Here it is the 4th of July, I am in the shop working on a cradle for another grandkid and I discover something. Sometime ago I bought a Shopfox mortiser (which I got at a very good price), which came with one 1/2″ chisel/bit. Hadn’t used it yet, but in the meantime found a couple good Fisch chisel/bits at a good price.
I needed a 3/8″ chisel/bit. Got the Fisch out of the box. And, whad-a-ya know? The shank on the bit is too short. It sticks about 1 and 1/2″ above the chisel. The one that came with the Shopfox sticks almost 3″ above the chisel. The Shopfox needs that extra long shank. I had no clue that there were different sizes.
Two questions!
1. If I were to go buy another make of mortiser, what are the attributes I should look for and what model/manufacturer should I consider? Any magazine reviews you know of? I have since learned the Shopfox has a highspeed motor and others are about 1,750 rpm. Does speed make a difference?
2. Where do I get the right bits for the Shopfox. I looked at Lee Valley website and Woodcraft and they don’t give any specs regarding their chisel/bits so I don’t know if they are the correct length or not?
And, feel free to offer any advice or wisdom you might have on the subject.
Thanks,
Alan – planesaw
Replies
Powermatic. I have their tilting head one. Good fence and clamps. I used a drillpress one before this one and the powermatic is so much easier.
Marion
Which Powermatic, if there is more than one? What is the speed (rpm) and does it make a difference?
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
Alan: here is the powermatic web site . I second the tilt table mortiser..
http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/shop/index.cfm?navPage=4&iid=146548
Alan -- my son just bought one like yours to do a bunch of stairs and he got the chisels from the dealer. They may need honing unless you get the English ones.
Hey, Planesaw, the chisel shanks are not all the same either.
Cadid
Clem C.,
The Shopfox has a couple of adaptors which fits all the chisel/bits I have. There appear to be two different sizes. Is that it, or are there more?
Please educate me as to what other sizes there are.
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
There should be only two. Smaller dia. for the smaller shanks dia and a larger one.
SARGE..g47
I know of two. I don't know how many there are.Cadid
Thanks. And, like you, so far there are only two that I know of.
Alan - planesaw
Give this number a call tomorrow, Planesaw.... 1-800-840-8420..........
Woodstock International is the company that distributes Shop-Fox to the local distributors. We have one down the road from Atlanta in Athens, Ga. The number I gave is to locate your closest dealer.
Woodstock was owned by the same gentleman that owns Grizzly several years ago. He kept the two separate and set up local dealers with merchandise on hand for what-ever reason. Kept Grizzly as a catalog order with just a few large show-rooms?
I have had the Shop-Fox for over 3 years and love it. Put a lot of miles on the machine, so I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability................
You can get Shop-Fox Chisels from a local Shop-Fox dealer. Call the number I gave from their web-site and they will give you the closest to you. I'm sure they would ship. I got an extra set of chisels throw in when I purchased a W1671 for $135. It was all they had in stock and the floor model. Made the offer and they took it.
Regardless of what you read negative about the speed, don't panic. Yes, it turns almost twice the RPM as the others. The inner drill bit does, anyway. The chisel is stationary of course and has a lot of umppphhh with that big lever on the SF. You will get occasional scorch with the inner bit, but the outer chisel removes it when it chops. Instead of a negative, I see it as a positive in extremely hard wood as it's quicker.
Hope that helps.. any further question I could possibly answer.. ask! BTW, ask if you can get a instruction manual if you didn't get one.
Have a good evening...
SARGE.. g47
Sarge,
Thanks! Great info and background. Will call. I thought there was some connection with Grizzly.
Does the speed burn or otherwise damage the bit? I read where someone was suggesting it could cause the bit to lose its temper.
Yep, watching and listening to the Boston Pops' 4th of July event on television.
Alan - planesaw
I'm not a metallurgist fro sure Alan, but I have never replaced the bits. The scorch will come more often in soft-wood as it has more resin and has more tendency to burn at higher speed. Any metal will lose temper if you get it hot enough. Take a coffee break if you feel it's getting too hot. I have the time as I don't have a dead-line.
BTW.. the Fox has a deeper thrust than most machines and has off-table capability in end grain as it will swing off my mount base. That for me is a plus also when I do deep mortises for work-bench bases, even though some I do are in access of 5", so we get out the Barr mortisers. I may start the mortise and take it to the max depth with the Fox, but have to finish the old fashioned way.
I added a front clamp as on the General with a $9 veneer press clamp and devise an alternate hold-down in addition to the one on the machine. Do I think you need a new mortiser. I think you just need to acclimate to the one you have and discover it strengths's and weaknesses. The only thing I would change would be RPM and I would take it down to about 2200-2400... not 1750. That would be a good compromise IMO, as without variable speed you are stuck with what the engineer put on board.
BTW.. even though it was owned by Grizzly, the GZ mortiser and SF are totally different. Now.. are the chisels?? Ask when you call and let me know as I would just like to know.
But... I personally feel the strengths far out-weigh the weaknesses. Oh yeah! :>)
Regards...
SARGE..g47
Edited 7/4/2006 11:20 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Good to hear of success with the Shopfox. I wasn't looking forward to spending money on another machine, but if I had received a ton of negative info I probably would have.
By the way, you mention building workbenches. I am hoping to build a somewhat traditional style bench. What do you build? For yourself or to sell?
Alan - planesaw
About 20 years ago I bought a bench top drill press from Griz and a set of their mortise bits. Once I figured out how to make a proper fence its worked fine all these years (the hold-downs are a little sloppy) with the same chisels, better after I read the latest FWW article on how to tune the bits and what the gap should be, but I there was no discussion of rpms because the review was about mortisers. Mine cuts a little slow but after the rpm discussion I am going to check at what speed I'm running and I'm sure its too slow. I am not sure the speeds are listed on the pulleys but I will just speed it up a little at a time and I'm going to get the cone-shaped sharpener for the chisels.Thanks for the rpm tip.John
It started just for me. I built 4 WB's over the years before I came up with a compromise of all the things I like in-corporated. By adding an upper whale-back to the base, it would take hurricane force to cause movement. Friends that see it and want to build it get an assist if they ask politely.
Most of those are nearing retirement or young and relatively new to WW'ing. At that stage you come up a wee short on large clamps, mortise chisels, jointers, planers, 6'-8' rip capacity, etc...etc. The local need for timber framing ( fond memories) has diminished so it's my summer out-let. At this point in life, some things are not about the money.
I used to have pics in my computer during the old Knots system. Upgraded the computer and DSL and my lovely assistant ( I am a computer il-literate) has not put them back on file. If I ask politely, maybe soon. ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE.. g47
Sarge,
(With a smile and all politeness!) First, what is a whaleback? Haven't heard that term related to workbenches. Second, any chance you have a photo you can post or email?
I like the Shaker style benches and may try to do something similar to them. Particularly with the drawers underneath. I am in that age bracket of not quite ready to retire, but discovered long ago that it is not all about money. Much more peaceful and less complicated this way.
Alan - planesaw
Well Alan, I though everyone knew what a "whale-back" is... ha.. ha... just kidding' of course. I picked it up after Ed from Mississippi called it that. Ed is a retired Navy heli-copter pilot and just mentioned that after he saw a picture of my base without the top.
In other words, I don't have a clue. I know why I added the "whale-back". It gives the base some major back-bone and will resist any movement in the base with the over-all design. The weight of the 26" top rest on it as it under-pins it down the center resisting any sag from the sheer weight. It attaches to the upper end stretchers that cross from leg to leg with a lap joint in the center of those stretchers. The base won't budge when it's there as I had 8 heavy-weights try to abuse it with sheer muscle. That was before I applied glue to the tendons.
I will try to post these pictures. This if from old 35mm prints and I have as little know-ledge about attaching, adjusting color and sizing as I do as to why Ed called it a "whale-back".
Don't expect much and they may be impossible to view. If so, e-mail your address and I will drop them in a letter and USPS them.
Regards...
SARGE.. g47
Excellent idea. I think it will be in whatever design I wind up with. What kind of wood did you use in the base? In the top?
From looking at one of the legs, am I seeing 4 pieces glued together? I have seen some bases made that way. Makes sense to me in that mortise and tenons would be relatively easy and very tight.
Thanks for taking time to include the photos.
Alan - planesaw
You are correct in that they are glued together. The base is Doug Fir taken from beams that I recovered on some old civil war era warehouses being torn down around the railroad yards in Atlanta. The Doug Fir was as straight as the day it was hoisted up and attached. I milled most of that down to small project size. The larger pieces I had already used on various home projects.
When I decided to build final work-bench for me (I seem to have said that before) it would be with what I had on hand. The top is maple I had accumulated from an extra piece here.. an extra piece there and left over gemme's from friends sitting in my wood-rack. The bench has a value of about $220 and that comes from the Veritas Twin screw and the face vice hardware, glue, Watco Oil, etc.. All the actual stock is in essence left-overs.
I am a proponent of waste not.. want not. A work-bench doesn't have to be a thing of great beauty, it should be solid as a rock and designed functionally for your personal comforts so things of beauty can be engineered on it's top and in it's vises for many years to come.
Then again.. to stand solidly against the rigors of daily abuse and endure the test of time far beyond the craftsman himself or herself.. in some eyes that alone might be considered a thing of beauty. Just depends on the individual and their mind-set located behind the set of eyes.
Regards...
SARGE.. g47
Alan,
I built a dedicated shop cart for my mortiser and underneath I put a small rigid wet/dry vac. bored a hole out the back and brought the suction up to mortise contact point. Collects the chips better than expected, but as a bonus, also draws a lot of air past the chisel and bit, really keeping it cool. I found this out while doing 4 small mortises. I was able to touch the chiesel through the whole process with no problem. And with a mobile cart, I was able to keep the DC dedicated to the larger machines. Building a similar set up for the D press soon. Be happy to post a pic if your interested.
Joe P
Sounds like a neat idea - please post a pic.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Saw it a mag, not my idea, will post tonight.
Joe P
Thanks!
My mortiser (Delta) shares a "rotating" work top with my planer. Based on a design published in WOOD about 4 or 5 years ago. I just flip the table over to the tool I need. Works well.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Thats where I got the plans for the cabinet that my mortiser sits on. I had saved the mag and finally got around to building it for the machine. I finally finished the bones of my shop, and I am now doing the final wall cabinets and machine setups and I am using modified versions of the plans that Wood had from Oct 03. issue. Ill post that tonight.
If anybody knows how to go about posting a pic from my digital camera to get it on knotts, I would appreciate some guidence. Not very computer savy at all.
thanks joe p
Evening joe. An excellent observation on the vac pulling heat from the chisel as it keeps the work-piece clean. Two birds with one stone. I dust drape the hose of one of my 2 1/2 HP Shop-vacs over the top and secure with a velcro strap.
I made a base from scrap MDF, 2x4 shorts and whatever else I had left over. Mounted those on a caster base and I can move my little 3/4 HP Shop-Fox in a heart-beat. I love the Powermatic, but what's a poor country boy going to do. Well.. the only thing I can think of is improvise as always. :>)
If you need help with details on how to transfer those pics to the computer, I would think that e-mailing Forest Girl would be a clever move. She knows how to do all that computer stuff.
Here's some pics of my Fox and how I squeezed every ounce of juice from it I could without purchasing the PM.
Regards...
SARGE.. g47
I think I detect a color theme here!
Please tell us that's wood dust on the metal parts not rust.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
It's partly red oak dust and maybe just a tad of rust, dg... :>)
Long story that has something to do with my 93 year old mom and a final battle with dimensia and diabetes that she lost at my home about 8 months ago. I have some catching up to do in the shop as some things have more priority than others.
At this point, the tools have moved back to the top of the priority list. I've been working on one machine at a time for several weeks now along with other catching up around my home. Taking a week off in August and all should be accomplished by then. Like any journey.. you take it one day and one step at a time.
Regards...
SARGE.. g47
Rust is a constant battle in my shop that I'm sometimes behind on. Not too bad this time of year but in the winter, wow, it can grow quick. Sorry to hear about your mom. I bet with your summer humidity the rust grows quick there too eh?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
The summer humidity is a problem with rust in summer if not addressed. I had the TS, BS, drill press pretty well coated with Boeshield T9 and they weren't affected to much. That screw on the veneer press that makes the front clamp will rust over-nite if not coated in wax?
I had worked a large volume of red oak, pecan and red cedar for siding last week-end. The reddish dust generated from a sliding compound mitre got on everything. I use it for most cross-cutting so I can set the TS up with a 24T flat tooth for ripping. I hastily took that pic with a little digital last night to post a pic.
The Makita sliding CS is the only machine I have that cannot be harnessed with a vac system. The good news is I have it mounted on a portable MS stand with casters and usually just roll it outside as I can almost all my tools as most sit on casters. Even in winter here in Atlanta. But, not when it's raining as it was. I set a large floor fan behind it to face the open doors. That helped, but didn't cure as reddish dust now coats my shop in general.
First step is to open the doors and start in the back of a shop with an electric leaf blower. What that doesn't get, will have to be individually wiped from surfaces. Some things had a light coating of oil on the columns. Those will take some time to clean up properly.
Have a good day...
SARGE.. g47
Hey Sarge...Are you the same Sarge that has been AWOL from Knots for many, many months? If so, welcome back!! You seem to have the same gift for gab.....
Yep, that be him, Jimmy! Quick, shut the gate before he gets away again!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The grinder 47 thing threw me, but not the style...or lack of....welcome back Sarge
I do appreciate everyone's comments, advice, and wisdom. I found a Shop Fox dealer a couple of small towns over and got the bits I needed. At $7.50 a piece, and Sarge's experience, they should hold me for a while. And, if they don't, then at $7.50 I haven't wasted much.
This has got to be one of the best communities of helpful folks in the world!!!!
But, this doesn't have to be the end of this discussion. I always enjoy picking up tips and seeing how other's do things.
And, Sarge, thanks for taking time to post your photos and answer so many questions.
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
My pleasure Alan. If ya need anything... shout!
Regards...
SARGE.. g-47
Thanks for the howdy, Jimmy. And if I owe you something... AHHHH...........the checks in the mail! ha.. ha...
Had to make a little modification on the handle as my old SARGE got a claim staked on it after I was gone. Good to see some of the old hands still around and many new ones.
Got an e-mail from Dan at Odyssey Design this morning. He helped me with some bending and round projects on some large counters for our retail show-room at work. Certainly nice to be back and be able to shoot the breeze with "the gang".
Regards from the deep south...
SARGE.. g-47
"or lack of" ROFL!!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Here is the picture as promised. This is a great space saver.
Sarge - pardon the state of my kitchen, the maid has not been in for a week.
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 7/7/2006 9:57 pm by Rennie
Rennie,
Let me see if I understand this. You have the planer on top. You plane one side of the board, then you flip the planer over to do the other side of the board. Right?
;-)
Alan - planesaw
You have a keen sense of the obvious.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Excellent idea and space saver Rennie. Joepez and I are on the way over to run a load of wash and eat. We'll see it when we get there.. he........
I'll be serious a moment (just a moment). When you use the planer, do you get any vibration on the planer-stand or does the way it lock down have a positive hold on the top? An excellent idea, but I have never seen it used with a portable joiner.
I will pass the idea locally as most of us are always looking for that extra space. No matter how much you have, it will always prove to be not enough. :>)
SARGE.. g-47
Sarge,
Soup's on!
I thought the plan for this stand was in WOOD, but a quick search of their index is not leading me anywhere. I'll keep looking.
The top has a simple barrel bolt to lock it in place. The cabinet is double thick 3/4 birch ply and the top is triple thick 3/4 birch ply. Add the weight of the planer and mortiser and you're looking at close to 200 lbs. Minimal vibration.
Due to the ease with which the table turns over, it would also be well suited for use in the southern hemisphere.
Rennie
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 7/7/2006 10:20 pm by Rennie
It was Wood mag. Here is a link to the page but it does'nt come up in the index, so I don't know which issue.
http://store.woodstore.net/flwoce.html
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Close. I saw this one too, but I don't think it's the one I built. Mine was copied almost exactly as presented in the plan, and this one is very different. Also, I think I built my cabinet in 2002, a year before this was published.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Ahhh.... a barrel bolt. Simplicity at it's best. The 3 layers of ply (each layer's grain is also running opposite each other) should hold up about anything. I made some bases using the same method with casters underneath. We use them to display engines on our Year One show-room. They have deflected no more than .004 since I made them 4 years ago. Each holds up a crate engine weighing from 400 to 600 pounds.
With the top secure, the combined weight of both the machines, top and base should eliminate any vibration than could occur. Well done.
Regards...
SARGE.. g-47
I must be living right, I found my copy. It's in the March 98 Wood Magazine issue 104 page 44.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Mr. Green, You get the Sherlock of the month award! Well done. I knew it was an older issue, but 1998! Wow, much further back than I thought.
Thanks!!Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Pure luck I assure you! All my issues are in boxes in no particular order and it was the third one I pulled out.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Rennie, thats a great dust clean out too. Tip and vac, nice table. The plans I was refering too came out after you built yours. Looks very sturdy.
Now I gotta go clean my shop, no I stop tripping over things, then the garden weeds and on and on.
Joe P
Ok, hope this come out. Trying to post pics for the first time.
Rennie, I think you will notice the cab looks similar to the Wood mag plans. I just modified the drawer/door setup. Works pretty good for me. On board dustcolection and task lighting to boot.
Joe P
Edited 7/7/2006 1:17 pm ET by joepez
Very nicely done! I'll try to remember to take a couple of pictures on mine over the weekend and post them for you.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Nice set up, joepez. Now you and I can move our mortisers over to Rennie's wood shop. He's got a kithchen in it and a laundra-mat too. What more could we guys wish for. We can eat and wash our dirty shop rags mixed with whites while be make some shavings. ha.. ha...
Well done on both the base and getting those pics posted...
SARGE,, g-47
Sarge, thanks for the kind word. It was good to be able to finally learn how to post a pic.
Joe P
I have the Powermatic with the tilt table and I am very pleased with it. I have used everything from a drill press with a mortiser attachment to a couple of different bench top models. They all worked but the drill press version was very slow and hard to set and use and I would only use one as a last resort. The bench top versions work much better with the major difference to a stand alone such as the Powermatic being the larger X Y table on the Powermatic which makes adjustment a snap. The extra power is very handy if your doing larger mortises but if most of your work is smaller scale a good bench top is very usable and you might not notice the power difference very much.
The only negative I had with the Powermatic is that it is heavy and very awkward for one person to unpack and set up. If you go the larger route get some friends to help you set it up.
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