Is it doable to stain a project with an oil base stain then apply a water base top coat? What if the oil base stain is bubbling up through the water base top coat?
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Replies
Stains and topcoats can be very cantankerous - particularly when it comes to compatibility -- unless you know what's in them. Unfortunately, that's impossible, since the manufacturers don't list ingredients.
Its possible that your stain was not fully cured when you put the topcoat on. Its also possible that the wood was not completely dry. And, it is entirely possible that you have incompatible products.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Thank you!
I realize there are a number of variable involved, in my shop the ambient temp was above 63 degrees, low humidity and project surface (white oak) clean and oil free. Lets assume for a minute the finishes are compatible and I rushed the finishing process. How long do you wait for a stain to cure? One more thing, I kept on wiping down the project until the stain's bleeding stopped.
When the intent is to overcoat an oil based stain with a waterborne topcoat, you must let the stain fully dry. This can take 5-8 days depending on the amount of stain used and the temperature. It also assumes that the excess stain was thoroughly wiped down after application.Howie.........
Thank you, I will keep that in mind when it comes to my next staining projects. And YES! I wiped the stain down a number of times, I must have soaked the project too much to achieve the desirable tent, at the time I did not know you could mix stain like you can paint. Applying stain is a project in itself!
>>>How long do you wait for a stain to cure? As mentioned by another, a week is a good idea, especially when your shop's temp is in the low 60's. If it were constantly near or above 70, maybe 4 or 5 days.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
I have come to the water based party just very recently, and I too was concerned about the compatibility with oil based products. I don't use stains, but I do use oil both tinted and clear to enhance the color of dyed wood. I also used oil base fillers.
I did a test piece this summer with a brushed on water based polyurethane from General Finishes. I let the oil and filler dry for a week, and then used a very thin barrier coat of de-waxed shellac. The finish looked great and I had no adhesion problems. The table was a donation piece, but I have scene it since then and I see the woman who won it frequently; she has reported no problems, and I don't expect any. I have just switched to a sprayed on water based lacquer for my table tops, and I found the adhesion of this to be superior to the oil varnish I had been using, something I would not have believed possible.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
It seems like the shellac sealer is the key. Like you, I seal layers and have no problems. It might be a good tip to encourage the use of dyes as a first step as opposed to the oil and floating pigment. You just don't get the even colors with pigmented oil stains you get with the dye. After I have sealed a dye, I have used thick oil pigment to enhance the color but only after sealing the dye coat.
Is this what you are thinking??
dan
Dan,
We are on the same page. I don't like stains on raw wood, because they obscure the grain. I like to use dyes or chemicals (lye/lime) to color the wood and then enhance that color with dyed oils on the raw wood, or like you a thick stain over a seal coat. On curly maple I oil it and then seal with shellac and apply a heavy coat of brown gel stain; the seal coat keeps it from muddying the color, but the gel adds some depth and age. On mahogany I like to alter the color with lime, and then adjust the color and deepen it with dye tinted oil. I'm still very new to this water based stuff, but I'm sold on it.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob
I've gone to the water soluble stuff for the ease of changing directions. If I get a little too dark, I can wipe it off with some water. It doesn't streak like the alcohol mix. That makes life easier. In the past, I have used a good bit of potassium dichromate on the mahogany. Sometimes it got just a little too red. In the end I was going over it with green dye to bring it back to a browner tone. Too much red doesn't get me. I know they were crazy about red in the 18th century but.. I like to come back a little to the browns. A little yellow in the process is nice too.
Recently, I am tinting the shellac and getting good results. This is a learning curve deal. Lots of tests and patience. Either way I have found sealing the base color makes the end results more even and less cloudy.
I would love to just apply a finish coat to the walnut I use but there is just enough difference in boards to get me to lightly color to match. I guess its all about taste and what you or the customer wants.
Hide Glue:
I am still working up some test ideas with the hide glues. I am ordering some gram variations: 192/240 to see how the tack and set up times vary. I'm a bit out of date here. I had so much(6-7lbs) around over the years from Mohawk. You know that's old. I don't have a clue what gram strength it is?? I have used lots of it to make watery sizing to precoat substrates and some joints for final glue-ups. Laying down larger sheets has been lots easier when I pre size. When all else fails I just get out the old clothes iron and reheat. Hard to miss with that back up.
Will post more as I go. By the way your demonstrations on the tea caddy are outstanding. As good as anything under the "Ask the Experts" pull down.
dan
"...I have just switched to a sprayed on water based lacquer for my table tops, and I found the adhesion of this to be superior to the oil varnish I had been using, something I would not have believed possible."
Rob, what brand of water based lacquer do you use?Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I have been using Ultima Spray Lacquer from Target Coatings.
You can read more about it at my blog.
http://americanfederalperiod.com/blog.html
Rob Millard
Love your stuff Rob! I read your article and learned a lot. I just bought a HVLP sprayer and I am looking at finishes for a hutch I'm making. I have used dyes in the past and this is my first shot at cherry. I'm wanting natural look and non plastic look to the piece. I subscribed to your blog, great information. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Hi Rob,
You beat me to the punch. I used Target products on the last two pieces I made and I think they are great. Oil is easily sealed with Target WB UltraSeal Shellac then I top coat with the Target Emtech EM8000 conversion varnish. What a great easy to use system. I can't wait to get my hands on a good sprayer (am using a Campbell Hausfeld? two stage now) to lay down some more of the great stuff from Target.
Did you spray the Target product? If so what type of sprayer are you using? I have been considering the Fuji Q3 Pro, any experience with it?
By the way, I am a big fan of your work, wish I lived near you, I would make a pest of myself:)
Bob, Tupper lake, NY
Edited 2/26/2008 7:12 pm ET by salamfam
Bob,
I called Jeff Jewitt and he had a gun that would work off my little pancake compressor.
The gun is a QS-125 WB from his in house line, sold under the QualSpray brand.
I'm going to have to give the water based shellac a try.
If you lived closer, you'd be welcome anytime.
Rob Millard
Your problem is primarily due to the wood you stained. The large pores in oak can wick in large quantities of the stain and hold it deep in the wood in liquid form for weeks. The stain will slowly come back to the surface as the finish at the exposed end of the pore dries out.
John White
The problem that John mentions is primarily a concern with red oak. The pores of red oak act like a straw that wicks the oil or stain into the wood. The pores of white oak are blocked and won't store oil to nearly the same degree.
Rob
Putting a water base over an oil base is usually not recommended. It will work, but only after FULL curing, which depending on your oil base type, could take months. Now, if you'll interface it with dewaxed shellac, you can through with the procedure almost instantaneously.
Edited 2/26/2008 11:52 am ET by blewcrowe
Check out this link:
http://www.shellacshack.com/shellac-and-water-bourne-.html
Malcolm
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