Replies

1. 
   BG | Jan 09, 2003 07:34pm | #1

   Doc,

   Where can I buy fingers with 25 years experience? lol....thanks for the info

2. 
   Crunk | Jan 09, 2003 09:38pm | #2

   Tom Wisshack (sp?) wrote an article in Woodwork a year or so ago about wax-only finishes.  It's a good read.

3. 
   Dale | Jan 10, 2003 01:50am | #3

   I think we tried this on my son's Pine Wood Derby car, that sucker shined.  It reminded me of boot camp!  I think you are waxing the wax at that point.  Thanks for the good information, will try it again at a later date.......Dale

4. 
   Gretchen | Jan 10, 2003 04:02pm | #4

   It is a beautiful finish. But for a surface that will have anything put on it it is not very protective.  Water rings are very common.

   Gretchen
1. 
   Crunk | Jan 10, 2003 05:20pm | #5

   Which is exactly what somebody deserves when they set a glass down on a fine piece of furniture without using a coaster...

   A ring can be a wonderful reminder to a guest how wretchedly uncivilized they've behaved in your home, or how unthoughtful the host(ess) was in not providing coasters.

   But, it's a very repairable blemish I think you'll agree.

   Edited 1/10/2003 9:22:16 AM ET by BossCrunk

1. 
   Seth_Frankel | Jan 10, 2003 05:42pm | #6

   ..or that children exist in the world. My, they're uncivilized!"Nothing is a

   mistake. There is no win

   and there is no fail . . . there is only

   make."

   John Cage

1. 
   Crunk | Jan 10, 2003 05:50pm | #7

   By definition they are.  A complete blank slate that their parents must teach to become refined adolescents and ultimately civilized adults.  In the meantime, the repairability of wax is an advantage.

   For the rest of humanity there is always polyurethane.

   Or maybe what we should do as fine woodworkers, who have children, is to finish all our best pieces with polyurethane varnish,  then when they are old enough to know better completely strip and re-finish our furniture with something less Neanderthal.

   Yes, I think that's a solution.

   Edited 1/10/2003 10:27:54 AM ET by BossCrunk

1. 
   Crunk | Jan 10, 2003 06:22pm | #8

   And why are we so scared of water on wood anyway?  Have we not all wet a project to raise the grain before sanding?  And then wet it again and sanded again to get an extra nice finish?  That process alone introduces more water to the bare surface of a project than it would receive in ten lifetimes of use, post-finishing.  Yet we freak about sweating high-ball glasses and dog slobber.  Use a finish that you can repair, not one that purports to be bullet proof, because none really are.  And the ones that purport to be bullet proof are usually the ugliest, most difficult to repair,  and lend the most contrived, manufactured look to your work. 

   Have you ever used a water-based finish on a piece before?  Have you ever painted a piece with milk paint, or another water-based paint?  Think about it.

   Edited 1/10/2003 10:38:11 AM ET by BossCrunk

2. 
   jgaiennie | Jan 10, 2003 08:19pm | #9

   Boss,

   If you can keep people from putting glasses on your surfaces and causing water rings, you're a much better controller than I.  If you can train society, including children and dumies to respect your furniture, you're a better teacher than I. 

   Wet glasses should be anticipated on tables - and expected.  That's not to suggest that they belong there, but just that they do happen.  Ever picked up a really wet glass from a table, wiped up the water, and found there was absolutely no damage what so ever?  Boy what a relief!  What a waterproof finish!  Wax won't do this.  Varnish will - Everytime.  It's my opinion, that as woodworkers, we are responsible for making sure the finish suits the use.  Table tops need water proof finishes.  I believe it's an error to wax only a table top, and then be surprised or angered when there's a ring.  Surely the person who put the glass down was not considerate of your table.  But rather than it being someone who should be repremanded, it's not a proper finish for the surface.  I love a wax only finish.  For a cypress armoire I just finished, wax only was my choice.  For a table, or any surface where a glass may be set, I would not chose wax unless I was prepared to work on the finish to repair stains.

   jdg

1. 
   Crunk | Jan 10, 2003 09:37pm | #10

   The problem is that you assume that a wax-only finish will blemish every time moisture is introduced to it.  This is incorrect.  A cocktail glass left overnight?  Maybe.  A water glass during dinner?  Never in my experience.  

   What if my dining table has a solid Cocobolo surface waxed with a high Carnauba content wax?  Are you still sure?  What if I've specially prepared a wax that contains a small, but key amount of shellac wax?  The ingredients and relative content of the different waxes make a big difference in the performance.  Most of the advice and lore about the performance of wax that's passed along these days is by people who have not really seriously looked at wax as a standalone finish, or experimented with waxes.  Messrs. Jewitt, Flexner, Minnick, et al. have made the pronouncement that wax is not 'suitable' for use on tables.  Phooey. 

   As for the children, I suppose we've been lucky. 

1. 
   jgaiennie | Jan 11, 2003 07:38pm | #13

   ok

2. 
   Crunk | Jan 12, 2003 12:37am | #14

   That's a good boy.

2. 
   Crunk | Jan 10, 2003 10:21pm | #11

   And JDG I don't want to give the impression that I don't use varnish finishes.  I do.  I try not to limit myself in any way.  However, what I find sometimes less than pleasing about film forming finishes is that they get fine, white-ish scratches in them over time.  In my experience, the harder the varnish the more pronounced the scratching.  And certainly the hard varnishes are difficult to repair. 

   If you look at a well-used varnished tabletop with a raking light you will see a surface almost completely covered with fine scratches.  I'll grant you that the scratches are in the finish and not the wood, but the fix usually is to strip the piece and refinish.

   If you've used an oil/wax finish or a wax-only finish then the fix is easy even if the wood itself is slightly dinged.   I think it comes down to a matter of taste.

   Water does not hurt wood (in the context and in the amount we're talking about here).  We use water all the time on wood.  See my post above.  It tickles me to no end to read books and articles from proclaimed 'experts' who go into great detail to describe raising grain with water, the benefits of new water-based finishes, applying an authentic milk paint finish, etc. and then in later chapters expound on protecting a piece from, you guessed it, water.  I've never been quite able to reconcile this, but I'm sure there must be some logic to it however convoluted.

   If somebody can describe to me a circumstance whereby more water could be introduced to a piece, short of hosing it down, than when painting it with milk paint or when raising the grain with wet shop cloths I would appreciate it.  And remember that this is to a RAW WOOD SURFACE.

   I'm much less concerned about "protecting" a piece from water than I am achieving a pleasing look (at least to my taste).  Ultimately every piece will need a bit of freshening up unless it's an 18th century antique.  I'd rather spruce up a wax finish or an oil finish any day than tackle a varnish job that's seen better days.

   FWIW, I really haven't had to train any of the guests we've entertained in our home over the years.  I have to say that the vast majority of them have achieved the level of social competence necessary to understand what cocktail napkins and coasters are for.  And in the rare instance that some heathen has slipped through the cracks, we don't leave their mess sitting over the weekend.

   Edited 1/11/2003 4:36:34 PM ET by BossCrunk

   Edited 1/12/2003 9:22:56 AM ET by BossCrunk

5. 
   eximreb | Jan 11, 2003 04:54am | #12

   That is a spit shine that a lot of military people use on thier Dress shoes.A lot of men would remember that. But it will, in time degrade.

    Good luck