I’m trying to decide on a new jack plane & possible another block plane (e.g. maybe the new Lie-Nielsen rabbit block plane). I have read very good things about Veritas planes & recently borrowed a friend’s Veritas 5 1/4 bench plane & was quite impressed. Everyone raves about Lie-Nielsen planes but they are considerably more – are they worth it?
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Replies
"are they worth it?"
I couldn't say. I've never owned a Lie Nielsen. I've used for a small bit of time and wasn't impressed over my Veritas planes.
On another note - you may want to investigate the low angle plane route and then get a few different irons. bevel some at steeper angles to get equivalent of standard bench plane or high angle planes as suits your needs.
Both Veritas and Lie Nielsen suggest this as a very viable route to take.
Frank
I have tested LN's at Highland Hardware and I gambled on the Veritas for the price on my first high quality plane. That was without having used a Veritas. Got the Veritas #4 1/2. Since that one I have the Veritas low-angle smoother (which has a 38 degree up-bevel blade optionally available at $21 an A-2 to give a York pitch), a Veritas #6, a Veritas scrap plane, and their medium shoulder which I feel is the best shoulder plane I have ever used.
The LN has great quality and machining is superb. But so does the Veritas. You do have to hone the Veritas A-2 iron, but that's not a $100 + experience. The LN is a up-grade of the original Bailey bed-rock design. I prefer the Veritas as the entire frog and base moves forward or rear to close the throat. The Veritas also has set-screws on each side of the iron to keep lateral movement fixed once adjusted. One single adjuster gets lateral and depth adjustment.
The big difference is design and price. The quality is good on both counts. Good luck with your decision.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/1/2004 12:53 pm ET by SARGE
Frank,
It seems to me you've answered your own question. If you really liked the Veritas Jack plane....why wouldn't you decide to buy that one? I've only got old Stanleys that I have tuned and re-tuned over the past two years. My #5 is absolutely terrific..but its been a lot of work and learning by trial and error. Hell, I probably spent more on sand paper than a new Veritas or LN would have cost....lol
Last weekend I was up at the Antique Tool Auction in Nashua, NH. the prices of used tools are going up quickly. Veritas and LN are becomming real bargains..
Shhhhh I just bought a Veritas shoulder plane. Wonderful.
Ed
Yes it is! ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have the L-N rabbet block plane (in addition to a L-N 4 1/2 smoothing plane) , have used it a lot over the past 1- 1 1/2year, and wouldn't be without it now.
As to whether L-N is worth it: if you are experienced tuning planes and are willing to spend about 4-6 hours tuning a less expensive Record/Bailey as I did, you can save $100. I don't think Veritas probably requires that much tuning but I have no experience with the Veritas planes. If you are looking at Veritas and L-N, I would also suggest you look at Clifton; I bought a Clifton shoulder plane ( the only Clifton I own) and was truly impressed with their quality for less than the L-N.
If today I was in the market for another plane, I would look at Clifton and Veritas (judging from the comments on this forum) but I am so happy with the L-N that I am willing to pay the extra to get a plane that virtually no one complains about and many rave about. If the money is no matter, L-N has my vote everytime.
Yes, Lie-Nielsen tools are definitely worth the extra money. Fit and Finish can't be matched and the tools will last forever. The handles are much more comfortable than the Veritas ones, and the edge lasts forever on them. If you can afford it, go with L-N.
When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
Matt
"the handles are much more comfortable than the Veritas ones".
What makes the handles on the LN more comfortable than the Veritas in the comparison? I came to just the opposite conclussion. But my judgement was based on the size of my hands, the lenght of my fingers and the way I grasp the handle while planing.
I think that the shape, spacing and height of a handle would be a matter of personal feel for each and every individual as it is a matter of your physical and mental feed-back. Just my view of the world. :>)
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
I too found the Lie Nelsons to be much more comfortable to hold onto. they just had this nice feeling that I couldn't get from the Veritas ones.
Kinda like the differance in holding a very nice girl and the girl you know you're gonna marry. Both are wonderful but that feeling you get from Lie Nelson's is just special..
Aw maybe I'm just prejudiced because I wound up married to the Lie Nelsons, er, bought the Lie Nelsons!
OK, so I'm working that anology to death,...
Frenchy
I have a feelin" that you are correct about being prejudice because you ended up married to the LN. ha.. ha...
I have heard folks say that the LN is absoulutely, beyond a doubt the ultimate hand plane. But they have never even driven a Veritas, Clifton, E.C.E, Clark Williams, etc., etc. I understand that, as the LN is an extremely high quality, well machined, progressive version of the "Bed-rock" which is a proven design.
What I took into account after using several are the high quality of the Veritas and the design is more to my likings. I personally prefer the way the mouth opens and closes and the two set-screws on each side to counter lateral movement. It has a 1/4" A-2 iron compared to the LN's 5/16" A-2. A-2 will hold an edge well, but A-2 is A-2 with slight differences in grade.
I planed 80 linear feet of from the saw-mill pecan yesterday. Not surfaced on any side. Used a Veritas #6 and a Veritas # 4 1/2. Could I have done it more efficiently, quicker or ended up with a smoother surface with an LN? I have used LN and I don't think so.
I can afford the LN, but as you stated I buy the absolute best tool that will get the job done at the best price. If someone can show me the $150 to $200 difference in the LN and Veritas, I will make the next plane LN. That's a promise. In the meantime, I will struggle by with my 5 Veritas's at about a $700 saving compared to if I had purchased LN.
If I told you a Griz jointer if not as good as a Delta, would you argue that point? Yep, cause you know that the Griz is not as cosmetic as the Delta, but it gets the same job done at a much more reasonable price. If someone wants to pay more to get the same results, that is a personal choice and I couldn't be more happy for them.
I saved $700 on 5 hand-planes. Some might say I'm a tight-wad cause I could have gotten the higher priced plane. Then again, someone else mightv view it as I get the same results and had enough difference to buy the Griz 8" jointer which is a bargain at a "bargain basement" price. And so is the Veritas. And life moves on to the next decision!
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The comfort of the handles is totally subective....I used the same criteria you did and liked the L-N better. Guess this just goes to show he's got to handle both to see which one he prefers.
Matt
NDMatt
Yep! That's pretty much what I originally said..
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You mean which pretty woman should you marry?
Your question smacks of the same issue.. More expensive means somebody thinks their's is worth more than the other guys..
I looked over the Veritas several friends used and then looked at the Lie Nelsons..
they were both very nice ladies but the class of the Lie Nelson convinced me that I should marry those.. I have a wierd sense of value.. I try to buy the cheapest tool that will work for me I buy Grizzley over Delta or others. They are good decent powertools and I found the simpler the better when it comes to power tools..
When it comes to beautiful women er,... hand planes I take a great deal of pleasure from having the absolute best..
the Veritas hand planes are awesome values when compared to the other top shelf tools. Meticulously machined and finished, with some design innovations to boot and at a price that is roughly 30% less than LN. I have both and can't find anything that compels me to go with LN if the same plane is available from Veritas. LN does have a much wider variety of planes.
but at the end of the day, even the pedestrian Bailey can be tuned up to perform superbly. My #4 Bailey works so well (after many hours of honing the parts) that I can't find a reason to replace it... put a Hock blade in it and it really sings.
I have to agree. For something like a jack plane, a well-tuned old Bailey or Bedrock is more than adequet. Also, IMHO, no new plane has handles as comfortable as the original rosewood totes. (Perhaps Mike in Katy should make replacement handles for new planes;)
That said, for fine work I love my LN smoother and low angle block plane. (I have not tried a Veritas, yet.)
It all depends on what you use the planes for.
Regards,
Dan
This question is asked frequently. The best answer I can give is to buy one of each. That way you'll experience for yourself any quality differences and be able to make a decision about future models. You're going to find that the L-N has better overall quality (don't hit me, Sarge) but only incrementally, and you're not going to be disappointed in the Veritas, either. But this little "experiment" will cost you at most maybe $100 and that's a price worth paying.
Mark
"the LN has better over-all quality".
Comparing the LN #4 1/2, low-angle smoother, #6 or scrap plane to the same with Veritas (which I have and had my BIL who is a machinist at Delta AL compare), could you pin-point where the better quality is. Is it the pretty wood handle or maybe the beauty of the box it comes in? Were the instructions hand scrolled by Monks in a monastery or the planes possibly pronounced Kosher by a Rabbi? Is it possible the A-2 is made in a more advanced formula kept secret at Area 51?
This is the question I have ask everyone that heralds the LN as the coming of the "savior". Show me $100 to $150 per plane difference in quality and end results and as I stated, I will buy one. I will concede that my BIL found the machining tolerances slightly better on the LN. But not anywhere minutely near enough to warrant that large a margin in price.
"Where's the beef"? he.....
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Oh, I knew that was going to press certain hot buttons. Now if I can find something derogatory to say about Grizzly I'll have ForestGirl yelling at me too and I'll never get out of the hot water.
What I recommended was that the gentleman buy one of each and decide for himself.
I do think the L-N has higher quality, having looked at and used both. Your machinist says the L-N is machined to tighter tolerances, which is a pretty good indicator of overall machine quality. I've used the low angle block planes of both manufacturers and find the L-N definitely has greater heft, a better feel in the hand, and subtley better performance.
At the same time, I bought the Veritas shoulder plane rather than the L-N because I thought it was a better value proposition.
I can tell you the L-N is better quality, and your machinist would back me up, but I can't tell you or the original questioner whether the better quality is worth the difference in price to you or to him. That's a decision for each individual, just as it was for the L-N chisels. And that's why I suggested the original questioner buy one of each and make his own decision. I predicted he wouldn't be unhappy with either.
I'd bet that the Veritas folks would agree with the gist of my point, at least after a couple of martinis (can you get good martinis in Canada?). I think they intentionally aim for a quality/price intersection where the quality is somewhat below L-N but the price is far below. In fact, they could probably tell you in every respect - materials, machining, and so forth - exactly where their quality is lower and how this enables them to compete on the price. I'm sure they'd also tell you that the places where their quality is lower really don't matter to the performance of the plane, just as Chevy is going to tell you that many of the things that make Lexus "better" and more expensive really don't affect the driving experience. Sometimes that's true, sometimes it isn't.
Now about those Grizzly cabinet saws (left tilting). . . .
Mark
I'll let Frenchy "go to bat" with the Grizzly. And yes, I do agree that one should actually try both before they make a decision on where they want to spend their dollar. That's my whole point. I think that a lot of the higher quality is basically here-say from not having actually comparing or just from general "word of mouth".
The small machining difference is basically in the grinding marks left on the two planes. The LN requires little to get to a high, friction free polish. I take the Veritas through 600, 1200 grit on tempered glass to get to the LN level. Same with the A-2 iron on the Veritas but I take it to a 8000 waterstone.
This is about a 1 hour investment. I don't mind working for $100+ a hour to cut the bottom line. In the end, I get to the same destination without the prestige. The surplus can be directed elsewhere. More needed tools, family, 401K, etc., etc., etc..
I suppose this might lead one to think I'm frugal. Maybe! Then again it could be construed as just good ole fashioned common sense with a hint of utilitarianism. Maybe! I guess when it comes to economics, only two people are really in the position to judge and speculate if my theories are sound.
That be me and my CPA!! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha...
Regards...
sarge.jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Greetings,
I live a little north of Warren, Maine where the LN tools are made.
When I make the plunge to buy a tool, I drive up to the show
room door. The man who is usually there is very friendly & knowledgable. You can get all the hands-on you want. People who work in the shop will sometimes come in & take a few turns on a board & disappear back into the shop. The shipping area is in plain sight through a show room window. You can count the cars in the back parking lot, & now, see ground breaking for a new expansion. I get the satisfaction of buying "local" & seeing my money go into a vital business. Their tools are simple & elegant ("free from awkwardness,") Whether I'm trimming a picture frame, or scribing a door, I like using hand planes, because its so quiet & expedient. The extra I'm willing to pay for a new tool made by LN is worth it to me for all the reasons stated. By necessity I limit my tool purchases, since its only one of my avocations. I've been just as satisfied with my Ridgid planer & jointer, as my LN planes & saws.You can't buy happiness, but a well made tool working smoothly in your hands is pretty close.
Cheers
TATLIN
I got to get ready for work, but I think you have hit on something I suspect. LN is small and hand labor is high due to our inflated economy. Even though being small carries a smaller over-head, it takes it's toll in out-the-door price.
I would prefer to buy American. If LN could get the cost down so it's reasonable for the average Joe, their market would see an increase in sales. Until they do, I have to look for more value as putting kid's throught college and keeping families afloat is more of a priority than having a "fine Amercan made tool". The LN will last a life-time, but so will the competitors tool when both are cared for properly.
This is a shame that most have to go outside our own borders to get the bargain. But we put ourselves in this position and not in just your area. It's true from coast to coast. So we are all at blame and I accept mine.
BTW, I have an LN Independence DT saw. I didn't like the price, but I did see that much difference in the competitors quality and end-result to pay the difference.
Thanks for your view...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
Awhile back I had the notion of setting up my own fine woodworking supply store in San Jose. There is currently no competition within 40 miles.
Called up Lie-Neilsen to get a wholesale price list and they said they are taking on NO new wholesale customers since their plant is at capacity.
Must be a lot of people out there who see the same value in the Lie-Neilsen product as I do._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"Let no one be slow to seek wisdom when he is young nor weary in the search of it when he has grown old." Epicurus
michael
If their plant is at capacity and you can sell all you can produce retail by recieving a phone call, why would you want to create a wholesale market at all? I have a feeling they did it originally to get their foot in a broader market with folks like Highland Hardware as a distributor.
Now that they have been discovered, I would guess that they wish they had no wholesalers at this point at all. I understand your loyalty to LN and your preception of it's quality, but I think you missed the mark on why they are not taking on new wholesalers.
A good example is the company I work part-time for. We have 20 major distributors. Four of the top ten are in Canada. We also get between 3000 and 4000 phone calls a day direct. Four years ago, we stopped taking on whole-salers. At this point we don't need them, but have a contract with the current ones. They will probably be kept when it expires as a show of loyalty for getting us "out of the starting blocks". Just the correct thing to do if they want to sty on-board. Most won't as the majority of buying public call direct now and get it straight from the horse's mouth. The business was started 23 years ago with a 23 page catalog from the owners dad's basement. We currently reside in a 280,000 sq. ft. building with retail sales of $50,000,000. Wholesalers aren't necessary at this point.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
I'm sorry to argue with you, but, if you having a thriving, and growing, wholesale business, and a thriving and growing retail business - why would you give up either?
One of the reasons why they make buildings in all sizes is sometimes 280,000 sf ain't big enough and sometimes $50,000,000 in sales is only a temporary plateau until the building gets bigger._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"Let no one be slow to seek wisdom when he is young nor weary in the search of it when he has grown old." Epicurus
Sarge,
I've had both the Lie-Neilsen large shoulder plane and the Veritas medium shorter plane, so I have at least that basis for comparison. I sent the Veritas back twice before given up on it (To Lee Valley's credit, they provide excellent customer service). The first time I sent the Veritas plane back, I did so because the two halves of the main casting where they formed the round pole on which the lever cap rotated were not even close to lined up, meaning that the lever cap was only supported by the main body of the plane on only one side. Candidly, I'm not sure whether this would effect the tool's life or operation. But, it was clear that the two havles of the cast iron body were not aligned when joined together and I figured that this was just a production error, so I sent the plane back and Lee Valley sent me another.
On the second plane, the situation with the lever cap support bar was again the same. So I figured this was just the way the plane was designed. I can't really figure any good reason why you'd do it that way on purpose but, maybe it's necessary for fabrication.
Well, on Lee Valley plane #2, I checked the sides of the plane to see if they were perpendicular to the sole and one was not. I don't have a feeler gauge but, with my engineer's square, there was a visible growing line of light as you looked from the base to the top of the plane when you put the square on the bottom and up one side.
The next time I was at the tool store, I checked all of their shoulder planes (Lie-Nielsen, Stanley and Cliftons) and none of them had any visible gap at all when checked with a square. I bought the Lie Nielsen because the larger size felt comfortable and sent back the Veritas.
I own a Veritas block plane and fore plane and I like them both very much, particularly the block plane.
I'm not sure whether my next plane purchase will be a Veritas or Lie-Nielsen 4 1/2 smoother. I would have no problem buying Veritas again. I have bought a fair amount of other Lee Valley stuff and their customer support was great with the shoulder plane so I'm not concerned about being stuck with something that I'm not satisfied with.
Well, at the end of this long winded comment, I was just wondering Sarge whether the pole of the main casting on your Veritas is straight across and, if not, if you've even given a second thought to whether this is of any significance? (I assume the the sides are square to the bottom on yours). I'm a relatively inexperienced woodworker and frankly don't necessarily trust my own judgment regarding the significance, if any, of this issue and would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Matt
Matt
The sole on any plane should be flat. The sides are not critical except on a plane used for shooting as a shoulder, block, low angle smoother, etc. I would be more concerned with the frog and bed. The soles on even a cheap plane can be flttened rather easily, but the frog an bed is more of a challenge. They can be done, but it requires more patience and a measure of hand machining skill.
I have no problem with any of my Veritas. If they had not meet what I consider reasonable tolerances, I would have also returned them.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have not had a plane in my hand since being a child and trying very unsuccessfully to use my father's plane. He would get these great long curls of wood off of it and all I got was frustrated digging it into the wood. Well I am ready to try again. So the question is:
If I am going to buy a plane, what is the most useful model/type to get for a first plane? From the disucssion above it will be either the Veritas or a Lie Neilsen.
Thanks for any suggestions!
-M
Martha
I'm going to be real controvesial here and suggest a Stanley #78 or #278 rebate plane. Why?
They are relatively easy to set up, and are a lot of fun to use. As you become more experienced at sharpening the blade, you'll notice that cutting rebates becomes easier. You will also gain an appreciation of what a (tissue) paper thin shaving looks like, without having to worry about keeping then plane tracking straight. You will also discover the devil of all rebate and shoulder planes — what happens when the blade is not set exactly flush or a tiny bit proud of the body and parallel to the sole, your rebate develops a sloped rather than a vertical face and sloped base.
Once you have mastered cutting square rebates with polished bases, you'll be ready to tackle face planing and edge jointing. Then you could look at getting a #5 or #6 to build your skills and move onto a greater range of smothers and jointers.
Ian
Martha
I think ian gave a bit of good advice. It is difficult to pick up a larger hand plane and get good results without learning the basics. I think you can get discouraged as you did and shy away from what can be a very rewarding experience for the long haul. A low angle or standard block and the shoulder plane are almost in-dispensable in my shop. The blocks handle end grain and the shoulder for trimming tenons and cleaning out dadoes.
I also suggest you pick up or get one of the books from the library on hand-planes. The Hand-Plane Book by Hock or there is one out of print I found in the library recommended by Charles Stanford. I forget the name and author.
The smaller planes as ian stated with get you familarized with planes in general an are easier to use. You build up confidence and can move to a larger plane> just remember that the bevel on irons on a block and shoulder face up. They are at a lower angle and are easier to manipulate. The smoothers and jointers have the face toward the rear and the plane requires more muscle. Skewing (planing at an angle) lowers the angle. That's where the books will help with the basics. They're simple but can appear complicated if you don't know the basics.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If you want it to work as it should right out of the box with no tuning, personally I'd buy the Lie Nelsons. If on the other hand you don't mind tuning it up a bit then according to Sarge the Varitas can be made to work every bit as well..(and you'll save some money)...
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I appreciate the expenses some of these tool choices incur on the family purse strings. One visit there I left with one of their carcus saws, after a demonstration by the always friendly showroom man, Ted. I use it alot & would never have thought about buying one, but for the hands-on experience. They knock 10% off the price for showroom buys. I have my share of foreign made tools: Festool & Fein, so I can't claim to be "homegrown only." I do think when you have the pleasure of one brand's tools, you tend to be loyal to that brand in the future. My 16 year old Delta Contractor's table saw cuts square & true. Ian Kirby's Tablesaw Book put me in the know how to best utilize it (understand its limitations, really.) The Ridgid planer & jointer were on sale, & given my needs, more than adequate. It really matters what kind of service you get on the other end of the phone when you have a problem. I've had great service from all the manufacturers whose tools I own. Your experience with Veritas sounds typical from what I've read, so they retain your loyalty. I think thats what most folks are looking for, along with an adequate price to quality.
Cheers
TATLIN
I think you're correct on the loyalty thing. I use Crest tooth-paste and have for years. The other brands including the generic probably get the same results. But, my hand heads straight for the Crest at the pharmacy or super-market. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Well, unless the price has become exorbitant over the other brands. Then I might just give one of the others a ride home in the back of my pick-up truck with the other groceries. College tuition comes up quarterly. ha.. ha....
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The wholesale vs. retail vs. direct sales is a relatively complex issue involving more than just fundamentals. A major factor is the relationship between the cost to produce a product at various volumes and the price and margins at each level. Usually, higher volumes equal lower production costs and it takes greater distribution (this is the wholesale factor) to support a given output. If L-N were to adopt the LV/Veritas model, it might be able to do away with its wholesale trade by discontinuing its distribution through Woodcraft, Garrett Wade and other retailers, but it would not be able to maintain its present volume of production and, therefore, would become less available with a probable consequence of higher unit cost. There really is no magic to L-N's products other than a committment to high quality (which, incidentally, isn't 100 percent perfect; I've had to return two items due to a slip in quality control). I've been through their factory twice, once recently and once several years ago, and found only conventional production methods. But their committment to putting out consistent high quality and customer satisfaction has been accepted in the marketplace as proven by their relatively high sales volume. The higher output they currently have for a limited product line gives them the opportunity to do a good job while allowing retailers to tack on a profit margin. Also, since L-N continues to develope new products and expand their product line, demand continues to grow for well made tools. I moved up from the English knock-offs several years ago when I found many problems with them and needed to have out-of-the-box quality and reliability and I haven't looked back. Marples, Record and Stanley just don't cut it without what amounts to the need for remanufacturing before they are ready to be put into service. My experience with Veritas products is limited, but I do intend to buy one or two small tools that aren't in the L-N lineup.
Jim
I personally feel they can at this point sell all they produce out the front door retail. Why would I want to weaken my profit margin by wholesale? How many people that are in the market for a high quality plane do not at this point know that the plane is available direct by calling LN? I could call Fine WW Journall and buy about $30 cheaper. But, if I have a problem, they are the middle-man and it takes longer to get resolved. I had rather pay the $30 extra and have the solution to a problem come straight from the horse's mouth.
I feel that wholesale creates price wars which is good for the consumer, so bring them on from my standpoint. But as the price goes down, production has to go up to attain the same profit margin. For a small company that has established an international reputation, why add the head-aches of increasing production rapidly, adding employees and the weight that carries, etc., etc. I would personally choose to increase production gradually and if the burden of selling direct got so big, there are folks standing in line to distribute. But adding wholesalers carries a certain weight also.
Just my view. Unless we hear from LN direct, we don't know for sure what they ae thinking and the problems they shoulder with growing pains. So, in essence we are dealing with pure speculation no matter what we personally think.
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Amen... when I've bought L-N, I've always bought direct.
charles
If I ever decide to re-open my own company opposed to Donald Trump and You're Fired.......... You're Hired!!
If I let someone else spend my money, I prefer they are thinking along the same lines as I would spend it myself...
ha.. ha...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Just say the word.
I totally agree about the level of speculation, not only with respect to the L-N topic, but throughout Knots. However, having been a book publisher and playing in the marketing arena for some time, I can speak to the wholesale vs. retail issue from experience. The wholesale price typically satisfies the cost plus profit part of the producer's role; the retail markup (not including any allowances for distributors, jobbers, etc.) is what pays for the distribution. Only the folks at Lie-Nielsen can address their situation, but I'm relatively certain the way they operate is a reasoned choice. For one thing, Tom Lie-Nielsen spent time in the retail end of the tool business himself and had first-hand exposure to its pros and cons. My guess [speculation] is that a given margin over cost times many units equals a better shot at a higher total return. At least, this is the common model. In any case, their tools are meeting a very considerable demand at a higher price point than several other manufacturers who are operating on the same model.
Jim
Agree with your assessment if this was a fast moving consumer good. But it's a very narrow and specialized market. Not that many hand plane users and a specific plane once purchased does not have to be replaced like toilet paper, groceries or beer.
I will speculate like I owned LN. Don't need distributors except outside the U.S. at this point. Have the exposure and a large percentage of sales are direct and at full retail. If I take on more distributors, I have to expand rapidly and that requires capital. I borrow and expand.
What if the market sours as a non necessity good if the first to go in reccessive times. I still have to meet payroll, loans and hope the economy strenghthens quickly. If not, I lost it all on speculation.
Instead, I sell at retail to maximize profit. Part of the profit is re-invested and I expand slowly and diversify with other products added slowly. If the bottom falls out, I can pull back without excessive debt and re-structure.
I want to expand, but without un-necessay risk. I do it "one day, one plane and one dollar at a time". Most wealth is not accumlated over-nite! I could get lucky, but with my limited market, I wouldn't bet on it..
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Rob Lee's very well-thought-out reply states that Veritas has achieved "a price performance point which is unmatched."
Whether it is "unmatched" for a given product must of course remain in the eye of the beholder. But the essence of the post, that Veritas (like anyone else manufacturing goods) is looking not necessarily for the highest quality in the market but rather for a competitive combination of price and quality, is what I was saying and thought Veritas would confirm.
Mark -
I would just add one small, but significant, clarification to that...we do not compromise on function to achieve our price-performance..."quality" isn't necessarily the determinant of performance...
Ultimately - for any product or service to be successful, there has to be some "value" for the consumer...we stop "quality" at the point where it no longer has a bearing on function....things like exotic materials and processes, as well as expensive cosmetic changes.
Earlier in this same thread - another poster in this thread wrote about the lever cap pivot cast in the shoulder plane body being "mis-aligned" - truth is - that's how sand casting works - alignment is variable. It's a purely aesthetic thing, which has zero impact on useability, or function. We could eliminate it - but that would add at least $10-15 dollars to the retail price, and we don't feel it's worth it - it won't improve the function one bit. We are aware of it, and will see what we can do with mold refinements (actually, it's a "core"). Is it worth the $15 to the OP? No doubt it is. Is it worth the $15 to everyone - no way...
I could have the same discussion about buildings - internal function vs exterior architecture - and possibly get in trouble with another segment of our customer base (and I have received letters from architects about why we don't spend more money on store facades). We place our value proposition strongly on the side of performance.
One can agree or not with that philosophy - that's why there's multiple choices in the marktplace..
Cheers -
Rob Lee
Rob, your point is well taken.
This whole discussion has an unnecessarily moralistic and even personal tone. I mean, of course Veritas "sacrifices" quality and performance to achieve the desired price point, and of course Lie-Neilsen and every other manufacturer does exactly the same thing! This is not a sign of immorality, it's what every organization does, including mine! The freaking Catholic Church has to do it; unfortunately, when they choose the wrong balance of cost and performance/quality the repercussions are slightly worse than a plane blade that has to be honed a bit longer.
I think you guys hit the right price/performance balance on some things and not on others. I think the same thing about Lie-Nielsen. And each person's perception of that balance on an individual product is going to be different, depending on financial circumstances and other factors.
I'll tell you one thing I'm sure you"ll agree with: building and maintaining a successful business is damned hard work! Thanks for building and maintaining yours.
Rob
Thanks for the assist! I needed a breather. I thought I been put out on "point" without any flankers and a rear guard. he...
I know, I know. This still doesn't get me the 10% discount on my next purchase at LV. But you better warn that sales staff that I'm gonna "go for it anyway". I don't give up easy. And that's a fact! ha.. ha...
Keep up the good work...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge -
Makes for interesting reading sometimes, doesn't it?
We "Have" kept up the good work...watch the "new products" area on the website on Monday...two new planes, and something new in the spokeshave area... :)...among other things...
Cheers and thanks -
Rob
Rob
Early Sat. morning, but I'm going to speculate on the two new planes. Guessing the # 5 low angle and another perhaps larger shoulder plane.
How close did I come? ha.. ha... No need to reply as it looks as if you got your hands full. If it's a 1" or larger shoulder expect a call Monday or Tuesday. I'm in the market.
You're welcome...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge - here's a pic and Rob Lee's announcement
Rob spends a bit of time on this site.
Cheers,
eddie
eddie
Thanks for the pics an announcement. I have the medium shoulder and it's a nice piece of work. Especially for cleaning the bottom of 3/4" dadoes and small tenons. A 1"+ shoulder would be nice or larger tenons.
Do you have a source for Veritas "down under" and have you used one of their planes? I think it would be a successful venture down there for someone to distribute if LV had an interest in the market. Your young and ambitious so possibly opportunity knocks. Just a thought.
I'm getting close to retirement, so I might consider a shop on a peice of resonable land down your way. I like to keep my options open. Wanted to set up shop in that "oprey house" over-looking the harbor, but ian said they still use it. Love classical music, but never did care for opera. Sounds like someone getting certain portions of their body squeezed with a pair of channel-locks. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi Sarge,
The only veritas product I've used is their scraper plane insert - worked fine but chattered a bit too much over machine marks for my liking - If it had a thicker scraper blade, it would have worked well.
I think that our local retailers have to buy Veritas at retail price, then import and add their 35% margin on the landed price, so they're a bit expensive.
I used to run an import/export company and could wholesale, but the market isn't that large here. Should be enough room in the basement of the Opera House - the wharf is pretty close too, so it should be an ideal place to set up a sideline business. Ian N lives over the harbour, so you've got at least one customer close by.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 5/8/2004 9:32 pm ET by eddie (aust)
eddie
"near the wharf, side-line business"
Hmmm!! Sounds if hand-crafted furniture, blackened yellow-tail and crab-cakes on a stick could be a winning combo. Heavy on the Tabasco sauce on those crab-cakes!
ha.......
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
eddie,
have you tried attacking the surface at an angle to the machine marks? You should anyways with a hand held scraper.....go at 45 degrees or so to the machine marks and the chatter should disappear....once the the machine marks are gone, you can go parallel to the grain to get the polished surface a scraper can give...Tim
Mr. Lee
Thanks for that clarification about the lever cap pivot (and the correct name). I figured it was not an intentional design element but something that was inherent in the fabrication. Even though, from my lay perspective, it is somehow "better" to have full support across the entire length of the lever cap (even if not for functionality, then perhaps for longevity), I claim no particular expertise to make that assessment.
I'm not sure from your post whether I am the "OP" for whom aligning the two halves of the pivot is worth $15 but, the primary reason I returned the second plane I received was that only one of the two sides was square to the sole of the plane. I suppose this is also a matter of degree, so, being curious, I was just wondering if Veritas has a particular tolerance you manufacture to in this regard? I was also wondering if the casting alignment issue creates planes of slightly varied length, depending on how much material has to be removed from the front and back if the castings don't line up exactly? Feel free not to answer these questions if they are trade secrets or something, but I'm just curious about the process.
By the way, you should probably give Sarge his requested 10% discount. He's been fighting the good fight for you around the forums here. I alternately picture his Veritas shoulder plane softly lit on the top of a velvet pillow, which in turn sits on a golden pedestal sometimes, at other times, Sarge waist-high in long, thin shavings madly planing away with it.
One of the great difficulties for those of us relatively new to the hobby, is how to distinguish those product differences which are just "fit and finish" without functional significance and those that effect either performance and/or durability of the product. We will have to debate this thread again in another 200 years and see how many Veritas and L-N planes are still around and what people are willing to pay for them (hopefully neither brand is scarce because they were not produced in great number and widely distributed).
Matt
Matt -
You caught me leaving for a trip (in about 15 minutes) so I can't reply right away. Will write on the (air)plane, and post when I get to the hotel tomorrow...
Cheers -
Rob Lee
(PS - "OP" is "Original Poster"...)
Matt
"You should probably give Sarge his requested 10% discount".
He...... If it were to happen and it isn't, I would refuse to take it till everybody gets a 10% discount that day. I fight for the "under-dog". ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Matt -
Took awhile to get this posted - having email problems...but here's the promised reply...
(written in a plane somewhere over the mid-west).
This explanation has grown quite a bit since I started it, so bear with me – your answers are all in here somewhere!
There are a number of inherent challenges to machining a casting. Firstly – the “resolution” of a raw casting is low – both to allow for shrinkage as the liquid metal cools, and to provide “draft” – a taper so that the mold will release from the sand. A typical mold looks like a 1/2 “ thick aluminum plate, with half of a product protruding from each side. The plane of the plate defines the “part line” of the mold – where the two surfaces of the mold shell meet – leaving a void
If one wanted to cast a 1” cube in ductile iron, one would have to make a mold that looked like a sheet of aluminum with a truncated pyramid .505” tall protruding from each side. The sides of each pyramid would tapered in at 1 or two degrees. Each edge of the pyramid bases would also be something like 1.1” long. Each side of the plate is then pressed into, and removed from, a box of “sticky” sand which retains the shape of that side of the mold. The opposite side of the plate is then pressed into another box of sand – to create the second half of the mold. The two sand “half molds” are then pressed together to define the formed void –into which the liquid metal is poured. Now – any error in pressing either side of the plate into either box, or any error in positioning the two boxes together will result in a mis-aligned casting. As the errors can be additive – the net “error” can be relatively large… say 3 errors of positioning by 1/32” – can result in a net error of 3/32” – almost an 1/8”….which would be very significant in a ½” wide part!
Returning to our “cube” example – lets say there was no positioning error. We pour the molten metal into the mould – and let it cool… The “cube” hardens on the outside first, and solidifies at the center last. Metal also shrinks as it condenses – so as our cube solidifies from the outside in, it draws more molten material from the sprue (the hole/funnel we poured the metal into) or – if the sprue has hardened, it “puckers” the casting on the weakest side (good thing we allowed for “shrinkage”). Of course – we don’t know where the pucker will occur (if it does). In some cases, the metal will cool such that it neither pulls in more molten metal – nor will it pucker a side…instead – it creates a vacuum filled “void”, or an internal stress is formed.
Now – after cooling – we break our “cube” free from the sand – and find that we have a cubelike shape – uneven on all surfaces and looking like two truncated pyramids base-to-base – and a circular blob attached somewhere (the Sprue). Now we go to machine the faces of our cube (after getting rid of the blob somehow) – and discover our first manufacturing challenge – which irregular face do we use as a reference? We basically have one choice (in this example) – either of the pyramid “tops”. Most likely – we would clamp our shape in place and mill the opposing pyramid top flat. We’d remove, invert, and re-clamp the piece (having established a reference surface), make a coarse registration off of another side, and then mill the face of an exposed side – that would then be perpendicular to the first face we milled, and we’d have a straight edge where the planes intersect. Now we’d use a fixture that would register off of the tow perpendicular surfaces, and mill parallel planes a known distance from the reference planes – completing our cube. Now also remember – we could hit (at any time) a void in the casting (“porosity” – which looks like pitting). If we are making a thin walled part – we could mill through (or surface grind through) an area with high internal stress – which would cause the part to warp immediately – or even at some time much later, due to a change in temperature for example.
So – if making something as “simple” and symmetric as a cube requires the steps above – you can imagine the difficulties with something asymmetric, with thin walls, and relatively narrow and long.
The shoulder plane has an added degree of complexity – it uses a “core” which is a cast mold – which is then positioned within the space between the two sand mold halves. Now we have two molds (both with positional errors, and are then positioning those one inside the other – creating another positional error. So – why do it??? Casting a “bridge” (which is also the lever cap pivot) between the two thin walls of the shoulder plane body have a tremendous stabilizing influence, when it comes to surface grinding the side… it prevents a tremendous amount of deflection – which would occur if the thin walls were unrestrained. It also eliminates having to insert and fix a pivot (like a pin). If one examines other shoulder planes (like a Record 73) one can see that Record used a recess in the sidewalls to trap a portion on the lever cap. The purpose of the “pivot” in our shoulder plane – is to provide something to restrain the lever cap – so it doesn’t move when pressure is applied ( it’s not really a pivot….).
A bench plane with a well-bedded blade does not require much force applied to the lever cap – once the blade has been restrained from movement, any additional force just stresses the bed area back of the mouth. As a matter of fact – this is a crafty way to make very fine blade adjustments in a LA shoulder or rabbet plane without moving the blade – increasing the lever cap pressure temporarily deforms the blade bed…causing the bed/blade to bend downwards.
Tolerances for the sides of a plane are best described in terms of angular accuracy – “straight” or “flat” really only applies to a single plane, or single line. For our shoulder plane – the cutting edge is only .700 wide – so even a .002” gap using a square on the side would result in at most a cut difference of a fraction of a thousandth of an inch from side to side…certainly less than the variance one will get with wood movement alone – registering on the face of a tenon…
As I’m just flying over the Rockies right now – I don’t have access to the angular tolerance for this plane – but will post those too, once I get them. I can tell you they are set where there will be virtually no measurable error in the cut.
From a “lay” perspective – I can understand the difficulty with evaluating the “quality” of a product when one has measuring instruments – the tendency is to evaluate or quantify quality with those. When one has more experience – one can evaluate the quality through use, and through results, and use the measuring instruments to diagnose...
Cheers -
Rob Lee
Since you brought up the point of function. I bought your two new spokeshaves( the ones with the wood handles) and had a bit of a gripe with the function. The mouth tended to clog very badly. So I fixed them, since I'm not a tool maker it took me a bit of effort as in I had to do things slowly and carefully so as not to muck up the mouth opening. First I sharpened the chip breaker to get rid of almost all of the 90° angle you ground on the edge that contacts the blade. This was not enough. O.K. on the inside of the toe(the bit that faces the blade) you left about 4mm of more or less 90° face, I filed down the japaned casting face to where this 90° bit was only about 1/2 mm this allows the shavings to curl and exit with out clogging.
It's a bit of machining that you could do for practically nothing but that took me a bit of time to do. I personally would be willing to pay even a bit extra for this.After doing this with the shims you provided for closing the mouth opening I can get as good a results as I do with the Lie-Neilsen Boggs shaves.
Philip
if you order a L-N from Fine Tool Journal (http://www.finetoolj.com) they sell for around $30.00 less per plane than ordering straight from L-N.
I wanted to thank you for the your time in responding. It sounds as if the casting is far "rougher" than I had thought it would be as it comes from the sand. I had thought it would be relatively easy to align the two pieces of the sand mold so that the two halves of the plane would be in alignment.
I think I have a better understanding of what the pivot does (and does not do). If it doesn't take much pressure to secure the blade to the bed, I can see why it wouldn't make much difference if the lever cap is only supported on one side. If, on the other hand, you're using the "trick" of adjusting the cut by deflecting the blade and bed by applying pressure with the lever cap, I would at least think that there would be a possibility of the blade/bed deflecting more on one side because of the lack of lever cap support on one side (idle speculation perhaps).
As far as your point about those new to woodworking using specifications to determine their purchases as opposed to hands on experience, I would imagine a great many potential consumers don't have the chance to test-drive various models of different types of planes before pulling the trigger and making a purchase. With respect to the Veritas planes in particular that I have purchased, I have never even had an opportunity to see them, let alone use them, before making a purchase (maybe that will all change as I have an upcoming business trip to Toronto). While the internet is a wonderful thing, and I would suspect that it has helped expand both yours and Lie-Nielsen's business quite a bit, a lot of my woodworking purchases, by necessity, are made without having ever seen in person, held or used the product (maybe I need to find more local woodworking friends with tool addictions). My only relatively local woodworking store is Woodcraft and while they carry various Veritas items, they don't carry any planes. This seems to be the case with other mail-order retailers as well.
Anyway, again, I wanted to thank you for the time you took in responding to my post.
Matt
Hmmmm. My Woodcraft store carries many of the L-N models in stock. However, you'd probably have to visit the L-N showroom in Maine to test drive one if you don't know someone locally who can let you try one out. I've never seen a Veritas plane in a store, though, which is likely because they don't have wide retail distribution.
On the Veritas distribution, the funny thing is that many places seem to carry other Veritas products, but, as far as I know, no one else carries their planes. I would guess it has something to do with the finances involved, but, that's only a guess. Maybe their mark-up on their planes is insufficient to support two people making a profit off of it or maybe Lee Valley/Veritas feels that their reputation is sufficient now that they don't need resellers to stock their planes locally.
Matt
This morning I ordered the Veritas bronze edge plane. Although I expect the LN version would be vastly superior in quality. . . . .I chose the Veritas because they've made it slightly wider and longer (that's supposed to be slightly funny, not inflammatory).
To anyone still following this thread. . . .
I got the Veritas edge plane. After the normal re-honing of the blade it cuts beautifully (for some reason they had ground the bevel to about 17 degrees so I just put a steeper-than-usual secondary bevel on the tip and it works great). It does just what I wanted: it puts a perfect 90 degree angle on the edges of boards to be glued together, correcting for any variances left by the table saw and jointer plane.
The one downside is that the blade adjustment mechanism is very fussy. I suppose I'll get used to it. I don't now if L-N uses a different mechanism. The drawback of the L-N is that the blade is narrower so you can only edge a 3/4" board, whereas the Veritas goes up to a full inch.
The Veritas is a better unit because of the added capacity (up to 1") I can't remember the last time a glued together a tabletop that was not at least 7/8" or thicker. I usually make carcass sides around 7/8ths too.
Yeah, I can't really understand why the L-N is so narrow, other than that they were just building a faithful reproduction of an older plane. But that begs the question, why was Stanley's original so narrow? Is/was the 3/4" dimension so standardized?
L-N stuff is good, but this tool would sit in my shop unused because of its lack of capacity.
I agree.
If you ever want to try the Veritas let me know and I'll send you mine for a test drive.
I've been thinking about buying the Veritas unit. I'll holler at you. Thanks for the offer.
Sarge,
Have you ever driven a Ferrari? If you had you'll know what the Ferrari offers for roughly three times the price of a Jaguar.. Both are supurb cars of exceptional ability both offer near similar speed and aceration rates with sometimes the nod going to Jaguar over Ferrari in performance levels..
Yet you will find few people who do not perfer the Ferrari if they were able to afford them..
The cost of Lie Nelsons is not a major budget breaker (at least in my case) while the cost of owning a Ferrari is (if I ever want to finish this house)
There is a world of differance between usable and the best and often that mind set is what determines the differance in my output..
Now I applaud those of you who take a chunk of wood and jam a chunk of steel into it and tune it untill you get a nice plane.
To do is is an admirable achievement ceratinly worthy of note, yet I'll buy what I percieve as the "best" and go happly on with my life..
Just bought 9 LN planes from Craftsman Studios. Service was outstanding and the prices very competitive. My choice is obvious.
Dale
Wow.
I'd hate to be Dr. Duvall. He's left himself no room for excuses - can't blame his tools.
I think we could start a separate discussion page on my original question. Thanks everyone for all the feedback.
FYI I've decided to buy a Lie-Nielsen block plane now plus the new Veritas high-angle blade for the Veritas smooth plane I already owned. I also own a reconditioned old Canadian Bailey No.4 (w/Hock blade) that really works nicely but is poor on adjustability - this will do for now but I think I'' buy the Veritas 5 1/4 as a general bench plane in the near future.
- P.S. try Fine Tool Journal (google it online) for cheaper than the usual prices on Lie-Nielsen's line.
>Have you ever driven a Ferrari?<
Frenchy, I can't resist replying to this one. I have driven a Ferrari (one time) and I thought the accelerator, brake and clutch pedals were too dang close together. My friend demonstrated how it would do like 55 or some insane speed in 1st gear and I will say that was fairly impressive. My Ford pickup will do that, too - it's just that the engine will blow up.
ED
Can't go places in a Ford truck you can in a Chevy.. Granted a Ford truck is good, but it just doesn't have the quality of the Chevy.. heee............
I have just sucessively completed the Jon Arno School to Trouble-Making......
Have a great day and get humping on that cedar.
Regards from due east...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Ed,
Why do you think the Italians sell those little pointy shoes? ;-)
Actually there is reason for excellance in all things.. A Ferrari is an excellant sports car but it makes a lousy pick-up.
That does not mean that a Ferrari is all things to all people, mearly if you were to select the sports car that has the most 'elan or Savoir Fare most would select a Ferrari..
Frenchy
I worked with Baker Motor Co. here in Atlanta from late 69 to 71. Now defunct, but we carried both Ferrari and Jaguar. The Ferrari was bought out by Fiat. The Ferrari carried the same set of distributor points as the Fiat 124. We sold the Ferrari points for $21.99 in 69'. We sold the same set of points to Fiat customers at $2.99.
Are people willing to pay for prestige. Yep! Without blinking an eye. Are they getting their monies worth? Each of us has to decide individually. Maybe and maybe not.
Do I think BMW is a great car. Yes. Do I feel it will get me from point A to point B more reliably than my Chevy truck. Nope. I worked with BMW in 72-74. Both, if oil are changed regularly and good-grade gas are used are capable of attaining over 300,000 miles. Both would require certain fast moving parts to be changed periodically as all moving parts produce friction and they leads to failure. You have to change timing belts on a BMW every 60,000 miles at a cost of about $350. You don't on Chevy. Where's the real value, in leather seats and Euro styling, etc. Again we all are the judge.
I just choose to make wise decisions with my money regardless of whether I can afford the prestige or not. The saving go where I feel they belong, to my family as I place more priority on them than I do my ego. And I still get from point A to point B as I paid cash and didn't create personal debt.
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
Well said.. No one claims that everyone needs to buy the most expensive... whatever!
The alternative is to replce others labor with your own.. You can tune-up a Stanley to work well. Effectively remachine it, replace the blade etc..
If you do that and produce woderful work than good for you.. you have your solution.. it's not wrong,... for you..
Others may need the feel the confidence that a Lie Nelson gives because their skills are marginal (at best) but using a Lie Nelson (or a Ferrari) helps them to achieve what they might not otherwise achieve..
In the end I doubt anyone will pry open my coffin and toss in whatever money I may have saved by buying one product over another..
On the other hand if I produce something wonderfull with those Lie Nelsons I'm ceratin that it will be charished..
Frenchy
I have a feeling that producing something wonderful with a tuned Anant would be cherished. An exactly the point I was originally trying to make here to those "new to" or thinking about getting involved with hand planes.
That point was if you can't justify buying the high quality end of hand planes, don't be discouraged to the point that you erase the urge to get involved. You don't have to have a LN to get to the finish line. Fine work can be produced and has been for centuries with less than superior tools. The craftsman guides the tool. The tool doesn't guide the craftsman. That is a proven point.
Put a superior tool in an in-experienced hand and you will get inferior results until those hands master it. Put an inferior tool in the hand of a craftsman and he will find a way to make it over-achieve.
I think too many here think I am ranting about the high cost of LN. Not.. Look at the original post and read carefully what he ask. I was merely pointing out that he can get value and achieve similar end results with a Veritas. That is the question he ask! I did not mention that he could get excellent results with a tuned Stanley, Anant or Sargent if he knew how.
Too many times have I seen it posted that so much can be achieved with the LN. It gives those interested in getting involved with hand-tools the impression that you cannot get bottom line results without the very best. I think when these statements are made, they are made from jubulation. I don't think that a lot of thought was given that there are lurkers that read and get the idea that if a veteran says it, it is so. And I simply contend that "it ain't so". I have always encouraged new-comers. I was an new-comer 31 years ago and the infromation so readlity available now was not available in 72'. This is a fantastic thing, but we should be careful how we word things as they can be mis-construed by the newie as he does not relate precisely and can be easily steered down the wrong path.
" I doubt that they will pry open my coffin and toss in whatever money I have saved by buying one product over another"
I doubt they will mine either. But I bet that my family cherishes the fact that if my roof needs repair, my frig goes south, my cars tranmission is full of metal shavings; that I can pay cash for it without having to take out a second mortage. I have no intentions of taking it with me, but I have every intention of leaving some for them so that life is easier than when my father died just before I was 13.
Yep, I do look for "bang for the buck". It's the only way I have ever known..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge, I hope you enjoy our debate as much as I do.. I suspect we have very similar views and are simply discussing the merits of this particular debate..
One point that you didn't discuss in your craftsman with basic tools and clutz with excellant tools is the feeling a beautifully turned out tool can impart to the user..
I am probably the best example of that..
I found myself able to achieve much more with better tools than I could with cheap tools.. Perhaps if my skill improves as I work on this place some of the credit will need to go towards those tools..
At the very least great tools stop being an excuse for poor work.. and if someone should buy all of the very best of everything and find out that they are not able to do much good with them at least there will be a surplus of fine tools on the used tool market..
One last point..
You repeatedly point out how you live on a cash basis. OK but I hope that you are aware that goes contrary to good economics..
Ford Motor company uses debt to a great degree to achieve much.. (OK if you are a GM fan subsitute GM for Ford) as does every major business in the world..
Debt when used to acquire assests that appreciate can be a good thing..
Yes I know more than a few people who do to their makeup cannot use credit wisely. They are forced to use cash only and that limits their economic ability.
Frenchy
I have used credit wisely during my 57 years. I keep only two credit cards these days that both have a $35,000 credit limit. Both have zero balances. Upon my semi-retirement 6 years ago, I pretty much don't use credit at all. I don't find it necessary and I have no major need. Credit card interest is not decuctible so I see no benefits. They are just there for emergency and convenience. The balance is paid each month. If I need quick money, it comes from money market checking or a 30 or a 90 day note from my bank. I will ocassioanlly buy a car I find at well under wholesale and can usually turn it within a week for a substantial profit.
H*ll, I'm not trying to rival Ford or GM at this point. I spent all the 16 hour days I'm going to when I had my own small company. I am comfortable and intend to keep it that way. I don't intend to spend the last of my years accumulating wealth. For those that keep digging, digging, digging they wake up one day and discover the hole they dug is 6' ft. deep, 4' wide and 8' long. Opps...
And that's my take on borrowing. It's not a lot of "bang for the buck". It's more of you get "Banged for your Buck" !!
ha.. ha....
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
This really should be a seperate subject, probably in the cafe, but I hope others will indulge me..
I'm not claiming that you are wrong to minimize your expense of credit (ie, interest paid) what I do say that credit when used wisely is a very good thing.. fear of using credit keeps a lot of people from achieving their goals..
You claim that you've met all of yours.. well good for you.. Since the average age of death for a healthy male in todays society is something like 78 and steadily rising that means you have 21 more years to live.. (the good lord willin')
I've found the most interesting senior citizens are those who are active and involved in something like a career/job/ hobby. Thus I intend to remain involved and working as long as I can breath.. When the job gets boring or fails to present any real challanges then I'll quit and start over on something else.
It's not about wealth accumlation (although that's how we keep score in the game of life) it's about the quality of life..
In my humble opinion,
your opinion may vary,
objects in the mirror are closer than they appear,
close cover before striking.........
Frenchy
"I have found that most interesting senior citizens are those that are active in career/job/hobby!
he.. he... French, I am semi-retired. I work a part-time job (35 hours as of two weeks ago when I was ask to assist in customer service) with a company that distributes old muscle car parts all over the world. My wife is retired from a mysterious lung disease 5 years ago when she was 39 years old. I moved my 92 year old mom with diabetes in two years ago. And the teen-ager, that's self-explanatory.
Every Oct. a group (ten of us now) build wooden toys for needy kids Xmas form donated scraps. Over 500 last year. I build tables, desk, shelving and chest for donation to womens, home-less, veterans, etc. shelter with scraps. I am active with a "get off drugs" group of teens. I serve as a volunteer with the Boy Scouts of America regional staff.
I have 189 sky-diving jumps, have raced motor-cycles and also raced SCCA long ago. Been around Talledega raceway at 190 MPH in a 4 cylinder 16 valve English built Chevron. I still manage to trout and bass fish ocassionally and am active with several charities of which I tithe 10% of my annual income.
There are 3,153,600 seconds in a year excluding leap year. I have about 120 seconds left to pursue other avenues. Do you have nay suggestions as to how I might spend them wisely. And remember, "I like bang for the buck"!!
BTW, are you suggesting I am a senior citizen at 57? I ain't got time to be a senior citizen...... yet! :>)
ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/7/2004 11:24 am ET by SARGE
Edited 5/7/2004 11:27 am ET by SARGE
Interesting, I've raced against Chevrons in the past, know them very well.. The fastest I've gone is 155 down the back stretch at Elkhart Lake (but then 155 in a forty six year old car is a lot more interesting than a similar speed in the much more modern Chevron) But I digress, retirement is more a state of mind than something that actually happens..
As for the comment about being a senior citzen, if you are old enough to get an ARRP card then you too are an old foggy like me.. The fact that you are a few months older than me doubles my pleasure at the anouncement! ;-)
Edited 5/7/2004 6:14 pm ET by FDAMPIER5
Fenchy
"Double your pleasure, double your fun, Double-Mint-Double-Mint- Double-Mint Gum" !
You card carrying ARRPie's should remember that one. I read about it somewhere in one of those ole-timey books. he..he...
If you don't quit bringing up this "old" stuff, I ain't gonna be you're friend anymore. :>)
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/8/2004 2:03 am ET by SARGE
OK Sarge,
You're not old you're just middle age,
Let's see that means that you need to live to be 114 doesn't it?
I mean the middle of 114 is 57 isn't it? ;-)
Frenchy
Been spiking that metamusil behind your wifes back again, huh! And she's still wondering how you stay so fiesty..
What did you say her e-mail address is?
:>)
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Martha, probably 25 years ago I bought, at a flea market, an old Stanley #3 (a smallish bench plane, nothing fancy). I didn't learn until years later that the screws holding the knob and tote were incorrect, and the reason both were always a bit loose... If you buy an old plane at a flea market, and I'm certain others will have better suggestions, the blade is cheap, so even if trashed, don't discount it. Often times I've found the blade pitted badly, and the chip breaker also in tough shape (but also cheap). There's bunches of other stuff, but to get nice shavings at the very least you'll need a good blade and chipbreaker, and a method of sharpening them both... Lots of choices there.
That #3, and a random low-angle block plane are the two that I reach for most often.
Ed
I would post a quickie to Martha that you accidentally posted to me instead and the post #. I'm sure she would appreciate.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Aw darn, Sarge's getting all testy on me ;-) who else can I go insult today...
French
Actually, I spend little time thinking about it at all as you probably already know. I don't have time to give it much thought. The other day I had to edit a post to you cause I posted 59. Had to go back to put 58 after thinking about it. ha.. ha...
I am actually 56 at the moment I think upon further thougth. I won't be 57 till Oct. I believe. Well I was born in Oct. of 47'. You figure it out. I went almost two years back in my forties thinking I was a year older than I was.
Try Jon A. on the insult. I think you know the exact word that will crank his engine and I won't mention it here.
:>)
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 5/8/2004 8:16 pm ET by SARGE
Sarge,
the Ferrari-Fiat analogy falls short in 2 critical areas:
1) is the Ferarri more fun to drive than the Fiat? Most certainly.
2) is the Ferrari holding it's value better than the same year Fiat? Most certainly.
A 3rd point is for the single guys... can you bait more females with the ferrari than the fiat... I'd bet you could.
Value is a more complex equation than simply what something costs. BTW, I drive a Chevy truck as well, it's fine for me.
Sarge... I hear what you're saying re maintaining your margins, but coming from the other side of the pond, I've a slightly different angle on the arguement. Much though I'd love to buy direct, the mark ups involved in shipping and import duty would more than negate any savings over retail price. So much so that I suspect that I wouldn't have the range if L-N's that I enjoy currently.
As for Ferrari's v's.......... personally... I'll stick with my auld Landrover. Never need worry bout speding tickets nor whether my fancy paint job's gettin dirty neither. And I'd love to see the Ferrari that can haul a load of roughsawn stock and still ooze street cred.
;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike
I hear your angle and concur. See my next post to Jim. The exception to wholesale if I were in LN's shoes is the outside the U.S. market. They, nor the customer can afford the duties, shipping and customs paper-work one has to go through to make a single purchase feasible.
The distributor is the solution in this case. He buys in volume and a one time paper trail. Once he's got it, he adds his mark-up and you deal with them as you would any other purchase locally.
I hear's ya... ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
I know this tread started as LN or LV having both and perparing most of my stock by hand I find the two planes I use the most is an E.C.E scrub and E.C.E. jack. I find for me they are more comfortable and for and old man with arthritis comfort is everything. Dose the E.C.E do a better job of course not but they seem to be more comfortable in my hand while flatening the face of rough stock so I fine these are the two I use the most.
Scott T.
Scott
I have used and may buy the E.C.E Primus try in the future. The wooden planes do move smoother, especially in the 24" try lenght. I believe you are correct in your assessment. They are a nice piece of work. I want to explore them, C&W and a few others in the future.
Now if we could just convince those plane companies to throw in a bottle of aspirin or equilvalent for the joints they would increase sales. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Since you are interested in German wooden planes, in the long run as to the scrub and joiner etc. they are fine... but there is a difference when it comes to final smoothing . The smoothers are bedded at 50° so it does give you a good surface, but the weight of the plane is less, so on easy grain they are a dream, but on tricky grain the lack of weight has to be made up in muscle. As such on a big job they are more tiring to use to get a good finished surface.
Philip
Phillip
Thanks for the tips on the "woodies". I have had a test run with the E.C.E. Primus 24" jointer and it was a nice ride. It was on walnut. I have not used the shorter jacks or smoothers yet, but see where the mass could present an issue with tough stuff.
I have enough short iron on hand to handle the job of the jack down as I was mainly interested in the longer jointer. I will test it on some really dense wood before I leap as it does pay to play the field and do your home-work,
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Yeah ,you wouldn't believe how ugly that roof rack that I have to mount on my Ferrari is every time I have to go to the lumber yard... and how many times I bottom out on bumps when it's loaded with 1000kg of rough sawn cherry. It almost makes me want to sell it ad buy an old truck.
Philip
Not to mention the lousy fuel mileage and the cost of an engine rebuild every 50,000 miles or less..
ahhhhh......well..... I canna say I know about the bottoming out... but I do know from ugly..... mind you... if anythin, that roofrack o mine made the auld girl look better... if that's possible...
improved the aerodynamics though..... 0-60 in two months... rather than 3...
;)
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 5/7/2004 6:50 pm ET by Mike
Frank
I was at the Sacto WW show on Saturday. It was all I could do to keep from taking my wallet out as I passed the Lie-Neilsen booth.
I have five of their planes, including the 60 1/2R, which I use as my everyday block plane. I also have the Bronze 102 that I keep in my apron pocket.
I had the opportunity to take a dovetail class last month from an instructor who also has 4 classes a year for making wooden planes. When I showed him my 164 Low Angle Smoothing Plane he was amazed at the quality and the chip it made. When I told him it was fresh out of the box, he smiled and said "wow"!
I have yet to "tune" any of these planes and consistently get shavings that are less than paper thin.
_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"Let no one be slow to seek wisdom when he is young nor weary in the search of it when he has grown old." Epicurus
Let me add a little bit of controversy to the topic: in the last couple of years I have witnessed Veritas introducing products that look to me like copies of existing products. They have a marking gauge with micro-adjustment like the Tite-Mark, a spokeshave like the Bogg shave of Lie-Nielsen and higher quality hand-planes. Granted their plane design is original but it feels to me like they follow proven successful recipes. Agreed also that I never tried a Veritas plane but next time I shop for one I will stick to Lie-Nielsen. This is my way of rewarding a company that dared going this path when no one else was producing quality hand-plane anymore.
Again this is only my 2 cents...
Eric
eric
And you have every right to stay loyal to LN and pay the extra. I never suggested that anyone should spend their money the way I want them too. I was just proposing the point that their are alternatives for those that are looking for excellent end results at a price that might be more affordable. Even the Veritas might be more than they can afford and there are alternatives that still get bottom line results which are even cheaper if you don't mind getting your hands dirty and breaking a little sweat.
I have no loyalty towards tools. I shop for what will give me the best "bang for the buck". I have 5 Veritas planes, a LN Indepence DT saw and am currently eyeing a LN low jack. If that turns out to be the best "bang for the buck" then LN it will be. Hate to be that way, but the economy puts me in that position. I cannot justify "robbing Peter (my family) to pay Paul (whoever)". I did not personally put the economy in it's current state and I won't single-handely be the source of it's recovery. I have just have to deal with reality, not the way I wish it could be.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
I agree with your reasoning. I was merely proposing an additional parameter in the decision process. By the way I do not apply it when it comes to power tools.
Cheers,
Eric
I hope you're a Mac user... :-)
Charlie
I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
I'm also a Mac user. Switched about 15 years ago.
Charlie,
I don't buy computers anymore, I buy tools instead ;) but the few ones I bought were Mac...
Eric
Eric -
With respect - you've got all your timelines backwards...and your perspective is quite skewed...
We've made wheel gauges years before Tite-mark - based on a very early Stanley design - but improved. We considered, but did not make, a micro-adjust version. I personally feel a micro-adjust is flat out not worth the additional cost - but we caved to consumer demand and added a model recently.
The first "Boggs" shave was designed and produced by Veritas - There's virtually nothing shared between the between the current "Boggs" version, and the shaves we produce - other than they both have wood handles.
Finally - Veritas (and Lee Valley) have been making planes before LN was established. Firstly under subcontract (the "Paragon" line made in the UK) and later the redesigned #95. Granted we did not build a line as quickly as LN did - but there was a not a pressing need for us to do so either.
Given that no single plane in our line is a reproduction of any other existing plane - and that Veritas currently has over 100 patents in the woodworking hand tools area, one of the largest R&D staffs in the industry - and state of the art production facilities - the only "proven successful recipe" we follow is to produce carefully considered and designed products, efficiently, and a price performance point which is unmatched.
Frankly - the path we've taken is a far more more challenging and risky one -
Normally - I don't participate in discussions of preference - and I certainly respect them. Your post, however, is purely speculative ...
There's your two cents back....
Sincerely -
Rob Lee
Buy one of the smaller L-N products and see what you think. I'd recommend the low-angle block plane. It's a great tool and it won't cost as much as the 4 1/2.
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