it was before!
I agree with you but... I don't feel the Issue is necessarily about disposable attitudes but about the ME and I need it NOW thing!
People just don't/can't wait for the new and latest thing, gadget or whatnot. This is the price of our progress. Time is worth more than it used to be because of the speed of information. I don't necessarily like it so much but were experiencing it as we communicate. Yes, the internet! as just one example.
Our time is worth more not because it has more value but because we are expected to do more with it. from the time of the advent of the lightbulb and telegraph information has traveled faster and were just trying to keep up with it!
Now as a rule the fashions will change faster and we'll be right there to see the latest trend and dive right in. The cost of this (the short version) is instantaneous wanting hence instant credit, and a slew of market and banking related "services" to go with it. This in a nut shell is the consumeristic society we have built.
Just my two cents,
Chaim
I'm not one who suggests that "in the good 'ol days things were better" as a general rule.
First off. Loved the post. Wise words!
BUT "in the good 'ol days things were better". Probably not better. HOWEVER I had WAY MORE FUN!
no kidding, in the "good 'ol days" we were largely ignorant to all the things that turned out to be hazards in the world, and as a result, had more fun.
You should change the word from "crap" to the word "cheap", the cost to manufacture these tool are "cheap". Just because they turn out to be "crap" is the latter of the bye product
The following are just my views and not meant to be a criticism of anyone elses ideas or thoughts. Maybe a little preachy, but hey! we're all adults here.
Sometimes even crappy tools in the hands of a craftsman can turn out fine work. I started woodworking 25 + years ago and bought what I could afford, Black and Decker contractor grade tools. I began upgrading as I could afford better quality. Like so many others, I have a Craftsman contractors table saw with lots of cast iron. Two Forrest WW2 and Dado Master, Incra fence and new machined pullies and link belt make this a pretty good piece of equipment. I have been ripping a lot of 8/4 Qtrs sawn white oak for my latest project, and it has done a very good and accurate job. (sharp blade and good setup) I have agonized for a couple of years over a new cabinet saw. I can afford one now, but still think why? I will replace it eventually, but not right now. I have Delta, Jet, Porter Cable, Bosch, Dewalt and Freud and Grizzly tools and put them all through their paces, and they ALL produce the results that I desire, providing that I, the operator am accuarate, focused and precise. Proper planning, layout, measuring and execution are as important, if not more than the obsession with "nothing but the finest" Buy the best that you can afford, concentrate on your precision, set up the tools properly and follow the basic tenents of fine woodworking. When your abilities begin to out pace those of your tool, then replace it with once again the best that you can afford. Doug Stowe does not use all of the latest tools available, and sticks with some oldies, and he is probably one of the best box makers in the world.
I think that an $800 router is a bit of overkill, but then again my LN planes are a bit of overkill for some. Both in the hands of a rank amateur will turn out the same crappy work! The world is not a perfect place. Never has been, never will be. We bitch about the same things our parents and grandparents did, just with different names and scenarios. Look back to William Morris. He rebelled against the mass produced "junk" of his time and thus began the Craftsman movement that gave way to the Stickleys, Greenes and FL Wright. We are still building their pieces today. We need to concentrate on our work and take "crass commercialism" to whatever level we personally are comfortable with. Graham Blackburne is as devoted hand tool cratsman as their is, and he espouses the view that he needs both hand and power tools to perform different tasks with his work in order to make a living in today's world.
Build things, have fun, take pride and be ALS I KAN. (Apologies to the Dutch and G. Stickley)
Enjoy your craft and be proud of your work, not the tools that produced it.
WB,You make a good argument. But perhaps the OP's question should have been prefaced with another: what is the definition of a crappy tool? One might posit a number of criteria. A tool is crappy if:it can't perform the functions that tool type is meant to perform;
functionality fails to reach a standard good enough to allow good work;
it requires a lot of fettling hours before it will work;
there is a need for lots & constant maintenance to keep it working;
wear and tear destroy the tool rapidly with normal use;
various wear parts cannot be renewed or replaced;
any motor gets so hot/noisy that the tool must be rested frequently;
bearings, slides, adjusters and other moving parts are sloppy;
the tool has attributes that are inherently & unnecessarily dangerous;
the materials used to make it are unfit for purpose;
the design makes its use difficult or even impossible.Well, one could go on and on. :-) Of course, a really crappy tool suffers from all the above. Lataxe
"Like so many others, I have a Craftsman contractors table saw with lots of cast iron. Two Forrest WW2 and Dado Master, Incra fence and new machined pullies and link belt make this a pretty good piece of equipment."
Except that what you've described isn't "crappy". Seen a recently produced Craftsman contractor's saw? Doubt you'd find much cast iron in it all.
Many workaday tools from yesteryear were produced to a high standard of quality for the class of tool that they were in. That is not the case today, at least on the lower end - they are produced with a price-above-all-else philosophy (actually, "profit margin above all else" would probably be more accurate) and they do indeed violate many of Lataxe's definitions.
Actually I didn't even write that original message with tools in mind. But now that you mention it, I'd encourage you to look beyond engineering elegance and precision and simply focus on durability. It's from here I would ask you to make the jump to the real point of what I wrote, which is the disposable nature of consumer goods today. Rather than buy something with the intention of having it for a long time, we - as a generalization - buy an awful lot of stuff simply because it's cheap and when it breaks, because we know it will, we'll simply throw it out and buy a new and improved version. Where would we be today if William Morris was competing against Ikea? Would we even know William Morris as a result?
Woodman,I'd give you my 2 cents, but they're now part of the bailout....Here's why good woodworkers buy Ikea, which I know from my buddy who has a shop full of Powermatic tools - his kids didn't require anything better at the time.Not overly destructive, but his kids (then at toddler/pre-school age) put a certain wear and tear on the furniture, and he wasn't going to build them nice furniture until they learned not to draw on the table with Sharpies. Now they are older and not prone to driving their RC cars into table legs, so he's splurged on cherry and maple, and build some very tasty desks and beds for them.This falls directly in line with your point of putting up with disposable, non durable goods. Like my son's cheap bike, he'll get a better one when he finishes growing. My buddy gives his kids nice furniture when there's no specter of juvenile mayhem. We willingly joined the legion of crap buyers, because it fit a short term need.To your wondering about William Morris' artistic legacy had Ikea been invented in the mid 1800's - yes, we'd still know about him. Patrons would've bought his artistic vision anyway, in the same way today that people "who know" buy Sam Maloof. I surmise as doubtful that anyone who can afford Maloof would actively not buy a piece, only because a suitable offering was at Ikea. Availability in two markets does not dilute the more expensive purchase when exclusivity is the fundamental reason. Less expensive options to Maloof might be found in the Thomas Moser catalog, but equally, I cannot afford either Gentlemen M, as durable as their furniture may be. The middle class of the 1800's no doubt faced similar expense decisions, and likely bought lower cost goods from their version of Ikea, were he a local woodsmith name Ike Adams. Then, Ike wouldn't have used melamine banding to cover particle board edges because he didn't have those materials, but today's Ike would.Cheers,Seth
"To your wondering about William Morris' artistic legacy had Ikea been invented in the mid 1800's - yes, we'd still know about him. Patrons would've bought his artistic vision anyway, in the same way today that people "who know" buy Sam Maloof. I surmise as doubtful that anyone who can afford Maloof would actively not buy a piece, only because a suitable offering was at Ikea. Availability in two markets does not dilute the more expensive purchase when exclusivity is the fundamental reason."
Consider this for a moment, a William Morris and Sam Maloof are the best of a generation and serve not only to stand a test of time but also inspire lesser talents to draft into a market.
Arguably, on a relative basis, the market for heirloom quality furniture is smaller than in generations past as more of the market either doesn't care and goes Ikea, or faux heirloom furniture made in a factory somewhere fills the void.
You are suggesting that the two markets don't dilute each other and I believe you are correct, however the widening gap between the two markets creates a large gap in the middle much like in the restaurant business. Fast food and fine dining are pretty far apart, enough so that the casual dining segment was born and while I have nothing against Olive Garden, the fact remains that it is mass produced food that has more in common with fast food than fine dining. I believe the same is happening in many other segments.
This middle market creates tension on both ends of the scale as people on the low end move up and participants in the top drain off to enjoy more frequency of experience as a function of affordability.
Exclusivity is not all that drives high-end purchases. Sam Maloof's work, if you read his book, did not bring the sort of breathtaking prices that it does today for most of his career - what he built was quality furniture at prices that the middle class could afford. His current prices are driven by the recognition of his furniture as art objects, not necessarily as functional pieces.
But I don't agree that one market does not dilute another. Windsor chairs were the inexpensive, manufactured furniture of its day. However inexpensive and accessible to the general population they were, however, they were quality items many of which survive to this day. The stuff that Ikea sells will be exceptionally lucky if it lasts 10 years, if that. It is quintessentially "curb furniture" (use it for a while and set it out on the curb for the trash pickup), and I seriously doubt the aesthetics of our 18th century or 19th century ancestors would've tolerated it.
You wrote, "The stuff that Ikea sells will be exceptionally lucky if it lasts 10 years...and I seriously doubt the aesthetics of our 18th century or 19th century ancestors would've tolerated it."I agree with you, and I think it is a lot more than aesthetics. Our American forebears in the 18th and 19th century lived in a society where the population was far closer to, and more knowledgable about, quality in manmade objects than the citizens of today.People who can recognize quality will tend to value it more than people who have to take someone else's word about it. This applies to tools, furniture, and housing, among others.Another point is that tools used to cost vastly more (relative to income) than they do today. A working man might spend a week's wages on a power tool, and he was really motivated to get one that would last a long time for that sort of investment.In short, people buy crap because they can do so painlessly, or because they do not understand the difference enough to care about it. In some cases it even makes sense for me, and I am an afficionado of excellence. I don't use a heat gun much, so I bought a cheap one that works fine for my limited use...painless. At least I understood what I was doing with that decision. Like the guy who bought his kids Ikea furniture when they were little, it was a sensible move under the circumstances.Bill
The stuff that Ikea sells will be exceptionally lucky if it lasts 10 years, if that. It is quintessentially "curb furniture" (use it for a while and set it out on the curb for the trash pickup)...
I've got some Ikea furniture pushing 11 years. Quality wise it's in great shape. I think I've outgrown the style of course. But it's pretty low on the list of furniture to replace at this point. I even have a cheap table I bought for $3.00 that's still around after all these years.
I think that as wodoworkers we want this furniture to break after a year or two. Realistically the quality life span is much greater.
I suspect you're considerably less hard on furniture than most. But you're right - when I build things, they will last for several hundred years barring a catastrophe like a fire. The Ikea stuff I've seen was laminated particle board with a plastic finish and with rabetted and glued drawers. !0 years is a reasonable expectation before the hinge screws pull out of the particle board and/or the drawer fronts come loose.
Perhaps they've improved on the construction since I've seen it - destitute people in poor countries can turn out some reasonably good work for next to nothing if given the chance to do so.
I suspect you're considerably less hard on furniture than most.
I don't think I am, though my kids are still too young to really do any damage. The table that suffers the most is my first serious woodworking project, an end table that they crawl off the couch onto. It's simply not designed for 30lbs to be crawling across the top of it.
I bought my dresser 12 years ago, it's survived 4 moves and a guy who stuffs drawers and never folds anything... Still going strong. The only damage to that set is a knob that was damaged by a cat.
There are however different levels of quality within Ikea furniture. I recently needed a wardrobe for a nanny suit. The back wasn't even hardboard, just coragated plastic board. Again it will meet it's need for a very low price.
I think the issue with Ikea is that regardless of quality it's design as temporary furnishings. Like me I think people outgrow it rather quickly, having a green end table is fun if your 23, not so fun by the time your 30. As well despite it's presumed uniqness it's very generic.
I build furniture for the long run. Build it strong, and build it clean.
Buster,In the summer of 2007 we hired a large house overlooking Freshwater East beach in Pembrokeshire, Wales. The house was a wunnerful building, as was it's location. Unfortunately the owner had furnished it (in 2006) top-to-bottom with Ikea stuff.All the drawers had sagged/warped and were impossible to open or close without great force. Several had lost their cardboard-like bottoms from the groove. The cupboard doors wouldn't close properly because of warp. The fridge was noisy and not cold. The cooker was severely underpowered. However, there was a nice picture of the canvas wrap-around style featuring some beach stones in grey and white. But it's hook was near to bent-straight so it fell off the wall (twice) whilst we were there.Perhaps Ikea started out with reasonable quality standards. My impression of the many 2006 items in that house were that the accountants had had their way and material costs, not to mention construction costs, had been pared down to near-nil.You couldn't even use it as firewood. (Too much pollution from the cheap MDF and chipboard).Lataxe
Lataxe,
One should remember that the final quality of Ikea furniture is directly dependent on the person putting it together! If a person can not hang a picture...
Seriously there is some Ikea furniture of reasable quality. That said, they have lots of junk too...
I'm guilty of buying some junk their recently to furnish a nanny suite. It only has to last 2-3 years, then I'll sell it off... or throw it out. The room is destined to be my wifes office when the nanny moves on to the next family.
Buster,
In 50 years that Ikea will be incredibly collectible and in the New York Penthouses! In 100 years it will be revered like Shaker!
Jim
Woodman,There used to be in my fair city a store called Hoot Judkins, and if you guessed it was unfinished furniture, you'd be right. I'd liken their inventory of raw pine and red oak desks and tables to Olive Garden, per your example. Maybe Benihana's.There was a certain manufacturer found there, called Maco, who surprisingly makes quality mass produced furniture. About $600 for a multi drawer dresser, drawer faces are dovetailed in to the drawer sides. Big deal, you muse, except - there are no gaps at all in the dovetails. None. They fit, exactly as they're supposed to. From one drawer to the next, no gaps, no glue drips, no security staples. From one piece of furniture to the next, the accuracy of the dovetails is consistent. As a bonus, all drawer fronts line up. Not one is skewed, racked or saggy. Clearly, these guys have put some care into their processes.But you have to like alder or pine. They don't make it out of birch or maple. And unfinished furniture leads to wicked-evil finishing thoughts, like paint. Painted furniture leads to dancing, and that leads to witch hunting. I digress.I'm surprised Maco is not more widely available, the unfinished-only probably has a lot to do with it. Too bad, if factory finished, the middle market would be decently served. That said, Maco won't dent the Ikea market, it's still too pricey.Cheers,Seth
which reinforces the point that quality doesn't have to have a steep price tag, just an eye for finding it. BTW, there is a Hoot Judkins in my area (a "close out sale" every week!). I wonder how many people pass by that Hoot Judkins each day on their way to Ikea...
Sounds like you're in the SF Bay Area. I'm in Fremont. Perchance you're Peninsula?Do the other Hoot Judkins still carry the Amish furniture? There's a crock. No, not the Amish, the "Amish" furniture. I recall a prominently displayed $2000+ cherry dresser, so I looked it over. In pulling the drawers, the dovetails were a wreck - gaps, glue and staples. Raw saw marks were visible on internal frame pieces, and someone hadn't bothered to sand away the large, black letter 'L' on one of the drawer sides.What a disgrace, no craftsmanship at all, presuming human hands were involved. Some hapless consumer probably bought it because it was made by the Amish, you know.If you ever happen to venture into Hoot, perhaps they have a Maco brand object hanging around. The Maco won't set any fashion trends, but I think its quality may be a sign of hope for production furniture. http://www.macolifestyles.com/Site/Welcome.htmlCheers,Seth
yeah, Redwood City
Practically neighbors, separated by a bridge...
I only read the first 20 replies, so forgive me if this item was covered. Many years ago I bought a good couch ($1100) for my living room. Nice couch, solid wood frame, lots of strength. Speed forward a bunch of years (2 kids, second cat, etc) and I now want to re-cover this couch. First, try to find a half-way decent upholsterer. Now pick out a style of fabric and ask the price... WOW $900 just to RE-COVER the thing. No one wants to buy the frame, so out it goes to the curb where it disappeared within an hour. Whole new couch.... $600 !
I'll toss out an idea and let someone else run with it.
Premis: New DeWalt screw gun with two batteries... $135. Cost of two new (re[placement) batteries, $80 to $90. Yes, the drill is 4 or 5 years old and I don't know when it's going to give up and die. Should I replace the batteries or just buy a new unit WITH a guarantee??
Solution: How about someone making a 'universal battery replacer' that can plug into a 110 volt outlet and connect to my drill so I can use it as a corded drill around my shop. If the drill dies, I get a different adapter end and hook it up to my next drill. Radio Shack makes small universal power supplies to use in a long list of different pieces of electronics, why can't we do the same for our battery powered tools??
SawdustSteve
if tool companies really cared about consumers getting value, they would agree on a standard format for batteries and make them modular, like the military does. Imagine the hassle it would be if every automobile manufacturer used a different electrical system, some 12v some 15.6v, and a few 42v and all had different batteries that were not interchangeable?
That about pegs out the bovine excrement meter. What value will my little round panasonic screwdriver have with a hulking 18v battery hanging off of it? What value will my drill/driver have if the standard is 2.6v?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
standard format battery modules, say for example 6v. 12v tool = 2 battery modules, 18v = 3 modules. The form factor would be the same and the interface would resemble a bus... batteries slide in and good to go. Because the spec would be open, there would be less manufacturing cost because everyone would use the same format and aftermarket manufacturers could compete. Think about it, when you need new flashlight batteries do you need to know what brand flashlight you have or do you just go and buy the replacement batteries that are the same size? Of course with such a standardized system the tool manufacturers wouldn't be able to lock you into their replacement batteries or upsell you on the latest technology they are marketing, and of course they can use different battery formats for different voltage tools, meaning you buy replacement batteries with more frequency. Yeah, the current system is much better...
Woodman,Who would control the battery module standard, and develop it further as a benefit to consumers? I work in the IT industry, where standards exist - in part- because the original technology designers wanted openness (e.g, the creator of HTTP is an academician, a social group abnormally interested with sharing discoveries) and buyers of very expensive IT gear demand from suppliers the requirement that equipment speak common protocols. Nothing, of course, prevents equipment suppliers from supplying their own version of technology side by side to the community approved standard; that's basic competition. "Who" controls the IT standards are neutral orgs operated by very smart techies (like the creator of HTTP), and membership no doubt includes major and minor manufacturers. Joining the org is an indicator to the market that a supplier is willing to provide at least the standard in its products.Gently, I suggest that an industry standard for modular tool batteries won't work for a few reasons - 1) the price point of a battery operated tool isn't sufficient for consumers to demand interoperability between manufacturers, 2) there are already plenty of tool makers out there, so growing a broader competitive market from a common standard is not necessary, and lastly, 3) there exists in the marketplace the opportunity for a 3rd party manufacturer to make and market replacement batteries, competing in price with the original supplier. DeWalt, et. al., might not LIKE it, but after the tool's warranty period has expired, the consumer benefits from having a selection of after-market parts which fit the existing tool. Kragen/Checker, Napa, Auto Zone, etc. are perfect examples of after market parts availability.Now...if only Canon and Nikon can agree on a standard where my pricey Canon L lenses work perfectly on a Nikon D300. (Did I just forget to read what I wrote?)Cheers,Seth
Seth,You may well be able to use your memory cards in different cameras from various manufacturers. Similarly with filters. Many cameras take AA batteries (2 of mine do, a Fuji & a Canon). Let us not forget JPEG and also the DNG RAW standard.So, as you point out, standards are possible and often desirable. We might allow that a proprietary interface or technology allows a manufacturer to make "a better one" than the competition. I doubt this is true for battery shapes/interfaces in 12 - 18V electric drills. Lataxe, all too familar with the standards wars in computing.
Those who prefer the slide on type as oposed to the push in from the bottom type might argue with you. Milwaukee in particular has a great many fans of their pack which can slide on facing either direction.
What make is your tool that uses aa size cells?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,It's my fix-anything friend who disembowelled a battery or three. He is also a skinflint so the tools were of the cheap variety from a British supplier called Screwfix (!!). One was an Erbauer, another a Pro-something and I can't remember the brand of the third. The Erbauer and the nameless one had AA NiCds soldered together in their battery case via a wiring harness, whilst the Pro-thingy had those short C-cells, also NiCd and soldered/wired. The cells were nameless things in a simple white plastic jacket with only "NiCd" and "1.2V" printed on them along with a numeric code.The tools were still relatively new when the batteries began to be prolematic. They wouldn't hold charge for long, although they still gave out plenty juice if used immediately after charging.He did wire in some Uniross NiCd cells instead. They certainly worked but he had problems making good solder joints; they kept breaking off the cells despite his use of exotic fluxes employed when he used to make cycle frames (with silver-based brazing metal).*****Battery costs presumably vary as much because of volume sales as they do because of monopoly-exploitation. Rechargeable AAs are ubiquitous and therefore very cheap. Then again, expensive camera Li-on batteries from Canon, Nikon et al are copied by other reputable battery makers and sold for 1/2 or 1/3 the price. I have half a dozen of these and they are just as good as those supplied by the camera-makers. I wonder if one may buy a good quality Makita or Dewalt drill battery clone for 1/2 or 1/3 the price? That would be useful.Lataxe
Lataxe,Indeed true, there are benficial industry standards at play in digi photography; standard removable media can be used in nearly anyone's bodies (I'm talking to you, Sony, and your memory stick), the AA battery is standard in nearly everything electronic across most continents, and yes, a 58mm filter fits any lens with a 58 mm thread, or a suitable adapter ring in place.With Photoshop, it does understand JPEG and RAW, but I think Photoshop also has some proprietary formats, should one want to use them instead. Just in case.Beyond that Canon lenses don't fit Nikon bodies (as expected), Minolta did themselves no favors all that time ago with the APS (Advanced Photo System), where the old Maxxum lenses didn't fit the new APS body; seems Minolta wanted people to invest in all new glass. Seems people stopped buying Minolta. Cheers,Seth
Don,I'm currently suffering from the need to buy new drill batteries. I say "suffer" because the buggers are very costly for what they are. The lack of cross-industry standards means the manufacturer has got a monopoly on their battery shape and interface, so I must pay £59 a time.....My friend is a tinker and has disassembled such batteries on many a tool, as the battery ceases to fuction. In all cases so far, the innards are indeed standad 1.2V AA or sometimes 1.2V C sized cells, packed and connected together within the proprietary casing. Of course, he has to hacksaw the cases apart and his attempts to insert new battery cells are often less than succesful as they are usually hard-wired into the case.I would like to see such proprietary batteries enabled to allow the user to replace the cells. We could have the best of both worlds - batteries of various sizes and voltages to suit the tool, with user-managed maintenance and refurbishment.Still, at least Ryobi seems to have forced a certain uniformity on same-voltage tools throughout their range (18 One+) and I notice some manufacturers are following suit. Now we just need them to make the battery cases like those of torches.Lataxe, who hates to be subject to a monopoly.
Edited 10/8/2008 3:53 am ET by Lataxe
Sir Lataxe;
The battery pack for my Makita 14.4v 2.6ah drill/driver contains 12 sub c ni-mh cells. A search for the best prices on the internet reveals that I could buy 12 cells for about $56. Amazon is currently selling the Makita battery for $50.49 new with warranty and free shipping.
As you noticed when you disassembled a pack, the cells are spot welded together. This is done for several reasons, reliable low resistance connections and space saving among them. You have no doubt seen the spring and contact method used to hold batterys of the user replaceable variety, can you imagine the size of the battery pack that would be required to implement such a scheme on a tool?
I for one do not relish the idea of having to whack my drill occasionally to re-establish contact among those many springs and plates.
In return for this increased bulk and reduced reliability I would have to pay a $6 premium.
Don, who likes the free market and wishes we had one.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,Your argument is a good one. However, if the naughty battery makers were to stuff their cases with 2500MAH AA cells I could get 12 for a mere £13 from Amazon. True, I wouldn't want to have to solder them in; but surely a spring-held arrangement would work, even if there was a bit of a power loss?Still, I suppose we are paying for best performance when we buy a dedicated battery so maybe I'll just grit me teeth and cough up. Lataxe, mean with his muckles
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