Watcha think about hybrid table saws?
OzarkAngler
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Shop too small for a full size cabinet saw and don’t want to have to worry about 220v. Need more power and precision than contractor saw. Thinking about buying Delta’s 10″ hybrid, looks like a small version of the Unisaw.
Anybody have an opinion?
Replies
"Looks like a small version of the Unisaw" doesn't mean much, IMHO [see last sentence in this post]. I'm in the midst of deciding between a hybrid or a cabinet saw, and am discovering that the boundary between the two is starting to fuzz up a bit. But if you're sticking with 120V, that means a 2HP or less motor for the most part (some exceptions, but check to see how big a breaker you'd need).
My own personal "must haves" in a new saw include having cabinet-mounted trunnions and above-the-table adjustment for the 45° and 90° stops. No exceptions. That will eliminate quite a few saws. One thing I find frustrating is that the magazine reviews don't give you clear information on these two features. In addition to those two things, I'd also like to have a riving knife. The new Steel City hybrid, due out soon, will have one. If no riving knife, at the very least an easily/quickly removed splitter/guard assembly. I would remove the guard anyway, and use my overhead PSI guard, with the stock splitter or an insert-mounted splitter.
Speaking of magazine reviews, the recent Popular Woodworking review of hybrids gave Delta the lowest marks for motor power. They seemed to like everything else.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/23/2008 11:50 pm by forestgirl
Cabinet saws and hybrid saws are virtually the same size. Using the Delta example, both can be had with 30" rip capacity rails so the width would be the same, and both have tables that are 27" deep.
It is true that cabinet saws are generally sold with 3 hp. motors which do call for 220 volt power. The jump to 3 hp. from the 1 1/2 or scant 2 hp. that are available with 110 power is fairly significant, and makes the difference between thin kerf blades and full kerf blades. There's not much wrong with thin kerf but they do tend to make slightly less smooth cuts, particularly when ripping.
The most important difference is that typically the trunnions are different between the two types and that difference means that the hybrid will be a bit harder to align and keep alighned especially with respect to having both the blade that is parallel at 90° remain so when it is tilted to 45°.
"The most important difference is that typically the trunnions are different between the two types and that difference means that the hybrid will be a bit harder to align and keep alighned especially with respect to having both the blade that is parallel at 90° remain so when it is tilted to 45°." Steve, is this not the case only with the trunnions that are mounted to the table??? A few, if not several, of the current hybrids have cabinet-mounted trunnions, which makes the alignment issue a non-factor, IMHO, as the table simply needs to be shifted. As to the 90/45° problem, my understanding is that that particular problem is primarily in the contractor saw design where the motor hangs out the back. I can see where it might still be a bit of a problem if the trunnions for an interior-mount motor are still table-mounted, would like more specific info on what your saying here.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I was thinking about the table mounted trunnions. Cabinet mounted trunnions ought to be a lot easier to adjust for parallel, as you say. I think it used to be easier to define the differences--it used to be that all the hybrids were just contractor saws with the motor mounted differently.
My last serious look at these saws was a while ago. I haven't paid so much attention since I got my 40s vintage Unisaw. That brings up the point that the cabinet saw design is certainly well tested and has changed little since the 40's. New ones won't be sold for many more years given the UL requirements calling for riving knives.
Thanks for the feedback, all. The Fine WoodWorking hybrid TS review (couple issues ago?) noted acceptable trunnion alignment tolerences at 90 and 45 and adequate power when ripping 8/4 stock. I found myself succumbing to paralaysis through analysis so decided what the heck, order the Delta 36-717 Hybrid 10" w/Biesmeyer fence, and so I did. Should be in aroun 2/4.
My next big task is fitting the new saw in the small, 120 sq. ft. shop I'm building. Seriously . . . . BD
120 sqft is better than no sqft. :)
Since I have moved I have gone from a very tight (for all the stuff I have) 330 sqft, to over 1,000 sqft at my new house. And more room to expand if I wanted to, by just moving a dividing wall.
With all this room I have visions of all the tools I have dreamed of having. Just my wallet brings me back to reality. :)
I have been using a Sears cotractors saw for 5 years now (current saw). Although I really can't say it has really failed me in any way. I will be moving up to a cabinet saw. Fortunately for me the shop building at my new house has its own 200 amp service. Actually the house only has 100 amp service so the shop building is better than the house. I keep modding the sear saw. I have combined 2 sets of fence rails for 54" rip to the right and 20" to the left if I need it. I have made my own set of P.A.L.S. from parts bought at Home Depot. And switched to machined pulleys and link belt. So really as long as I keep a sharp blade on the saw, it performs ok. It does have issues with 10/4 hard maple though. So for me I am not sure another 1/2 hp will be worth spending $1,000 on a new saw. I will probably go with a 5hp cabinet saw once I get enough in my wallet. Thats the plane anyway. I do have the luxury of having over 20 available spaces in my load center to add tools on.
Hopefully you have a 20 amp 120 circuit to run the new Delta on. And hopefully have have another circuit for the lights. My old shop (garage at rental house). Only had 1 15amp circuit for the garage. Lights plus any heavy load on the saw would make things go dark. I did finally get another 20 amp circuit added, at my expense of course.
Edited 1/27/2008 5:13 am ET by benhasajeep
I loved your comment "120 sq ft is better than no sq ft". I'm still chuckling!!! Your new shop sounds great. Enjoy . . . . BD
Ozark.... When I bought my Delta Hybrid from Woodcraft, I also bought a Jet adjustable mobile stand. I don't move the saw much, only (10) ft. or so. Works good for me.
James
I ordered the Delta mobile base when I ordered the saw (from Amazon.com). They haven't come in yet. Do you like the Delta Hybrid table saw? I'm wondering now if I should have gotten the Unisaw? My main concern is the Hybrid's power. From the reviews I read sounds like the hybrid can cut 8/4 material reasonably well. What's your experience?
Hi OA - I don't own the Delta hybrid, but do own a Craftsman hybrid that has a very similar motor and drive system. It's cut 12/4 hardwoods without much struggle. With good alignment and proper blade selection, it'll cut whatever you want to full blade height. For thick wood, I usually use a decent thin kerf 24T rip blade. The Unisaw would do it faster, and could do it day in and day out for years, but for most hobbyists, the hybrid shouldn't pose an obstacle for what you'll want to cut.
Thanks, Scott. I ordered the saw on Amazon.com and it hasn't come in yet but youre making me feel better about my decision - I was second guessing whether or not I should have ordered a 220v 3hp Unisaw. Thanks again . . . . BD
Ozark......I'm quite happy w/ the Delta Hybrid. The 1 3/4 hp is sufficient for most of what we hobbists do, FWIW. I don't have room for a Unisaw & don't see a need for one. I paid $861.86 including the mobile base & tax, that alone justifies not getting a Unisaw.
James
James, thanks for your reply. What model did you buy and when? I just ordered the Delta 36-717, 10", 1 3/4 hp hybrid table saw w/Beismeyer (sp?) fence from Amazon.com for $1,099. Glad you're satisfied with the performance, especially the power.
I have a General 220C Hybrid saw. It really isn't that much smaller than a full sized cabinet saw... I guess it depends onw hat options you have. Anyway the saw has been a solid performer.
I rewired it to 220V afew years back. If you can go for 220V then do it, the tools just perform much better.
Hi "OA" - A standard size 3hp cabinet saw with 30" rip wouldn't take up any more space, but would necessitate 220v. A hybrid makes sense if you don't have 220v.
There are currently three basic trunnion styles on the most recent generations of the full features hybrids.
Style 1. table mounted with a one piece cast arbor carriage (Jet, GI, Woodtek, Sunhill, Grizzly [pictured], Shop Fox, Hitachi)
View Image
Style 2. cabinet mounted with (Steel City, Craftsman)
View Image
Style 3. table mounted with beefed up connecting rods for an arbor carriage (Delta)....sorry, no pic, but it uses the rods you see above in type 2 and the table mounted trunnion brackets from 1.
Styles 1 and 2 each have some advantages going for them...which is best is an oft debated topic, and both have their virtues. Style 3 offers the least advantage over the other two. The Delta hybrids use style 3 with table mounted trunnions and the connecting rods, so from that perspective they have a mechanical disadvantage. With that noted, they're still considered plenty capable by owners, and they offer 3 good fence choices.
The issue with table mounted trunnions is that they're more difficult to reach and align, than the cabinet mounted style b/c you need to loosen the trunnion bolts and align the entire carriage to the table. The cabinet mounted trunnion bolts are easy to reach, and very easy to align b/c you align the table to the blade. They also add a bunch of mass. The connecting rods are a beefed up version of the same design used in a traditional contractor saw, which were prone to "racking" when the tilted. WIth the hybrids, the location of the motor helps put less leverage on the rods, plus they're a bit oversized in comparison....theoretically they could still rack but so far I've not read of a single case of someone experiencingn that issue. The one piece carriage system is not prone to racking.
FWIW, I've been very pleased with my Craftsman 22124.
Edited 1/24/2008 5:26 am ET by Knotscott
Sounds like Knotscott pretty much summed it up but I'll add this opinion.What he referred to as Type 3 hybrid arrangement has another possible disadvantage. The belt is tensioned by the hanging motor weight only. Also that hanging motor is only supported by the rear trunnion. So when tilted all the weight of the motor is hanging from one end of the saw carriage which could cause twist. Other design distribute the weight more evenly and and lock the belt tension.But as he stated I've not heard of anyone complaining about racking with this type of setup. So they may have beefed up the torque rods enough that it holds adjustment even with that arrangement. Just another source of potential carriage flex but may not be an issue in practice.Happy saw hunting.
"The cabinet mounted trunnion bolts are easy to reach, and very easy to align b/c you align the table to the blade." Knotscott, this is the type I want in the new saw. Isn't it the case that you don't need to reach the trunnion bolts, because you loosen the fasteners of the table to align the table, and don't need to touch the trunnion bolts? Just trying to get a clear picture here.
Another question: You mentioned virtues for both #1 and #2. In what way(s) could #1 be argued to be better than #2?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/24/2008 11:28 am by forestgirl
Hi FG - You're description of loosening the table bolts is accurate. The trunnion bolts are nearby on saws with cabinet mounted trunnions, and loosening them would actally be a bad idea...glad you pointed it out! "Another question: You mentioned virtues for both #1 and #2. In what way(s) could #1 be argued to be better than #2?"The one-piece cast blade shroud that acts as a carriage for the arbor and connects the front and rear trunnion brackets is even less prone to racking (if at all), so from that perspective it's theoretically superior to the rods, but they are harder to reach and require adjusting the whole carriage. I wish someone would offer a hybrid that had underpinnings with a one piece carriage that connects to table mounted trunnions...kind of a lighter duty version of what industrial cabinet saws offer.
Edited 1/24/2008 3:10 pm ET by Knotscott
Option #2 (cabinet saw type of arrangement) ---- it's hard for me to see any arguments against it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I guess I've realigned the torque rods too many times and am gun shy about that design. I've found its easier to realign table mounted trunnions than readjusting those torque tubes. But I'm with Knotscott. Wish a manufacturer would do the one piece carriage with cabinet mounted trunnions. That would probably be plenty for most furniture work and really fill the gap between contractor and 3+hp cabinet saws. I tend to think of cabinet saws in terms of being built for tens of thousands of hours of operation (industrial) which I think is way overkill for a one person shop. Obviously they do the job but an independent furniture builder is doing too many other things to ever be spinning a table saw exclusively 40+ hours a week exclusively.
Just an opinion but, If I were going to have a stationary saw that would never be moved it would be a cabinet saw. Continually moving a cabinet saw could be problematic in that you might possibly rack the cabinet, even if only .020 you will through alignment out of wack. With a table mounted system it won't matter if the legs get racked, the trunnion and table are an integral unit. My DW746 gets moved to accommodate sheet goods some times and is still true as ever.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Good point, Bruce, hadn't thought of that. Will keep it in mind when I build a mobile platform for my new cabinet saw. Hah hah. Nah, we'll see. I just picked up some extra horse work, so there's a little more ka-ching in my future. Waiting until the time is right! With the riving knives becoming mandatory in 2009, seems like it would be wise to opt for a current model that has one, for resale value, ya know. Just in case I decide to sell the darned thing some day.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
About a year ago, I started reading about the Sears hybrid TS, and was curious. I wouldn't be caught dead buying my tools at Sears, usually. But there is a store close by, and, having read so many favorable reviews, I thought I owed it to myself to check it out. After being impressed with the mass and structure of the saw, I went back to the chat rooms and discovered lots of satisfied owners. I ended up buying it and have never regretted it for a minute. It comes with a Biesemeyer fence and a 30" rip capacity, too, two things my contractor saw had lacked. Although it says "SEARS" on the label, it's really just sold by them. The story has been told many times over. Two guys from Delta broke off and developed this saw and Sears agreed to market it. Check it out.
Bob K
Thanks, Bob. Since posting my question I've ordered a Delta hybrid table saw. Fine Woodworking did a review of several hybrids couple issues ago. Thanks for your reply.
Anybody have an opinion?
I would love a better saw BUT my current saw.. A Big Box.. RIDGID is MORE than OK! OK so I said it... It is FAR from Junk! I have made many projects from it and except for the motor hanging out the back (space I need) I have NO complaints!
SO you know where I come from.. I had a Ryobi 3000? sliding table (junk saw) that I loved.. OK so I'm strange.. ( I also have several RYOBY Routers that I USE EVERY day (except winter.. Shop is COLD) However, both worked more than OK for me for what I asked it to do and then some! AND the price was right!
EDIT.. I bet I can make a few sticks fit as well as any saw!
Edited 1/26/2008 9:57 am by WillGeorge
Hi WG - It's likely that there weren't many hybrids available at the time you picked up your contractor saw....that was my situation 5 years ago when I grabbed a GI 50-185...it was a great contractor saw. If you were shopping now, and could find a hybrid in your price range with the features you wanted, would you choose a conventional contractor design over a hybrid? If so, why?
Careful about calling the Ryobi BT3000 a "junk saw" -- Sarge'll come and getcha (ROFL!!) Funny little saw, but I've seen some amazing work made by them, including a guy in Australia who makes gorgeous artful chairs.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hybrid and cabinet saws use the same amount of space. I just had a professional electrician install another 30A 220V breaker and outlet for $110 and I think you could have it done for less.
I find it interesting how little time it took the manufactures to come out with all these Hybrids. Unfortunately they're mostly all pivot mounted motors. I think by this time next year will begin to see the proliferation of horizontally lifted motors equipped with riving knives on all classes of table saws. It might be worth the wait.
Vic
I bought a left tilt Hybrid Delta in January. Keep looking. The saw was over 1/4" out of alignment when I got it, spent the better part of the day setting it up and adjusting it. Still could not get close to getting it correct. Called Delta 3 times that day and they finally agreed to send a tech out from a local repair shop. He got it close that day, maybe 1/64" out of parallel. I have called the same repair shop back and they are getting another authorization from Delta. They were informed by Delta that this saw and it's alignment tubes are problematic, they are getting a lot of calls.
First day out the box, some of the fence mounting bolts are missing, not really from the list, but not enough to bolt up all the holes. Call me crazy but keeping the fence locked in place is essential. If you can use 4 bolts, why not. The table was milled with a ridge in the top, easy to remove with a steel plate and sand paper but what does that say about quality control. All in all the first day was a hassle, and I could not use the saw for 3 days...
I move my saw on casters, this may be causing me the problems of moving out of alignment. If it happens again, I will be contacting Delta and returning it back.
As they say, keep walking and choose something else, anything else, But don't buy this thing!
AZMO, sorry about your bad experience. I ordered the 10" left tilt Delta Hybrid cabinet saw and it came in a couple of weeks ago. Didn't require any adjustments and has been working great.
OsarkAngeler,
Well lifes little frustrations are what you deal with. After having a shop come out and adjust the bars and trunnions for the second time it seems to be working great. It is so critical to have the blade as parallel to the miter slide and ripfence. Now that it is adjusted the wood flys through the blade.
Did you get the Delta fence or aftermarket Beismeyer? My Delta fence setup was missing enough bolts to really anchor the fence. I have added a router table to the saw, made my own, and the extra weight likes to move the fence. The router table with the rockler lift it a nice setup.
AZMO
I got the factory Beismeyer and had several bolts left over after installing the fences (front and rear). Instructions didn't say how many to use. I think I ended up putting 5 bolts in the front fence and 5 in the rear fence. Problem was it was difficult to get the bolts in the holes between the miter gague slots, not much clearance between the side of the cabinet and the holes in the overhanging table top. You may know what I'm talking about having installed yours.
Glad you got the alignment worked out. I'm fortunate mine was o.k. out of the crate. Thanks for your comments . . . . OA
OA..... Maybe you could send your extra bolts to Azmo?
James
Looks like maybe we need to set up a Leftover Parts exchange.
-Steve
I am only glad I live close to an Ace harware store with enough bolts to fix anything. This is how we keep the economy ticking?
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