Below is a link to a recently completed review on the Veritas 20 tpi dovetail saw. Comparison was made with the 14 tpi Veritas.
http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/veritas20tpisaw.htm
Hoping it is interesting and generates some discussion …
Regards from Perth
Derek
Replies
Very thorough and well presented.
Sounds like a good saw for small box and thin drawer work.
Derek, nice review and well done. Sounds like an ideal saw for small boxes and thin walls.
Question, I have seen in your other posts that your bench has some splits an old holes that are filled with dowels. Just curious how they came to be... hysterical historical question.
Thanks Morgan
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Hi Morgan
Ha! My bench is about 14 years old. It was built from recycled Karri roof trusses. Very hard and very dry. Over the years the top has been used and abused... I look after but do not baby tools. As much as I crave a fine (and longer) bench, it gets put off as projects have a higher priority. About a year ago the bench was soaked following a rain storm, and the nice ultra dry boards warped. Hence the cracks and abuse the top is showing ...
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Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,Very nice, I learned a ton, thanks. I try to practice the "Adam" approach, only I call it the Philip Lowe approach ( suspect it precedes both these gentleman), using a bench on bench set-up. I'm curious if you varied your approach over the several cuts...and if it negated the differences in rake degrees?
About a year ago the bench was soaked following a rain storm
Now that is a totally over the top, nightmare opening line for a new Woodworking Book
101 things to avoid in your shop.....
Yikes can't imagine what your tools looked like as well. Hard to visualize a scenario where getting your bench wet could be anything but a disaster. A few cracks one can live with.
Morgan
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So that's how to "antique" a workbench!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Derek:
That was one of the best written and pictorially informative reviews I've read in quite a while. It was good enough to get me to order both the 14 and the 20.
By the way, since you don't sell your wooden planes, I'm trying my luck at making my own. I bought David Finck's book on making wood planes, which I've been reading and will start with a 12" jack plane. It'll be a couple of weeks, or maybe a little sooner, before I get started since I had a hernia repair today.
Congratulations on a great review.
Jim
Thanks Jim. Now be sure to post pics of your planes when they are done!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Enjoyed your writeup on the Veritas saw. Often, reviews contain comparisons with tools of a similar nature. Of course, the real question is: which set of tools is most useful to compare it to. You chose two saws which are quite similar to the Veritas. Lets think about a few others. Those that occur to me are:
1) the Gent's saw - the reason is that Ray Pine uses one, and I have checked out his dovetails, and they are very very nice. Besides, the gent's saws usually sell for around $10 or $12. Ray gives us an existence proof that one does not need to spend more than $12 for a dovetail saw that can make dovetails in some of the best furniture in the world. AND THAT IS SAYING SOMETHING. Chris Gonchour did an article comparing different dovetail saws for FWW. He included a number of English/Western style saws and gent's saws (very interesting) but no dozukis (which disappointed me since that is what I was using.)
2) the Bow Saw - A gent named Tag Frid was a pretty fair woodworker, and he used a bow saw. He might well have been the most well known and influential teacher of woodworking in the history of the world (please note that I never exaggerate :-) A bow saw can be made for a small sum, so there is really no reason to buy one. So now we have two very inexpensive saws, that were used by some pretty good woodworkers, and they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that $65 is A LOT OF MONEY for a dovetail saw.
Note that in FWW's article entitled "Sawing by Hand", by Tage Frid, he shows photos of three dovetail saws: a gent's saw, an offset gent's saw, and a dozuki. In the neighboring photo, he is using a bow saw to cut dovetails. I enjoyed this article by Frid.
3) a dozuki - I learned on a cheap dozuki. Those things cut like the wind, and can do a great job. They have been positively reviewed in FWW and elsewhere. Again, these can be had quite inexpensively. Some say that the teeth are hard, and tend to break off. So far, I have not found any such problem, and I have used hard maple.
4) Rob Cosman's new $250 dovetail saw which features 22 tpi at the tip for easy starting (for those who need it), and 15 tpi for the rest of the saw. Rob added a heavy Corian handle so that you don't have to use any downward pressure. You just let the saw do the work. I noted on Rob's website, that the saw comes "cradled in a beautifully hand crafted Walnut presentation/storage case." I have noticed that you like presentation cases, so you might consider this a plus.
But the Cosman saw might be considered "high priced" compared to the new Veritas, the gent's saw, the bow saw and the dozuki. At lest it seems so, at first glance. But in the long run, it may be the folks who buy the Cosman saw who have the last laugh. It could just be that in ten years, these saws go for VERY HIGH prices at shows for tool afficianados. THIS COULD NOW BE THE BARGAIN OF THE CENTURY, when it comes to life cycle cost.
5) the Model Maker's saw - I noticed this one day while working away (and I use that term loosely) at Woodcraft. The Woodcraft website says: "this is a serious saw. Whether you're cutting 1/12 scale dovetails for miniatures, or fine joints in full size furniture you'll appreciate the smooth, hair fine kerf this saw produces.
Ain't that a hoot. You can reverse the blade so that you can use it as a pull or a push saw. AND THE PRICE IS A MEASILY $22. You talked about the need for a saw for making dovetails in smaller drawers. Well, the model maker's saw takes that idea to new heights, allowing you to use it to make dovetails on dollhouse furniture.
Well, those five saws might make a fine review article for FWW when they do their next dovetail article, along with the Veritas, of course. FWW has done lots of articles on dovetailing and dovetail saws. I believe I remember one in which three people had their favorites and they were: an English style saw, a dozuki, and a something else. The conclusion I got from that article was that anything can do the job, so use what you like. Of course, that isn't helpful if you don't know what you like. Ha ha ha.
SO, lots of words, as usual. What about conclusions. But what stands out to me in all of this?
1) There is little doubt that one can cut excellent dovetails with saws that are quite inexpensive, much more inexpensive than the new Veritas.
2) Lee Valley has done something which is WONDERFUL. They have used new technology to come up with a saw that works well, and costs less than many other good saws (eg Lie Nielsen, Adria, Wentzloff, etc.) This could either be a one time thing, or it could be the harbinger of a new wave of good tools at cheaper prices based on the use of new technology. Of course, LV also came up with a highly expensive block saw a while back, so we can't yet tell which direction, if any, that LV is headed. I SURE HOPE IT IS TOWARD THE USE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY TO MAKE BETTER TOOLS MORE CHEAPLY.
3) The important thing about cutting dovetails is not the saw, but the skills of the user, and by that, I don't just mean in sawing the pins and tails. If you are going to do a lot of this, you need to learn how to sharpen your saw and tune it well. My definition of "a great woodworker" which is not shared by many, is a person who can go into someone else's workshop and build masterpieces. As you said to me recently, "tools are only tools". If you know how to handle hand saws, you can probably cut wonderful dovetails with any dovetail saw which is in good shape.
4) When I see the work of outstanding, creative woodworkers, such as Michael Gregorio (http://www.mgregorio.com/lisa.html), or Michael Hurwitz (https://www.finewoodworking.com/item/19284/pro-portfolio-michael-hurwitz-planks-into-poetry) , I feel that the particular dovetail saw that those woodworkers use in creating these large sets of masterpieces is an extremely minor factor in his ability to create masterpieces.
5) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - Dovetailing is almost as strong as sharpening when it comes to a topic which can keep woodworkers talking longer and more animatedly than almost any other topic.
The end. I hope you got a kick out of some of the ideas I have presented. Please note that I did not disagree with what you wrote. I simply looked at other facets of the topic of dovetail saws. If anything, my thoughts expand on yours, and would not have even been born had not been for the impetus of your excellent article. keep up the good work. You have the ability to make my mind go into overdrive. And that is a good thing. The mind is a wonderful thing for a woodworker to use. I hope you can tell that I think the fact that LV came out with these three new saws is a very good thing. It should make other sawmakers do some critical thinking. (I don't mean this in a mean way.)
Have fun.
Mel
PS if you haven't been to the websites that I entered above for Hurowitz or Gregario, I strongly recommend both. I was absolutely astonished and blown over by the beauty of their work, the variety of their work, their abilty to continually generate new and different masterpieces, .........
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Edited 12/3/2009 6:27 pm ET by 9619
Edited 12/3/2009 6:49 pm ET by 9619
Mel , Realy like that Hurwitz stuff.
Tom
Tom,
Glad you like the Hurowitz stuff. I am amazed by the fact that he does so many different types of things, and different types of materials, and then goes and figures out how to use marble and the material that he poured and then hardened, etc. He doesn't ask others how to do these things. He takes the initiative to figure out how do make his hands do what his mind envisions. AND HIS MIND ENVISIONS one beautiful thing after another. I don't know how to get to where he is, but I am sure that I will not get there unless I never again think about sharpening and M&T joints and dovetails and whether I need a small or medium shoulder plane. I know a guy here in Virginia who learned woodworking back in Iran in the days of the Shah. He builds anything that anyone sketches for him, and he does it with whatever tools exist at the shop he is working in. WOW. I AM AMAZED by this guy. I run down to the store if I need a different sized wrench. He just looks in the box, pulls out a few things, and everything gets made well. He is not so much a designer, as a builder of what you design. To me, the ultimate in fine woodworking, is the designer/maker - folks like Hurowitz or David Savage or Kintaro Yazawa, or Michael Gregorio. It is interesting. When I read their stuff, or listen to them, I never hear anything about tools, just about interesting new designs. I wonder if that is part of achieving the level they are at. I continue to search for this elusive "How"?. I try different ideas and test them here on Knots. I rarely get much positive feedback on my ideas, but that is probably because they are all wrong. :-) So I continue to search and try. By the way, I am painting my "turkey chair", which I designed (so to speak). It has turkey feet that are almost two feet long, and a carved turkey-feather back, and appropriately is being painted the Virginia Tech colors. So it is really a Hokey, not a turkey. If this is the state of my design ability and I want to get to the Gregorio level, I have a long way to go, but that won't stop me from posting photos of my turkey chair here when it is finished. Ha ha ha.Have fun. Glad you wrote. Glad you like the good stuff.
MelPS I am not "anti-tool" as a few folks have insinuated. I love tools. I couldn't operate without them. I just focus on getting to the point at which I can focus on the piece of furniture, because using the tools are "second-nature" to me.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel.. Mornin' to ya...
I bought the Veritas 14 tpi when they first brought it out. A very nice saw but I found it hard to start the cut. I do not use any special method to start the cut but my own. Whatever that is?
I loved derekcohen's review. I'm into technical things....
I still tend to like my L'Cheepo Dozuki better. #Sorry, I got mine at Rockler, not Woodcraft.#
I do admit that I find the Dozuki blade a 'bit' thin. 0.25mm. The Veritas 0.50mm. I think that the extra thickness makes it easier to begin the cut straighter IF I do not mess up the start cut.
EDIT: Been known to do the 'start cut' with my Japanese saw and finish off with the Veritas........
Now if I only had a 14 tpi pull cut Veritas!
Most of my saws are Japanese pull cut. I just find that they work great and use to using them.
NOTE: I have had 'broken teeth' in hardwoods with a sharp change in grain direction or a knot. But then again I would assume I was EDIT: cutting.. more aggressively than I should be at the time.
I have had the same Dozuki for several years and it still cuts nicely. OK, so not a saw I use every day. It just works when I NEED IT!
So which saw are you going to get Freddie for Christmas?
Other things:
Not much babysitting since both girls are in school. I MISS them!
A few weeks ago I went to watch the girls doing their demonstrations for Taekwondo. They have taken weekly classes since they could walk. They just LOVE it! Their instructor is very strict but the kids love him? Now how does a grandpa or parent do that? NA.. They are perfect little ladies unless they get together and think of something to do....
Anyway, a Taekwondo Master from Korea was there for the demos of all the grades (Child to Adult). He spent some time with the little ones. The instructor told us he never talks with anybody. I guess he is just getting very old and realized that little children are special.
Edited 12/7/2009 12:30 pm by WillGeorge
Edited 12/7/2009 12:33 pm by WillGeorge
WG,
I was just trying to liven up the discussion on dovetail saws. Glad the girls are having fun with Taekwando. Good exercise, and you learn self discipline too. Got Freddy a train set for Christmas. He is a train nut.I really enjoy the little guy. He is straightforward. He hides nothing. If he wants something, you know. If he doesn't, you know. I guess it is just like here on Knots, ha ha ha ha ha. I just made a "penny shooter", actually four of them. You put a penny in a slot, and then pull back on a rod which is connected to a rubber band. When you do that, the penny drops down. Then you pull back a little more on the rod, and LET GO! The penny shoots out the front, and rolls a long way on the floor. Why four? I have two grandkids now, and two on the way. Can't cheat any of them, can I?Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Penny shooter huh?
I heard Timmy Geithner has one of those. His shoots treasury bonds all the way to China!
Ray
Ray,
When Geithner sees my penny shooter, he will quake in his penny loafers. It was fun to do something different, and make a mechanical, rubber-band driven toy. I am going to make a few of them, and store them up for giving to appropriate grandkids (that would be all of them) at an inappropriate time (before they can actually control them). BUT BETTER STILL -- I have just repaired the Stella guitar that I bought as a freshman in high school (in 1956, just after guitars were invented). I used it for two years, when my instructor suggested the drums, since they don't have to be tuned. Part of the back had come unglued (hide glue), and a strip along the left bottom back side of the figure eight (the body) was broken off. My father once admitted to this accident. Well, the manager of the local Woodcraft store teaches a guitar making course, and he had a bunch of "spool clamps" which are special clamps used for attaching the front and back of a guitar to that fig-8 piece. First I glued the part that had come unglued. Then I made a piece to fit the missing piece EXACTLY. You would have been proud, and glued that in.But the broken-off piece was not a clean break....... So I took my trusty shoulder plane (LN, of course, the small metal one, not the infill), and laid it on its side on the side piece of the guitar, and got the break straight and even in about ten light passes. The only way you can tell which is the old guitar wood and which is the piece I added is to notice that the guitar is painted, and the piece I added is unpainted ( a dead givaway). I have now obtained some paint of the correct color (black) and am about to begin the final part of the refurbishment of this early musical instrument. In the middle of all of this, I have been painting the turkey (Hokey) chair the Virginia Tech colors. I got em at Home Depot. I showed my wife the first coat of the crimson color, and she asked why I bought "Hot Pink" paint. That gave me a hint that things weren't right. So I trucked on down to Home Depot and negotiated a free replacement can of paint of a more appropriate color. Mary Beth has blessed this second attempt. I can't wait to see what the Orange will look like. This is gonna be a winner - the first chair in history with turkey feet that are almost two feet long!!!!! That guy, David Savage, really got me to thinking about "design" and urged me to "think outside of the box". ((I don't think this is what he intended. :-)Photos will show up here in a few weeks.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, the problem with teaching kids tothrow/shoot money around like that is that they grow up into Congress persons. Pretty soon, they're throwing $trillions around as if it was nothing. ;-)
A penny gun! It reminds me of the old Christmas Story movie (I watch it EVERY year)..
You'll shoot your eye out! I had a Red Rider BB Gun!
I made some rubber band guns for my little Ladies.. Mom would not let me give to them? OK, MOM is the boss of her children...
And.. Glad the girls are having fun with Taekwando. Good exercise, and you learn self discipline too.
They are such little ladies (mostly) and still a small child that likes fun.. They like my house because I let them do things indoors that Mom would not allow!
My younger girl, by one year, can kick so high I think her leg will break off. And she can do the splits... Dang, if I tried that I would end up in the ER!
My older baby sure would be acrobat!
They are from different parts of China.. They love each other and are Sisters.. Sisters can be a big fight when they are older?
Edited 12/8/2009 2:00 pm by WillGeorge
WG,
My grandfather lost an eye in a childhood accident. I know what you are saying. These little penny shooters I made are pretty tame. They cause a penny to roll across a floor. But your warning is a good one.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
derek,
Back in Oct. I purchased/upgraded to the 20 tpi Dovetail and 16 tpi Crosscut saws and they have performed very well for me. Of course anything would be an upgrade compared to what I was using. :-)
I really like how balanced they are and are sooooo comfortable in use. I need to focus on not being so aggressive with them, i.e. let the saw do the work. Practice, practice and more practice as they say.
They are a pleasure to use.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I need to focus on not being so aggressive with them..
Yes.. I mostly use Japanese saws and if you get carried away you can break off teeth.
But what do I know?
Another nicely-done review, Derek. Sure to be of interest to "pushy" dovetailers. My 27 TPI dozuki, on the other hand, is already paid for. ;-)
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