has anyone used these saws. i saw them reviewed in an old issue of FWW and the author seemed to love them. Would anybody recommend these over LN dovetail saw? They are a little less expensive and are supposed to be modeled after the kenyon saws found in the Benjamin Seaton 18TH Century tool chest.
Brice
Replies
I have three of them, but not the Kenyan models. Lataxe has some and there are others here who also have some. The fact that I have two more on order should speak for itself, especially because I also have quite a pile of well cleaned and sharpened vintage Disston, Atkins, and Harvey Peace.
The L-N saws are very good indeed. I had a matched pair of L-N dovetail saws, in crosscut and rip. Sold them because I prefer the Wenzloffs.
Joe
I have the dovetail saw. It's beautifully made, and I've nothing but praise for it. I can't compare it to the LN because I've never used one of those, apart from a swipe or two at a wood show. If you order direct from Wenzloff you can have the saw made exactly to your specifications, a big help if your hand doesn't fit the usual profile. You might have to wait awhile though.
Jim
Brice,
Ditto Joe & Jim.
I'm currently giving the Wenzloff tenon saws a workout on a lot of M&Ts is oak. Handwork is still relatively new to me but I can tell you that the Wenzloff saw qualities mean I can concentrate on getting the technique right without having to battle with a saw that wanders, skips, cuts a raggy kerf, makes my hand ache, etc..
As objects, the saws are handsome (made of very good materials and having good ergonomics - hand-fit, weight and balance). Functionaly they are of the "disappearing tool" kind - after you've learnt to saw, they just do their job and you are only aware of the cutting actions not the saw's behaviour, if you know what I mean. Like using a good car or racing bicycle.
I only had a modern Stanley tenon saw to compare with (a traditional resharpenable type, not a hardpoint type). The Stanley is poor in that it wants to cut offline all the time and isn't too sharp. Also the handle is slightly too large and has edges that make their presence felt after a cut or two. The teeth seem to be filed in some sort of all-purpose bevel fashion, so it neither rips nor crosscuts very well.
I suppose the Stanley could be fettled to some degree but I confess to being a lazy chap who cannot get up the gumption to learn saw re-setting and sharpening. And I suspect (don't know) that the materials of the Stanley have their limitations.
The LN, Adria and Grammercy saws all get good user reports but I haven't used any of them myself. I would like another Wenzloff or two - a small crosscut to go with the DT (which has rip teeth) and a large 5tpi for a bit of plank sawing; but I fear the wait is long.
Lataxe
Lataxe:I restored a once very rusty turn-of-the-century Disston # 4 and had it properly sharpened by someone who knew what he was doing. The sharpening and setting made a genuinely dramatic difference. The saw is not a Wenz, but it hangs within reach and gets lots of use.Have also restored about half a dozen panel saws and hand saws of the same vintage or older. Lots of fun, actually.I have all the tools to sharpen saws, but just have not taken the time to learn how. Besides, I'd hate to learn on good saws, if you follow me. So I send mine either to Steve Cooke who does very good work, or increasingly to Daryl Weir who is a very highly skilled perfectionist. Joe
Joe,
I ask the olde woodworkers I come across from time to time if they know how to sharpen a saw. So far not one ever has and they all sent theirs out to a specialist. Sadly such specialists seem rare here in Blighty these days. I presume this is because hard-point saws have been in the ascendancy for so long now.
Mind, I probably don't use those Wenzloffs nearly enough so that they'll ever need sharpening. I do use them regularly and keep expecting the performance to worsen a bit, as surely the metal of a saw blade is relatively soft, so that cutting all those teak and iroko joints should blunt such a saw quickly....? But no sign of a lesser cutting ability yet.
It would be interesting to know how much work such traditional saws can be expected to do in various types of wood. This must be quite difficult to estimate but I wonder if someone who handsaws a lot - a professional perhaps - can put some kind of figure on the 'tween-sharpening periods to be expected?
Lataxe
Very good question indeed.Joe
For all the relative softness of a hand saw, they do seem to last a long time.
The reality is that the softness compared to a plane iron or chisel is precisely why the degradation is so slow--unless one hits knots (or knotheads) much in their work. The slow decline in the sharpness of a hand saw doesn't allow for a "now it's sharp, now it's not" evaluation like the type of failure a chisel or plane blade does.
In general, I think once a year for a hobbyist that uses their saws very frequently and consistently. The odd use of a saw will likely take many, many years before one needs to sharpen.
All that needs to be understood in the context of the abrasiveness and or relative hardness of the wood usually used. I used a lot of Bubinga at one point. Joinery saws required a nice tickle once a year. Saws for breaking planks down required it more frequently (the larger gap between teeth means more bashing into the wood). Using the joinery saw I used for thin drawer sides in Pine or Poplar, I am uncertain I ever sharpened it more than once. That means it probably lasted 8-10 years because I owned this saw for a good 20 years.
As long as there isn't abuse or very hard abrasive woods being sawn, the sharpness fades until one day you will think, Maybe I should sharpen this saw.
Take care, Mike
"I wonder if someone who handsaws a lot - a professional perhaps - can put some kind of figure on the 'tween-sharpening periods to be expected?"I can tell you my experience:First, know that I know how to sharpen saws and I like sharp saws. So I may be more inclined to sharpen more often.I sharpen my x-cut saws, especially the back saw, pretty much monthly. These saws see a lot of work (used on every project, unlike say, my large tenon). I'm also sensitive to dull x-cut teeth.The other saws get sharpened less often. I can certainly build many projects without sharpening. So I'd say I sharpen everything I've got a couple times a year. I think I sharpen saws less often than chisels or plane irons. They get sharpened at least before and sometimes during a project. For me, that can be weekly. I guess I think saws don't see as much use or wear as chisels and plane irons do. This may have something to do with their different cutting geometries or just that that see alot less use. Its a rare day that I have the same saw in my hand all day long. This doesn't happen often with planes either, but it does happen. I spent a good 2 days with my bead planes and match planes.Adam
I sincerely hope you sharpen saws less often than one normally sharpens plane irons and chisels- but I have read of stranger happenings.
In normal circumstances the amount of sharpening of both saws and plane irons and chisels is directly related to the amount of hand work being done, and the type of wood being worked.If you worked some hardwoods you could be sharpening before during and after the project, but especially during-in other words whenever necessary.
Just in passing, I guess.....Philip Marcou
I've been lobbying Mike for months to send me some for free so that I can post a review. He keeps telling me to take a hike.
Charles,
If this Wenzloff idiot sent you free saws for review, even if they got panned, wouldn't this take away any imputus for needling Derek or other recipients of gratis tools?
Wouldn't you in effect become part of the payola posse? (My apologies to those whom this term has actually been applied to...)
Take care, Mike
All, great feedback! I have a simple little crown tools DT saw that is ok. It's not very sharp but cuts ok and I can keep it on track but it requires more effort than I feel like it should. Thanks. Good to know there are happy users.
Just in case you didn't know, the guy you replied to in this thread, mwenz, is Mike Wenzloff. If you have any questions, you can ask him directly. Forgive my ignorance if you already know this. He makes great saws.
Wait, Wait!!!I say nice things in public, too. Can I join the Posse?Joe
There's a little bit o' larcency in all of us.
When shall I expect the shipment?
Hi Brice
This may (or not) be useful.
I have two nearly identical saws, the LN dovetail saw (which you ask about) and the Independence Tools (IT) dovetail saw, upon which the LN is based. The LN has the original sharpening, and the IT was bought brand new (on eBay) and immediately sent to Mike Wenzloff for sharpening. It is about as close to a Wenzloff dovetail saw as I can get.
I have made a comparison of the two saws. The article is here:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and%20LieNielsen%20saws.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Brice, I have a set of Paragon saws. inexpensive, would probably cut better if I re-sharpen and set them and the handles hurt and are too small. The 4 old Disston back saws that I cleaned, jointed, sharpened and set are comfortable, cut well but are too large for some work, but they are keepers.
I now normally use a Wenzloff dovetail saw and a cross cut Halfback and both feel like they were made for my hand but more important they cut true with ease so that (as Lataxe says) you need only be concerned with your technique of stroke and setting on your cut line. I too have two more on order, a large tennon and a round nose #9 and I expect an Email "annnny day now". I have used friends other modern saws, they have used my DT and the usual comment is " this cuts like butter " . All the best, Paddy
Hi Brice,
I have the dovetail and large tenon saw made by Wenzloff and Sons based on the Seaton tool chest models...great saws, don't think you'll find better
Be prepared to wait however. I ordered a half back saw back in June and still haven't heard back (or even half heard back)
Neil
are you ordering direct from wenzloff, from lee valley, thebestthings.com, etc.? I hear that if you buy direct from wenzloff that you can "customize your saw" but I don't know what that entails. I am assuming that if you buy from retailers like Lee Valley or thebestthings.com that you are getting a more "stock" saw/setup vs. a custom saw purchased direct which may explain the delay. Can anybody weigh in on this? Mike W.???
This website will give you a start on what you want to know. http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/
Even Lee Valley sometimes has a backlog on some saws. Their (Canadian) stores usually carry the dovetail saw and small tenon saw, with 3 others on mail order. The saws are handmade in a small shop, so a backlog is inevitable. The store-sold models are to a standard design.
Jim
Unless something has changed in the last week or so, Mike Wenzloff has put a moratorium on new custom orders so he can catchup with the overwhelming volume from last year. Joe
Gee.. All I have is my new Veritas! Which works great!
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