i am looking to buy a jointing plane like the lie Nielsen #7 or #8 or the veritas jointer. which is the best? use will be for jointing and flattening table tops etc. this will be used in conjunction with a jack plane.
Edited 12/8/2009 10:40 pm ET by jlfromtn
Replies
The answer is up to you. They're both fine tools, it's a matter of which has the details you prefer and, ultimately, which one is more comfortable in your hand.
The most important difference is the adjuster mechanism. I suggest you try them both out and go from there....
J,
Which jointer planes are best, LV or LN? and #7 or #8?
Well, Lee Valley only has a #7 with the Bevel Up.
Lie Nielsen has both a #7 and a #8, and they have a Bevel up #7.
Derek Cohen has explained Bevel up versus Bevel Down a number of times here on Knots and you can look it up elsewhere on the web. He likes Bevel UP. Christopher Schwartz likes bevel down.
Then there is the question of a smaller #7 or a larger #8. Rob Cosman likes the bigger #8. With size, you have momentum on your side. Lie Nielsen sells a lot more 7s than 8s.
The answer to your question of which is best for you can only be answered by you trying them all. If you are very wealthy, buy em all, try em out and throw the ones that you don't want away. If you of moderate means, GO SLOW. If there is a woodworking club nearby, join it, and ask someone who has one of those planes if you can try it. That is a good way to start learning. If not, then buy a used 7 or 8 Stanley on Ebay. You can get them pretty cheaply. It will take some time to learn to fettle them (get em in shape) and then try it for a while. You will have learned a lot
You asked a complex question. There are no answers, only religions. Some pray to LV, some to LN. Some buy old Stanleys. Some buy old Woodies. Of course, you could make your own plane, Derek made a very long jointer. It is a beauty. There are excellent books and other resources on making your own planes. It is not all that hard, and you learn a lot.
Bottom line, what I did to get started with a jointer, was to buy an old Stanley #7. Recently, I ordered a Lie Nielsen #8. But only after I got some years of experience with the 7.
One nice thing about Lie Nielsen can be seen on Ebay. Even well used LNs often sell for close to new retail price on EBay. LN has a real following. I am not sure why. Their designs are more traditional than LV, which is more innovative. There is no answer to which is better. They are both fine. Any jointer you buy will work fine, once you get the skills. You gotta remember: all those antiques that sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars, were built using planes that were wooden, and not nearly as good as either LN or LVs planes now (or at least, they are much more difficult to learn to use). So, in a way, you can think of anything that LN or LV makes as overkill.
Besides the added heft of a BD plane, they can be adjusted while you are actually planing. With a BU plane, you gotta stop and make the adjustment. On the other hand, they have advantages that BD don't.
Don't worry about it. Get anything and practice. Given that you don't have experience with them, it will take you a while to learn how to use whatever you get. HAVE FUN. MAKE STUFF. Don't worry about what someone says is Best, because it is only best in their eyes. there are as many opinions as there are woodworkers.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel's advice about maybe initially buying an old Stanley on eBay is a pure gold. Not only will you save money, but you will have a tool that you are not afraid to alter or harm cosmetically, as you might be with a new L-N. Also, the old irons are much easier to sharpen. I have bought Hock irons to replace those in some old Stanley planes, but in retrospect I'm not sure I would even do that again because of the ease of sharpening the old irons. You can get them extremely sharp and most of them hold an edge very well.
I have several cherished L-Ns that I have been given as Christmas presents over the years, but on a day to day basis my old Stanleys probably see more use. I have a 9 1/2 and a No. 5 with a corregated sole (both with original blades) that work so well I wouldn't swap them for L-Ns! I will admit that both or them required a little fettling, but nothing anyone couldn't do in a couple of hours.
Dan
Furndr,
Thanks for the nice words on having the OP get an old Stanley. It worked for you, for me and for countless others. Like you, I have some nice LNs, but I still use the Stanleys too.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Very nice post, Mel. I'm not interested in that issue but it was a pleasure to read your comments.JerryFrosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Jerry,
Thank you for the nice words on my advice to the OP on buying a plane. Coming from you, it is a real compliment. I came to the conclusion a while back that a set of woodies is all you really need. However, I have not gained the necessary skills with them to really make them sing. I bought and fettled a bunch of old Stanleys, and I believe that very few people "need" better planes than well fettled Stanleys. It is much easier to gain planing skills with the Stanleys than with the woodies. Now I have some LNs. No doubt about it, they are nicer to use than the Stanleys, and they do a great job, BUT the initial cost is much higher. Have fun, Thank you for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
jlfromtn:
Mel said it very well, in that there are differences in both brands and either one will be a fine tool. You will have to decide for yourself which one you like the feel of better, other than the way they feel in your hand the blade adjustment is where they differ I have mostly Lee Valley planes but also have a few Lie Nielsen planes and like them both, but I personally like the blade adjustment on the Veritas planes better, the Lie Nielsen's are prettier to look at. Well I'm sure this won't answer your question for you, but it may give something to think about.
Mike
Don't put too much faith in the manufacturer. Unless you learn to sharpen the iron properly, even the best plane won't give good results. Don't get me wrong, I have several LNs and love them. But a good quality "sharp" iron is key. I have a #7 Record that I bought new 25+ years ago and it worked pretty well. A few years ago, I bought a Hock blade for it and it made a world of difference. I also have a vintage #4 Bailey that I also added a Hock blade to. I can get just as good of results (or almost as good) with it as my #4 LN. I have made a couple of wooden planes with a good quality, heavy irons and get very good results with it.
No doubt starting with a good tool is beneficial, but knowing how use and sharpen are more critical.
I usually try to talk people out of buying these monsters. Nice to look at though.
So this time I will just say it is easy . . . buy both BU and BD.
But what ever you do get a big monster straight edge because you are going to need that more than a long plane.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I have a 5' Starrett straight edge. Will that do? ;-)
NICE !Getting pretty heavy when that long.I forget, are you a hand jointer plane man ? Or use the Starrett for the power tools ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
The extra weight helps when I need to whump myself up side the head for straying from the, uh, straight and narrow. ;-)I use both an old Record #7 and an Inca jointer/planer combo. I also use another old Record #4 for smoothing, but my neighbor woodworking pal and his wife gave me a lovely bronze LN #4. I haven't stopped fondling it long enough to finish sharpening the iron, though.
Ralph,
Ouch, BIG BIG $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
As soon as you said, Starrett, I could hear the cash register going "ca ching". Don't get me wrong I love their tools. They are just so pricey.
As a matter of fact I need a straight edge like yours. I'm just afraid to find out how long it will take to save up for it.
As far as the ? of Veritas vs. Lie Nielsen, I don't think you can find a true winner. All the planes in question are all top shelf.
That is kind of like asking what's better a Blond or a Brunette. I know the answer, but I also know when to keep shut up. That way i can live to fight another day.
Taigert
I bought a 50" Veritas aluminum straight edge. While only accurate to 3 mils, it's a heck of a lot less expensive than the Starrett. More than good enough for getting my jointer beds aligned.
I've never had any problem with any thing I have from Veritas. Their great tools in my books.
Taigert
Agreed. Not only that, but most of their products are a good value too.
I am in a cantankerous mood so am going to comment.Well there is top shelf and there is top shelf see pic $10,000 ( yes four zeros )>Pricy Starrett<I am going on about twenty five years with this one. comes out to about ten dollars a year and getting cheeper all the time !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 12/9/2009 11:20 pm by roc
Roc,
Oops' Stroked someone's fur in the wrong direction.
There are definitely more expensive Planes available for those that are lucky enough coin to be able to obtain these beautiful pieces of art.
I guess the way I should have worded my comment, is "for those of us that fund our wood working on a limited budget" .......................
Starrett Tools are Great tools! If you break down the cost, over the number of years of use you will get out a Starrett Tool the cost per year would be next to nothing. Starrett tools are so well made you'll be leaving them behind for your future generations.
You know to be totally honest, I guess my mind blanks out those tools are so far out of my reach. I keep my desires in check, by putting the Veritas, LV, LN & Cliffton on my top shelf.
So Roc, how bad sis the Blizzard hit your area, I heard you guys got hit pretty hard. The news out of Indianapolis & Cincinnati have been building it up all week. Today was just rain and some wind no where near the what was happening a hour north of us.
Thank You for the reality check.
I really feel the need to qualify your statement about Starrett Tools. I too own several Starretts. It has been my experience that their machinists tools are worth every penny. But their tools for woodworkers are not in the same league. Now I must admit that my opinion is based on only two examples, but both items are junk.
I have a Starrett carpenters square that has a twist in the body. Since the steel has been tempered that twist is permanent. Another item, the 12" bevel gauge, one side will read accurately, but not the other. And damn if I can reliably remember which one to believe. Both items were pretty expensive, more so as they are useless. Bought them both via mailorder, don't really spending more money for something that I already spent alot for.
Edited 12/10/2009 2:41 am by BigK
> two examples, but both items are junk.<May be time to get on the phone to Starrett. They may, just probably, do something about that. I just had a great experience with a company trying to make good and do right by their customer. We were honest with them and didn't get angry on the phone when they acted indifferent and they overnighted what we needed without even saying they would after we discovered they basically fulfilled the agreement to start with and we were in error.I have my fingers crossed for you.If not don't be afraid to put that carpenters square in the vise and twist it flat with a long hunk of wood clamped to the other end. Go way past center and let it spring back to flat. What can it hurt ? It is already useless. Use big wood and clamps and get western with it.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 12/10/2009 4:46 am by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 12/10/2009 4:50 am by roc
I may just try to talk with Starrett and see what happens. Also like your idea about putting Square in vise and a long piece of 2x4, I know that hand bending didn't do a thing to it. The twist runs from low inside corner to high outer corner, sort of a tangenital orientation.
One Starret carpenter tool that works really well are their rafter/stair gages. You set them exactly on the rise & run, whereas with the "button" type, you have to experiment.
Edited 12/11/2009 8:07 pm ET by Tony Z
Tony,
I am real glad to hear that something from their woodworking tools actually works. My prejudice was based on two examples, but I do have many of their machinist's tools and they are spot on. I am planning on talking with Starrett about my experience to see if they will actually stand behind their tools. Trust me, if they do not, I will be fairly quick to crucify them here.
I get a lot of catalogs, but buy very little: maybe a single small order from each per year to keep the catalogs coming! The Starret gages I mentioned I first saw and used in the mid-seventies and they are still available unchanged. However, in looking at many of the current offerings, I see a lot of "trinket" and "jee-whiz" qualities.
T.Z.
Gee-whiz and Trinkets. Both very accurate descriptives for a lot of the offerings. However my favorites are the latest/greatest that are supposed to save time, make previously difficult tasks almost effortless, and improve your quality of work. The descriptive captions make it sound like you can't possibly survive without this "wonder". They must be magic or something.
Don't forget that it's possible that the "Starrett" tools you bought online are actually counterfeits. When you talk to Starrett customer service, it would be good to have the name of the vendor from which you purchased the items, so they can verify whether that vendor is actually a Starrett dealer. If the items you bought are indeed counterfeits, I wouldn't expect Starrett to stand behind them.
Point taken. If there is any doubt about the validity of these tools then Starrett should have a look at them as they should recognize their tools as vs. knockoffs.
>how bad sis the Blizzard hit your area, <Well right where I am at the foot of Pikes Peak, purple mountains majesty (where she actually wrote the song ) it is no blizzard. Just a few inches of snow. Normal stuff or less for this time of year.The temp is a bit lower than norm though. I rode the bike to work monday and tue. no big deal. About zero to ten above both days during the rides. I missed the wind so that was a blessing. I like riding in winter for the challenge but can do without forty mile an hour wind at zero degrees.My old light system stopped working so that has been a bit of a distraction. I cobbled it together from a twelve volt bike system and I use a DeWalt drill battery in the bike bags via a wire from bag to head light so it stays warm.Takes a THREADED twelve volt halogen bulb and it burned out and can't find a replacement. I been looking at other systems but I am addicted to recharge in less than an hour. ( none of the modern bike lights are twelve volt. They are like 7.3 volt ). The best bike systems still take three hours or so to charge. Three hundred dollar bike lights ! Can you imagine. It is possible to pay six hundred dollars for a bike light.http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=8&description=Seca+900+Race+LED&vendorCode=LIGHTNMO&major=3&minor=6Still doesn't charge as fast as my twelve year old DeWalt lantern/drill batteries. Nor have as useful a pattern on the road as the DeWalt.I had a helmet mount light for back up with LED and penlight batteries. Very nice German light plenty bright. The cold ate it for a snack. Didn't last a few blocks and too cold to run. Came back when warm again !I grabbed the old DeWalt lanternhttp://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-12-Volt-Pivoting-Flashlight-Battery/dp/B0000222ZO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1260439921&sr=1-1ran some electrical tape around it and the handlebars and off we went no problem. I like the light better than the fancy bike lights just a question of mounting it. With the tape it kind of shines in the trees over head.: )I had today, Wed off. Was like twenty three bellow zero last night. Is a balmy three above now at three in the morning, (fell asleep on the couch and just woke up to go to bed) so no worries now.Oops . . . I bet that was more info than you bargained for. But that is my report from the blizzard zone.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 12/10/2009 5:33 am by roc
Hi roc>The temp is a bit lower than norm though. I rode the bike to work monday and tue. no big deal. About zero to ten above both days during the rides. I missed the wind so that was a blessing. I like riding in winter for the challenge but can do without forty mile an hour wind at zero degrees.<Sounds like down here only its almost mid summer. Last week we had 80kph winds and the realfeel was -8degrees c. The world is definately getting cooler!!Just an aside, I know you are an Apple bloke, what do you know and think of Aperture 2? Thinking of investing. Would appreciate your opinion.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
>Aperture 2<Sounds like a camera application. You have done it ! Congradulations! You have struck one of the MANY subjects I know nothing what so ever about ( cameras ) and so can not prattle on endlessly.So you have shut me up.Here is a source for info.http://twit.tv/mbwLook for :MacBreak Weekly 77: Fries DonerocPS: wouldn't let me link to the exact episode.Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 12/12/2009 12:36 am by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->Edited 12/12/2009 12:38 am by roc <!-- ROC2013 -->
Edited 12/12/2009 12:40 am by roc
Sorry roc that post was meant to be an e-mail.I am devastated that I had to be the one to expose that you really have feet of clay.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
You know the problem that BigK is having with his "Starrett" tools sound likes some thing I came across a few years back. I used to work part time while attending school, for that big woodworking supply company that competes with Woodcraft. They have a fair way of treating customers, basically the customer is right 99.9% of the time. Some one brought a Starrett Three Head Combination Square (it has the centering 90, protractor, and the 90/45 combination) back due to being unhappy with it. He was only able to exchange it for another one of the same, due to no receipt. It ended up going back to Starrett for a credit. We found out later that it was a counterfeit. Turns out they get sold over the Internet. Unless you know what your looking for you would have a really hard time telling the difference between the Genuine "Starrett" and the fake.
By the sounds of what BigK is describing I would suspect the Pedigree of the tool. I have not heard of any one other than the one our store took back having any real complaints about Starrett. It's for sure I would be in touch with Starrett, if the source it was purchased from won't stand behind it.
The Blizzard of 09
Well it was a disappointment after all the Hype on the news. The wind turned out to be about 45 or 50 mph, gusting to the mid sixty's. The only snow we got was just enough to leave a good dusting on the roads. And about a 1/2' on lawns. But the temp dropped to 15 degrees above Zero. At 7:00 am yesterday it was 48 degrees and by 11:00 am it had dropped to 30. I guess we were on the southern edge of the snow. If you can trust the news on TV, they are saying that up state they are getting a good blast of what they call "Lake Effect" snow that was blowing pretty hard, it didn't look like what I would call a Blizzard. The temps are supposed to start back up after today. Around here in SE Indiana it's Jan & Feb when the snow typically hits. At least that's what everyone tells me, I've only lived here for a year now so I've seen half of a winter. My wife grew up here, and she says it's really different now compared to what it was like when she was younger. She says the weather in the winter is a lot milder now. The two biggest biggest hazards here this time of year are ice on the roads & DEER.
I moved into my new shop three weeks ago. The building used to be a movie theater going back to the early 1900's. Well the main floor is sort of divided into four area's what used to be the area where the tickets were sold (box office) & the concession stand is now a couple of offices and a open area we are going to make into a show room. The area where people would be seated, is now the shop. It is a nice size for a shop at about 4000 sqft.of wood floor. Then the area which would be behind the curtain is now storage and my finishing area. Then there is a residence built upstairs in what used to be the projection room and offices. It's sort of like what you could call a Loft, I guess it a little over 2000 sqft. So we are now living up there.
Point being we have electric heat in the residence and offices/showroom. The shop area has a gas unit heater that hangs from the ceiling. So far I haven't even run the shop heat. I don't care for a really warm area to work in. Once you get moving around its comfortable, but if your just doing light work you would want a sweater or something light on.
I really didn't mean to write another chapter to that book I seem to be writing, Sorry
Have a good day off,
Taigert
Edited 12/10/2009 9:22 am ET by Taigert
I've got Starrett and Mitutoyo combination squares and a B&S 6 inch dial caliper (my old Stanley vernier got too hard to read).Best money I've spent, but check pawn shops and E-bay, they're a lot less expensive there.One of the things I like about the combo squares is the different scales that are available, I usually use the 8th/16th/32nd/64th one but I have an aircraft scale also, in 32nds/64ths and /50ths/100ths.Leon
Roc,
I agree! My jointer is a $5.00 garage sale Bailey with a Hock blade. It's sole use is flattening my workbench top every 5 years or so...The "worker bee" is a LN low-angle smoother.
I have bought a few old stanley/bailey planes from ebay. You never really know what the condition of the bottom of the plane will be. It can take quite some time to flatten them to usable condition. I would suggest checking out the antique, or junk shops in your area. I just picked up a Bailey #7 for $5, that other than a little rust, is in pretty good condition.
Either or. I have both in the smaller planes and I prefer the feel of LN, but both perform equally.
Nothing wrong with an old Stanley though. Look for one on E-bay, and get a Bedrock if you can. tune it up well and replace the blade & breaker with a Clifton set, and you've got something in league with the LN or Veritas.
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