Out here in Phoenix, all of our middle schools and high schools have closed the shop departments years ago. Budget cuts. My sons did not attend wood shop, metal shop, car shop etc, none of it existed and you had to bus to another school for the “dummies” if you wanted to have a shop class. In our case it did not matter, they had been doing it for years
I am just curious, how many of us went to shop class and how many areas around the country still offer shop classes.
Do you guys in Vermont and NH still have shop in the schools?
Did you get started in woodworking because of shop class?
I did, it was the first time I could go into a room full of different woods that I had never seen before and pick out a board to work with. My first bird house (willow) wasn’t even good enough for firewood. I still play chess on my chess board, even if it does have some nice warps from the Belt Sander.
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Late 50s
Had mechanical drawing class.
Drew a wall lamp.
Had shop class.
Made the lamp.
Took jewelry class....
Wired the lamp.
Ugliest thing I'd ever seen.
Took it home. Parents said I would be a surgeon.
right.
Did not get started in woodworking because of shop class.
No shop classes out here on the O coast.
NH here,
The local school has a limited shop class in the sense that they focus on industrail topics as opposed to building trades.
However, just over the river about 8 miles away in VT the local school there has a really good curriculum. They have two courses that run all 4 years in the high school. One focused on building trades and the other strictly woodworking.
In the Building Trades course they have a really interesting approach: they rebuild an entire house over the course of 4 years. The students get to experience all phases of the building process.
Granted this creates a situation whereby a student enters the course at different stages of construction, but they do experience all phases over the 4 years. The finished project is then sold to help fund the program and contributions in the form of materials are accepted.
The Woodworking course covers design, modeling, furnituremaking as well as arts with respect to woodworking, i.e. turning, carving, etc. They also make molding and architectural components (corbels, columns, etc.) for the Building Trades course too.
These courses are very robust as far as I can tell compared to others parts of the country. Of course it helps that Ethan Allen has a furniture factory nearby. They donate a lot of materials to the school and many students end up working there after graduation; sort of a symbiotic relationship you might say.
And here's the real kicker, at least for me anyway. Once a month local enthusiasts are envited to do show & tells about different experiences that compliment the programs. These are held at the school after hours for the students.
I've had the opportunity to present as well as attend several times. Wanna take a guess as to the turnout for the sessions!? Community involvement is something to behold.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I would guess it is a packed house, 400 or so? Maybe even more.
That is a very robust program, building an entire house in 4 years is as intensive as it gets. Some lovely trades involved there, demo, insulation, roofing and plumbing that many wouldn't care to do. Which reminds me, have you ever noticed that plumbers don't chew their fingernails?
Kudos for being involved and being a presenter. I always volunteer at the high school for career day. I do landscape design and construction and we get to build some interesting things. I get the kids involved from the minute they arrive in thinking about things they would enjoy outside. Then we show them how to start putting it to paper and what scale means... An hour just flys bye.
Later AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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I'm impressed that any programs still exist in this era of cutting costs, litigation and the distillation of generic knowledge. I'm REALLY impressed the with scale of the program you speak of. My biggest concern would be what might happen if Ethan Allen is beaten into submission by the "import or disappear" dragon.Regards,Ron
Hi Ron,
My biggest concern would be what might happen if Ethan Allen is beaten into submission by the "import or disappear" dragon.
Those fears are shared by many folks in the area. The implications reach far beyond their involvement within the program.
It's interesting that you mention thos fears. A while back that very topic was brought up in a meeting of the minds with the teachers and contributors. You might be surprised at the response.
Let's look into making our own stock. I know someone with a portable sawmill. I can make some space in an abandoned barn on my property for storage. Thees were some of the responses I heard.
I'm in the beginning stages of forming a woodworkers guild/club and without even trying we have 9 members; a posting soliciting interest is ready for the local newspaper. There are several retired former Ethan Allen factory workers, doing woodworking as a hobby who will be joining. Lots of interest to say the least.
Perhaps the biggest news is that the local development group will be putting the finishing touches on a new Arts Appreciation Center here in town this summer. Everyone is involved with this project. The new club is moldings and architectural trim, cabinets, etc.
All in all it's a very exciting time around here what with all the economic gloom. Good ol Yankee ingenuity I like to call it. With retirement right around the corner I doubt I'll be looking for something to do in my spare time.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I had shop in the eighties. Did blacksmithing, woodworking, machineshop, welding, drafting. It cemented a lifetime enjoyment in wood.
I hope it does not die. My son took machine shop/welding in vocational school this past year. It's still offered. They did not offer woodworking. His schools programs were geared towards manufacturing.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Azmo,
Wow did your post bring back some fond memories. Our HS (mid 60's) had excellent classes in both wood and metal. I was already a fledging WW (my father and grandfather were into WW) so I spent more time in metal shop. We were taught both arc and oxy-acetylene welding, machine lathe basics, and how to do minor auto body repair. One class, over a two year period, built a 1/2 scale farm tractor!
Other electives included archery, rifle, golf, and tennis.
By the early 70's all that stuff was gone: too risky to let kids around all those dangerous tools and weapons. It's a damn shame.
-nazard
Those classes are largely gone in our area. They were replaced by:
Blewcrowe,
Yep sounds like our local High School also. One of the reasons my son went to a Community College for his senior year and transfered the credits so he could graduate. He loved his welding class and being treated like a person instead of a number.
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It's great that your son had and took that opportunity. We had a school such as that but it was partly state funded, and the state is in dire straits so the funding has collapsed. Later.
Denny
You left one out: Visiting whore houses as a part of cultural awareness!The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
I teach in a private school (in VT) where woodworking is an important part of the program from 5th through 12th grade -- all with hand tools, starting with carving and shaping with rasps and working up to joinery in high school.
-Andy
Andy, can you post a link to the school web site? I would love to see what is out there. Makes sense to me that you learn to work wood in Vermont!
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I went to school in the days when boys took industrial ed. and girls took home econ. we had full metal shop, wood shop, small engines, graphic arts, etc.
These days I run the shop at a medium sized university. Most of the incoming students have never been in a shop much less touched a piece of lumber. Teaching woodworking is pretty much like teaching kids how to write for the first time.
I do notice however there has been a resurgence in interest at some public and private schools of reintroducing shop classes. Studies have shown using hand skills and exercising manual dexterity can increase the students I.Q. or ability to learn.
Ted, sounds like an interesting job. You must have tremendous patience to teach at the beginning level. It has to be fun to see kids pick it up and really run away with it all.
WW is the best way to learn fractions. Adding 32nds and 64ths gets tedious. Then measuring it out on the board and keeping the accuracy a challenge. Of course you make a mistake and have to revisit or improvise a solution. Spacial arrangements, curves, hidden joinery, have to challenge anyone.
Well lets all go do some more and raise our IQ!
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I never attended " shop " at school. I lived it at home. My Grandfather went through the woodworking apprenticeship in England before immigrating to the United States. My father was a building contractor / woodworker for almost 50 years.
My first tool was a coping saw my dad gave me somewhere close to when I started school (5 or 6 years old). It's been a love hate thing ever since. :)
Paul
In our area, MD, except for vocational school, shop classes have been replaced by classes devoted to teaching students how to pass the exit exam; something they should have learned already!
Dick
Not quite true. Baltimore City, County, Anne Arundel, Carroll, Harford, Howard, Montgomery (and probably most of the other 23 counties) all have woodworking classes but they are limited to one school in each county, usually a Career/Technology facility.
The best programs are in the private schools and there are many - the best I found was Gilman in Baltimore ($18,000/year). They require the students (sons of bankers, lawyers, etc.) to take woodworking from kindergarten through 8th grade - high school is optional but many continue in the program. And they are turning out beautiful work!
The problem with Maryland is there is nothing beyond high school - a school like Thadeus Stevens in Lancaster PA would be wonderful (the school is only open to PA residents) but everyone in Maryland wants to work on the government gravy train!
Here in BC, I took all 6 woodworking classes offered. The shop was well equipped and was well sized. In grade 9 and 10, we had an experienced shop teacher which was great. He retired that summer and another "tech" teacher from the automotive department was brought in to teach the courses. He had basic knowledge but I think he was really flying by the seat of his pants as much as many of us were. I probably had more experince and knowledge of woodworking than he did, as he always taught automotive classes. A couple years after I left, I heard that they had stopped offering woodworking classes.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
So far we are lucky in Saline, MI (Ann Arbor) . We have machineshop, welding, auto, electronics, graphic arts and foundry in the HS. We have a full WW shop in the Middle School with an excellent teacher and we also have CAD in the Middle School. I guess we are lucky so far. I wonder how long our classes will last.
As you can see depending on where you are, it is pretty much hit or miss as to whether a school offers "shop" class. You would also have to look at what type of school you are looking at also. If you are looking at a traditional high school (college prep or gen. ed) you will find smaller "technology education" style classes, the current rendition of "shop" class. Depending on the focus of the program it can range from computer applications, computer hardware, manufacturing, construction, design (CAD, graphics, computer programming, etc.) - technology based curriculum. To expose students to different career paths, as well as some basic "hands on" skills. On the other end of the spectrum if you are looking at a "career technical" school (a stand alone institution, like in Massachussetts, or regional style centers attached to a local high school, the New Hampshire model) you will see what most would recognize as "vocational" schools - trades based, although more and more are transitioning to more current skills based programs as well (computer technician, nursing, marketing, multimedia, engineering technology, CAM). These programs would definitely match the traditional trades, plumbing, electrical, construction, automotive, welding, HVAC, cosmetology, etc. - which are still offered.
So, why does it appear that "shop" classes are disappearing? Mostly because they are evolving and changing to meet the needs of the current population and educational values (research "no child left behind"). Some may say we need those classes that teach the measurement, hands on, appreciation of the design/build process, it is still there, just in a different format. As you look at it, "shop" class is dying, something that most of us remember fondly (I am 37 and took all that I could in high school).
The plain fact of the matter is with funds falling short, schools make decisions dealing with program offerings, that make the most sense to the largest population and relevance to today's society. When you look back and compare how many jobs were available in manufacturing and industry (manual trades, industrial arts) - those jobs were plenty and the skills needed were taught in those program. Today the programs represent what is needed and relevant.
I teach, at a career technical center, in New Hampshire, as a pre-engineering instructor. I teach CAD, CAM, basic manufacturing processes, basic business, robotics and automation - skills that today's students need to be successful in modern careers.
I am not against "shop" class, they do still exist, just not in the traditional format as much.
Scott
Scott,
Informative and thank you for being a committed teacher. Your passion shows.
Here in Phoenix, we used to have a technology section also. The students designed and built a solar race car (solar is one thing we have). When my sons were headed to school the program was cut for funding. The high school is a prep school for college. It did not offer any courses that you teach. I wish that it had. Band class has been cut and so has the arts. Shop class was fun, didn't it break up your school day with something besides books, reports, labs etc? Basic meat and potatoes is great but I preform better with a little chocolate in life.
So if I follow your logic, we should be teaching management classes in Chinese and Urdu? Not a true question, a social commentary on our country and what skills we will need. We have lost our manufacturing base, we import most products that we use, and we are rapidly loosing out overseas skills in engineering. We need more programs like yours in basic school programs. A different kind of shop class, but you are definitely taking an academic program and adding a tactile element of learning.
Again thanks for being a teacher!
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We had wood-shop and metal-shop, mechanical drawing.. home ed... etc. I became interested in WW as my uncle was an old-timey carpenter who built houses for a living from a 3' and 4' wooden tool-chest. But.. I really got hooked from HS shop class.
Here in the Atlanta area these are to quote a southern classic.. "Gone with the Wind". I suppose funding is the key even though the kids of today don't seem to be the hunters.. fishers.. riflemen.. etc. as we did. Electronic devices seem to keep them busy about 18 hours a day.
BTW.. my main reason to take wood shop was not to prepare for a trade.. I was a woods-man and anything that associated even remotely to forest and nature in general was right up my alley.
Regards...
Sarge..
I was actually speaking with another teacher this morning, basically saying the same thing...I was telling him that we should surrender now and let the Chinese come in now and "fix" us. His reply was to just let them keep growing and take in more and more of our culture...that's when we will have them on the run...basically let them implode as we are. My only concern would be who would they offshore to when they get to big for their britches?
Thanks for the comments,
Donkey
On the technical front, unless the skills require the worker to be present to perform the task, then I hate to say that most of that work is headed offshore. I have been seeing the trend for a while now and its not slowing. India was the first big push, but pressures drove up the costs and then the baltics came on and started to grow. The next huge push will be China. You can spec it and send it there to be done at the fraction of the cost of doing it stateside. Its unfortunate but thats the nature of capital chasing the lower labor cost. Someone recently asked is it was a good idea to become a programmer right now, I said if you want to just write the code, the answer is no. If you have good interpersonal skills and can understand the business and lead teams, then you will be ok. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
High tech (computer) offshoring goes back to at least the mid 80s, maybe before that. Call nearly any tech support and if you can't speak at least 47 different languages you'll likely not understand the person on the other end.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
State of the art facilities."There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-- Daniel Webster
Way too funny!
:>)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
AZMO
You must understand academic type people see shop classes as a threat. The school superintendant and principle etc. are all academic paople.. naturally they want programs similar to what made them successful..
I took wood working shop class once and failed miserably.. The old six fingered instructor was forced to be heavy into the adademic teachings of shop. It was more than 50% of your grade.. In addition he terrified me and others like me into making mistakes.
MY father felt working with your hands was demeaning so I never learned a thing untill a teenage boy I was competeing against boys who's fathers had taught them all the tricks and techniques..
That convinced me I was a dolt and I would have gone through my whole life hating wood working and toolss. However I had a Corvette I used in work and needed custom formed boxes to hold all my books and phamphlets. So I attempted to make one.. What do you know? I was successful!
One thing led to another and I built my own double timberframed house..
You must understand academic type people see shop classes as a threat. The school superintendant and principle etc. are all academic paople.. naturally they want programs similar to what made them successful..
I don't know if threat is the right word, but I have to agree with your overall assessment. Academic type teachers don't understand this type of class. Both Home Economics and Industrial Arts have been on the decline. The 'woodworking' portions have been replaced by 'construction'.
I think its a shame and intimately is selling the students short. Both parents and students want their children to be successful, and they don't see trades as being a viable route. Worse they seem to dismiss any value in these classes.
I've heard that some schools are offering pure fluff electives like 'Crime Scene investigation'. Courses that have no value in real life. Rather than fill up schedules with these 'waste of time classes' schools should focus on the core subjects and the subjects that have value in the future.
"...they don't see trades as being a viable route."
And so they don't sign up for shop classes. That's why shop courses are being dropped--insufficient demand. A school can't justify maintaining the infrastructure for a high-overhead course that few students want to take.
"I've heard that some schools are offering pure fluff electives like 'Crime Scene investigation'."
First of all, that's not necessarily "pure fluff." At the college level, at least, a program in forensic sciences includes microbiology and molecular biology, organic chemistry, etc. Far from fluff.
Second, schools are offering those kinds of courses because they're in demand. While it might be nice for a school to be able to say, "We know what's best for you," and refuse to offer courses that it deems don't lead to a promising future for the student, I think most parents would assert that it's not within the school's purview to make that decision.
I, too, lament the lack of opportunities available to aspiring craftsmen in our schools, but the idea that "academic people" don't understand the value is pure nonsense. The truth is that schools have very little money, these kinds of courses cost a lot, and fewer and fewer students want to take them. Under the circumstances, the schools simply have no other choice.
-Steve
Steve it's not all student demand .. at least not in my area.
This is a good discussion and one that comes up less often in the last 8 years as communities have adjusted to the rationale behind one program being dropped and another being added to the course offerings in high schools across the nation. As another knotter mentioned, No Child Left Behind has had a profound impact on the way schools are doing business. It�s almost a �survival� mode of action on the high school battlefield.
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As a high school teacher of 15 years(after being a flight instructor-15 of my 20 years in the USAF) I can share a couple thoughts �from the inside� of day to day high school education. I�ll try to describe the environment that I operate in to give you a starting point but, a couple key ideas I hope to develop are germane to most parts of the country in a multitude of settings.
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The buzz word across the states of NC, <!----><!---->Virginia<!---->, and <!----><!---->South Carolina<!----><!----> is work force application. This is the starting point of frustration and disappointment. The standard of measurement for �shop like � courses has an expectation that no other courses have on most campuses. In my school, we have carpentry and auto tech but we lost electrical trades and brick masonry. These students were not going in the electrical trade fields or brick work fields in large enough numbers. How is this measured you ask? Unfairly. They had to have a job lock BEFORE they graduated much like a student accepted to the <!----><!---->University<!----> of <!---->X.<!----><!----> Not enough employed graduates and out goes the program. No thought given to the skills and knowledge the students learned in the course. The student is left with choices like a course that shows them how to change diapers and care for a baby by caring around a 5lb bag of flour all day. I can�t connect the dots.
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I might add that the numbers broadcast for students going to college are a joke in my view. The high school gets a merit badge for getting XX% of kids enrolled in a college. No one is held accountable for the important fact: that 45% in NC do not complete their freshman year. Where do they go? What do they do? Maybe the miter box class was more important than King Lear? (probably didn�t read it anyway).
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Point 1. The basic hand skills that high school students learn in a woodshop type class are skills for life. More importantly, they are transferable and they are a foundation most students do not have when they enter the room. For the last 15 years, I have never had more than 23% of my students from a home with a mother and father. The majority of my students live in apartments and never learn to fix anything. They learn to discard everything that has the slightest problem. The concept of repairing something needs to be developed somewhere in their lives�it is not happening at home so shop classes can be that window of learning. Measuring precisely is another skill most students do not have. They need practice to develop accuracy and confidence. Most students are used to saying �I can�t do that� and the adults accept it and they get to sit down. Shop classes are very important learning experiences to get away from the �I can�t� mindset.
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To make a point, years ago I wanted the students to bring 3 knives from home that needed to be sharpened. Before I could do that, I had to get approval from the central office to have a knife on campus. After a month of waiting it was approved to have the parents bring them up (no school bus transport of knives). Of the 100 students I had- less than 10 followed up. You get the picture I hope.
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Regardless of the obstacles placed in our path, we all learned to sharpen things safely and carefully. All of the students were so proud when they learned how to sharpen an edge and not blue it. (a grinder and scary sharp stuff). This is the bait. Once you make them feel good --things start to happen.
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Point 2. Not every student who comes to my high school from the three surrounding middle schools has their compass pointed at <!----><!---->Duke<!----> <!---->University<!----><!---->. This is understandable to most adults looking at the community picture-- but very difficult for some parents to accept when thinking of their child�s future. Most of the parents that I am dealing with do not have a college education. Like my mother, they think the only way to make it in life is to earn a college degree and success will find you. This is a big debate and there are plenty of positions with lots of good reasoning. Enough there.
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What keeps you going as a teacher? Hope. I have changed in a big way in my 36 years of training/education work. At one point in my journey I had young men(Lieutenants) coming from the top universities across the country to learn to be jet pilots. Lots of energy and motivation. As an instructor, you were just �pumped up� everyday.
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When I punched out of the AF and parachuted down to the high school landing zone, life changed. People in the room were not there by choice they �had to be there� for several reasons. A different audience � a different teaching plan my friends.
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In my opinion- nothing matters more when you are with the students than leading them by example and staying �pumped up� with what you are doing. People love positive energy. I sure do. I had a good time in Prisoner of War Training School because my fellow prisoners never got down and the instructors really worked at busting you !@#s. It was fun resisting. I don�t know if my students are having fun resisting my training or they like being around someone who loves working on projects but they keep coming back for more. Building things while the students work endorses the activity like nothing else. They see that you like it and you are not just doing it to �keep them busy� doing something. In the end, I know some of them will build something someday when I�m pressing daisies but I do draw some joy knowing they might never try if they had not met me. Maybe its just wishful thinking but I still get a letter now and then expressing a little gratitude for the tips passed on.
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Edited 4/10/2008 5:04 pm ET by danmart
I didn't mean to imply that student demand is the only criterion. But certainly, there's no point in offering a class that no one wants to take.
"The basic hand skills that high school students learn in a woodshop type class are skills for life."
Any teacher can make the claim that the skills taught in their class outweigh those taught in other classes. The only sure bet is that they're all wrong. Having been a physics professor, I can assure you that a solid grounding in physics is the most important life skill you can acquire, by far. ;-)
Here at Ohio University, the administration has been pushing for greater student retention. Good deal. But they also want to increase enrollment (more students = more $$$), so they want to lower admission standards. Not so good--the average student is already sufficiently ill prepared. Oddly enough, when they lower standards, retention goes down. Huh--I wonder why that happens?
Regarding No Child Left Behind, it's an excellent example of how a basic concept that most everyone can agree upon gets morphed into an exercise in figuring out how to game the system, to everyone's detriment. It's all smoke and mirrors.
-Steve
Points well taken Steve. It frustrates me when I think of workmanship and where it seems to be going?? My lense is a bit cloudy these days but its still focused well enough to see ambition and pride in workmanship. I'd like to see a bit more.
later
Steve, when I went back to college in the early nineties, the engineering professors were shocked at how little background the students had in shop classes, and were starting to require basic shop courses in the engineering school.
It is hard to teach things like mechanics of materials to kids who haven't ever really observed a moving machine, and don't know "righty tighty, lefty loosey".
These days, college professors are shocked by how little background many high school graduates have in anything. My wife is a professor at Ohio University, and I used to be a professor at Oklahoma State University. The number of incoming students who need to take remedial English and/or math is appalling.
-Steve
PC dumbing down. This pretty much explains any lack of basic math and reading skills. Ten years ago I took some college courses at the local play school and day camp. It was so pathetically PC that I wanted to puke. They are only concerned with telling people what to think instead of teaching them HOW to think! This pretty much sends people who CAN think running and screaming for the math and science departments.
I was taking technical classes in welding, drafting, and machining. The drafting class was top notch and taught by an old task master who didn't miss anything. As a result I can draw a blueprint on the board or a computer. The welding instructor's approach was: "There's the welder and you have a book; if you have any questions I'll be in my office." As a result I can "bird turd". He was a walking argument against tenure.
My local high school dropped all shop classes about 10 years ago and sold off all the equipment. No more metals, automotive or wood shop. Everything has been replaced with computer classes. Which, by the way, do not include computer drafting.
"Everything has been replaced with computer classes."
I'd really like to know what they teach those schoolkids in those computer classes gnome. I teach furniture making at degree level, and I've never yet found a new student straight from school that can use even basic programmes.
Ask any of those kids to write a report or a dissertation and not one will even really know how to use Microsoft Word. Most of them don't even know how to do a Page Setup, let alone know anything about Formatting, Footnotes, Headers, Footers, Page Numbering, Tables of Contents, Indexing, Glossaries, Spellchecking, the Find function, etc.
Whatever's taught in these ICT classes at schools, I'd guess it can't be how to use what is probably the most commonly used programme in the world. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Black Dagger,
Don't worry, they don't use english this side of the pond either. Seems that texting is reinventing the language, and all Word does is correct your spelling. So that program is of no use to anyone with a cell phone these days, which is about 99 pct of your class?
Twisted you are from those crazy dovetails. I enjoyed your web site, and the wonderful work. The instruction on the twisted dovetail gives me one more thing to figure out. And I thought regular dovetails were a challenge! Skaal
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"I've heard that some schools are offering pure fluff electives like 'Crime Scene investigation'."
First of all, that's not necessarily "pure fluff." At the college level, at least, a program in forensic sciences includes microbiology and molecular biology, organic chemistry, etc. Far from fluff.
This is a high school level. It's fluff. It's a class being taught by an instructor with absolutely no qualifications in the subject. You don't need a class in crime scene investigation in order to become one... you need core classes like Biology, Chemistry, and physics. To join the police here you need a university education, while CSI high school appeals to high school students it's meaningless in the real world.
In demand is a nice thought, but these public schools have the right and I'd say the responsibility to run courses that have some meaning to them. It's not that hard to do, beyond the basics (English, Social Studies, Math, Science) there are art classes, physical education, language, drama, music (etc). While I'm not saying every child should take Woodworking, or art or any course... These are the classes that actually have some value to students in the real world.
...I think most parents would assert that it's not within the school's purview to make that decision.
But this is basically what the schools are doing. deciding what courses can be taken and not taken. Unfortunately they're swayed by trends in TV rather than tried and true courses (Shop Class 50+ years in school, CSI 1 year). While I'm not advocating a static approach to education, lets be realistic about where to spend limited education money.
When I was in Junior High we all had to take a series of "life skills" classes consisting half of basic shop and half homec classes.
Shop: basic drafting and basic hand tools; home electrical; appliance repair and trouble shooting; basic automotive repair and trouble shooting, painting and trim carpentry; and, furniture repair and upholstery.
HomeEc: basic clothes mending and laundry; nutrition and basic cooking; advanced cooking, and grocery shopping; sewing and clothing, (how to shop for clothes that fit and last); interior decorating; and, child care.
That school board seemed to remember that their mission was to prepare us to be productive members of the society, and not just prepare some of us for college.
Academic Types...Which makes me/you/us? woodworker types? Can we really define a "woodworker type"? Do we consider the Academics a threat to us? Intimately? Why would c.s.i. be fluff? We know that as populations increase, the percent incidence of crime increases... If the class has students look at tangible materials while following certain protocols,in order to achieve certain goals, how is that different from woodoworking? I believe that learning to plan, & to use critical thinking, is more important than the medium (woodworking, c.s.i.) used to teach it.
Which makes me/you/us? woodworker types? Can we really define a "woodworker type"?
Sure you can define a 'type'. While there are always exceptions to a type I'm sure that hobbyiest 'woodworkers' fall into a relativly small demographic (male, older, middle class). Does that mean all males are woodworkers? No. Does that mean females can not be woodworkers? No. Does that mean woodworkers can not also be acedemics? No.
I would actually like to clarify that only a few teachers would qualify as the acedemic type anyway. By calling them acedemic types we are refering to their apparent priorities. Acedemic classes.
CSI is a fluff class. Would you encourage your child to take it over a second language? Would you encourage you child to take it over a woodworking class? As I mentioned before. The class is fluff since the teacher has absolutly no expertise in this area. How can someone teach what they don't know?
"learning to plan and to use critical thinking" Fluff terms to justify a fluff course.
Really good comments here folks! I have a degree in Industrial Education and quit 2 years ago. Reasons are many but mostly poor support from administration. Things like Kids not following safety rules allowed to continue in the program even though they fired a nail gun at their classmates. Administrators get paid based on the number of students in the school. You start getting rid of the kids and the money goes too. Also, an industrial education program gets X amount of dollars per student. Remove the student and ............ you know the rest. Let's keep in mind how IE started. Industry needed an educated workforce for manual skills, hence manual skills training. I don't want to get into the philosophical changes that have occurred but instead wish to emphasis the need for industry to get involved again. In all the years I taught I only got 2 calls from industry asking if they could help out. Also, I got about the same amount of calls from parents. Not to say I didn't do my part to extend my programs influence in the community. At university the first thing we were told was that IE is a program that you must sell at any opportunity. That’s the only thing that keeps it alive at a school. If the community is involved then an administrator is less likely to think about touching the program or reducing the budget. Of course all this works best if you have educated teachers and as mentioned in the posts many universities have eliminated the shop teacher training programs. I urge all those interested in IE programs to attend the next parent teacher night and talk to the IE teacher. Even if you don't have a son/daughter attending go to the school and ask for the IE teacher. You will find them usually sitting alone. On a good night I only got 10 parents out. If you want to help this would be a good start. Also, I think it would be beneficial if we started an idea section here where we list ways of helping. One idea would be for someone to do the leg work and go to a woodworking supply store and talk to the manager. See if you can place a sign some where on a counter. Have the sign say something like, help our woodworking class buy wood. Tell the cashier if you want to add 1 dollar to your purchase. At the end of the month the total is added up and the shop teacher comes down and picks out the wood he needs. Of course tools are nice also!!
We "academic" types (I'm a teacher) had nothing to do with the decision. If you want someone to blame, the problem was caused when the politicians took over the schools.
basset-hound
I'm sorry but my experiance has been that the administrators of schools all come from academic backgrounds. When push comes to shove and the school board tells them to reduce costs they don't eliminate French or Calculus even though only a rare handful of people will make their living doing either of those..
Instead they eliminate Shop classes. Even though the skills taught in those classes will impact a majority of students.. We all need to know about our transportation yet auto shop is almost always the first gone. Wood shop and metal shop as well when far more people will make their living with wood or metal than will ever use French.
That's because politicians rate high schools (and middle schools) based on the percentage of students who go to a four year college or university, not if they become productive citizens. Besides, school boards are politicians too. They are elected to office and often no nothing about the schools. Most of our school board members have never even visited the school where I teach. Their decisions are based solely on politics, not student needs.
Man, reading your response made me chew the rest of my tongue off. Lot's of truths sad to say though.
I guess that one must completely devoid oneself of any form of common sense to rationalize it. What a sick situation and then there's NCLB! Really makes you wonder doesn't it.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
basset-hound.
Politicians don't run the classrooms.. instead they delegate that to superintendents and principles.
They are the ones deciding which classes to cut and eliminate.. Not the politicians.
Now you and I can have a good debate about how much money should be spent on education and I think you'd find me even more liberal with our tax dollars than even you are when it comes to supporting school budgets..
On the other hand I am deeply opposed to the trend towards the mega high school. Instead I would build a whole bunch of small schools. Total attendance under 100 and what's more I would limit class size to no more than 10 at the very most! 5 should be the norm!That's right,, one teacher per 5 students!
I would also dramatically increase the school day and cut summer break down to one month. (I'd give a month at Christmas as well as two weeks in the spring and two weeks in the fall)
I would absolutely eliminate homework. and this back pack mentality of hauling heavy books around would stop.. About time information is put on disks so the student merely hauls around his lap top..
I'd go to uniforms for everyone..
But chief thing I would do is make shop classes part of all curriculums. If you are great at academic subjects and do poorly at wood shop that affects your grade as much as doing poorly in any other class..
It's time we become really well rounded and learn that excellence in one area isn't justification for acting superior.
Boy, are you out of touch with reality in "today's society." I sure wish I could have that much control. Politicians, not educators have decided what I must teach as well as how the students will be tested. They have also set unrealistic goals for the test scores.
Your idea of school size and class size would be FANTASTIC!!! Would you run for public office so that we could have them? You'd sure get my vote. Research supports the idea of smaller schools and class size, but politicians decide on funding levels, not educators.
As for homework, our school board (politicians not educators) dictate our homework policy. If I had my choice I'd get rid of it too. BTW -- It's the parents and the students whi insist on having backpacks. Homework from me is never more than a few sheets of paper. I don't send the books back because students forget to bring them back. My students don't need backpacks, but they have them. It's amazing how much they decide to carry in them.
Contrary to what most people think, the summer vacation isn't three months long. Next year our school district will end on June 21 and begin again before the end of August. A month at Winter Break and two weeks in the spring and fall would be just about as much as we get now. Our school year is actually based on "instructional" minutes. Recess and lunch do not count.
Uniforms would be nice. We (teachers and educators) tried that at our school, but the parents refused to comply. The school board (politicians, not educators) would not allow us to require the uniforms.
I, as an "academic type" person, fully agree that when shop classes were taken out of the schools that it was a BIG mistake. They contributed greatly to our society in more ways than can be listed here. But, again it wasn't the educators who decided to get rid of them.
Basset-hound,
I was involved in our school system and I know that the budget was set by the school board and it was up to the administration what got axed and what stayed.. Administration did play games with the budget, they kept threatening to cut football etc.. and yet somehow funds were always found for that even when it meant several teachers were laided off.
As for those tests etc.. yes, now days it's teach to the test inorder to get rankings. but those classes only take a relatively decent size chunk from the budget.. there still is advanced placement classes. Still are language skills taught etc..
I admit I live in a community where they actaully have too much funding. Average home is in the millions. I don't really have any first hand experiance with what inner city schools are going through.
"About time information is put on disks so the student merely hauls around his lap top.. "
As bassett-hound said, you seem to be a bit out of touch with the educational scene frenchy.
Old fashioned CD's are history. Books are still in, and so are quality journals with expert contributors. Research of academic texts online is in, meaning Wikipedia is considered an unreliable source because of the anonyminity of the contributors, although Wikipedia is sometimes useful as a secondary resource. And newspapers are in too.
Seeing as CD's are out, you need to know what's current. Do some research on the VLE. That's in, and educational institutions are falling over themselves to provide their students with a VLE. My college is test driving Moodle as I speak, and the college where I study educational theory uses Blackboard. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
SgianDubh,
I'm sorry your last paragraph is greek to me. But I don't speak computer. As a matter of fact since it doesn't have a set of points to adjust or oil to leak out I hate computers.. <grin>
Put one down in the luddite column.
Well, I put it there deliberately. It's the way education is going.
I thought you might enjoy a five minute research exercise into VLE's-- on the internet of course, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
SgianDubh
I still don't know what a VLE is (nor will I bother looking <grin> I do know that colleges are more progressive than public schols are, So I have no difficulty believing what you claim..
On the other hand based on those I see on some school boards I'm surprised they don't arrive in cars with hand cranks. (or in a horse and buggy)
Too often it seems like the little busy bodies who make up the average school board would rather have a rousing debate about what the school colors should be rather than accept the fact that our Kids aren't something we should put in a education assembly line and just crank out one model..
Building anything well takes time and effort. Making our children good citizens is supposed to require care and effort on our part.. If we educate our children cheaply we wind up with poor cheap citizens..
I hear a lot of people cry that we don't put enough money into public education. It's popular to say teachers and schools are underfunded. Here are some facts from our community in NJ.
Whereas I can send my kid full time to Rutgers University for well under $11,000 a year we're spending close to $15,000 a year per grammar or high school student.
My sister in law is a French teacher (not far from retirement so she's been with it awhile. Setting benefits aside (that are a dream package), she makes over $80,000 in salary a year. Now, while that aint no Hillary Clinton income, it's darned near triple the county average income.
Just a comment about the statement above: "Whereas I can send my kid full time to Rutgers University for well under $11,000 a year we're spending close to $15,000 a year per grammar or high school student."The $15,000 is a the result of adding the total cost of running the school and dividing by the number of students; it is not the same as a tuition amount. The $11,000 at Rutgers IS a tuition amount but does NOT cover the full cost of running the university, so the comparison is apples to oranges. If you want to find a comparable figure for Rutgers, you will need to find out the total operating budget of the university (which should be accessible to the public) and divide by the total number of students (grad and undergrad). I am certain that you will find that the figure far exceeds the tuition amount, and will indeed be much higher than the total cost per student in the public high schools.
-Andy
I'm not sure I follow. The cost to my kid to attend Rutgers is 11k. The cost to the taxpayer to attend grammer is nearly 15k. Are you saying the university is subsidized or something?
Companies and all levels of government (local, state. federal) pour vast amounts of money into colleges and universities. Yes, even private institutions like Rutgers receive very large amounts of government money. Often the money is given in the form of grants, but it is also given in the form of gifts.
Edited 4/18/2008 9:52 am ET by basset-hound
Very true. I know that the state gives quite a bit to the local systems, too.
A significant source of infrastructural funding for research universities (like Rutgers) is overhead on grants. I don't know what Rutgers' overhead rate is, but it's probably around 45%. So, for example, when a physics professor is awarded a $500,000, five year grant from NSF for his/her project, the university gets an additional 45% of that amount ($225,000) over the same period, to use for supporting the general category of "physics at Rutgers." That helps pay for bricks and mortar projects, clerical and other support staff, etc.
-Steve
The cost to your _family_ is the tuition. But the total income of student tuition does not cover the total cost of running the university.
Check out this link about Rutgers budget:
http://budgetfacts.rutgers.edu/Based on the figures on the Rutgers website, the total cost per student (for approx 50,000 students total) of operating Rutgers is somewhere in the ballpark of $25,000, maybe even more. Even the front page of the Rutgers website cites huge grants and donations as "news."Bottom line: cost per student and tuition per student are two very separate figures, and cannot be compared.If universities actually charged tuition based on the notion that it would cover the cost of running the school, the average tuition would be even higher than what our population (and the world at large) already consider to be a high cost to the individual.I'm sorry that this topic has drifted so far off from woodworking. But to assume that the finances work in the way you were suggesting above would be like assuming that a piece of furniture should cost the same as the rough lumber that was used to make it!
-Andy
Edited 4/19/2008 9:23 am ET by VTAndy_
The cost I quoted was from local tax. How much do the state and federal funds that come into the school offset the actual cost of the public classes?
Hi,It depends on the particular school and its budget and programming, and to a certain degree, it depends on your state and local system of collecting property taxes. If you are saying that a statement said something like, "Our local high school costs $15,000 per student to operate," then that figure is derived by dividing the total operating budget by the number of students enrolled at the school -- it is NOT a tuition figure. If you did the same thing to the Rutgers budget, you'd get a figure higher than the $11,000 in tuition that you paid -- quite simply, the tuition income does not add up to equal the operating budget. The figure I get for Rutgers, looking at the info that is posted on their website, is much higher than the $15,000 per student at your local high school. Perhaps I am not stating this clearly enough and you need a comparative list:Tuition:
Public high school: $0 Rutgers: $11,000Operating cost per student:
Public high school: $15,000 Rutgers: (?) $25,000-30,000 (rough estimate)The point is: it is not the case that Rutgers operates on a lower per-student operating cost than your local public high school. It does, however, charge a higher tuition than your local high school, which does not charge individual students. Colleges simply cannot charge their students for the full operating cost. It is misleading to compare tuition cost of one school to the operating cost of another.
-Andy
I guess what I'm asking is, if the local costs of public school are say 15g per student, what are the actual costs after one tallies in the subsidies of the state and federal funds?
Hi Blewcrowe,It is different for each school. Find out the total operating cost of the school and divide it by the number of students. The fed and state input might already be figured in to your school's $15,000 figure. Or, depending on the state system, there might not be any direct state and fed funding -- it might all stay in the state's dept of ed without getting routed into specific local schools. In my state, the cost per pupil varies between about $8500 and $12000 -- and those figures include fed and state input, as far as I know. In some localities, this cost-per-student figure is called "tuition," but it should not be confused with tuition _charges_ at colleges/universities, which do not reflect the total cost of operation.The bottom line is: I assure you that Rutgers' total cost per student is higher than your local high school's comparable figure. -Andy
Rutgers' total cost per student is higher than your local high school's comparable figure..........
I don't doubt your word. I'm just really stating what comes straight out of the payer's pocket.
Actually, you were making it seem like Rutgers operates more efficiently than your local high school, because you naively assumed that the figure that you had for the high school, $15,000 per student, could be compared to the tuition that Rutgers charges -- $11,000 per student. You compared apples to oranges. If you want to compare cost per student, Rutgers spends ($1.7 billion divided by 50,000 students) well over $30,000 per student. It's not that difficult to understand. Your original statement was: "Whereas I can send my kid full time to Rutgers University for well under $11,000 a year we're spending close to $15,000 a year per grammar or high school student."Add another $33,000 per year for your kid at Rutgers and that is the total cost per student (approximately). So your rant against people who say that we don't spend enough on public ed (grammar and high school) is ill-informed. The cost to the "payers" is higher at Rutgers, it's just that the payers aren't who you think they are.Perhaps a visual will make it clearer for you:
http://budgetfacts.rutgers.edu/pdf/revenue_sources_pie.pdf-Andy
Edited 4/21/2008 5:03 pm ET by VTAndy_
The article listed below will explain why there is not any money in the academics budget.
http://www.uni.edu/unitedfaculty/posted_documents/Intercollegiate%20Athletics.pdf
blewcrowe,
See what you didn't tell me is what's needed to judge the validity of your statements..
For example you focus on $80,000 a year income.. How does that compare to others with her level of education training and experiance? Does she have a master's degree or is she working on one? Does she have a doctorate or working on one?
How much experiance does she have? How difficult is it to be selected for those positions?
I will tell you that here in Minnesota If you get hired at the richest school district in Minnesota you will have several years of teaching under your belt, you will have a 4 year degree and a teaching certificate.. You will be hired on a part time basis and earn in the low teens if you are lucky and then when you are finally hired full time you will earn in the mid to low $20,000 range (depending on what you teach)
You will eventualy get to $80,000/year after decades of experaince and most of your summers spent getting advanced courses, education, and training..
New hires aren't offered the same level of benefits as older teachers are..
She has a 4 year teaching degree with 25 years. That's about as much as I know. Starting teacher salaries in this area are around 48k.
blewcrowe
Are you sure that's starting wages? Most often school boards won't hire unproven teachers.. They require them to have some actaul classroom experiance. Another words you need to start out part time before you can work into full time.
I know there are always exceptions. But it's extremely rare from someone fresh out of college to get a teaching gig.
Frenchy..
I hear you! One of my daughters started out with a Masters in Education.. Not sure what the title is exactly called...
She couldn't get a (starting) teaching job because she was to well qualified! Really.
She gave up with the public schools and now teaches at a Catholic school.. She seems to be having fun but hardly any money! Not sure what she makes but she sure ain't rich!
I know somebody that is a Dr. (something) in mental health for the State for MANY years. As a service man, I made more than she did! She likes working with the children, so she stayed.. Been there many years and she still likes her work but she does get depressed.. We talk... We all do our own thing...
"Instead I would build a whole bunch of small schools. Total attendance under 100 and what's more I would limit class size to no more than 10 at the very most!"Now I teach a university in a state that has many small schools. I can easily spot the students from small schools. In most cases students who have taken four years of math, etc. in small schools are not nearly as well prepared as those who come from larger high schools and have taken four years of math, etc. Usually small schools do not have the resources and teachers who can teach all subjects well as the larger high schools. When I taught high school I found that very small classes did not perform as well as larger classes. Classes of about 20 did better than classes of less than 10. It was partly because students got the benefit of watching other students working. The biggest difference was when I started doing pieces of my own in class. Students could see me use a hand scraper and watch me do dovetails in class. When I taught high school I had about 140 students each day. I taught them basic joinery such as how to cut hand cut dovetails. They spent one year doing exercises. Then the following year they made a piece of furniture. The high school gave me tremendous support. About 14% of the students took my classes. In fact my classes almost doubled during the time I was there. If a student was not doing well in another class I would talk with the teacher and ask them about the student’s performance. I used that as a lever to get the student to work in the other class. Many times I would send a student to the library to get their work done from the other class. When I did that it told the student what I thought of the other classes. Every week I had a short lecture and the students were responsible for a quiz each week, a midterm exam and a final exam.We will get what we expect. If we expect them to do nothing they will. If we expect their best we will get that too. Currently I have a student who had less than 40% from a class he previously took with me. He blew it off thinking I would pass him just because he was there. This semester I talked with him and told him that he was smart enough to get As but he was lazy. He got 98% on the midterm this semester. He has one of the highest grades in class. I have seen that repeated over and over.
gb93433
I went to a public school and by the 5th grade I had major problems. Mostly caused by breaking my leg in the 2nd grade missing most of the year due to teacher neglect and given "political" promotions untill the problem became too serious to ignore any more.
My father took me out of public schools and put me into a small private school.. In that school They found out I had dyslexia really bad. They also cured my problems with numbers.. (it's a form of dyslexia where numbers transpose themselves)
The cure for dyslexia was speed reading..the cure for numeric issues was similar.. work the numbers fast enough that they don't get twisted up)
Those two years in a small class size helped me massively.
However you do have a valid point about small class sizes in some cases!
You see small schools also have small budgets so the teachers they get aren't really the best teachers available. They are the bottom of the barrel typically..
Few teachers want to teach for tiny wages and if they get a chance they would rather move to where the compensation for their efforts is more in line with the efforts they spent becoming a teacher..
In my solution of small school sizes that especially means that teachers have access to all resources. The pay for all teachers would also be near the top rather than near the bottom.. I believe students should get the very best rather than a mass production low cost per unit approach.
I agree completely with your approach of teaching the whole student rather than just your class. That's one of the advantages of a small school.. you know which students have what needs and how best to help them.. when Johnny needs special attention in math or history that's what he gets. It's really hard when school sizes exceed 3 or 4000
That's extremely hard to do in a 30 or bigger class room size.. In a typical 55 minute class period, once attendence is taken, assignments handed in notices read etc.. a teacher is lucky to get 30 minutes of actual teaching.. That's assuming nobody needs special attention or asks a question etc..
If that is the case the teacher has 60 seconds with each student.. Pretty hard to deal with just 60 seconds.. Too often teachers just deal with those loud mouths and trouble makers and leave the shy and bashful ones alone untill it's too late..
I was an instructor for three years and then again differant subject& students and for a couple of semesters.. I taught extremely complex and difficult to comprehend class where typically fewer than 8% got passing grades. My score was 100% because I violated nearly every single rule and tenant an instructor is supposed to obey..
In doing so I connected with the students enough so that they wanted to learn.. at first it was because they wanted to be part of the fun and ultimately it was out of shear eagerness and competitiveness. Nobody wanted to be a disappointment.
So I know a few things about teaching..
Bottom line.. take your ability to teach,, the access you have to equipment and aides. Now devote that to a small handful of students and you tell me you couldn't do a better job?
I found that a good sized class was up to about 20. Less than that and it seemed that the students learned less. Over that I was not able to help the students as much.I found an incredible difference when I started making pieces in class and watch me work on my own work. Before I did that I spent a lot more time showing kids how to do something and solving mistakes and problems. At times several students would come around me and watch me do something. I always made pieces of furniture that were much more difficult than they could make. So they saw how I handled more difficult pieces. In the top level class I taught them to sharpen an array of tols such as plane irons, wood chisels, and spokeshaves. I also taught them to layout and hand cut dovetails, wood selection, resawing their own veneer, veneering, joinery, frame and panel construction, finishing, coopering, mortise and tenon, drawer construction, making some hand planes, jointing wood, how to glue wood, how to use hand scrapers and cabinet scrapers, using and fine tuning a dovetail saw, and the care and use of sharpening stones.
However I had a Corvette ..
I and my wife bought a 1964 1/2 (I think what it was really called. As I remember.)
ALL the factory goodies.. 365 Hp, Close ratio manual Trans. Solid lifters.. Stupid 4:11 for city driving LOL.., On and On.. We just loved that car! As I remember factory delivered.. it was about 5 grand with a full tank of gas!!
And then we realized, it would have paid for 1/3 of a house at the time! Being young was fun!
academic types.. My Son-In-Law has a Doctorate in Early Child Education.. He LOVE HARD ROCK! School is one thing his music is ANOTHER..
I was really lucky as a kid.. Mom let me and my brother do ANYTHING! Hurt a few times.. Mom was a Army Nurse and we have been sewed up a few times with needle and thread by her at home! IT HURT!
Edited 4/16/2008 10:11 am by WillGeorge
In New Jersey during the mid to late 60's I took metal shop, wood shop, 2 years of mechanical drawing / drafting. I think this was a great background. I didn't start any serious woodworking until after I got married and bought a house with a detached garage.
My kids attended HS in Maine and as recently as 4 years ago they still had a woodshop class (at least).
Almost all woodshops in middle and high schools in the Chicago area were discontinued. I salvaged a bench top and some bench vises from one of them!
As a retired shop teacher, let me put in my 2 cents worth.....
First Shop (Industrial Arts or Technology) is quite expensive, as we need LOTS of supplies, expensive equipment and a repair budget.
Second: The school lawyers are afraid just that one minor accident will lead to multi-million dollar law suits
Third: Here in New York, they have replaced Shop with something called 'technology.' You can teach technology without EVER going into a real shop. It can be run in a regular classroom with just a hot glue gun, some cardboard and a text-book.
Fourth: This whole 'No Child Left Behind' fiasco foisted on the education system by President Bush has the mistaken aim that all students are college material and don't need to know about saws or wood or metal, as EVERYONE will graduate and become a doctor or lawyer and we know that doctors and lawyers don't ever get their hands dirty in shop.
Fifth: Most colleges that prepaired Education Majors to become Shop teachers have closed down these departments. When I graduated college in 1964, New York had four colleges teaching Shop Teachers. Now they're down to ONE!! Of course, (see reason #1) and second, we don't have the industry trained staff who are willing to teach the teachers because the 'new' college administrators don't believe in (expensive) full time staff, just a lot of part-timers.
Sorry about the rant, but SOMEONE... read US... has to let the school administrators know that we NEED trained students to work in our shops.
SawdustSteve .... And I still can count to 10
SawdustSteve
As a 2 year woodshop student in high school and then a career machine designer (not wood machines) I can well imagine that the schools have had to discontinue all of the industrial shops. As you mentioned that the lawyers were worried about multi million dollar law suits. There also is another side to think about and that is the cost of all the equipment used, due to the product liability insurance that all machinery manufacturers must carry in order to remain in business. By the way that cost is added to everything we buy today and that has got to be part of the reason that products are no longer being made in this country and jobs for our young people are disappearing.
I have to leave it at this so that I don't vent all my wrath. This is the first time I have ventured into this forum although I have been reading most of the post for quite a while now
Sorry to hear your schools no longer have shop classes, I took one year of woodshop at Thunderbird high (then north Phoenix area) in 1977 and it was the only quality class in that school at the time. They had a nice shop and you could take up to four levels. They also had metal shop (friend of mine made a cannon on the metal lathe:) and auto shop as well. I think it is to bad the schools can't or won't offer these types of classes. I do think it is good for people to have some idea of how things work and how to make simple things. Even if kids don't go into the trades they learn to appreciate things that are well made or a job well done. On a side note here in Alameda CA they don't have any shop classes in the high school but they do have one in the middle school my daughters go to and it is a very popular class. I think that unless we want to drastically increase our school funding we won't have much besides the basics. Here in Alameda they are cutting the Athletic programs be cause of budget cuts.
Troy
I take woodshop. fun class.
There's enough youth in this world, how 'bout a fountain of SMART??!!
Well Andyfew322 you are on your way to a lifetime of enjoyment. I am glad to hear you like shop also, most of us (all of us) enjoyed our shop classes, one of the fun things to do in a day full of English, Math and History.
If you get a chance post some pics of your projects. We all built some rather crude objects to start with, so don't worry about that. Keep up the work, and always measure twice.
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*)
"We all built some rather crude objects to start with" are you calling my projects crude!?! ;O only joking 40313.1
There's enough youth in this world, how 'bout a fountain of SMART??!!
Edited 4/10/2008 10:57 pm ET by andyfew322
I have not seen one yet! So it is up to you to decide the level of craftsmanship. I have seen a lot of beautiful work by students, that are well beyond my wood working skills. It is amazing to me how easy it looks for some kids. Where they get the skills so early is beyond me. So pony up and post a pic.
Andy I missed your link to the pics of your table. Very nicely done and I am not sure everyone's critique of your legs is correct. The style right now is for a different proportion, but in design you could be on to the next thing. I have some old Fine Woodworking Furniture books, edition 1 and 2. This about 1983. The furniture is very organic and lots of funky curves. It looks odd today, but back then it was the rage! Krenov comes along and we see a sleek style, which will look dated also. The question is why did you choose the proportion? Was it planned or easy to do? If that is the style you like, then by all means pursue the design.
Keep up the work and enjoy the effort. Ask Santa for some new clamps, you deserve them.
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Edited 4/10/2008 11:14 pm by AZMO
It's sad to hear the state of alot of the shop programs particularly in the states.
I'm a woodwork teacher in a High School in Richmond BC (Vancouver) and things are ok here, compared to some of the schools you guys are metioning in the states.
I hear alot in this school district and in other that funds are really tight and enrollment is low but there is interest. the school I'm at has 1400 students and we only offer 3 wood classes but we also have metal work, metal design, autocad, aviation, Grade 8 applied skills so it does thin things out numbers wise.
As much as there has been buget cuts I feel that we still have been able to run a pretty decent class.
I feel our program is pretty good considering there hasn't been a steady wood teacher at this school for the past 4 years. Hopefully there can be some continuity at this school and the program can build.
Where have you been? Haven't you heard that we are now in a global economy. The Western World is now called "New Rome". Sit back relax and have some grapes, Vino and cheese. All will be well! History doesn't repeat itself ;-) My foot.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I would lay here and eat grapes. But I need a couple nymphs to hand feed them to me.
I found this quote on a wood teacher site.......
Matti Bergstrom, a professor and neurophysiologist from Sweden wrote:
" The density of nerve endings in our fingertios is enormous. Their discrimination is almost as good as that of our eyes. If we don't use our fingers, if in childhood and youth we become " Finger blind" this rich network of nerves is impovershed-which represents a hugh loss to the brain and thwarts the individuals all around development. Such damage may be likened to blindness itself. Perhaps worse, while a blind person may simply not be able to find this or that object, the finger blind cannot understand its inner meaning and value.
If we neglect to develop and train our children's fingers and the creative form building capacity of their hand muscles, then we neglect to develop their understanding of the unity of things; we thwart their aesthetic and creative powers.
Those who shaped our age old traditions always understood this. But today, Western civilization, an information -obsessed society that over values science and undervalues true worth, has forgotten it all. We are "value damaged."
The philosophy of upbringing is science-centered, and our schools are programmed towards that end...... These schools have no time for the creative potential of the nimble fingers and hand, and that arrests the all-round development of our children and of the whole community."
I am also a woodshop teacher in Vermont and that is good old woodshop, not 'Tech Ed" I try to get them into the shop building things with a simple goal in mind, that is to be able to use hand and power tools safely. Some make great things, others only ok stuff, but they will learn safe practices. Hopefully, they'll have some understanding of the efforts put into some of the simple things around them. Maybe they will value the tradesperson a bit more. Perhaps they will take on more challenges around the house as they age. I'm really not trying to produce cabinetmakers, in fact having been one for 20 some years I have a realistic idea of how hard it is to do well.
My penny and a half....
Can a 55 year old be in your wood shop? Probably not, but there are some schools for us out there.
I wonder how many of us use a feeler guage and not our finger tips? I sure do. Trying to plane out two machined surfaces is easier to do with your fingers. Then check to see you did the job right. I was bolting on the wings to my new thickness planer and my fingers were right on. Leveled by eye sight and checked with my machined straight edge. No adjustments.
Yep got to teach them kids to thread bolts standing upside down hiden from view...with the washer and locknut....:>)
Thanks for the input and your 1.5 cents worth. Thanks for teaching the class. I really respect that.
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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My penny and a half....
Well, at least you didn't give us your two cents worth.
Vermont..
No Middle Schools shop classes left. We have many good vocational programs here for High School. Many of those programs no longer include woodworking. Building trades is as close at it gets. And our non-profit "Craft School" has stopped offering a middle school aged woodworing program. Though they said they would consider investing in one if I would teach the class. The problem is that when you stop teaching kids for a while, you stop maintaning a school for young folks. So now the school doesn't have 20 block planes,20 mallets, ect. and the workbenches are all the wrong height. The school would need a grant for about $10K to get set up. Then the benches would be at the wrong height for the adult classes.
I thought about opening my own school..Now you have me thinking again.
Let me assure you that it is not all budget cuts. It is also a lack of teachers. Essentially there is 100% placement of Industrial Arts teachers. The problem is getting them. Why would an Industrial Arts teacher work for $24,000 when the average graduate in the same field makes about $55,000 in industry? After three years of teaching IA at the high school or middle school the number remaining is close to zero.
If you really think there is no money then read http://www.uni.edu/unitedfaculty/posted_documents/Intercollegiate%20Athletics.pdf
A documentary was on television a few months ago which stated that $5 billion is spent of intercollegiate athletics and they take in $4 billion for a loss of $1 billion!
GB,
Teachers in general, let alone shop teachers are grossly underpaid compared to the open market. I have thanked each and every one who has responded for their dedication and commitment. Admirable to know they value what they do, over what they could make. I can't imagine what it would be like to run a shop in school these days, the paperwork alone could drive a guy crazy.
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Before I went to college, I had every intention of becoming an Industrial Arts teacher. While attending my last year of high school my guidance counselor informed me that the University of Cincinnati had an Industrial Arts Education program so I applied to the school and was accepted. My first day of orientation at UC in 1991, one of the school administrators sat down with me and asked me what my major was. I said "Industrial Arts Education". The guy looked at me with a dumb-founded look and said UC hasn't offered that degree in 20 years. So, I picked Business Administration and five years later I graduated with Bachelors degree in Marketing.
I feel I'm way better off now for that decision. I'm sure I make three times as much now with my Marketing degree as I would be if I had an Industrial Arts degree and I have more opportunity to do something else if I have to change jobs. Plus the majority of the local high schools dropped Shop Class so I probably wouldn't be a shop teacher anyway.
Here's one reason you won't get many industrial arts teachers: With 25 years of construction & cabinetry behind me, I applied for a part-time teacher's assistant job at the local "industrial arts" high school (for woodworking classes, this would not have had me trying to help kids learn to weld or anything else). Ten hours per week, $10 per hour. They turned me down flat, as "not even close to qualified". Their requirements "... a minimum of 25 years teaching experience at the high school or college level, with extensive successful business experience in boatbuilding or cabinetry (20 years or more). The successful candidate will hold a minimum of an MA in education from an accredited insititution."
"a minimum of 25 years teaching experience at the high school or college level, with extensive successful business experience in boatbuilding or cabinetry (20 years or more)."
Something's well out of whack there. To reach those levels of experience after gaining your MA in extreme underwater ironing, or whatever, suggests that suitable applicants for teacher's assistant are somewhere between the ages of about 60 and 65-- just in time to retire.
After all, you're not going to get that amount of experience in two distinct professions concurrently. You'd have to do that consecutively.
To give you something to make a comparison with I worked full time in the furniture industry for over thirty years, I have a relatively low ranking City and Guilds qualification in Furniture, and moved straight into running and teaching degree level furniture design and making course(s) at Higher Educational institutions.
My experience of industry I suspect was invaluable in securing my position, much more important than being an experienced teacher, and I suppose it helped a bit that my future employers recognised me from my published writings on furniture subjects. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Its time that I chimed in. I believe that here in New York state we are making unreasonable demands on young people. My grandmother became a teacher with permanent lifetime certification after one year of training in a "normal school". Her daughter (my aunt) required a four year degree plus 30 semester hours of graduate work. My certification required the same except the graduate work had more restrictions and had to be done within five years of starting to teach in a public school. The next step was to require a master's degree and then the master's degree had to be in your specific area of certification. The recommendation now is for young people get bachelor' and master's degrees before starting teaching (probably 6 years of post high school education). There are "content area tests", video tapings, finger prints, background checks, probationary periods, fees and most of all a lifetime of student loan payments to make (a colleague and his wife make $200 per month interest payments).
In short, one reason that programs are disappearing is because of the difficulty in finding teachers and one reason for that is we have made it unreasonably difficult to become one.
Oy. I have a friend who taught industrial arts in NY city public schools, and he mentioned a lot of the things that you wrote about in your post. Those are some of the reasons why I went into teaching at a private school, despite my strong belief that education should be provided to all who pursue it. I'll never be paid as well as a public school teacher, but I have freedom to develop programs to meet the students' needs without pandering to ridiculous trends that are forced into the schools by politics and popular misconceptions about the nature of learning. At the end of the day I am satisfied rather than frustrated, and the students' experience is more positive as a result.
-Andy
Sometime read The World Is Flat 3.0: A Brief History of the Twenty-first Century by Thomas L. Friedman.The US had one of the leading educational systems in the world at one time. Now it is steadily sliding behind other nations. Sometime read the article at http://www.uni.edu/unitedfaculty/posted_documents/Intercollegiate%20Athletics.pdfYou will see where the money is going.$5 billion goes into intercollegiate athletics from academics and recovers $4 billion for a loss of $1 billion of the taxpayers money.
Well out here in the hinterlands of Penna., (where one of the presidential candidates made fun of us for clinging to our firearms and religion) we still have shop classes!
In fact, several years ago (2004) one of the neighboring school districts sold off all vintage iron and bought brand spanking new iron for the high school kiddo's. At that auction I picked up a Unisaw, a Delta 8" jointer, a Powermatic Model 45 lathe, a Delta pedestal grinder with air cleaner/spark arrestor and a Delta very heavy duty floor model drill press. All for the low price of $1400.00! All was replaced with new Powermatic iron, mostly American made to boot.
Our school district plus three neighboring school districts share in a "Vo-Tech" school for grades 10 thru 12, with courses of study in carpentry, electrical, machinist, beautician, computers, etc. These "Vo-Tech" schools are popular in our neck of the woods, but then elitist politicians have not enlightened us to do away with them!
T.Z.
Yes we still have shop classes in KY but I can’t vouch for the quality. Back in the 70’s I had a wood shop and a metal shop class in high school. As I recall in wood shop we had one piece of community sandpaper with no grit and the cutting shears in metal shop could not cut anything. We spent most of our time melting pennies in metal shop. One kid had his long hair pulled out by the roots after getting it caught in a wood lathe. Oh the memories! No grit, dull scissors, and bloody hair (ha).
Edited 4/14/2008 9:22 pm ET by woodman1234
I had woodshop in the mid 80s in Junior High. It was a half-year class. We made plaques and picture frames. They were still able to fit in academics, athletics, art, music, journalism, etc. My son is in school now - no wood shop. However, the academics are a much higher level than what I learned back then. They write more, do higher level math, analyze literature, consider major political systems within the context of the geography of regions, do biology that I didn't get until college, etc. etc. All of this has happened in the Texas Public School system.
However, my son is one of the college-bound students. His experience will be quite different from those who are not headed for college. We have a huge drop-out problem here - because there are no longer meaningful classes for those who won't go on to college. Ultimately, this is extremely foolish - for us all.
The way the world economy and environment are headed, it will become more and more important for us to have what I call basic life production skills - gardening, building, cooking, clothes making and the like. Right now we are at least two or three generations away from a time when most people used these skills as a matter of life - survival and just for enjoyment. That leaves them at the mercy of the big corporations and governments that now supply those things for us. That is no way to live.
Texas huh? I'm not to fond of the guy that started all that down there. Get ready for the NCLB (No Child Left Behind) to leave the better part of an entire generation behind.
I actually agree with you there. I think the changes were made prior to the Bush policies and they succeeded in spite of his meddling. The changes started with improving discipline methods in the schools. The concept was called Zero Tolerance (for violence and disrupting the classroom). The idea came from and was promoted by the Texas Federation of Teachers. Greater discipline in the classroom allowed teachers to teach without fear of being attacked or having their classroom repeatedly disturbed. Higher standards were also introduced by introducing new curriculum standards such as the International Baccelaureate system. These changes did allow school to meet the needs of college bound students well - and that improvement should be applauded. The failure in our educational system to continue teaching basic life skills is one that makes all students poorer though.
I hate to talk good about Massachusetts because I’ll never understand their politics. However when I was watching one the project shows on the DIY channel they took a tour of a school that many would describe as a high school - trade school. Every other week they double up on the basic academics (2 daily math classes, etc.) and the week in-between they teach the kids how to be carpenters, bakers, landscapers, etc. They say there is quite a demand for their graduating students. I think they were able to accomplish this by cutting out many of the B.S. courses the kids will never have any need for in life. I think they have hit on something that is an outstanding idea. They were very defensive in calling it a trade school because the kids were getting the academics.
A sad story, Just today I had an X shop teacher in the store who told the horror story of how His school closed up WW Shop classes. A contractor came in to dismantle the shop and scrapped all of the shop tools, All Powermatic at that. We discussed HS classes and wondered just how many computer programmers are needed in this country!Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce,
That was kind of the standing joke during the last month of high school. We all knew that the class was going to close soon, so we would say "Oh, they won't need that table saw anymore. We'll just tie it to the back of your truck -nobody will miss it." We slipped a few cases of sandpaper out and some other small supplies. Tax money at work, as we called it.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
flairswoodworks,
It was the same way when we came back from Vietnam.. This was the last cruise of the old WW2 essex class carriers and following deployment they would be mothballed. Out at sea we were ordered to dispose of all ships stores not needed within the next 3 weeks..
Hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment went into Davy Jones locker. Yet if we had taken any of it we would have been courtmarshalled..
The Navy's word for that was comshaw (Taking government property without authorization)
I am the High School Manufacturing Technology teacher in the Ambridge School District. My class is an elective for all students grades 9-12. I have six out of nine periods a day dedicated to woodworking, about 85 students. We build everything from small stools to step-back cupboards to canoes. Woodworking is here to stay in the Pittsburgh suburb. We recently moved into a new High School and it cam equipped with a woodworking lab. It will stay up and running for as long as I have anything to do with it!
Aww right!
Let's all give a standing ovation to da man!
View Image
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
At least half of the local H.S. students round these parts are pregnant. So, we'll have to give the man a standing ovulation.
Sounds like a great program you have, and your comitment is exceptional. I had a good laugh, imagining you with a plane in your hand, you can take my shop away when you pry cold steel from my hands!
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For the kids, Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
none of it existed and you had to bus to another school for the "dummies"..
Yes them so called "dummies" ARE NOT THAT DUMB.. Probably just bored to death AND way to smart for their own good at their age! .. I'd bet most are smarter than above average!
AND the so called Professionals/School Administrators that know EVERYTHING.. Are the real 'dummies' that closed the classes!
Ever wonder why so many kids on the streets killing each other and folks that get in the way?.. Nothing else to do that 'FITS' and I'd love something to do.... Different than this??? Maybe shop classes with 'us' other 'dummies' where we can get along?.. Ok, so a fist fight or two but nobody kills each other! He/she may have shop skill I CAN COPY!
OK, so no making Zip Guns allowed!
They cut those classes where they had funds to spend 10 times and more for Cops and whatever!
I know because I was one of them so called 'dummies'... I probably still (most likely)am but I can take 'some' classes now and get on the Deans list.. Yes, as old as I am I still take classes.. BUT not what the school wants me to take.. What I LIKE! NOT what the so called EXPERTS LIKE!
Only class I ever flunked was Calculus! I think it was because, as I remember, it is about detail of LIMITS! I have None! OK. except fer ' me self!
These days I get along with almost anybody! I may not like them but we somehow get along without hate!
My first bird house (willow) wasn't even good enough for firewood. I'd bet if it was the right size hole for a local bird (not to many cats around) She/He would have loved it!
Well, it did get hung in the yard someplace my dad did not have to look at it. It fell apart from moisture at the glue joints. Butt joints and no mechanical connection. Good thing a bird did not settle, it would have fallen apart around her! <!----><!----><!---->
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Hell. I'd bet most women think that way!
Some parents want their kids to be executives, engineers and many other white collar money makers, not the poor schmuck who "works with his hands". Unfortunately, I think the days of shop class are over, except in smaller towns.
AZMO,
I'm a trained Industrial Arts Teacher by education. I chose to go into industry after graduation for a number of reasons. I do remember a class I took in collage about the history of Industrial Arts/Vocational Training programs.. If I recall correctly..Though there have been classes in the skilled trades for a long time, there was a big expansion of Vocational programs after WW2 in the U.S.A.. The government saw hundreds of thousands of Vets coming home from the war with limited marketable skills. The collages, and universities filled up quickly. (some like Dartmouth had been used for officers training during the war) The government invested in Vocational programs as a means to re-train Vets for jobs that were currently needed. For example, many Vets were getting married, settling down and buying homes. So may Vets were trained to fill the need for Carpenters and Electrical workers. These homes needed furnishings, and many woodworkers were trained for the furniture factories... You get the idea.
Well, as much as I would like to see more woodworking classes return to public schools, the fact is that the there are now fewer woodworking jobs available now in the U.S.. Justifying the $$ for these classes is harder than ever. Funding a Vocational program for a industry that is shrinking fast may not be $$ well spent in the eyes of many. In my area Vocational programs are expanding. But they are focusing on trades that are now more marketable. Health Care/ Opticians, Child Care, Culinary Arts to name a few.
To me, woodworking classes are as important as classes in music, art, and the sports teams, and clubs. But I only get one vote on town meeting day.
I went to woodshop, metalshop, mechanical drafting and archtectual drawing in High School, they were not considered "Classes for Dummies". However that was in the late fifties (1959) and early sixties (60,61 and 63). They were for the guys in the beggining and then the gals were included. The main reason for cutting out "shop" classes was lack of funds. Same reason for cutting art, home ec, theatre, any class not in the language, math,history area etc. To quote one of my favorite movies, "when the cut out football, that will be the day to write about"!
They cut out the shop classes in Alameda California a long time ago and with the budget cuts coming this fall the HS district announced they would cut all HS athletics and you should of heard the crying. Troy
All bow to the sports gods.
so trueTroy
My kids are into this with their kids. They don't sit down to dinner together. They flit from one game to the next with their children. Weeknights, weekends, and even most holidays. All they do is bow to the sports gods.
I managed to avoid the sports, my oldest is in Ballet and has classes 3 days a week and One show a year. My youngest does theater and is a little busier but it's not to crazy. I have friends that between little league and soccer they have no time. I would just go bonkers with their schedule. But each to his or her own Troy
Take a look at http://media.hoover.org/documents/ednext20033_56.pdfEspecially notice the class size on page 59
As for class size----This is my 37 (and last) year of teaching. I have a B.A. and a M.A. plus many additional hours of "teacher training." In addition to teaching elementary school I've authored many articles that have been published in educational journals and other publications, I've spoken at local , state and national conferences, server as a Mentor Teacher, and taught classes in education at a local university.I've taught classes of as few as 17 students and as many as 36. While class size may not affected the "quality" of the education that I provided my students, it did affect greatly the "human" factor of my instruction. With a small class I was able to work closely with individual students and provide a positive environment for my students. When I had more, thirty or more, most of my energy was wasted on controlling students, not meeting their individual needs.The study quoted is only one of many in recent years on class size. Many of them do link class size to "improved" education, including test scores. That's why there have been an outcry for reducing class size. For years administrators and politicians refused to believe that reducing class size would improve education. The numerous studied convinced them that they were wrong.The cited article is based solely on test score results. As someone who has spent the major part of my life in the classroom I can say that these tests do not truly test student knowledge nor the quality of education.Here in California, for example, we are not allowed to "teach to the test" or "prepare students" for it, yet our students are compared with students in other parts of the country and the word where those practices are common place. I must add, however, that my students hold their own on these tests because I actually teach them and they learn. Hopefully my students leave me with far more than good test scored. I hope that they leave with a better understanding of our world and a love for learning. To ma that's far more important than their test scores.
During my grammer years, teachers were allowed to rule with an iron fist, so they could handle large classes (typically 35-45). I'm not sure that way wasn't better. The education I received, at least in the 3 Rs, was probably thrice as good as the education my own children received.
Blewcrowe wrote:
"During my grammer years, teachers were allowed to rule with an iron fist, so they could handle large classes (typically 35-45). I'm not sure that way wasn't better. The education I received, at least in the 3 Rs, was probably thrice as good as the education my own children received."So, how do your kids spell "grammar"?
VTAndy,
Badoom!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
So, you were looking.
The politicians and the courts have made sure that teachers have no power in today's classroom. Ruling a classroom like that would get me kicked out of a job and likely sued by a parent. I'm sure that your parents fully supported the teachers and the educational system. Today that's very rare.
When I was in Junior High, (1970), the students had a sit in, because one of the English, and "Language Arts" (a euphanism for reading and speech), Teachers was too hard and gave too much homework.
He responded by sending out a letter to all the parents, stating that he was there to teach, and if they would back him up, by disciplining their children if needed, and assuring that the homework was assigned, he would teach their children English to the highest of standards.
Of course my parents were in, and there were enough other parents who thought it was important, that he ended up teaching 3, 2-hour classes a day.
The text for ninth grade English was the same as used at the University of Wyoming for freshman composition. We read literature starting with Beowulf, followed by Chaucer, and ending with Hemingway. We learned twenty-five new college level vocabulary words per week, (ablasive as an example), and were required to write a terribly verbose essay or story of at least 1500 words every week, that included at least twenty of our new words for that week, and ten from previous weeks. Every third week we had to read one of our works before the class for a grade. The two years I took from him, were part of the few classes I had in the public school system in which I actually learned something, (the others were analytic geometry, and metal shop). And, they were the last English/Language classes I learned anything in, including the three I had to take in college.
He was one of the three Teachers, that I wrote letters of thanks to after I finished college.
You will note he was one of three, out of probably fifty. And, the others were in many cases more a hindrance than help. I still have the feeling that the basketball coach, (masquerading as a math teacher), who didn't just tell me trigonometry existed should have been flogged. I wasted seven weeks figuring it out on my own before my Dad explained it to me, and gave me a book of tables.
And, I did actually research whether Teachers are underpaid; as public sector employees go, they aren't. In the Public Sector, they make more per hour, than any other professional group requiring a college education, except for Engineers (who are typically paid twenty per cent less than Engineers do in the private sector). That is more per hour than Librarians, Biologists, Epidemiologists, Social Workers, Criminologists, etc.
To come to this conclusion, I:
Used the Bureau of Labor statistics for California, Arizona, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Idaho, and Utah to determine the mean, median, 30 percentile, and 70 percentile incomes for Teachers;
State, County and City job class descriptions, and pay ranges as published on their websites;
And, calculated the hours Teachers worked per year, as ten hours per day multiplied by the number of days Teachers are required to work.
Your price per hour comparison doesn't include the time teachers spend setting up their classrooms before school starts or putting it all away at the end of the year so that summer school teachers can use the rooms.Instead on measuring teacher pay per hour why not measure it per client contact hour. That's a much more accurate way to measure their "productivity." If you measure it that way teachers are the most under payed of any profession. Your experience with the coach teaching math is similar to the one I had in geometry. Problems like that aren't caused by the school. They, in fact, are because of public and parent pressure that puts sports performance ahead of academics. If we turned that around like we should many of those coaches wouldn't be able to remain in the classroom. Unfortunately in today's world that kind of situation is even worse than it was in 1970. Many of the parents of elementary school students feel that sports are far more important than their school work. It gets worse in middle school and high school.In your english teacher story you failed to state how many parents didn't buy into" his plan and "back him up." If some didn't back him even back in 1970, you can't imagine how few would do so today.
And many of them don't even know what "thrice" is!
LMAO.
Yeah, I got a big put-down for typoing "grammer" for "grammar" in that thread. Some people get their rocks off pointing out the mistakes of others. Brain fart, and for that misstep I apologize. Nonetheless, I do a fair amount of professional writing, and I should not have gotten that word wrong.
But you're right. Use the word "thrice" and you'll get some pretty weird looks. <g>
One set of grandkids has:
Boy Scouts
Girls Scouts
Gymnastics
Ballet
Karate
Baseball
T-Ball
Soccer
and Basketball
You think they ever sit down to dinner together? Don't need a pencil to do that math.
Very funny, I think you hit it on the head.Troy
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