Hello all, migrated over here from Breaktime, thinking my question is more suited to this forum.
I am looking to replace a gunstock on a rifle of mine and have found a manufacturer that can do so. (It’s not easy to find a new stock for a discontinued left-hand rifle made in Finland)
Anyways, this guy will make it out of either claro or American black walnut. Any advantage to one or the other? He offers stocks from plain-jane straight grain to some amazingly figured walnut. The claro & black walnut are both the same price.
Thanks for any insight,
Mike
Replies
"The common name "claro walnut" is usually used to refer to the wood cut from the lower bole (stump) of orchard walnut trees, especially on the West coast of the US. These trees are a mixture of species, created by grafting an English walnut (Juglans regia) scion to a rootstock of one of our native walnut species -- either black walnut (Juglans nigra) or California walnut (Juglans hindsii). The wood near the graft tends to be variegated in color, with beautiful marble-like, dark brown and tan swirls in the figure. It is a favorite wood for making gunstocks."
"There is some confusion about the term "claro", since the lumber trade sometimes uses it to describe the wood of ordinary California walnut, which is more like black walnut, rather than the marbled variety cut from orchard trees."
If it is really claro walnut, it should have more figure, and be slightly lighter in overall tone. If it is Californian Walnut, it will be a little lighter in tone than black walnut. But, there really isn't much difference, between Claro, Californian and Black Walnut, with respect to mechanical properties that will matter in a gun stock.
Basically, it comes down to how much figure you want in your stock, and picking the best figured blank for the price available. A reputable stock maker will know how to orient the grain to avoid weakness in the grip area, (which is where stocks typically break if they do break).
So, ask if they can email you pictures of a few proposed blanks, that have been wet with a little mineral spirits to simulate a finish on the wood, and see if there is one that catches your eye.
Claro. Period
First . . . Finland? Dude. Theres a lot of very competent stockmakers here. Anyway, you want Claro. That I totally agree with. You'll be much happier with the end result. Before you sign any deals you want to see up close and personal pics of the quality the guy does in the inletting, bedding, and checkering department.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Sounds like claro it'll be.
No, the stockmaker is here in the states; The rifle is a Tikka, made in Finland (Believe it or not, Tikka is Finnish for 'woodpecker'- It keeps hitting the same hole - get it?)
Thanks for the replies.
Gotcha. Tikka makes a decent action. I built a 280 beanfield on a Sako. Similar. I think thats also Finn, ain't it?Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Yeah, Tikka is made by Sako. Supposed to be a more economical version, same barrel & silky smooth action tho. Most are known for excellent accuracy. Mine is a .270 for chasing Montana mule deer. My stock mysteriously broke last fall when we were out there - ended up using my buddies rifle to take my deer. Hard to find replacement stocks for them.
BTW, I recognize your tagline from Breaktime; I think you helped me out about a year ago when I was looking to get a diesel pickup. So far so good with the diesel, other than the price of fuel.
Mike
Both are Finnish and both are owned by Beretta.
Montana . . . you know, some time ago, there was a dude in Great Falls. Royal Arms gunstocks. He'd worked at an outfit there for aeons, they closed, he said I'm going to still do it. Hole in the wall shop, really good at the trade.
He's the guy who helped me design a stock for that 280. Taught me a lot. When I went to him I said I want to hire you, but I want you to teach. So he did. And I made the patterns, and the stock.
I think the moment when I realised that he really had experience - (you know how you can tell by what, specifically, people have attention to detail with?) - the inletting pattern. The duplicator doesnt care what the outside of that blank is. Just the inside. So he took a big hunk of apple, we jointed a flat edge, hogged it out freehand with the router, filled it with bondo, sprayed the metal with PAM, 30 minutes, we had an inletting blank. Ugly, but certainly did its job quite well.
Thanks for making me remember that dude!
(And diesels ROCK!)Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Wow, you made your own stock, that's pretty cool. I'd love to try it someday. My buddy actually has a stock duplicator. He uses it some for duplicating stair parts on some of the custom stuff we do. Someday I'm gonna make some nice stocks on it for my plain-jane Win. 94. It's the inletting on a one piece bolt-action stock that kinda scares me. You are lucky to have found a good teacher. Have any pictures?
(And diesels ROCK!) :) I'm pretty happy so far.
Mike
Edited 5/11/2008 10:45 pm by arcticcat
I gave up on digital camers after the younguns broke #2.
I've made a number of them, and actually the inletting is kind of fun. Its just like furniture work. Slow, patient, detail oriented. You need inletting screws which help guide the metal straight as you go, some black paste (or you can make your own out of vaseline and artists oil), a handful of gouges, etc. Ideally, theres a barrel rasp which really is a bunch of washers spaced apart with neoprene gaskets that helps shave the run of the barrel, and some inletting floats would be the bomb for the magazine area.
I've got a handful of Dastra chisels and gouges left over from those days, they're the cats meow.
After everything got all nice and square and pretty in there, you'd go and add relief to the section just under the tang, around the bearing lug, and the first 5 inches or so of barrel and then glass the stock. Boy you wanted to make sure you got release agent on everything. Nothing like moving things out of the deep freeze to try and fit a Manliccher in hoping to break the bond somewhere in there. Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
If you can afford it, the best gunstock material by far is black (american) walnut taproot. The taproot is typically used for nothing else, since it's often of relatively small dimensions that prohibit sawing it into boards.
The reason the taproot is used is that it is very, very, hard compared to black walnut cut from the above-ground tree, usually has fantastically beautiful grain, and that grain is inter-locked, which makes splits from the shock of discharging a firearm very unlikely.
The drawback is that it's expensive, since it needs to be excavated rather than just cut down, but some of the most beautiful gunstocks in the world are made from it.
D, I am wondering about your information about the taproot. Are you speaking from experience, or do you have a source that you can give reference to?
I've seen a number of gunstocks made from walnut taproot, but I've never made one myself. The reference is not apocryphal, though. Here's a link to discussion about walnut taproot (and a picture) for that purpose. About 3/4 of the way down the page, a contributor noted a gunstock factory that used to buy walnut root (contributor "N"):
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Sawing_a_Black_Walnut_Root.html
Nice that you chose that link to post, because if you read contributor K you will get exactly what I would have told you, since I wrote it. The point is that the great figure is not in the tap root, which grew when the tree was a sapling. The great figure comes much later on top of the lateral roots, and only in really large trees.
Mike, the most magnificent walnut figure comes from eastern Europe and Turkey.
http://www.krieghoff.com/content/view/13/63/
Although all gunstock blanks need to be evaluated own their own merits , and any wood will vary in individual attributes, most professional stockers prefer juglans regia ( english walnut) due to ease of working > the wood carves easily and does not chip out when checkering. English walnut has a high strength to weight ratio. Black walnut is usually heavier (more dense) than similar blanks of Claro or English. Claro will normally have a pronounced " fiddleback" while the higher grades of black walnut ( juglans nigra) will be selected for a feather grain for the buttstock. Wenig gunstocks in Missouri is very well regarded - but quality restocking is not cheap. You might pose your question to doublegunshop.com for much input. A briief "primer can be found at : http://www.doublegunshop.com/phiatt2.htm
I'd rethink the figured blank for a high-powered bolt gun. Shotguns fine, but a rifle requires minimal and predictable seasonal movement even with glass bedding.
The best rifle blanks still come from straight-grained boles for barrel and action curving gently at the crotch so the grain follows the stock's drop and wrist and butt.
Edited 5/13/2008 3:27 pm by BobSmalser
Bob, you are 100% correct. All one piece rifle stocks must have stable (read that as straight) grain in the forend/action area to remain accurate. The butt area can be figured but it must flow into straight grain through the action and barrel.
I've made many a gun stock from a square blank and I sure would not waste all the hours inletting the metal into a stock that is not stable. Many of my rifles would group under 1/2" at 100 yards from the bench, and shoot to the same point of aim month after month. As you saw the glass bedding, if you use it, and I did, will do nothing to hold an unstable forearm steady. The glass is so thin it does nothing except seal the barrel channel and give you that perfect wood to metal fit. I had one 223 I made with a Mauser action that had a heavy barrel and I floated the action and all but the 6" of barrel in front of the receiver and that 6" was glued to the stock with Brownell's Acuraglass. It maintained a .010 gap around the barrel and action for years and would always shoot to point of aim unless the scope was bumped.
I see you are doing the inlettting using the old fashioned way of sooting the metal with an alcohol lamp. Brings back memories!!
Hang in there, and keep your powder dry!
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
We still glue in the competition rifles after glass bedding. Makes a big difference by the end of a long season that punishes inletting. It's about a consistent 8 inches at 600 yards rather than figure, and all the way through 5000 rounds, too. And when it's time to rebuild, there is nothing the heat gun won't release. This rather fragile walnut handguard has survived two barrel changes being epoxied down fore and aft.
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That's great results Bob. That 223 I mentioned, I eventually sold it and told the new owner that the barrel was glassed in and there was no reason to take it apart for cleaning, and you couldn't remove the barreled action. I had made it into a single shot with a silver soldered in loading tray and the stock did not have any action screws, just 2 wood screws to hold in the Krag style trigger guard. A couple of months later he called and was irate saying I can't get the barrel out of the stock! I had to go through the explanation again.
Keep punching those 30 cal holes in the center of the bullseye.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
How about some fiddleback in the forearm area? Does that tend to move?
Thanks
Mike
Depends on whether the figure comes from growth rings or rays. You want straight growth rings.
Trace the grain of the blank using an awl to test it for straightness. Insure there is no grain runout while you're at it. The inside at the barrel channel is most important. If you compensate by adding clearance when free floating the barrel, you'll defeat your purpose by making a trap for debris that'll impinge on the barrel.
Don't let anyone tell you a straight-grained stock can't be drop-dead gorgeous. Here's a linseed-finished 1903 stock made around 1910. My example of a perfect rifle stock. Note how the grain is not only parallel to the moment of effort beneath action and barrel, but also that it bends slightly to remain parallel with the comb. A straight bole intersecting with the first crotch.
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In turn, some of my early work back when I was in love with figured blanks is functional, but looks more appropriate for a brothel. A good guideline is the more figure, the simpler the application. Leave the expensive blanks for simple, clean doubles.
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