I’m getting ready to invest in some waterstones.
Should I be getting hung up on “Japanese” or “Norton” brand names or will a standard water stone coming from the same woodworking supplier get the job done?
Is purchasing the brand name cost effective in your experience?
Thank you for your replies.
Replies
Just like every other tool or material there are different levels of quality available. While part of what you are paying for with brand names is the assurance of quality associated with the name, I think you are also getting a better product as well in many cases. You might find no name stones that are great, but if they were so great, why didn't someone want to put their name on them and build a brand?
Manmade (as opposed to quarried stones) are grit and binder. You want the grit to be high quality and uniform, and you want the binder to be friable at a good rate. Quarried stones vary with the quality of the natural rock in a given location.
You rarely get something for nothing.
I find the Norton stones to be excellent. I also like the King stones and others from Japan available from Woodcraft and Japan Woodworker among other places.
I broke down and picked up a set of Norton stones 220/1000/4000/8000. I just finished honing a new set of Narvex chisels. I had to start with the 220, glad I bought it, because the cutting edges were pretty flat. Anyway, I was able to shave the hair off my arm when finished. I am happy with the purchase.
King and norton are both excellent. I have used King in 800, 1200 and 8000 grit for a dozen years. I used a 220 grit Norton for the first time today with nice results.
I actually prefer a soft stone. They cut fast but hollow out fast. I flatten them every five minutes or so of sharpening. Squiggly them lightly all over with a pencil then flatten on a piece of wet dry paper laid on a piece of glass. 220 grit paper for everything except the 8000 grit stone, which gets 600 grit paper. As soon as the pencil marks are gone, you are good to go.
Chris
Ron,
I have used the Japanese waterstones but currently use the Nortons. I find that they cut quicker - I can feel and hear them cut. I also get more "feedback" from the stones. By that I mean that I can see where the metal is contacting the stone - if only the corner is being sharpened or if the edge is flat.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
If you aren't hearing the whisper-soft voices of the Japanese waterstones, that may be an indicator that your Chi is out of balance. You'll need to spend another year at the monastery contemplating the sound of butterfly wings. ;-)
I love that. The whole wood shop (studio?) as a contemplative temple just ain't my cuppa.
Slap some of Ray Pine's Marvel's Mystery Oil on a non-descript slightly dished old oilstone comes closer to it for me. I have to admit being a pinky-extender where the oil comes in. I still shell out the bucks for the Norton stuff. My only defense is that I do work up the kitchen knives (or try to) from time to time on the same stones I use for my woodworking tools. I've always wondered if the Marvel's might help my arrhythmia though.
Edited 9/10/2008 2:17 pm ET by BossCrunk
Charles,
"Slap some of Ray Pine's Marvel's Mystery Oil on a non-descript slightly dished old oilstone comes closer to it for me. "
Once again, you are an elitist. There is no need for all of this expensive frivolity that you are advocating. Sharpening can be done adequately with a cinder block and a piece of sidewalk or driveway that has been dug up.
As far as the oil goes, I find that used oil from McDonald's works best for me. A mere quart will last me a long time, more than a week, and it makes my shop smell good.
There is absolutely no need to spend $5 or $10 on an old dished oilstone, when you can get a brand new cinderblock for less than two bucks, and a piece of concrete for nothing.
Once you have the cinder block, you can also charge others to use your cinder block to flatten their oilstones. So as you can see, there is still big money to be made in woodworking, with a relatively small outlay for tools.
I know that I will be criticized for advocating the use of new cinder blocks when old ones are more than adequate, but once in a while I just feel like splurging.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Grizzly has some really good prices on Japanese water stones. Is this a real Japanese stone or a "you get what you pay for deal"?
Does anybody have any expererince with these stones?
Hi Mel
You forget that the cost is not really in the cinder block. The real cost is in the waterstone that is required to flatten the cinder block before it can be used. :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I never knew how tthey got cinder blocks so flat. Thanks for explaining that to me.
Knowing that Norton 8000 grit stones do not get things as shiny as 8000 King stones, which do not get things as shiny as 8000 grit Norton stones, I am fairly sure that it is the Nortons that are used to flatten cinder blocks.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You guys have rendered my entire sharpening approach a-cinder, so to speak. ;-)
Ralph,
Great response!
Great attitude!Thank you for that.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Cinderblocks are so yesterday. Nowadays they have new concrete blocks, called "solite" blocks. They apparently have developed a process that incorporates more air into the concrete mixture that is poured into the forms. They are not as heavy to tote around in your tool kit, as the old fashioned cinderblocks. They still have all the good features: they come already flat on two faces. And the ends of some of them have radiussed inside corners so that you can sharpen your gouges and molding planes. The solites might soak up more water when you first use them. (I couldn't help but notice you use Mc Donald's oil. But consider: these blocks are made from water-based concrete, so using oil on them, is just like putting oil varnish over water based poly. It will eventually peel right off!) But, the average kiddy pool holds enough water to suffice, or you can use a drywall compound bucket, in a pinch. I like that they come in various thicknesses. I use a 4" block on my bench, and have a 12" one in my worksite toolbag, so I can sharpen right on the floor if need be, without too much backstrain. The 6" and 8" blocks are just right for use on sawhorses, depending on their height.
Shop hint: If you want your shop to smell good, but don't want to use that onion-ring oil on your water-block, put it on your hair, instead.
Ray
PS. I am working on developing a sharpening system using blocks of clay as the medium. Various grits of abrasive can be incorporated into different colors of clay, similar to buffing compounds. The advantage over contemporary waterstones, is that the blocks of clay must be flattened with every pass of the dull iron, thus effectively eliminating the need for woodworking altogether.
Ray,
I am such an old fashioned woodworker, and you are so up on new technology -- such as the solites. You must spend so much time reading about this stuff that you don't have much time for woodworking, but people like me, who learn from advanced technology folks like you, are in your debt.I read about a guy who said that he needs to flatten his oilstone every 15 years or so. He works on the edges, and that keeps things pretty flat. I saw Ron Hock in a video yesterday in which he started on a 800 grit diamondstone, progressed to a 4000 grit surgical black hard arkansas stone, and ended up with an 8000 grit waterstone. WOW. This guy probably switches churches every Sunday too. Since I have the diamondstone and oilstone he was using, and I have a different 8000 grit waterstone, I am going to give that technique a shot -- not for practical reasons, but so that I can start another sharpening thread.I may check to see if I can skip from the diamondstone to the waterstone while skipping the 4000 grit oilstone. Since so many people go directly from a 1000 grit stone to a 8000 grit stone, it might just work. If that works, then I will have come up with an improvement on a Hock practice. BRAGGING RIGHTS!. If you keep changing how you sharpen, and get the new cinder block, you can sell your old one on the Classifieds. People are always looking for used sharpening systems.Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
What, me read?
I learned about the solite blocks when we built my dad's shop after he moved in with us a few, well, 20, years ago. What do you call that, an overlap or a spillover of technology? Those masons were using perfectly good sharpening blocks in the foundation of a building!
Years and years ago, back when I was dating the girl who was to become my wife, my future mother-in-law expressed great anticipation at the impending arrival of her sister Thelma and brother-in-law Bill from Ohio. The reason for the excitement was not only familial sentiment, but that "Uncle Bill" had promised to sharpen all the kitchen knives, as was his wont when there for a visit. His sharpening system? The (unglazed) edge of a crock!
Ray
Ray,
We have some crocks. I will try to sharpen a knife on the crock.
Then I will call Norton and Shapton, and see if I can sell the idea.
You will get 5%.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Boss,
Nothing wrong with the Norton stuff. Or the Smith's stuff (that comes with the gen-u-wine Arkansas stones). Or the Camellia stuff I don't suppose. Or motor oil thinned with kerosene (parafin oil for you Brits, coal oil for residents of Appalachia- you out there Sarge?) But-
The Marvel Mystery oil won't help your arrhythmia. The mfrs advertise it as a good oil for top ends. Maybe it would grow hair, or act to ease the shifting of paradigms.
On a more serious note (if that is possible for me on a sharpening thread), for sharpening kitchen knives, I have a coarse diamond stone and a soft wa$hita that stay in the kitchen, next to the sink. They are slathered with liquid dish detergent, in lieu of oil, then after the deed is done they and the knife are simply rinsed off. I know it is the work of the Devil to use water on an oil stone. But it works just fine, and further, does not need to be flattened every FIVE MINUTES like it would if I used a waterstone...every FIVE MINUTES like it would if I used a Waterstone...every FIVE MINUTES like it would if---you get my drift.
A counselor once explained the concept of mindfulness to me, as regards stress management. It occurred to me that mindfullness in woodworking has several applications, not the least of which is the way one uses an oilstone. I find that using an oilstone "mindfully", it is possible to maintain all the flatness that is necessary for everyday sharpening for years. How many years, you may be wondering? I'll let you know when it becomes necessary. Now, I did dish out my first carborundum bench stone, by concentrating its wear in the center of the stone. When I got a new one, I was inspired by a line from an interview with G Nakashima in FWW, in which he said something to the effect that, "These young woodworkers, they don't even know how to keep from dishing out their benchstones." HE didn't bother to say how HE kept from doing that (Hell, maybe it was by flattening them every five minutes), but I was inspired to try to do the same. Not to refrain from flattening, but to keep from dishing out. It can be done. It's not difficult, and it takes no time away from normal sharpening. Unless you use a jig that has to run on one end of the stone. But, that's not normal. Hah.
Ray
Did you know that you can use soapy water on your oilstones? Works just as well or better than oil. You want real soap, not liquid detergents. Shave a bar of ivory on your wife's cheese grater. You don't have to do anything to your stone. Soapy water also works well on waterstones.
The soap contains surfactants that reduce the surface tension of water. This allows the water to flow into the tiny pores in your stones (instead of balling up on top). Oil or water isn't used to lubricate the stone. The liquid is there to prevent the metal swarf from clogging the pores of the stone. That's why we don't need liquids for diamond stones. They are non-porous.
Just throwing this out there in case you're interested.
One more thing. Did you know that modern synthetic waterstones are just Aluminum Oxide? Chemically, it's the same grit as a Norton India stone, or the white grinding wheel on your grinder. The difference is the binder. And that can make a big difference.
Adam
"Shave a bar of ivory on your wife's cheese grater. "
Ha! Adam, something tells me that you just started a domestic ruckus in several hundred kitchens all over the world, especially since the cheese grater in a lot of houses doesn't get used until the last step garnishment of the sphagetti sauce!
I use Nortons, and have used King's in the past. Both are excellent, though the Norton 220 grit isn't really a "waterstone" in the sense of having the same composition as the 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit stones.
Another option recently on the market are Shapton Glasstones (sold by Lie-Nielsen, perhaps other retailers that I don't know about). There's one individual in the local woodworking club that purchased these and likes them, but I haven't used them myself.
Regarding natural waterstones - the higher quality ones from Japan are harshly expensive. I've been told that these are a bit softer and cut a bit faster than the synthetic stones, but I don't have first-hand experience. Paying $500 for a polishing stone is way more than my budget will bear...
I bought two norton combo waterstones, and they work fine. King can save you a bit of money and work just fine. When I wore out one of the Nortons I bought a shapton. I've since switched pretty much over to shaptons (1000, 5000, 8000) and I like them quite a bit - they're fast, and don't require as much maintenance (read: flattening) as the Nortons or Kings I've used did, and they don't require soaking before use which adds to convenience. They do a fine job sharpening blades, but no better than the Nortons or Kings do in my non-microscope-edge-checking experience. They are relatively expensive, though, and the plane irons really don't care much. The cost was worth it to me, but isn't necessary in my opinion.edit: I didn't mean this as a reply to dkeller, but for clarity's sake: The shapton 1000 and 5000 I have are professional series, but the 8000 is a glasstone. I like both. I'll probably get a professional finishing stone if I ever wear out the glasstone, but purely because in the long run I think they'll be just a tiny bit less expensive over a lifetime of use. Likely to save me several cents a year :)
Edited 9/10/2008 12:05 pm ET by raney
There must be something wrong with my Norton 220. It is very soft and dishes way fast. I almost never use it. I like the Shaptons. I only have one of the old green ones = 2000. I was concerned that it would not be a good value because it was so thin but I wanted a 2000 and it came with the cool protective, ventilated box. It cuts fast and I hardly ever flatten it (stays flat ) so I am very happy with Shapton. If I were to do it over I would get all Shapton but they were not available when I got into water stones.
I bought an Ice Bear 10,000 that is not as fine (or as pure/polishes but scratches too) as my 8000 yellow Norton. Be sure to get the chunk of silty stone for cleaning the pores of your finer stones. Called a Nagura.
I bought the pink stone with the groves cut in it to flatten and freshen the grit of my other stones. I found it to not be as flat as I expected and wound up flattening it on my extra coarse diamond DMT Duosharp which are expensive and worth it !
My way is probably excessive but I like it and get totally awesome results:
700 or coarse/extra coarse DMT determined by need to change angel (DMT) or just cut to sharpen (700).
1000 red no name stone
2000 green Shapton
4000 white Norton
8000 yellow Norton
Being a metal worker first I enjoy the flat, almost mirror polished surfaces of these blades when fresh sharpened.
Can literally shave a curl off a single hair; observed this using a magnifying visor.
Some day I want a 15000 Shapton just 'cause I want it but is lotso bucks.
I sharpen radiused blades on one side of the stones and reserve the other side for just straight finish blades and lapping backs of blades.
Using so many stones with few strokes per stone I find I do not need to flatten stones but rarely though I keep a close eye on this.
One very satisfying "secret" I will share; I put my stones in tap water ( the water off Pikes Peak seams fine ) in a separate Tupperware tub for each. Draw a vacuum by burping lid and you don't get slime !
Edited 10/25/2008 12:19 am by roc
They refer to it as honing. I used the 220 to get the first edge on a new set of six chisels; I call that sharpening. I didn't see any significant wear on the 220 when I was finished.
Using a honing guide I then progressing thru the 1000, 4000, and 8000 Norton stones. I was careful to move around on the stone in order to distribute the wear pattern. Rubbing the face of the 4K and 8K on the 1K pretty much re-flattened the stones. I just acquired a piece of granite that I going to use from now on with a 220 grit wet & Dry to flatten my stone.
I'm a hobbies; with the little amount of honing that will be required from now, these stone will last me a long time.
>220
It is as if they forgot to "fire" my 220. It was cheep and I have had it for years so not much chance of returning it but good to know yours is good. I have plenty of what I need to sharpen so no big deal.
Shapton is by far and away the best system I've ever used. 220/1000/5000/8000 or 15000. The key is the diamond lapping plate. It's pricey at almost $500 for the diamond plate, and the stones range from $50 to $130 each (they actually have a 30,000 grit stone at ~$600!), but the speed and result is amazing. Once you get your bevel and back really flat, keeping the tool sharp will never take more than a few minutes.
Check out the info and videos at: http://www.shaptonstones.com/
The Shapton Diamond Lapping Plate is indeed excellent. I picked up a new one very reasonably priced from a deceased estate. Otherwise it would be very pricy and I'd have stuck with the next best alternative, a DMT Extra Coarse diamond stone. The Shapton plate is faster - and flatter - if one can say that at this level. It does help to be flat if you want angle repeatability on a bevel, more so if you are using a honing guide.
More reasonable flattening alternatives include 240 grit beltsander belts glued to glass (the Shapton plate is 275 grit).
Prior to getting the Shaptons (1000/5000/8000/12000 - only the 1000 was purchased new and two were gifts, so this lot was cheap for me), I used Kings before the Shaptons. They are still a good waterstone, and pretty cheap. The 8000 is a particularly excellent finishing stone. I have also used Nortons (as owned by others), which lie between the softer Kings and the Shaptons for hardness of surface. The softer stones are more forgiving to beginners but require more frequent flattening (however even the Shaptons need to be flattened every few blades).
I prefer not to go below 800 for a grinding waterstone. A 220 (I have a King) is too soft and dished very rapidly. Manmade waterstones must use a soft binder to release fresh grit to continue cutting efficiently.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I use a DMT 600 to quicky get a burr then a Shapton 2000 to reduce the burr and then the Takenoko 8000 grit waterstone for polishing. While the Shapton is indeed great at sharpening and staying flat, I find the fact of having to flatten the Shapton with my DMT 220 plate frustrating. My DMT 220 is wearing out quickly due to flattening the Shapton. And I just don't want to invest in an expensive diamond plate just for flattening my Shapton. I would prefer to just stick with regular waterstones that are easily flattened with sandpaper and a float glass or a granite block. As my existing stones wear out (and my DMT plates as well due to flattening my Shapton), I may give diamond paste a try. Rather than investing in Shapton and an expensive diamond plate I would consider by-passing the Shapton and go straight to using diamond paste. However, since I haven't used diamond paste, not sure about the cost effectiveness over time.
Herb,
You don't need to use the real McCoy diamond plate to flatten or condition stones-at all. You can get a set of three cheapies-ten dollars or so-and use the coarse one just for that purpose. Just glue it onto a piece of wood to make a handle.
I think that diamond paste for honing is going over the top, unless you use it on a strop.Philip Marcou
PhilipHowdy!Say, what do you mean by "three cheapies"? Herb
Herb, I will have a photo by tonight.Philip Marcou
Herb,
Here are three cheap diamond plates which I am sure you will find in USA as well-they are made in China and are supplied as a set of three. They are therefore polycrystalline as opposed to monocrystalline.
Three grades and I just glued the coarse one to a piece of wood. Size: 6 inches by 2 inches.
Good for stone dressing, but if folk are using these in lieu of the real thing (Monocrystalline ) for honing tool steels they will be disappointed.
Philip Marcou
Try using a lapping plate to flatten your stones.
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