Synopsis:
– Bought set of waterstones and gave them a try
– Took longer than expected to flatten and sharpen an iron
– Made horrific wet sludgy mess on my workbench
– Must avoid said mess in future, but still have stones conveniently available for touching up edges.
– How is this mess avoidance/convenience conflict resolved?
The Background:
Since I was at the Woodcraft annual 10% off sale plus 5% more for getting there early, anyway…
..I’ve always wanted to try waterstones, so I broke down and bought a set of Nortons – 200/1000, 4000/8000, flattening stone, nagura stone.
Home with my treasure I filled a medium Rubbermaid box with water, let the stones soak for half an hour, and…
set to flattening and polishing a new plane iron back, and to sharpen it’s bevel.
It took about twice as long as the scary sharp method I normally use, but I think that a lot of that is due to inexperience.
It doesn’t put as nice a polish on the back and edges as my scary sharp method does, but perhaps I need a 10,000 stone????
The actual question:
So here’s my question to all you real men and women who use waterstones. What do you do to contain the wet, sludgy mess that creeps all about as you get engrossed in the sharpening process?
Obviously, setting the stone on a piece of plastic on the workbench is not the answer. I don’t have room to build a dedicated wet sink sharpening station. There has to be a relatively simple solution to this problem, or folks wouldn’t use waterstones.
Ideas?
Mike D
Replies
Mike,
I use a DMT 600x/1200x diamond stone and a Norton 4000x/8000x water stone for sharpening. I have never used a nagura stone and it is my understanding that they are for use with slower-cutting Japanese stones and not necessary for rapid-cutting Nortons. The 600x diamond stone flattens the Norton stone (both sides). It works much slower than Norton's 220x grooved flattening stone, which I assume you have.
Before use, I soak the stones in a plastic container for about 10 minutes. When dry, if you pour some water on the stone, you can watch it absorb it in seconds. It's quite fascinating, I find. The stone is ready for use when it will not absorb any more water and the surface stays wet.
The stones should be pretty darn flat right out of the box, if not dead flat. To flatten them, rub them together in a circular or figure-8 pattern, rotating them end for end every once in a while to negate any uneven pressure you may be applying which would result in a tapered stone. The time it takes to flatten a stone depends on how often you do so. Waterstones cut faster than oilstones and also require more frequent flattening. Some flatten after every couple strokes sharpening. I flatten after honing every tool.
Without knowing how flat the iron was to start with, I can't comment on the length of time required to lap it flat. To lap an iron, only the first half inch or so is important. On an average unlapped 1" chisel, this may take as long as 10 minutes on a 220 grit stone. This doesn't mean much though, as every manufacture machines to different tolerances. I own two Crown skew chisels. On one, I was able to lap the critical spots on the back (edges and first 1/2" of tip) in less than 8 strokes on my 4000x stone - exceptional. On the other skew, it took me more than five minutes on my 600x diamond stone. I finish up flattening with my 8000x stone and it provides a very nice finish. Perhaps you aren't spending enough time on the 8000x stone? By the way 0.5 micron micro-abrasive = about 9000x.
Right now, I dunk my stones in a plastic container and cover them with a lid for storage. The blue plastic container that the stone comes with is nice, but isn't water tight nor does it hold enough water to hydrate a dry stone. You can put the stone on the blue lid with rubber feet on the bottom to sharpen. Use a spray bottle or water bottle to clear away swarf. Right now, I just plop my stones onto the plywood top of my workbench. On my new bench, I will build a plywood tray for sharpening on. Over time, it may turn grey with swarf, but who cares?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Ah! A plywood tray is a good idea.
Thanks
Shellac or poly the plywood tray. Wipes up clean with a paper towel.
Did both. Finished it in shellac, showed it to SWMBO who said "That's pretty, but haven't you told me that shellac does not hold up well to standing water?".
Well, yes, but......"Well, it looks nice - there's no sense in ruining it because you're in a hurry!"
25 minutes later it had a nice coat of poly on it. And yes, it DOES now wipe up nicely with just a paper towel. :)
Mike D
Hi Chris,I assumed that they were flat out of the box. Flattening is something that I'll have to discipline myself to do.The iron was a new Lee Valley pocket plane blade in A2. I forgot that it was A2, which is typically tougher than O1, and should have taken more time to flatten. I like your idea of making a plywood tray - I was trying to use the plastic box since it has little rubber feet, but found that the feet are too soft and thus make an unstable platform for sharpening. And the water just crept over the edge of my piece of plastic and thoroughly wetted the benchtop. I really liked how the edge cut, so perhaps the apparent lack of a "see your face in it" polish on the back isn't that important.Thanks for the reply.
Mike D
Mike
If you want the mirror finish.. use diamond paste on a flat surface to finish after the stones. You will be pleased
Also, if you're going to Autozone (or similar auto part places for Sc paper) take a look in the paint section for a DuPont product called "PerFect-it III". This is a liquid paint/rubbing out compound that is cheap (quart for about $12.00--I bought mine about 4 or 5 years ago and still more than 2/3 full), and will give a mirror polish quicker than you can say mirror polish.
Additionally, you can find 3M Sc paper at any Walmart in the auto parts section. I've bought up to 2500 grit at Walmart.
T.Z.
Funny thing I've looked at that and wondered?? I currently have a box of polishing compounds for buffing out paint that go up to 6000 grit. The stuff does a great job on any surface and finish. I think my junk is from 3M as I recall. Lasts forever. I got the stuff at a local paint supplier when I was restoring my MGTD.
Lots of good stuff out there.
thanks
dan
Works best to draw to tool towards you, and does not work on leather (don't ask how I know that!).
I've played with practically every sharpening "solution" out there and I always end up returning to my medium india, #### and hard arkansas.
T.Z.
Well, here's what I've come up with so far.
Based on the many suggestions, I built a small tray to contain the mess. It's anti-skidded on the bottom with shelf no-skiddum, ditto under the stone being worked. There's enough for both combination stones, the flattener stone, the nagura stone, and my spritz bottle.
The spritz bottle went the fartherest in reducing the scope of the mess.
Finally, I've utilized a piece of scrap mdf sprinkled with yellow cake powder to act as the final polishing "stone". Works like a charm.Here's two pictures of the resulting shavings from a piece of very cranky curly maple. The shavings are made with two different block planes, one, my new LV pocket plane sharpened at a total angle of about 37 degrees and the other, my old much fettled Stanley low angle block plane sharpened at a total angle of about 47 degrees.I'm still making a big mess, but contained in the tray, and I think that, with practice, this waterstone business requires less water than my first, shall we say enthusiastic use might suggest.Edited 7/31/2008 9:17 pm ET by Mike_D
Edited 7/31/2008 9:18 pm ET by Mike_D
Mike. I predict that 12 months from now you will throw two red auto zone shop rags on a plastic laminated scrap cut off, wet down your fine stone from a well rinsed coffee cup, touch up your iron, mop up the little water, rinse and wring out the red rags, hang them on a nail, rinse off your stone, dry and refit your iron and finish your cut. Send me an Email, Paddy- enjoy
Works best to draw to tool towards you, and does not work on leather (don't ask how I know that!).
I've played with practically every sharpening "solution" out there and I always end up returning to my medium india, #### and hard arkansas.
T.Z.
Not sure this is a reply to my post to use diamond paste? For me- I can not get the edge working a stone only that I can get finishing with diamond paste embedded in a flat piece of wood or an old flat oil stone(as Hack uses).
I like working my way to a final edge using the various grades of paper and/or waterstones.
In the last 6 months I have been using the DMT diamond plates and polishing with an 8000 waterstone and a minute with the paste surface and back to work.
I love the paste for use with carving tools. I can make any shaped wooden tool to apply the paste and rub the carving tool on it to remove a burr and fine tune the secondary bevel.
Just one more technique - certainly not the final word.
osl
Definitely only another technique! I have never had the results others have had using diamond paste!
In my case, I suppose it is a pre-conceived notion that the method I first learned to use (oilstones) is (at leat for me) the best method, primarily because of familiarity. Maybe the lesson for all that experiment with sharpening methods is to make sure you spend sufficient time on the new method to determine how appropriate it is for your manner of working.
T.Z.
Mike,
A2 is considerably harder than O1 and takes much longer to sharpen. However, honing a microbevel doesn't take much longer with A2.
The lapped backs of the planes look dull gray, right? Place the blade vertically on a newspaper and look down it at a very shallow angle, almost as if you are checking it for straightness. At the right angle, that dull gray surface looks like a perfect mirror and you can read the text (backwards) as clearly as normal. Quite fascinating, I find. Does anybody have an explanation for this?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I use an old plywood table/bench I have in my garage. I use the 1000/4000/8000 stones just like yours and get a mirror finish on my plane blades.
This is what I use to corral the water.
View Image
What also helps is that the Japanese waterstones I have don't require soaking. All they need is some spritzing of water to get the top surface wet.
Mike
I'm about to pull the trigger on a set of Norton's just like yours. They're what I've used at the school I've attended the last two years, and the results are very satisfactory. I've been using sandpaper on glass--Mike Dunbar style-- and I'm tired of replacing the finer paper when the corners of the blades catch and dig in, plus they wear out too quickly. Good method otherwise. With a little experience, you will get as good or maybe better results with the Nortons. To me, it's a little less hassle than the sandpaper. Both are great methods for honing. Tom
I tend to tear the finer sheets as well, although, now that I try to only bear down on the pull stroke I seem to have that problem much less.Speaking of that, can you put pressure on the waterstone in both directions or just on the pull stroke. To be safe, I've limited myself to the pull stroke for the time being.
I was taught to use the pull stroke for the bevel on the waterstones, and I find, like you, that it works best on the paper as well. Mike Dunbar teaches a side to side polishing of bevel, but on the finer paper with a narrow chisel that is not a good method for me. I also understand that Dunbar no longer recommends glass and uses aluminum plates only now. I usually tear the finer paper in polishing the back of the chisel or plane iron. Lonnie Bird is who taught me to use the waterstones, and he briefly covers sharpening on his dovetail DVD and goes into much more depth on his handplane DVD. Both are excellent sources of good information. He has a great technique for dealing with the corners of a smooth plane iron--no camber at all in the iron, but he rounds over the corners with a couple of strokes on a course stone. For me, waterstones are an easier method. Sharpening has as many methods as a dog has fleas. Most of them are good--it pretty much becomes 'pick a team and play'. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Mike,
Another option would be to use a cookie or baking pan, the kind where the sides are only a half inch or so high and put a rubber or plastic drawer liner that is permeabl in the bottom of it to prevent slippage...should contain the water and sludge and is easy to clean and store.
Neil
Mike,
Here is a possible solution:
Lee Valley Stone Pond.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=33027&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1
I have a low profile plastic tray which I use. It is not the greatest but it works.
Don
Here's another tray option from Peach Tree:http://www.ptreeusa.com/norton_waterstone.htmTom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Aha!
That reminds me that I have a Norton Sharpening DVD around here somewhere - gotta find that - don't remember why I have it, just that - somewhere ..... I do.
Mike
That's what I have had for years. I would never pay what they're asking for that plastic tub, but it works alright. I inherited mine from dad.
Mike I use an old plastic tray from a fast food place.
Roll the trash bin over to your workbench. Scrape the waterstones into the bin with the crook of your arm.
Voila' Mess cleaned up.
I hate those ba$tards.
Now Boss... trash canning the stones would be a terrible waste as I see it. I sold mine for 1/2 price after collecting dust for years and was glad to take the loss just to avoid trash canning them in contempt. I found no love in my heart for them either.. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Where did you fine the very fine grits of wet dry paper for the scary sharp system?
AutoZone and just about every other car parts retailer.
Hi 130Mike,
I got mine from http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com. They sold a set titled "3M Micro Abrasive Film for Scary Sharpening" with two of everything in it as a starter set. Also included are the instructions for setting up and using same. It's an easy way to get started, and you are sure that you have the right stuff to be successful.They point out that Silicon Carbide medium included is a faster cutting medium than the aluminum oxide that is more readily available.The grits that the kit provides are:
40um - ~= to 400 grit silicon carbide wet/dry
15um - ~= to 1200 grade waterstone
4um - ~= to 5,000 grade waterstone
1um - ~= to 8,000 grade waterstone
.3um - ~= to 12,000 grade waterstone (leaves a highly polished surface)Once you know that this is for you, you can order more from TWW or you can also buy equivalent sheets at any auto-body paint supply house.Mike D
Thank you
I find it worthwhile to have a separate sharpening bench in one corner of my shop. I used a standard 4' length of kitchen laminate countertop. I also keep a 5 gal plastic bucket near the bench with a scotchbrite sponge in it to dunk my stones or my blades in their jigs between waterstone grits to rinse them off. The stones themselves I keep above the bench in tuperware boxes. I also use a cookie sheet with a cabinet liner for grip. In addition, I have a bench-hook type stone holder wide enoiugh for two stones and with stops to match each of the stones (one is generally a medium diamond sdtone and the other is the 800 grit water stone). I have found that I get an excellent edge using the slow speed grinder for shaping, medium diamond (for smoothing from the grinder), then 800, 1200 and 4000. I have an 8000 grit stone but almost never use it. I generally use a leather hone (I have three--two with diamond pastes on them and one plain) for a quick buff. I find that I can go from a nicked chisel blade to a mirror finish in about 5 minutes or so. The advantage of having a separate bench is that you can always go quickly to it, then return to your workbench, thus making the proccess more likely to happen.
The separate honing area is a great idea if you have the room. It's one of the items on my list for my 'permanent someday shop'. I've found that the waterstones can be used directly on top of the laminate tops--the wet surface of the stone forms a vacuum that keeps it in place as you move the tool across the surface of the stone. Of course, then you have to wipe the counter top dry.... :) Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Mike,
I have my water stones set up on separate table with a large plastic tray that I believe was originally a boot mat or something to put under a dehumidifier. I've been using them for years and,yes, they are slower than scary sharp, but that's what i'm used to now. I'm constantly flattening them and there's always a mess. I keep a drawer of rags nearby to wipe the blade with. I'm not sure why I don't go back to scary sharp, but habits die hard.
By the way, my final step is putting some diamond paste on a nice flat block of hardwood. (I use this stuff called "Ma's" which is just a polishing compound I got at the hardware store).
Hi Mike
Here is the waterstone board I built some years ago. I still use it, although I am on the point of redesigning it slightly.
View Image
The left side is a clamped length of 220 grit drywall screen. This is used to flatten waterstones. It is clamped only at one end so you can lift the other side and swab away any mess.
View Image
The top is a waterproof laminate, and wide enough to house 3 waterstones alongside one another.
When I built this I was using Kings. Now I am using Shaptons and they are flattened on a diamond stone, so the drywall screen is no longer needed. The top does get wet, but it is large enough to contain any water. This dries/evalorates quickly, so never overflows.
I keep in on a separate bench top dedicated to sharpening. It is held on with a simple bench hook.
Regards fom Perth
Derek
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