I have saved a bit, and want to add to my set of hand planes. I have:
Stanley #6
Stanley #4
Record #4
Stanley 60 1/2 block (ay, ay, AY!)
L-N #62 w/toothed blade (best all-around tool in my shop)
L/N #4
Veritas Medium Shoulder ( another fab tool!)
Shop-made chisel plane (ugh)
LakeSide #8
I’ve narrowed it, in my mind, to:
scraping plane
better block plane, or
scrub plane.
Depending how I go, I may be able to afford two. I have just shy of $300. If I go Veritas, I can get the block and the scraping plane, with no problem. If I go L-N, I can’t quite get two yet. If I get the E.C.E. scrub plane, for about $65 (rather than the L-N for $150), the Vertias low-angle block, and the Veritas scraping plane, I can aaalmooost scrape up enough $ for all three (the wife, ever the supporting spouse, will probably not cry foul if I need a bit extra–shipping, for example.)
So, will the E.C.E. scrub do the job? Or should I hold out for the L-N? Or get a Stanley #40 from Ebay? Or have I overlooked another idea completely? Should I make do with the Stanley 60 1/2 for now, and buy L-N? I could hold off on the scraping plane and get a L-N block and scrub? I want good stuff, but I don’t wanna blow money on status.
Thanks for any opinions.
Charlie
Replies
Personally, I'd jump on a Stanley 40 over on Ebay, and follow up with a 112 with an offbrand blade (half the price that way). Pick up a proper blade from a MWTCA meeting near you! Better yet, scour the trade tables at a MWTCA show and for that kind of dough, you can latch on to four or five vintage planes. The collectors always have lots of "users" out for sale as they upgrade their collections. Heck, there's even a servicable No.66 offered ... with the hard to find curved fence, that'll go for 1/4th what LN gets for his.... and you CAN buy his blades to use in yours.
John
Well, I'm in the Denver area, and kinda have a hard time getting to MWTCA shows/meetings. I got the message from all three of you, though, that I should stay vintage. I'll look around. No opinions about the E.C.E. scrub? The price is definitely right...Thanks,CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
The ECE runs about $80, right? The vintage Stanley is about $40. What am I missing? I use the Stanley regularly, and I can't imagine the ECE is worth an extra $40. My $.02.
Steve
Edited 4/1/2005 1:23 pm ET by Dirt Stirrer
Well, the Stanley's I've been looking at are going for more than that, actually...last night a #40 on Ebay was up to $69 and satill had 8 hours to go. And, the E.C. E. is 62.50 from LV.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
They can go that high, especially if the auction ends weekends. I bought one not to long ago for $35.50. I assume you know about sniping, it works. Have fun,
Steve
No, alas, I don't know--what is sniping?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie,
Sniping is the "art" of bidding on an auction at the very last second. The point being to let an object you want to bid on sit with as little bidding pressure as possible, then your bid at the last second gives the competition no chance to raise because the auction closes.
An aside, I just got done flattening my bench. I used a 40, a 607, and a 4 1/2. It had an 1/8" crown for the full length. My bench is 4'x7', with those planes it took 1 hour to get dead flat. My arms are tired, but, planes are awsome. Have a good evening,
Steve
Ah, yes. Well aware of that technique, just didn't know the name. Well, I'm keepoing my eye out. We'll see.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
I agree with John, go with vintage and you can get a lot of bang for the buck. Get a 40 or 40 1/2, try a 65 low angle block (IMHO the best block made), and a 113. The 40 or 40 1/2 will go for $40-50, the 65 will bring $30-40, and the 113 if in great shape is $100-120. You should have enough left for a 78, which I bet you would find usefull. Have fun!
Edited 4/1/2005 1:16 pm ET by Dirt Stirrer
I agree with Tail Sorpins.
going down the slippery slope eh?
You want a scraping plane? Well theres the stanley 12 series, 12, 112 212, but despite having the first two of these, my limited experience suggests it's just as easy to use hand held cabinet scrapers.
#40- well these are kinda narrow suckers, and ya know, you can pick up a beater #4, or for that matter a #5 for even more levelling effect grind a severe radius on the blade, maybe move the frog back a bit, perhaps grind out the throat a tad, and you got yerself a defacto but more stable device capable of the same thing for a lot less bucks- with a chip breaker to boot. And you can still buy blades for it if you wanna experiment. ( I had to make the blade for my 40)
#4's is as common as dirt, any flea market excursion should yield at least one capable of modifications sans guilt.
You know, there's more than one way to skin a cat. The 130 block planes often have the front end busted off, ergo they become a chisel plane. Get agressive with a grinder on another beater #4, and you can duplicate the same effect, albiet the blade angle ain't quite as "low-down", but for the 5-10 bucks the experiment costs you, and the amount of times you really need a low angle chisel plane, you won't regret the time involved in the modification.
I use a lot of solid edging on plywood constructs , and I "trashed" a #5 handyman plane-no intrinsic collector value for at least another 50 years- by having a fellow old-tooler who had transmogrified into a "metal head" mill a 1/10" deep slot down the centre of the sole. Turned it into an edging plane, to plane down the edging close enuf to the plywood it's glued to to allow me to scrape it smooth quickly. The Electrical equivalent is a "virutex lipping planer" and the cost to go that route was 100 times the cost of the cheapo #5, and it aint reversible even if the grain in the edging decides to do so. For the production end of stuff, I made my own base for the router too, but it's no way near as controllable, and I hate dealing with the burn marks, and the modified #5 is oh so much quieter.
Just my humble thoughts.
Eric in Calgary.
Eric,
I admire your ingenuity. A question about the #4 scrub though. Isn't the key to a scrub plane the ability to hog off massive amounts of wood, which could stress a thin blade, raising the potential for vibrations? The blade on a 40 is massive, while the standard #4 blade is not. Second, why would you want a chip breaker on a scrub? I don't doubt it works fine, but why not just get a #40?
just curious, have a good evening,
Steve
you was saying...A question about the #4 scrub though. Isn't the key to a scrub plane the ability to hog off massive amounts of wood, which could stress a thin blade, raising the potential for vibrations? I guess you could be right about having the ability to hog off massive amounts of wood, but if you use one for levelling, if you wanna hog off massive amounts of wood, don't you suppose an adze would be more appropriate? (grin). When yer levelling that walnut table top, the last thing you wanna do is hog off massive amounts of wood cause that would only increase the risk of damage, after all, yer somewhat careful glue-up should have produced a darn-close-to-flat assembly anyway. Methinks you is gonna creep up on flatness, not try to do it all at once. As for "vibrations" , well you got me on that one, cause while I've experienced chatter, by altnernating direction of cutting or even varying the skew of the plane or scraper slightly chatter is for me easily controlled. As long as the blade is sharp. then you was saying....The blade on a 40 is massive, while the standard #4 blade is not. OK, the cutting edge is still the same on both. Perhaps a ##40 blade may not exhibit the same harmonics, It does however take longer to sharpen, as the bevel is twice as wide. Second, why would you want a chip breaker on a scrub? I don't doubt it works fine, but why not just get a #40?I don't know if the chip breaker would be an advantage, I just mentioned that. Why not just get a #40? 5-10 bucks for a #4 and a few minutes on a grinder, or 50-100 for a #40, and that was the prime reason for my response- ie To present/encourage some lateral thinking, perhaps some economic pragmatism as well. In all honesty, the number of times I've reached for either the 40 or the 40.5 are next to nil, They are also too precious to go out on site. And I do know others use them more than I, and perhaps your experience is closer to that than it is to mine. However I do have a rather similarly ground 220 block plane that I use to back cut mouldings regularly on site. Of course it is coarse but it works (coarsely of course) . If it gets lost or stolen, no big deal. Can I mistreat the 220 with relative impunity? Well, yes, (not that I would intentionally) as the replacement cost or the availability is not an issue. Cheap as borscht. Functional too. Replacement blades available off the shelf. Quite unlike a 40 or a 40.5 which are not generally considered a commonly used planes, but whose function can be replaced at substantially less cost by a small modification to an inexpensive and commonly available plane. Just my thoughts Eric
Eric,
Good response! I've never made the #4 scrub, or used one, so I really have no experience, and was just curious. I've always thought a blade for a 45, reshaped, would make a decent scrub blade. I've got a LN butt mortise plane that it would be really easy to stick that blade into. Might work as well?
I've used an old wood hollow plane for the same function as your 220. I think we're illustrating one of the first things you learn about planes. There is not usually only one specific plane for each job. You usually get a little leeway. Have a good day,
Steve
Dear Dirts.....You know, I dunno about using a butt mortice plane for levelling stock, my gut feeling is that the blade has to be flat for the morticing effort to allow the hinge to set flat. A radiused blade wouldn't provide that. OTOH, it just might work. My butt mortice plane has a honking big throat, but it is also narrower than most butt mortice planes. In the Carpentric world, at least in my brief experience, the primo door-fitatational tools are generally at least two steps above mundane applications. IE, they , the chisels, butt markers, drill bits etc, should be really sharp, and in order to keep them sharp, my experience is that they end up ONLY being used for door fittings. This also in tune with the training I have. You have a set of tools used only for door fitting, nothing else(period). And while I ignored this training in my early years , I've revisited it, cause when the job calls for door fitting, you know that when you take out the "door fitting" tool rolls, boxes etc that the tools you are taking are up to the job, and not trashed by the run=-of-the-mill general carpentry tasks nd require re-sharpening on site, generally a let down in quality from sharpening in shop situations. IE, these tools gotta be keen and workable, with perhaps a slight honing. When you can go into a house, throw down a tarp, cut down a door,re-plane the bevel, shim the hinges, clean up and be out of there within the hour, It portrays professionalism. Try to achieve that with dull or trashed tools, and it does exactly the opposite. The blade I made I made for my 40 was from precision ground tool stock, hardened and tempered. It ain't that hard to accomplish with grinders etc that most folks who are at this stage of consideration seem to have at hand, , and while I had the luxury of having a rockwell tester to see how I had done, it coulda just as easily been done in-situ, ie by seeing how the darn thing cut and kept it's edge. The chunk of tool steel will likely set you back only a few tads more than a 45 cutter on the "collectable" marketplace, and you'll have no guilt trip about trashing a good old tool. Besides, the excercise will undoubtedly prove out to be valuable in the future, as will having the extra tool steel stock in the cupboard. You may not even think twice about making another tool cutter, once yu done it once. Besides, having the chunk of tool steel will allow you to make custom cutters for yer 45 when the need is pressing. The modifications to the 220, I will add, were done on site to suit a particular need, , with the aid of a belt sander to radius the blade, a piece of MDF and and a couple of grades of sandpaper. I had no other choice- modify a 10 dollar plane on site, or spend three hours of travel to go get a tool that would do the job according to the text books. To me, perhaps not to others, it was a no-brainer (made particularly easy cause I knew I had at least two or three other flea market 10$ 220's on the shelf at home), grinding up this one wasn't gonna pose economic hardship upon me, in fact, doing so would do exactly the opposite, provide an economic benifet to me which justifies the rate I charge my clients. That may seem at odds with me suggesting trashing a #4 to make a furring plane, but there are lots of trashy #4's out there (later models particularly) that would benifet from a new beginning. OTOH, there are lots of stanley 45's out there suffering cause someone abused, misused, or mislaid parts. Hate to see another one bite the dust. I dunno if you completely agree with me and thats yer privelege and right to do so, but I compliment you on not digareeing with me simply because what I proposed ain't congruent with what the illumiati-mags keep suggesting to the neophytes. Spend big$ for little used tools, BTW, did the "dirtstirrer" moniker come from out of the blue, or was there a reactionary component to it from day one?Cowtown Eric
who would be another WWing cowboy if only he could find his horse in the garage......
Eric,
Nothing sophisticated about my moniker. Until three months ago, I was a farmer, hence the stirring of the dirt. Now I could be Bean Counter, or or something, but I'm still a little partial to Dirt Stirrer. I've got a couple restaurants I'm trying to keep behind with the bills with now.
I think we have the same approach for tool modification. If you need a tool you can make faster, if time is an issue, or cheaper if money is the cheif concern, then it might make sense to fabricate. I certainly don't begrudge your ingenuity.
In fact tomorrow I'm going to make a dovetail plane out of something. Not sure what yet. I wish I had some tool steel laying around, and I'd try a whole new plane, but as is I'll probably figure out someway to use the bevel cutters from a 55, probably with the 55, to clean out the deepest part of sliding dovetails. I'm thinking rough them out with my trim saw, then clean them up with the plane. Anything to avoid that blasted router again. Still in the planning phase as you can tell.
I think your picking great choices to modify. Good solid tools, but common as dirt. Why not make em do what you want? BTW, I didn't mean to modify the 45 blade to fit the butt mortise plane. With the simple lever cap mine has, you could just remove the good mortise cutter, and replace it with a large hollow cutter from a 45 or 55. Like you said, the throat is enormus on the butt mortise plane, and for this to work at all, you'd need to pay attention to the grain, but I think it would work in a pinch. I'll stick to my scrub though.
Might I ask about your moniker? Why Cowtown? Have a good evening,
Steve
Wow, you really get into making them your own, don't ya? Well, as I understand things, the narrowness of the #40 is not an accident; it's to give less resistance as you hog of deep cuts. Your points are still valid, though. Lots of ways to get the job done.CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Charlie...
the LV 112 might be worth checking out; it has a few more tricks up its sleeve than the L-N and from what I hear it's every bit as effective...
You've read my opinions of my 40 1/2 before... I make no secret of it retiring my thickness planer... need I say more...????
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hey Charlie, I was at the James Bay site and they have a really nice looking scrub for I think $100, that might be worth checking out if you are thinking of LN type cash. Peter
Yeah, wow, that thing looks great! I tried to give them a call; guess he's not at work 24/7. I'll give them a call on Monday. Thanks!Anybody got feedback on their rep? Will the tool come flat and ready or need work? How 'bout their customer service?CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
Hey Charlie one more thing, I think a lot of their tools are available as kits if you want to save some money. Peter see you in a week, I am off to Jamaica to get married!
Holy Cow! That's great! Set aside the single malt for some top-notch rum, eh? Congrats, and best!CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
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