After numerous attempts to quell the ongoing arguments in Knots between Festool and EZ Smart users, we are modifying our recently instituted policy to delete posts that further agitate this issue.
NEW POLICY:
ANY KNOTS MEMBER THAT POSTS A DISPARAGING COMMENT ABOUT ANOTHER USER, NO MATTER THE SUBJECT, WILL BE BANNED FROM KNOTS. THIS INCLUDES POSTS THAT TAUNT OTHER USERS INTO USING DISPARAGING COMMENTS. THIS POLICY BEGINS 12/4/2006 at 8 a.m. et.
We don’t have the time to police Knots so if you would like to report a violation, please use the “options” menu to “report a violation” and we will respond to requests as time permits.
Matt Berger
Fine Woodworking
Replies
Amen, But please be a bit lenient with the Navy/Marine feud. It's a love/hate relationship and done in fun.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Amen, But please be a bit lenient with the Navy/Marine feud. It's a love/hate relationship and done in fun.
Just like a squid...........
Semper Fi
Aye, Aye, Mate.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
MBerger,
does this mean the heated debate about shellac versis poly versis oil contraversey is at risk of such draconian measures too?
Y'know,
One of the good things about messages on the Internet is that no one is forced to read (open) a thread. It's very easy to just ignore the noise - like walking past a closed door to a room in which 2 people are having a silly argument.
Of course, it's understandable that Taunton does not want to have libelous messages here.
But please, keep the hair-trigger response to a minimum. Don't over-react in other threads just on the basis of the silly p*ssing contest that occured in the Festool vs EZ Smart thing.
Rich
Point taken.
I also want to reiterate that we're not going to be actively policing Knots. We don't have the time or resources to do this. But when someone files a violation report, we will look into it and make a decision based on our stated polic
Thanks.
Rich
We aren't discouraging heated discussions. We LOVE debates in Knots. Rather, we're discouraging people from using those debates to tear into each other with personal attacks.
And I wouldn't characterize this as a "draconian measure." We're enforcing a policy that is clearly stated in the user agreement that every Knots member agrees to when they create an account with us.
MBerger,
So it's OK to call other finishing methods names and poke fun at them we just can't call the people who advocate them names? :-)
Right:
"Shellacking is Lacking" is fine.
"Shallackeys are Lackeys" is not.
;-)
Samson,
<<"Shallackeys are Lackeys" is not.>>
But aren't "Shellackeys" "Lackeys" by definition?
;-)Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Bravo!
The threads on these subjects are all but worthless and further questions I've had have been taken elsewhere.
My apologies for highjacking other threads and getting defenisive in the past. I'll do my bets to curb my tongue and stay on track for the sake of the forum.
Thanks,
10saw
This sounds like we're back in the third grade. I remember Mom telling me; sticks and stones will break my bones; but names will never hurt me. Give me a break !! Are we that thin skinned, that we can't take a little uncensored b.s. As the years pass my testosterone is dwindling, maybe all I have left is a little b.s. Anyway some of the folks on this forum may not be accurate or informative; but many sure give me a chuckle. That alone makes it worth taking a look !! I certainly would not rely solely on this forum when spending big $$$$, or tackling difficult woodworking challenges. However for me it's just another perspective to consider!!! Lighten up a little. It's later than you think.
It's kinda funny how some people are thin skinned and easily offended. I was in my local Costco store yesterday and inquired what happened to the display showing caskets in the store. I was told that many members found it offensive and therefore Costco removed the display from the store. The display is there to show costumers a savings on that product. People must realize that someday they might need this service. We all do sooner or later. My wife always tell me to choose my battles. Some are noty worthy of the time wasted. I can understand why Taunton does not wish to have this site muddied with things that could be liable the company and it's the webmaster's position to remove violators.
Tom
If someone has an issue with a discussion, why not just use the IGNORE option?
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
You guys are cracking me up. This is far better than comedy central !!!!! I think I'll change my bluejeans into something a little dryer.............
Hear hear. I'm planning on getting either the festool guide or an EZ smart, but after seeing the silly dialog that a few were having, I questioned if I really wanted either.
I assume, of course, that we can continue to disparage Taunton employees as long as we have our fingers crossed while typing...
"I questioned if I really wanted either."
Pondfish, it sounds like you could take a look at the Mafell system then for another point of view, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I love Mafell's flexible rail system! Weird, but effective.
Richard,
If the madmen get on to Mafell they will see red, as well as going green-and-black with envy and whatever poison has got into them! (I blame the neocons).
Meanwhile we should all try to follow Philip's sage advice, even though posts not falling into his worthy categories may number in their hundreds.
Just to underline that this is a helpful post, and not the other kind, I will mention that Mafell is an excellent quality brand from Germany, who share at least some of their parts with Festo, as some of their respective tools look identical, except for that red rather than green-black livery.
Mafell are also a tad cheaper for what appears to be the same thing.
Lataxe, a Ypeen.
I made that specific suggestion to the people on the Mafell stand at Harrogate, but they vehemently denied any connection between the respective designs. Rather in the manner perhaps of one tin of Heinz beans being unrelated to another tin, despite appearances.
Mufti,
If the Mafell and Festool items in question were mere metal cylinders (cans) or other simple shape, the Mafell salesmen might persuade us that there is no common genes to a number of their tools. However, it stretches the bounds of credulity to think that a Festool mid sized router (for example) appears identical in its complex shape to a Mafell merely by accident.
In practice, of course, their tools are detailed in various ways that do offer a difference (besides in the colour-scheme) so one wonders why the sales people are so sensitive to the "accusation"? Perhaps they do not want to be associated with the practice of cloning Far East machines by up to a dozen Western resellers, who slap their paint and badge on the identical machine and charge more or less in the market than the other sellers based wholly on their brand name and its cache?
In all events, both Festo and Mafell make excellent tools and the ones I have are certainly worth their price, going by function, build-quality and longevity.
Lataxe, a wary customer.
Quite so, Lataxe, and taking account of the quality of the tools, I am surprised by the reaction to plain questions of this nature.
One company which apparently does not follow the pattern (in my experience) is Hilti. I have used their tools in a workplace and they were held in high regard by users, yet I encounter very little in the way of advertising and published claims to their performance. Perhaps I move in the wrong circles.
Best wishes, David.
Maybe the new motto is "Banners will be violated".
Too funny!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
I think that is a good plan. Success will depend on a rapid and fair response once a violation has been reported. Forward with informative posts, humorous posts, interesting posts, and similar, and down with B/S.
Banning individuals who cause problems is a good idea. However, it's important that you do in fact pinpoint who is causing the problem. Unfortunately, what happens is that an entire discussion, with the positive parts as well as the negative, gets deleted because a couple of individuals turn it into a personal battle. There have been a couple of discussions lately that became contentious, but then were returning to a productive level when they were deleted.
So, I think it's a good idea to watch this kind of behavior, which detracts from the Knots community. But you'll need to police who is actually causing the problem, which is a burden, or you'll have to delete the entire discussion, which is unproductive.
You mention Festool versus EZ Smart, but other subjects churn up lots of personal enmity as well:
- Discussions about SawStop
- Discussions about American vs foreign-made tools
- Discussions about safety regulations
The list goes on. Is Knots really prepared to point the finger squarely at those who cause the problems in a particular discussion, and then ban them?
It's not about contentious discussions or even opposing points of view. I can't say it enough, we fully support that kind of discussion in Knots. It's about personally attacking someone.
If we are alerted to a post in which someone makes a personal attack against another user, we will ban that user from Knots, period. We're not trying to quell discussions on certain topics, we're trying to remove people from the forums who feel that its okay to insult other people.
Matt BergerFine Woodworking
I'm OK with your decision. To me it makes sense and we should be respectful and tolerant of others anyway.Now if the forum software had a bit more room you could add another section deeper in the back behind the Cafe, maybe called the Boxing Ring or the Alley. A place where the combatants could go to rip into each other to their hearts content.;-)
I like your idea; maybe we can even have a dueling range. Where we could actually shoot at our opponents.
Boxing ring !! Great. I think reply via e-mail - only "to:" person above can read it.
would solve a lot of problems.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
<add another section deeper in the back behind the Cafe, maybe called the Boxing Ring or the Alley?>The Fight Club -- really kick some cyber butt
I couldn't agree more with your choice.
I find it amusing that people can get so worked up over what appears on a computer screen. Let's face it - you're arguing with someone on the other side of the country who you will NEVER meet face to face. And if you let that person ruin your day so much that you're hammering out raging posts, with spittle flying from your mouth like a rabid monkey....that's just toooo funny. I imagine you'r the kind of nutjob that is prone to homicidal road rage.
Get a grip - it isn't "real" - it's the internet.
Matt,
You wrote:
"It's not about contentious discussions or even opposing points of view. I can't say it enough, we fully support that kind of discussion in Knots. It's about personally attacking someone."Well, in at at least one recent discussion, the participants were friendly, the contentious points were fading away, and people were coming around to something useful. Then you deleted the entire thing. Either you didn't like the subject matter, or you refused to pinpoint the troublemakers.For your new policy to work, it will be vital for you to pinpoint the troublemakers and remove only their posts, leaving the good parts of the discussion up and running.If you keep on deleting entire discussions because of the actions of the few, your new policy runs the risk of rewarding those who have a personal reason for destroying any talk of tools or concepts they don't like: all they'll need to do is launch some personal attacks, and the whole discussion will be deleted.
Edited 12/5/2006 5:53 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Mathew,
You make a very good point about the injustice of punishing the good along with the bad (by deleting whole threads). Even today, 45 years out of school, I still feel a rankle at that old teacher's trick of punishing a whole class if a single member commited some misdeed or other. The blase injustice of authority.
Not that Mr Berger wishes to hurt us, I suspect - just that it becomes difficult for authorities to justify the singling out of an individual from an unruly crowd. That person will immediately point fingers at their opponents and accuse them of being just as guilty, even if those opponents' response was in fact more measured or within the rules of conduct.
In a society that promotes individualism, there are always folk who will indulge themselves and think it ultra-individualistic. Best to take the mick than to take them seriously.
Lataxe
Easy solution:
BAN the offenders from posting again. Post the banishment on that thread. Leave the post/thread intact so all can see what the cause was, what the punishment is and yet still read the thread.
Sort of like leaving the offender swinging from his/her neck from the tree.... I like it!
Visual capitol punishment was always extremely effective in the old days, maybe it'll clean up the knots!
Jeff
Matt,
One problem you may face is keeping violators out. There are several individuals with multiple screen names who are well acquainted with these sorts of scenarios. You ban one screen name and another pops up piloted by the same miscreant.
The sort of attitude offered by Boardman WI is very destructive, IMHO, to the sense of community FWW has worked hard to build here. I've met you before (last year in Wmsburg) and hope to see you again this year. I can attest to the fact that you are a real person. For my part, I think its beneficial to type as if you are speaking face to face. Those with the multiple identities are essentially hiding behind masks, free to insult or offend with impunity.
My suggestion is that you find a way to crack down on the multiple identities somehow (IP address?) and generally discourage anonymity. One way would be to abandon these screen names and ask folks for real names, locations and real email addresses (not hotmail accounts). On other ww sites, where such things are required, we've seen people finding others in their area and meeting up to the great satisfaction of all. Those sites don't seem to suffer the problems I see on this one.
I hope to see either you or Asa in Wmsburg this year. Part of the fun for me of attending the conference is meeting with woodworkers from around the country, many of whom I first met on the internet.
Adam Cherubini
Adam,
Good point about real identities. I think this is a way to solve a lot of problems. Other forums, where people use their real names, have nowhere near the kinds of personality issues as we see here on Knots.Here on KNots, there have been times when people not only come in with double screen names, but then write to "each other" to create the illusion that two people are on the same side!I had (past tense) two screen names, but that was out of necessity when Knots was having some technical difficulties back on 2000-2001 and lots of people were having screen-name issues. There may be other people who had the same technical difficulties and are left with two or more screen names. So there would have to be a claening up of screen names to make the real-name policiy work.
I do agree that the attitude that we are not actually talking to real people is the root of most of the flame wars that happen on this and other forums. I also agree that requiring us to publicize our real names and contact info would probably clean up most of the few offensive discussions that happen here.
Nevertheless, I refuse to use any forum that requires me to divulge my real name or contact info to the forum at large. It doesn't mean I would ever engage in personal attacks or otherwise intentionally offensive behavior, but the fact is I don't trust absolutely every person in the world with access to the internet.
One last bit; this forum is VERY clean. There are a very few discussions that become useless rants and name calling. I simply mark them as uninteresting and never need see them again. I totally agree with Matt's decision to ban those who engage in personal attacks even though it won't work 100%, but let's not go overboard to solve a problem that is really very minor.To the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
Max,I agree with you. It's true that some forums that use real names do have fewer trolls and flames. On the other hand, in the case of Knots, at least one person of whom I am aware, uses his real name- and is a real troll. He has instigated flames, has hijacked threads in the past, has repeatedly taunted other members and has been banned from time to time. So, at least in this person's case, the use of his real name has not moderated his behavior. In fact, the use of his real name may be part of his histrionic behavior pattern.I don't control Taunton's policy, but my approach would be a private warning, followed by a public warning, followed by being banned if the misconduct continued. I would not underestimate the effect on the general comity of one or two well publicized examples. Was it Churchill who said, "Imminent execution has a wonderful effect on concentrating the mind"?GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 12/6/2006 1:17 pm ET by Glaucon
G,
I think I know the troll of whom you speak; however his behaviour serves as a reference point on the scale delineating the bounds of social behaviour in an Internet discussion forum. Perhaps his poor conduct serves as a lesson to all of us as to just why it is not good to give in to one's less salubrious character traits?
In the end, a self-policing community is better than the heavy hand of a remote authority, who can only exercise a single (and unavoidably partisan) viewpoint in making decisions concerning conduct. As long as Knots is not a mob (and it is far from that) perhaps we can best police ourselves?
I know that if I make an unfortunate faux pas, someone will give me a slap or even a "pitying look" and I will feel chastised and remorseful (after a bit of self-righteous chuntering, perhaps). :-)
No matter how fair Mr Berger might try to be, it is inevitable that any censorious hand he wields will take large swipes - as in deleting a whole thread or banning a usually-decent character for one unusual transgression.
One reason for avoiding real names is that it forces people to consider a post on its merits rather than dismissing it ot swallowing it wholesale because it is associated with a reputation (bad or good) of a known real person. This is less of a problem in an international forum like Knots, perhaps.......
But, as an example, being in awe of Philip Marcou's abilities, I must try hard to disagree with him on principle, even when he is completely right, for fear of sycophancy . This can skew a discussion the other way. I think he needs a nom-de-plume, such as "Ridgeback" or "The Cat", just for me. :-)
Lataxe
Edited 12/6/2006 6:00 pm ET by Lataxe
Glaucon,
As you mentioned, there are people who use their real names who are destructive to several discussions. We may be thinking of the same person, if by "taunts" you mean the person who often makes threats of physical violence.I think that sort of abuse is what we have been discussing here.
Edited 12/10/2006 8:34 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Glaucon,Thank you! I was trying to think of the right words to mention the same dude you've so eloquently described, and (Lo & Behold) you came up with just the right ones!Keep the faith, and keep the powder dry!Regards,Ron (my real name!)
My, MY, this post seems to have turned into exactly what annoys most everyone.
You post a topic and it seems to degenerate into a tirade of blah, blah, blah on everything but the original topic!
Good grief, maybe Taunton should start a chat room!
Where's the Beef?
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
Use whatever tool needed to Git 'r Done!
I don't know....... I am lost. Nothing unusual though! LOL.
Isn't that what the Cafe is for? You have to ask to get there. You are opening yourself up when you enter this "private" club. Must be an exclusive club because you have to ask to enter.
A bantering back and forth has to be with at a minimum two people. So I am going out on a limb and say one of those individuals is complaining. So quit bantering with the individual that causes you ill will. If it is in a particular thread, like political...... Stay out of them if it is too hot. I mean we are all grown adults, aren't we? Hard to believe we can't police our own actions. I know we are not in Break Time, but they have a "jail" sentence for EXTREME violators, of say a month with out posting. They can still read. I don't necessarily agree with that either for the reasons I wrote previously.
Now if something gets out of hand in the other categories I can see where some sort of restraint needs to be done. At that point it needs to be taken to the Cafe for the "legal" bantering to commence.
Just my two cents.......
Semper Fi
"I refuse to use any forum that requires me to divulge my real name or contact info to the forum at large."
Max,
While I appreciate your sentiments and desire for security, in my view, this is the risk we all take to build communities with a sense of accountability. If you don't feel able to accept this risk, you can always lurk. This is not the rule here or anywhere, but I think it should be. The folks with the alises are so destructive, that I feel its worth losing your active participation. Sorry about that.
And BTW, I've been active on the web for many many years, using my real name and real email address and I have a lot of personal information floating around out there. Nothing bad has happened and I've been heartened by that. Maybe your fears of identity theft (or whatever) are baseless.
Adam
Adam,
I enjoy your WW advice greatly but feel you are being rather "definite" to claim that:
"The folks with the aliases are so destructive, that I feel its worth losing your active participation".
As Glaucon has pointed out, some of those who use their real names can be the worst offenders, as they are brazen creatures proud of their cantankery. Even your quote above could be taken as an offense, were one a little sensitive.
There are many folk within Knots using an alias who habitually provide positive, valuable and measured advice and you are wrong to condemn them all from your rather purist moral highground.
Lataxe
Lataxe,I agree with your observations. I think it is pompous for some to declaim that because they have chosen to use their given name, all should follow their "illuminated" example. In my field (medicine), we are constantly being culled for by marketeers, scammers, and one eyed lawyers... using identifiable names and email addresses is not an option.Moreover, I have yet to notice any better standard of conduct amongst those who give their (presumably) real names and those who use a handle. In fact, some of the former apparently are motivated by gaining personal attention, and egotism is a driving force behind their behavior.As for the notion you expressed in an earlier post against the heavy hand of central authority, I would agreeably disagree. Many communities favor self-policing, and it can work to an extent. Unfortunately such utopian ideals can give way to a dystopian reality. The worst elements proliferate, and the good are driven out...(“Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world”) In the end those who stoop to taunting, false accusation, hijacking discussions and obsession will prevail (“The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity.”). I still favor a private warning, a public reprimand and exile. It’s an additional step from the yellow card/red card-sent off rule of the football.
I think I know enough of human nature to maintain that one or two publicized whippings will have the desired effect on the rest of the fifth form.Best,Glaucon(A one time midfielder overly fond of Yeats)If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...Edited 12/7/2006 4:45 pm ET by Glaucon
Edited 12/7/2006 7:29 pm ET by Glaucon
Adam, it is not what you call yourself that matters, it's what others call you to your face or behind your back which calls the tune.
For many years I was George, simply because on starting work someone asked what they should call me. I said "George" and it was never questioned. Fifteen years later my fiancee was pleased to learn my name is David. John David but I never use John except that I cannot stop Taunton Press from using it!
Best wishes, Mufti.
<<Maybe your fears of identity theft (or whatever) are baseless.>>
My fear is not of id theft, and it is based on personal experience.
I used to believe (and behave) as you do. Real name and primary email address made available to all. Then I inadvertantly annoyed someone on a different forum and got a continuous stream of offensive email in my primary email account's inbox. I eventually had to go to the major pain of changing my email address, notifying everyone of the new address, etc, just to avoid this one person (nowadays I would have legal recourse, but it would still be a major pain).
I now use a secondary address that exists JUST for this purpose, it's no big deal if I need to change it.
BTW, thanks for lumping me in with those who cause problems on this forum.
My points:
(1) Requiring real contact info might help, but will not solve the problem.
(2) It's way too expensive for anyone to confirm that the contact info is "real", which significantly reduces the value of this requirement.
(3) In the process, you eliminate from the discussion people who have valid reasons for wanting to stay anonymous.To the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
I'm glad you posted this -- about your unfortunate experience. It is easy enough, from what I understand, for a forum sponsor to track you down through your IP should there be a legal reason to do so. But like you, I am nervous about using real names in a public forum, where any nefarious character can breeze through to collect information. What if, just to take one example, I were such a character, and I was looking to find out where I might find a classic car, a Harley, woodworking equipment, or whatever. If people were compelled to use real names, it would be simple to search through the appropriate forums and locate targets of opportunity. Google will do the rest -- finding out where you live, etc.Farfetched?? Absolutely, but there are a lot of clever/bad dudes out there, and I am interested in staying as far below their radar as I can.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If I were to use my real name, then I could easily be found by my parole officer, the IRS, my 3 illegitimate kids, by two ex wives, the casinos and the drug dealers who I owe money to.
Just kidding!
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Too bad.......about the kidding.Wouda made you the most interesting guy around Knots.............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Here's my argument for the value of anonymity in these forums. Throughout history, communication has been governed, to one extent or another, by position, credentials, etc. People naturally gave more credence to utterings from the lord of the manor than they did to the upstairs maid. When the concept of an internet forum came along, for the very first time, people could say their piece, and the reader could judge the worthiness of the comment based soley on its content and logic -- without regard for the author's status, position, experience, their accumulated degrees/certificates, and the like.I found that atmosphere refreshing, and curiously stimulatiang and interesting. Regular participants in a forum build their reputation within the "community" on what they have to say, rather than what credentials they bring to the table. You, for instance, are a serious and accomplished woodworker, and I would guess that you take some pleasure in seeing your comments being given more weight because of your accomplishments. And there is nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, you might pick a "nom de guerre" and go back to the forums you frequent, as an experiment, to see what the experience is like for you. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Before I let this die, I'd just like to add a few more things:Nikki,
I agree with you 100%. For the record, I only ever discuss my work reluctantly and you'll notice infrequently. I want to share my experience when its applicable, so its really not so easy to be both helpful and tight lipped. All I can tell you is that I'm very sensitive to the issue you raised.Glaucon, Lataxe, Max,You get to think what you want and tho this may sound self-serving (to what benefit I don't know) I think you guys are right and I was wrong. Its not the anonymity but the multiple user names that really bother me. If one of you writes something like "Adam, you don't know what you're talking about", I may well go back a read all of your posts to see why you think that. With the multiple ids you just never know where anyone is coming from. You guys are right. Knowing Max's real name doesn't change anything. MatthewS has pretty much summed up my feelings about the multiple id.s. Adam Cherubini
I have been around Knots for a long time, and I really don't think multiple ID's (or posting names) is a problem. In my memory it has happened only twice; both times these tiresome, irriating individuals had played out their string with one identity, and attempted to wipe the slate clean with a new handle. But in both cases, their style and tactics remained unchanged, and they were "outed" almost immediately. Others have probably done it, but their reasons were benign, and the effect was unnoticeable. In the end, when you look at Knots, I think it is all about communication styles.Most participants come through as intelligent, helpful, genuinely nice people. Some are pontificators, given to absolutes, and testy whenever their "dictims" are questioned, even innocently. And a very few are what I would call rhetorical hotheads, people who take pleasure in inflaming the debate, and then pushing the discussion beyond any reasonable limit. And I would hate to see any of them censored, thrown out, or even voluntarily leave Knots.Why?Because any completely homogeneous group of people is dull as dishwater. Knots is already pretty much a bunch of old white guys, bound together by a common interest in woodworking. The "hotheads" give everybody something to think about, along with responding to the 67th thread so far this year on which TS to buy. I would say they are the spice that makes the stew palatable. And they are what lend Knots a vitality I've not seen in any other wwing forum.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
As a O.W.G. I have the option, if I take umbrage, of deleting my highly informative and illuminating posts from these discussions, thus capping your ruckles.
As far as identities are concerned, there seems to be two sides here as I see it. Unfortunately it seems never the twains shall meet, those for and those against. What does it matter? I don't really care how you choose to represent yourself; what I do care about is your contribution to the topic. I
If anyone should be banned from Knots it should be hijackers of threads. You start a thread for whatever reason, i.e. you need some information, an opinion, guidance, etc. If you have something to share with respect to the topic being discussed; that's what Knots is all about or am I missing something?????
I would like to think that the intent is to provide a vehicle for advancement of all our goals. Embrace the knowledge given, perhaps question it, but never admonish; it's free. We're all trying to improve our skills, right?
C'mon everyone, let's make positive contributions and let the cards fall where they may.
Best regards,
P.S. Happy Holidays to one and all!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
Use whatever tool needed to Git 'r Done!
I agree that having two or more IDs does not, in and of itself, constitute a problem. However, the history does seem to show that the way it plays out is problematic.Someone posted above about being attacked in a discussion by a dozen people represented by just two screen names. I don't know how exact that is, but the point is, people can abuse multiple screen names to give the impression that two or more people are on the same side.So, having a double ID is not necessarily the problem. It's using that ID constructively, as an adult.
Edited 12/10/2006 8:22 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Adam,
While I cannot force anyone else to use their real identity, I agree that the more it becomes the norm the better off the forum will be. Not that I've exactly been hiding, but I'll take this opportunity to change my usual signature.
the old DR
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Perhaps we should put breathalizers on our pcs for the offenders kinda like interloc devices only for coffee intake. I know I drink way too much.
Glad to hear it!
Pete
A couple of years ago I was enrolled in an on-line university, trying to get my bachelors degree before my son got his. The school of course had a forum that was divided into several areas for specific purposes, but mostly everyone just hung out at the “Pub”.
Initially the Pub was open to the general public, but there was so much trouble from students from competing on-line schools that it was eventually closed, except to registered students. Still arguments and personal attacks continued. You would be surprised at what the academic types can argue about. Keep in mind I’m not talking about 19 to 22 year olds. These were mostly mid-career, middle aged people; 35 to 80 year olds!
Eventually the administration grew weary of dealing with the complaints, and one day we logged in to discover that they hadn’t just deleted some threads, they deleted the entire forum! The message said that the forum would return in two weeks. When it did come back on it was a completely monitored / moderated format. Every entry & reply was reviewed before being posted. It could take hours or even until the next day before your post or reply would appear. They still called it the “Pub”, but the spontaneity that made it interesting and fun was gone.
The fact that threads are being deleted and people are being banned from this forum should be a red flag to everyone. It certainly is to me. We can say that people shouldn’t get so upset about comments made, and Taunton shouldn’t feel that things that happen here are a reflection of the company, and that is true. But the fact is, they do and they do. We are all just guests here and we should act accordingly.
Like Yogi Berra once said: "It's deja vue all over again".
-Chuck
Edited 12/6/2006 9:14 pm ET by chuckh
We adopted a dog about three months ago. He's a year and a half and came with more than a few behavior issues. These were bad enough to keep his prior owners (the real culprits) from rescuing him from the stony lonesome themselves. We've been working on these issues and have made great progress. Chief among the techniques we use is to simply ignore him when he wants to raise a fuss and interact with him when he's calm. This basic technique works very well. He's learned that when he behaves he gets to play and he gets treats. Simple.
The moral of this story...... everyone here has the ability to use the ignore button. Those who raise a fuss will go elsewhere if no one responds to their post. I've got four or five individuals on ignore, maybe some others have me on their list. There is no tension among us.
sapwood
I agree with you wholeheartedly on almost all you said. The only problem that still exists that every time a certain topic comes up, it turns into a troll convention. Unfortunately, the same topic is a hot topic in the ever improving world of woodworking. I've personally invested quite a bit into new shop tools from the green company, and am sick and tired of having to read through 200 posts to find 5 that carry some good info., while weeding out the troll dung.
It's not easy to follow a thread when 2/3's of it are on ignore. It would also be wonderful to have an intelligent discussion without the vast legions from both camps destroying it with all the posturing.
I hope Matt's new rules and efforts are successful. If not, I'll be one of the casualties.
Jeff
Every post has a lifespan, let this one die! The people at FWW are good people and this is their website, let them make decisions that affect their company.
<"Every post has a lifespan, let this one die!">The above is an absolutely fool proof way to ensure that a thread will continue ad infinitum.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
What on earth is bothering you about this thread? I don't see anyone thumping on a drum, demanding that Taunton do this or that. We just have a bunch of people exchanging their thoughts and opinions about what goes on around here and why. Sure, the site is owned by Taunton -- lock, stock, and barrel. But does that mean we can't express our opinions on how and why they run things the way they do?Take the University of Michigan, as an example in your own backyard. The state owns the institution, and it is governed by the state's representatives. Would you suggest that the faculty/staff/students must meekly accept every adminstrative pronouncement? Do they not have the right to discuss, argue, debate, and advocate whatever alternative point of view they choose?When you came to Knots tonight, there were probably some 50 active threads. Why did you choose this one? That is a sincere question; and if you choose to answer, it would also be helpful to know exactly why you feel the way you do. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Good Job! I still scan Knots but have ceased posting my work in the gallery after someone called it "Flintstonesque." Now I post my work in other forums where viewers may not like the design, but they are still objective in their remarks. I don't mind if it is called bulky, top-heavy, or other descriptive words. But words that are deliberately disparaging are something than I can do without.
Edited 12/8/2006 6:52 pm by JohnH
I would say that kind of comment was hurtful and completely unnecessary. But one of the problems with internet communication is that people often try to write the same way they might talk in a conversation. Sometimes an attempt to be humorous or ironic just doesn't work, mainly because we can't see the the visual clues that are part of normal face-to-face conversation -- the glint in the eye, facial expressions, hand gestures, and the like. Like you, there have times here when someone said something that got my knickers in a twist, and only later did I realize the remarks were just a lame (and unsuccessul) effort to be humorous.I also believe people writing here tend to be more forthright and blunt than they might be in a verbal conversation. I don't regard that as a bad thing, but I don't think there is anything to be gained in deliberate attempts to be insulting.If one is going to participate in these forums, you need a thick skin. Or at least a thicker skin than you might find necessary in your everyday life. And that's one reason I would speculate there are maybe 10 lurkers to every participant at Knots. And that's unfortunate; but I think it is the nature of the beast (internet forums) rather than the way things are run around here.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"Flintstonesque" sounds like a complement to me! All depends on your POV (and childhood influences) - LOL!
You may be over sensitive.... here there is cafe furniture built from huge thick slabs of Cypress-definitely reminiscent of Foot Rot Flats, but it is popular....A comment like that should not put you off. If you suspect a poster is being abrasive you can always check him out one way or the other.It is also possible that a poster may not have the same command over the English language that you do.
I reckon you should return to Knots.
Hopefully it was not me that used the F word?Philip Marcou
Seems like this thread could have been one post long. Instead it is over 80 posts about nonsense that some of us come to these forums to get away from.
I vote we get back to discussing woodworking.
-Paul
I disagree. If you find this thread tedious or annoying, you are perfectly free not to read it. If others find it more interesting, they can post to it.If you look around carefully, I think you will find other WW forums grappling with the same or similar issues (the role of the moderator, for example). The type of conduct that is appropriate for Knots has been an area of contention and recent debate. Many have strong and differing opinions- and quite different solutions. Most of what has been posted in his thread has been thoughtful and constructive. It is interesting that although Matt Berger began this thread in fairly dramatic style, he has, for the most part, refrained from posting further. That has led to a debate amongst forum participants that is open, wide ranging and healthy. I would bet that Mr. Berger and his colleagues are following this debate, and being informed by it. I believe that they want to correct perceived problems in Knots without resorting to heavy-handed tactics, and taking the temperature of the community is a good way to do it. So my take is that this thread is a very good way for us to provide feedback to them. Since most of us are pretty vocal when they do something we disapprove of, the opportunity to debate and develop consensus is a welcome one, IMHO.Lastly, I don't think this thread is sucking the oxygen out of the room. Plenty of other threads dealing with finishes, power tools and workshop dimensions are posted and debated. So I can't see much downside in continuing to post here.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon, these threads about abusive posters, etc., have been going on periodically in Knots since as long as I've been browsing and posting here, and that takes us back into the latter part of the '90's.
There's a bit of bad feeling gets going. Someone complains to the management. Next thing, the management start a thread about behaviour and how people will get banned. On they go these threads, round and round they come every six or twelve months.
I mostly just yawn and move along. I've surprised even myself here. I paused in my browsing to compose an answer to your post that took a couple or three minutes, ha, ha.
Oh, well. Back to snooping about and waiting for the next pishing contest between a couple of posters, or even a small group to provide some mild amusement for this cynical old git. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Git!!! Git???...Perhaps we could have one room for an argument, another for abuse, another for geting-hit-on-the-head-lessons...and then Matt Berger could appear in officer's togs and tell the lot of us to clear off for being far too silly....Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
glaucon, I think Knots needs a forum (or folder perhap) for specialist serial abusers. For instance, those that think you need three (or more) plane irons, each sharpened at a specific angle for particular wood grain patterns that have be to be inserted in your plane according to the rising of the moon, or some other such nonsense, should be allowed to play in a sand-pit of their own.
Most of us know that a decently sharp plane, at a pretty normal angle, will handle most eventualities. The rest just needs a scraper, or a random orbital sander, ha, ha.
There's far too much pseudo-science and engineering about tools. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
A glass of wine or two, then read a few of these entries; ah, would that be so fine. When I went to High School, anyone who signed -up for a typing class (as it was known then) was taken out behind the school and beaten soundly, typing was for GIRLS. I apologize for all of my abbreviated answers. This is all to say, I appreciate your skills as a rhetorician. It is a delight to read that which is fluid and not overblown with exess verbiage. In spite, that all was better times ago (is not it always) these are enjoyable discourses.
I agree. There really is no need for anybody to be intentionally unpleasant to anyone else.
Frank
Dubh,
You've got a real knack for calling everyone onto the carpet without calling anyone a poo-name. My hat is off to you.Personally, I miss Charles. He hasn't posted much of late, but I'm betting he's still out there keeping an eye out.Hey... re-post that topic about flattening bench tops...... let's see where it goes now. The fesstool and easy guys can duke it out as to who's system can flatten a bench faster and more better. But first they'll have to settle on a jig-attachment.
As a person that has learned not to blame my tools for inferior work, I agree with you. Some people have the inclination and ability(income) to be extremly fussy about their tool and or work. Others just go ahead and do the work with what they have. I don't mind reading some of the discussions, but the reality is is that lots of realy nice stuff is made with less than ideal tool/material, and that to me is way more inportant.
Come on Richard, that was highly predictable coming from you. Arise from your slumbers and provide some fuel for thought, pishing or Goblin bait.I now have this vision of a dozey old git who is bored to death and has seen and heard all there is to hear-is this really the case?Get a grip of yourself , Sire!Philip Marcou
Of course it was predictable, philip. I've seen so many of the pishing contests over the years, it's become old hat. Eight or nine years of watching the same old thing coming around in this forum will do that to you. Oh, jings--- yawn.
It's old hat because every week there are brand new, gagging for information newbies, some been there and done a bit semi-experienced, and some old hand amateurs, plus an odd pro or two.
Then there are-- on top of that-- old farts like me that went around the block about three decades ago with gawd-awful, crusty old barstewards as teachers in real make-money workshops.
All this poncing around over tiddly woodworking ephemera is just a wee bit daft to me. Who gives a rats arse about angles of inclusion or how flat is the back of your chisel? Half the time my planes and chisels are all wrong according to the purists but-- they work. I still cut wood, and I know what I'm doing. I get away with a load of stuff as a woodworker that a mere theorist wouldn't countenance.
Bored? Not a bloody chance mate. I always like to stir the, er, pot to see who rises for the bait.. Slainte
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 12/11/2006 7:03 am by SgianDubh
"amateurs, plus an odd pro or two."
Hey, did you just call me "odd"??!! Mr Berger! Sgian...Richard...slainte, whoever he is---is name-calling! Wahh boo hoo Hurt feelings, over here! Never gave me that hat he promised, either...
Sometimes this forum is like sex with the wife. It makes me so tired, but I keep coming back for more.
call me odd,
Ray Pine, or, joinerswork, just don't call me late for supper
Seriously..... Ez versus Festool? And we have to have a banned notice? I'm a little ashamed to have even started reading the discussion.
The people who perpetuate these types of conversations are real toughies, they even type with their bare hands.
Now where'd those free plans go......
kix,
Hey don't try to suck me into that debate. I don't have a dog in that fight. Just so I don't get a "ban him" notice from Mr Schenker, I'm not even going to mention those gimpy little tracks, circular saws, or especially the name Festool....
...darn!
Ray
p.s. is it really true, that kix are for trids?
Perhaps we shall all get double secret probation... <sigh> "seven years of college down the drain..."Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
<Perhaps we shall all get double secret probation...>I'll deal with double secret probation, but try to tell me that fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son, and we have a huge problem.Regards,
Flounder
Morning Ray...
The question was raised how do you rip and joint an edge on a 2-3" piece of stock accurately? ..... Have table-saws, band-saws and jointers been pulled off the market while I was napping? :>)
I saw both the mentioned systems at the IWF show in Atlanta. Both have great merits if one has to be on a job-site as they are portable. But.. both will take up as much space in a shop when in use as stable fixed machinery that can be counted on not to flex under harsh conditions.So... if I just coudln't' afford or have very limited space.... maybe I would have had a closer look?
But.. with all the baggage that appears to go along with owner-ship of either (X vs Y to the point of screaming) I have gathered by reading these threads... perhaps a good serrated steak knife and a piece of angle aluminum clamped to a table would be a less stress-full and economic approach. Not perfect on the drawing board... but in reality X and Y aren't either as much as a few would like them to be!
"Where have all the flowers gone"............... ?
Regards...
SARGE..
Edited 12/11/2006 10:56 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
STOP IT! (respectfully requested, of course) You are gonna start this thing up all over again.
Heck, what's wrong with a chalk line and a foot adze (or broad-axe) instead of a saw, and a try plane, for making that joint? (that's how I made the 8' long joint in my 6" thick oak bench-top) They're pretty portable too, and very versatile. Always more'n one way to skin a cat.
Ray
When everyone else wanted to be a policeman or fireman when I was young.. I just wanted to be timber framer. But not much need in my area with the rape of the forest land to stack people on top of people in multi family dwellings. No forest here anymore and no real demand for timber-framing as both had diminished before I filled my responsibilities and became available to pursue the dream.. "Where have all the flowers gone"?
But in consolation.. I'm working on a new and improved, do-all, one-step system that in-corporates a chain-saw with one of those veggie-matics duct taped to the south end which will eliminate the middle men and revolutionize the mulch business by getting from forest to garden all in one repeatable pass and on a small tank of gas mixed with 2 cycle oil.
And when I do.. I'm getting my own web-site so you can drop by and talk about using what appears to be those out-dated but still very functional tools you mentioned. :>)
Regards...
SARGE..
If it was one of those "as seen on tv" steak knives you could even cut right through the nails. And since they are guaranteed for life and never dull, think of all the money we could save not buying saw blades!------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
And if you want to "think big", the ultimate TV steak knife could be substituted with a samurai sword and every "kodama" (tree spirit) will been seen scurrying for the nearest safe haven as were talking industrial strenght here! ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE..
It's the coming back for more that makes it all worthwhile, isn't it Ray?
Sorry about the hat-- lack of. From one odd one to another-- I guess. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
"coming back for more that makes it all worthwhile"
Yeah, kinda like how your tongue can't stay away from that broken tooth.
Aw, forget I mentioned the hat, probably wouldn't fit my pointy little head anyhow.
(Can self-deprecation get one banned?)
Thought of you yesterday, briefly- had a couple half-and half's-- Guinness over Harp
Cheers,
Ray
I for one must emphatically deny any improper thoughts or comparisons relating to the former Mrs Pine*, although I do keep visiting the forum.
* I assume she has divorced you after reading those remarks, please convey to her my deepest sympathy and best wishes for a fruitful alimony.
Instead of putting the trolls on ignore let's put the pansies on ignore.
I miss Stanley Niemic.
How do we tell the difference?
If you can't tell the difference that's how you know.
mufti, old bean,
No divorce yet. The long-suffering Mrs Pine remains just that.
Although our relations are often exhausting, nonetheless I confess that I am like the proverbial feline, about which it was said, that "curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought him back".
Regards,
Ray
I appreciate your point of view. I guess we can agree to disagree. Bottom line for me - it should never even have gotten to this point. Yeah, I certainly do skim over a lot of off topic threads. This one has policy changing implications which is why I'm still here.
Thanks,
-Paul
There was a discussion about early woodworking techniques a while back. Questions of the lives and shops and business practices of the workmen were raised. Now I don't say this lightly, but I consider myself at very least knowledgeable about this subject. I contributed facts substantiated with primary source materials and got completely abused by one or two Knots participants with probably a dozen screen names between them. I stuck to my guns and the point- no skin off my nose. But after that, I got several emails from real notables, real experts in the period woodworking field. They said, "that's why I don't post on knots". So that's the problem.Don't think for a second that this thread is off topic or unrelated to the quality of this forum. I think there are a lot of woodworkers, maybe like you, who just want to discuss woodworking here. That's how I feel. But when insults and attacks are the result of every post, it discourages folks from bothering. If FWW is paying attention, they'll crack down on the trolls to encourage wider participation. If they don't, all that will be left will be the trolls. In my opinion, Knots is not far from that now.Simply put, if you love woodworking and want to discuss it on knots, you've got to drive off the trolls even if they don't offend you personally.Adam
Adam, I hope you're not referring to this thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=1492.1
because no one was abusive or disrespectful in it. I and paddyhat (maybe others) were stating our assumptions and intuitions that apprentices and the like would do simpler and and more mundane grunt tasks like stock prep for the masters. I respect that you may well know better and appreciated your contributions to that thread. If those exchanges prompted the e-mails from others you received, they have thin skins indeed.
And I have only one nic here, and always have. Indeed, I've even told you my real name in an e-mail providing you with a site to a magazine article you were interested in.
You may well be referring to another thread that I'm not aware of (if so, please site it as I'd like to see exactly what not to do as well as see your contributions and citations), but the subject matter you described seemed to fit the bill. I guess we had some nerve doing anything but thanking you for the mana. Mea culpa.
Adam
Well said. I think that this thread is completely indicative of the direction that the Knots has turned over the past year.
In the town that I live in, we have a few local bars that folks go to, just like any other town, I suppose. We also have the late night joint, that is completely empty until about 12:30 AM, but when the other places close, this place fills to it's capacity every single night of the week. (The guys on my hockey team are always there.) I found myself there Wednesday night after my poker game, having a cold one with the boys. As I looked around in this establishment, I chuckled, because it wasn't the crowd that I would want to spend any time with at all. At 1:55 AM, as last call was being ushered at the bar, a knife fight broke out, landing 4 in the hospital and 3 in jail. It's all the rage in the local paper.
As I was leaving, I couldn't help but feel the irony of thinking that I was at home, on my computer, in the Knots, watching the trolls do what trolls do.
I have 8 new woodworkers coming to my shop today to get an introduction to working wood with hand tools, including tuning up older tools. I won't tell any of them about this site. I used to reccommend it as a great source of information for newbie's to our craft. Now, I believe it's just a sad little place to watch a knife fight break out.
Sad, isn't it?
Happy Holidays,
Jeff
Adam,
I agree with you and appreciate your point of view. I just find it irritating to see all this energy wasted because people feel the need to be combative in a negative and personal way. What is the point? These forums are loaded with the best crafts people (you included) who are willing to share their knowlege. I hate to see the focus taken off of that.
Thanks,
-Paul
U P
Easily explained. The salty old pro's don't want to come here and talk about woodworking. This type of individual comes here to talk politics, and get a rant on about god knows what. Along the way, they just might answer a question or two about woodworking, if it seeks their fancy, and the moon and Jupiter are aligned just right. My statement about eliminating the trolls earlier in this thread didn't apply to my fellow comrades covered in sawdust. It was more curtailed to the ez vs. festool bs that has been wrecking almost every pseudo-related thread around here for over a year.
Nothing would be finer than to sit down to the screen, crack an Ale, and read up on deforestation vs. the environmental crowd and have a laugh or two, as well as learn a great deal (for me, at least). I don't read much, personally. If I'm not butchering up some beautiful slab of cherry, I'm usually glued to a hockey game, or playing no limit poker till 4:30 in the morning.
I was just simply tired of the 200 post threads between the same 2 or 3 individuals. Now I'm sure I'll get 25 emails about how to use the ignore button. Hilarious.
That's my story, allbeit a crock of bs. But I'm sticking to it.
Jeff
Edited 12/10/2006 1:21 pm ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,
You and I are in total agreement. Such a waste of time and talent all of that BS. I usually read more than I type. Lately I can't stand too much of either. Anyway......
Got any cool projects in the works? Any new toys?
Thanks,
-Paul
Robert,
I couldn't agree more. Why is it that some sensitive souls think that the least questioning of their Great Wisdom is some sort of slight? Or not understood that people can disagree with them without the world ending? Have they not grasped the notion of conversation?
Like you I have visited a few other WW sites and been not just unenlightened but utterly bored. They seem to have about 10 contributors each, who make short little jolly posts to each other (or issue cryptic statements containing unintelligible terms known ony to their clique) with no information content. The only WW site I go to now is this one and it has taught me LOADS.
Would that some of the Great Woodworkers who deign to grace us with their presence now and then could bring themselves to admit they too might learn something via a real dicussion, even if the experience is a bit uncomfortable for them.
As to Knots being full of virtual knife fights - that is not so much a gross exageration as completely inappropriate. Of course, some over-inflated egos may feel a pricking from time to time.....
Lataxe, more of a pixie than a troll.
i'll have to agree with you as well. i've love this forum and have learned so much valuable information that i wouldn't want to be without now. i'm fairly new here and see no reason why other new people wouldn't enjoy learning here with the bickering included. perhaps name calling is a bit much.
all my posted questions have been answered beautifully and i've incorporated many suggestions into my work. it almost seems as though people's sense of humor is supposed to be checked at the door (or keyboard as it were.) if anything here would benefit from improvement, it would only be that. we can learn and have fun too.
Ah, Robert. About 8 or 9 years ago, this place, and Breaktime, around the corner, was all 'Full-Metal-Jacket' stuff.
Nowadays this forum is so tame as to be almost the biggest yawn since 'Love, Actually' was a movie success.
The old protagonists of deep debates on the why and wherefore of woodworking knowledge and techniques have gone. True, they've been replaced by other geeks. But the heated and long running questions about our environmental responsibilities have disappeared into the ether. Nobody argues for those old standards anymore, well not like some people used to.
Now it's all poncy-noncy stuff about guide rails and Festool versus EZSmart. What a yawn. The truth is that both guide rail systems are inferior and second rate in comparison to a a fully equipped workshop, and that's the end of that. I wouldn't give either system space in any workshop I'm involved in. Who could imagine a woodworker piddling about with silly wee hand held saws and floppy guide rails-- and a serious debate on it too, but there ya' go?
Where is Stanley Niemic now? The man was passionate about trees and wood, but, sadly his lucid and vociferous diatribes on our wastefulness as humans are no more.
Did he die? Did he tire of our pathetic grasp on environmental reality? Where is the Stanley that gave Jon Arno so much verbal abuse? Why did Jon always reply courteously to Stanley? What did they know about each other? These small things just make me wonder. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 12/9/2006 7:30 pm by SgianDubh
I wonder also about Stanley, Richard. "Where have all the flowers gone", gone to...... ? Jon and Stanley were classic examples of the "checks and balances" system! ha.. ha...
BTW.. excellent article you did in Wood mag.. Even though not a direct influence on me as the Euro short fence you got me hooked on, but should be very informative for those that just put a sign out in hopes of... well, whatever! Interesting read none the less even for the non-professional.
Regards...
SARGE.. jt atlanta
Now it's all poncy-noncy stuff about guide rails and Festool versus EZSmart. What a yawn. The truth is that both guide rail systems are inferior and second rate in comparison to a a fully equipped workshop, and that's the end of that. I wouldn't give either system space in any workshop I'm involved in. Who could imagine a woodworker piddling about with silly wee hand held saws and floppy guide rails-- and a serious debate on it too, but there ya' go?
Poncy - noncy???
A. How you straight line rip and edge join (to size) a board 2"-3" thick (any length and width)
david.
PS
Woodworking is all about finding a better way and not protecting what we learned.
Richard,
I am suprised to find you once had a hero, being the "barking in the marketplace" cynic that you claim to be. As those heros of yours and their ilk are now (allegedly) gone from this place, perhaps you should take up their banner, instead of sinking into that virtual sofa with yet another bottle of grog and nobbut a sly goad or two? Nor does "bored teenager" mode really go with them grey hairs and saggy bits.
I hope you are not worried that you may have acquired a prickable ego, what with knowing so much about woodwork beyond the ken of we peasants. :-) Or perhaps all this modern WW stuff is a bit much for a chap eying up the fawn-coloured clothes of a pensioner in the M&S window?
Finally, you should not be neglecting your duty to throw your pearls before the swine, as (1) I say so and (2) how else are we ever to become cynical old knowalls like you?
Lataxe, temporarily inhabited by a goad-ghost from the Golden Age of Knots.
Richard,"Now it's all poncy-noncy stuff about guide rails and Festool versus EZSmart. What a yawn. The truth is that both guide rail systems are inferior and second rate in comparison to a a fully equipped workshop, and that's the end of that. I wouldn't give either system space in any workshop I'm involved in. Who could imagine a woodworker piddling about with silly wee hand held saws and floppy guide rails-- and a serious debate on it too, but there ya' go?"Oh, come on, now. THAT's what you are going to get all pishy about?. . . Well, let's completely hijack this thread (it's run its usefulness anyhow . . .Can't change with the technology huh? Someone is going to set up his shop with no table saw at all and turn out fantastic professional-level furniture using EZ Smart systems, slick as you please, with no trouble at all. He'll have data to show eliminating his table saw from the workflow was the most productive change he ever made.That'll larn ya, bloke!Rich
Richard,
Your posts are usually quite enlightening. But I don't understand why you dismiss the whole EZ Smart and Festool discussion out of hand, calling both options "inferior and second rate."Calling anyone's technique "inferior and second rate" is part of the problem we're discussing here. In fact, your comments seem to be a good test of Taunton's new policy: "THIS INCLUDES POSTS THAT TAUNT OTHER USERS INTO USING DISPARAGING COMMENTS."I won't post a disparaging comment here. I'll just say that it would be better for us all to discuss what we like about our own technique without slamming someone else's technique.
Edited 12/10/2006 2:59 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Mathew, Please, for the love of all that is sane. GIVE IT A REST! There is not a single person who has read anything on this site for the last several months who does not know that you are single-mindedly focused on your particular tool system, that you find the need to defend it specicially or generically with a veritable barrage of messages and that you cannot ignore any single reference to the subject, humorous or otherwise. You are predictable, thin-skinned and as of many, many weeks ago, the least likely to foster sympathy for your position. Rich
This discussion is turning into a test of Taunton's new policies. It will be interesting to see how they follow through.Rich's comments:
"you are single-mindedly focused on your particular tool system, that you find the need to defend it specicially or generically with a veritable barrage of messages and that you cannot ignore any single reference to the subject, humorous or otherwise. You are predictable, thin-skinned and as of many, many weeks ago, the least likely to foster sympathy for your position."Taunton's new policy:
ANY KNOTS MEMBER THAT POSTS A DISPARAGING COMMENT ABOUT ANOTHER USER, NO MATTER THE SUBJECT, WILL BE BANNED FROM KNOTS.Any questions?
This is exactly what I mean. Leave it to Matthew to refuse to give the subject a rest and to claim that any comment about his behavior is disparaging. Typical.
Richard,There is no profit in this for you- paying the slightest attention only feeds the beast.Ask yourself: Whose opinion do I respect...M Schenker or R Jones? The notion that one would have the temerity to remonstrate the other is absurd on its face. Their are those on this forum whose opinions are thoughtful, considered and worthy of notice, and others whose opinions (and behavior) are juvenile, tedious and a waste of time. Perhaps we could have a moment of silent eye rolling (surely there must be an imodicon for this)?The only real solution is to ignore the gits... they will tire of seeking attention when none is forthcoming. As my father would say, "a wise man never argues with a fool, a passerby might not appreciate any difference"Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
And around and around we go. . . . . . . . Richard,Having a fair investment in Festool and a well equipped shop I would tend to agree with your statement. The only caveat is that Festool makes my mobile shop superior and first rate ;-)
Enough already...why is this such a hot topic? This sounds like beauty parlor chatter.
Less talk, more building!!!
Post pics on the Gallery....something
:)
Gedaliah Blum
http://www.gedaliahblumfurniture.com
Wow! That was a long discussion about two tools I don't even have in my shop. Been in the business 30 years now I dont think I've ever heard of them. they sound important though , Which one would you recomend. J.K. Stay cool.
This is some of the funniest stuff I've ever read around here!!!!!!!!!!!At least we can all agree that Chevy is better than Ford...
Mumda,
You mean Chevy Chase, vs. Gerald Ford, right? They have both had their comedic moments I suppose. Me I'm more of a Stan and Ollie guy.
What must poor Mr Berger be thinking now, of the monster thread he originated..."Here's another fine mess..."
Ray
This is the most entertaining and informative discussion on knots to date. I hope Taunton will allow it to run and banish no one. I hear Matthew baiting Taunton (? taunting Taunton)to banish his special playmates, but it will be a hollow victory indeed. My specialty is not psychiatry, but interest and some work in that field only heightens the interest of this thread. Oh, yes I do some woodwork (literally made the bed I lie in - and several others), recently purchased the EZ system for panel reduction and appreciate German craftmanship (when I can afford it). Let it roll, this thread is a classic.Best regards,Joe
You can be certain Mr. Shenker has sent an email of complaint to Mr. Berger.So I want to join in your specific comments regarding Mr. Shenker, with the expectation that if he bans you, he will ban me as well. He is the single most disruptive and divisive participant I have seen in this or any other forum. His comments in this thread prove my point.Now Mr. Shenker will be along, no doubt, to make his sanctimonious claim that it is not he, but people like you and I who are divisive. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Just a reminder of Matt Berger's own words, from earlier in this discussion. As you read this, consider some of the things that have been written in the past few posts:"It's not about contentious discussions or even opposing points of view. I can't say it enough, we fully support that kind of discussion in Knots. It's about personally attacking someone. If we are alerted to a post in which someone makes a personal attack against another user, we will ban that user from Knots, period. We're not trying to quell discussions on certain topics, we're trying to remove people from the forums who feel that its okay to insult other people."I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth about what's divisive and personal. I'm done with that. The recent choices made by Glaucon, Nikkiwood, and Rich14 speak for themselves.I'm going to say what I've always said: Taunton should have all the power to control the nature of this forum. They have a set of clear and reasonable rules, and they've made those rules even clearer in this discussion.My question is, will they apply the rules?
Edited 12/10/2006 8:50 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
You have conveniently ignored the most salient sentence in the dictim:THIS INCLUDES POSTS THAT TAUNT OTHER USERS INTO USING DISPARAGING COMMENTS." MBerger 32949.1If your various comments don't constitute "taunting" ---- well, I don't know what would.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I have been follong this thread sence it was erupted froom the bowels of hell, i having lesser comand of the Gueens's Engllish than 99.9999% of everyone else, I love you guyes. in a Manly sort of way. I thought wern sgian Dubh openend up with his keyboard masterpiece i would loose all controle over uraarry[pee myself]. so to get to the point oh yea when responding use littlle words after you yose the biguns that way ill know what you mean and cane learn under fire, as it were.
nothing but respect,Marvin Wallin If everyone was a lot fatter, we would all be closer together!
I won't get into a back and forth on this. But it does seem that Taunton will be banning at least three people as of this morning.
Edited 12/11/2006 8:35 am ET by MatthewSchenker
I would hate to see you guys get banned. The relief from mundane woodworking topics is most welcome. I don't even know what the stuff is that you guys are fighting about, EZ something and Festool something?What's better than watching a pizzing contest between brand-loyal zealots?Watching a pizzing match between drunk brand-loyal zealots.Don't take it outside, let em play. Come 5 o'clock I'm buying.Lee
Yes, Certain individuals just take great pleasure in contributing nothing but dissent. The behavior is known as trolling and is intended to disrupt. Nothing others say gets the offender to stop the behavior, every such entreaty just results in more of the same. I have no doubt the email was posted. What pathetic, irrelevent nonsense this is. Rich
Okay Matthew, I was a little heavy handed on the pot stirring thing, so apologies are extended to you. I've a little experience of the Maffell and the Festool rail systems. Not much, but some. I've none with the EZSmart kit. I've never seen anything EZSmart in the flesh here in the UK.
From what I've seen of the guide rail systems I've looked at they fill a niche. I came to the conclusion that they would be very useful in the absence of a good sliding table saw set up or other panel dimensioning methods. I suspect, for example, they are pretty handy where on-site cabinet building mostly out of sheet goods occurs. In a circumstance like that I can see it's often advantageous to take the tool to the wood as opposed to trying wrestle a large panel over a small saw.
I don't think I'd be easily persuaded to replace a dedicated rip saw with a hand held circular saw to dimension solid wood. I do however really like Maffell and Festool routers. Top notch kit. Again, sorry if you took offence. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
...I've none with the EZSmart kit. I've never seen anything EZSmart in the flesh here in the UK....
...From what I've seen of the guide rail systems I've looked at they fill a niche. I came to the conclusion that they would be very useful in the absence of a good sliding table saw set up or other panel dimensioning methods....
...I don't think I'd be easily persuaded to replace a dedicated rip saw with a hand held circular saw to dimension solid wood....
Only the rip saw?
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/The-ez-Hydra-Tool-System
david
Edited 12/11/2006 10:38 pm ET by davidwood
Dino is the master of producing confusing and unintelligible demonstration materials. I couldn't make hide nor hair of the link..............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Dino is the master of producing confusing and unintelligible demonstration materials.
I couldn't make hide nor hair of the link..............
One board, 3 rails and 4 tools working together.
One planer - 2 routers and one circular saw.
4 operations in one pass.
david.
David, with a sliding table saw, dedicated rip saw, two 20" surface planers, two 20" thickness planers, radial arm saw, spindle moulder, single end tenoner, overhead router, CNC equipment, 36" oscillating thickness sander, three bandsaws, and a few other bits of plant for working wood, I'd say it seems unlikely that I'll buy a hand held circular saw and some guide rails to process either solid wood or man made boards. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
It's Taunton's rules. They were pretty clear about what constitutes breaking the rules in post #1 of this discussion. In this very discussion, those same rules have certainly been broken, multiple times by the same people.
The question is, will Taunton enforce their rules or not?
I don't like to see people banned either. But it's worse to announce rules, then not apply them, or apply them sometimes but not other times.
Cripes Matthew, you're like a little kid jumping up and down pulling on your mother's apron insisting she holler at your little sister.Holler at me for a while,Lee
I think the personal stuff is what Taunton is trying to avoid. It's what I would like to avoid as well.I'm just wondering how Taunton will respond to the fact that their own rules have now been broken several times in this discussion.No matter how you and others taunt me about what I've said here, I think we can agree on one thing: Taunton did lay down a set of rules. They aren't my rules, so please don't hold me responsible for them.As for interpretations of who has broken the rules, I trust that Taunton will be able to judge fairly what has occurred here.
Edited 12/11/2006 2:30 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
This is not a prelude to a World War, and Taunton is not a government agency.
This is just an online forum, a place for entertainment and diversion, like almost all online forums.
Taunton has every logical reason to ask for a certain atmosphere in their forum. Rules for proper behavior here do not have ethnic, spiritual, or racial repurcussions.
amen to banning no one! i personally would hate to be without the advice given here. let's hope that cooler heads prevail and everyone continues to participate. we are grown men (and women) here.
No, I'm not missing the point.
The history of the poem you cited relates to highly charged statements about terrible atrocities committed by government agencies. You used it here in this discussion to make a connection between those atrocities and the banning of people from a woodworking forum.
My response was to say that there is no comparison between the two.
If you had a different reason for quoting that particular poem in this context, please explain.
The message of the quote is that one must speak up for others' rights even when one's own rights are not directly and immediately affected. Not only is a society where the rights of others are not upheld a poor society in which to live, but before long your own rights will likely be taken as well. The fact that the original was inspired by a dictator's heinous actions in a terrible war does not make the sentiment any less true or somehow inapplicable in the more benign microcosm of society called an internet woodworker's forum.
Samson,
Your post makes my point exactly. This is an online forum, and the rules are just a publisher's wishes, not a prelude to dictatorship.This is not the place to be discussing how our rights are being taken and how "your own rights will likely be taken as well." Nor is it the place to be discussing a "dictator's heinous actions."This is a woodworking forum, with rules that the owners wish to see followed. They are trying to create a certain atmosphere, and it is their right to do so.Using a poem like the one Robert1 quoted is highly charged, and carries specific connotations that are just not relevant to this discussion. Neither are the great civil rights struggles relevant to this discussion.The question for me, again, is whether or not Taunton will put some teeth to their rules.
Edited 12/11/2006 11:04 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Matt, methinks a notice of banishment is what you're hoping for under your Christmas tree this year.
Life's too short to get your panties in a wad over this. Why not look for a new woodworking tool instead of using your taunting press?
Matt, Taunton can, of course, do whatever they want. And Robert's points here are not necessarily mine. You seemed to be having trouble comprehending how the quote could be applicable here - to appreciate concepts like thesis and analogy - and instead insisted on grasping at the literal context of the original piece and further disingenuously(?) asserting that a literal comparison was being made between those historical events and the governence of this forum. I took you at face value and tried to explain in simple terms how the thesis could be appropriately raised here. Robert fears the "owners" may become too heavy handed. The "owners" are by definition dictators, benign as they may be. This is not a democracy; you and I were not asked to vote on this new rule, for example. I think Robert might agree that, as with our First Amendment, if the price of the liberty is having to tolerate unpleasant utterances, so be it. Ultimately, the question is whether the abusers can be excised perfectly by the "owners" without inflicting collateral damage on the healthy tissue.
And in the end, can kindness be legislated?
<<"I think Robert might agree that, as with our First Amendment, if the price of the liberty is having to tolerate unpleasant utterances, so be it. ">>I concur that tolerating "unpleasant utterances" is part of the deal. But I think you would also agree that we should not be forced to meekly submit to such utterances in silence. If Mr. Shenker has his way, he will be allowed to proceed along his merry, inflamatory path --- and any of us that speaks out against his rhetorical tactics will be tossed out of Knots.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hey, nik.
I concur that tolerating "unpleasant utterances" is part of the deal. But I think you would also agree that we should not be forced to meekly submit to such utterances in silence.
Of course I agree. To continue the First Amendment analogy, just as demonstraters are permitted to counter demonstrate at a Klan march, and both sides of the abortion debate get their say, etc., the "unpleasant utterances" can surely be challenged. That's the point after all: everyone gets their say. That said, we also have laws that make sure no sticks and stones, but only words are hurled. In much the same way, Mr. Berger is saying debate and disagree all you like, but ad hominem (("against the person" instead of their points) will be considered a "stick or stone" so to speak.
If Mr. Shenker has his way, he will be allowed to proceed along his merry, inflamatory path --- and any of us that speaks out against his rhetorical tactics will be tossed out of Knots.
Forgive me, but I think you give Mr. Shenker too much credit as a rhetorician. Moreover, there are many strategies for dealing with provacative statements short of calling the utterer names.
Cheers.
This is a tool forum. It is not an instrument of the government or an agency with power over your life. Nothing that Taunton does can be seen, literally or metaphorically, as having anything to do with the threats outlined in the poem Robert1 quoted.But quoting the poem does reveal confusion about the basic ideas of censorship, First Amendment rights, democracy, free speech, and so forth.
Edited 12/12/2006 1:28 am ET by MatthewSchenker
This is a tool forum. No, this is a woodworking forum. Tools, however popular their discussion is, is only one part of this forum.
But quoting the poem does reveal confusion about the basic ideas of censorship, First Amendment rights, democracy, free speech, and so forth. Confusion has most certainly been revealed but it is not Samson who is confused.
Since this is a woodworking forum why don't you post some of your projects?
Ben
Come on!!! Then he'd have to take those tools out of their shiny boxes, and they look so good stacked up in the corner.....
Good read! You must play poker...
Happy Holidays,
Jeff
And now for something completely different:The Festool-EZ System sketch (with apologies to Michael Palin and John Cleese)M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument... Festool is better than the EZ system?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a 200 post argument or the 1000 post special?
M: Oh, just the 200 post.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the 200 posts are up.
M: That was never 200 posts!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.
Pause
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another 200 posts.
M: Yes, but that was never 200 posts, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn't really 200 posts, just now.
A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn't.
M: I DID!
A: No you didn't.
M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn't pay.
M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven't.
M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I've had enough of this.
A: No you haven't.
M: Oh Shut up. You’re banned. Meeting adjourned forever.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Your inability to see the present relevance of the Niemoller poem to this discussion is both sad and pathetic. But at the same time, it is not surprising, given your penchant for seeing what you want to see through your specially constructed prism.Let me try to explain it to you. First, the Niemoller poem is about apathy -- and a person's responsibility to speak out, even when not directly affected. The sentiments he expressed do not relate just to the large cosmic issues of the world. In fact I would argue it is even more important that each of us, as individuals, stand up and speak out within whatever groups we are part of whenever we encounter some action or behavior that we consider offensive and/or inappropriate. Second, for a very long time you have been striding about this forum proselytizing for Festool in a way that I would describe as both tiresome and divisive. While doing so, your rhetoric is filled with sanctimonious posturing and an odious piety. When faced with anyone who disagrees with your point of view, your favorite tactic is to belittle that person and offer up an array of taunting remarks.For me, the irony is that I probably have as much (and maybe more) invested in Festool products as you do. You cannot say, therefore, that I am an EZ user who feels wounded because you have "dissed" my chosen CGSS. So, taking my cue from Niemoller, I have raised my piddly little voice in this piddly little forum to protest your conduct. I take offense at the manner in which you conduct yourself around Knots, and the fact you never accept any responsibility for these rehetorical conflagrations that follow you from thread to thread. If opposing your behavior gets me kicked out of Knots, I will take some piddly solace in believing that I did the right thing.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I think the biggest problem in these pizzing matches is that up until now there has been no clear winner or loser.I think we need to score these posts so that at the end of, say, ten posts each we could declare a clear winner.So, verbiage= 10 pointsuccinctness= 10 pointson topicness= 10 pointscleverness= 10 pointsUmmm, I'll need more criteria..,,Oh, and judges must have had at least 3 pints.So, let the games begin, ten rounds, Knotheads rules, "****" does not count, no hitting below the belt, no obscenities, no familial references and a tie is broken by a drinking contest.Lee
There must be a high school debate coach around here..........No, wait........... Since Mr. Berger is the one with the power of banishment, I guess he da judge.......does that mean he gets the pints?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 12/12/2006 12:19 am by nikkiwood
"If opposing your behavior gets me kicked out of Knots, I will take some piddly solace in believing that I did the right thing."Yes you did.Not that you have done anything to fear getting "kicked out of Knots."It's a shame, though. Your eloquence has been wasted on Matthew. Whether he underdstasnds or not, he will reply with more of his offensive natterings. If he had the ability to understand you in the firt place, the situation would never have reached this point.Rich
Nikkiwood:"given your penchant for seeing what you want to see through your specially constructed prism"Doesn't your statement above go to the heart of the problem? Aren't we all a series of specially constructed prisms? Isn't this part of the human condition?
How do I know that my world view is saner or more rational or better than yours?"In fact I would argue it is even more important that each of us, as individuals, stand up and speak out within whatever groups we are part of whenever we encounter some action or behavior that we consider offensive and/or inappropriate"If you accept point one above, then what constitutes offensive and inappropriate? It is, by definition arbitrary. However, it is important that we stand up and speak out against things that are wrong, such as the indiscriminate killing of one group by another (Dhafur). In a civil and moral society, wrong becomes much easier to identify than offensive behavior.Recently, Michael Richards (comedian) was offensive to many, unfortunately probably not all; but, by the standards of a civil society his tirade was just plain wrong!Cordially,Hastings
But what would the winner get? Would it be an olive wreath or a golden scepter? Could I have a parade?
to venture a guess as to the winning prize based on the post.... a jar of martini olives seems more likely than an olive wreath. perhaps a bowl of peanuts to go with the judge's pints.
All that can be said has been said. This discussion is closed.
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