I am planning on using plastic resin glue on biscuits. I need a long glue set time.
I have never done this before and wonder if I am asking for trouble. Will the biscuits swell enough to hold properly? Do I need to extra glue or less glue?
The glue recommends minimum 70 deg. or above. My basement is about 62 deg. in the winter, is this going to be a problem?
Replies
You could regrind your biscuits cutter "bit" ( just file it some with a diamond file ) to cut narrower slots. You would not want to use it with glue that then has water in it because it would swell so much you would get worse lumps in your panels. I don't use biscuits but in the last project it would have helped with alignment of the planks to make up the slab.
As I understand it the biscuits won't swell at all if there is no water present in the glue.
>minimum 70 deg
Call the glue maker. But minimum means minimum to me. You could use epoxy. The lower temp tends to just take the cure time from like a day to two or more days. Depends on the epoxy. Slower epoxies are stronger.
Search this site for glue info there are some great articles !
here is one to get you started.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Materials/MaterialsPDF.aspx?id=28897
Good night and good luck
roc
Edited 2/4/2009 9:13 pm by roc
The biscuits will be fine if you're careful not to get sloppy cutting the slots. If you feel they're a bit loose, you can store them in a higher humidity location for a few days prior to use and they'll "thicken up" for ya. (A damp sponge in an airtight plastic container where the biscuits are stored will work.)
I wouldn't go below the recommended temps for the glue, tho'.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike,>store them in a higher humidity. . . they'll "thicken up" for ya. (A damp sponge in an airtight plastic container where the biscuits are stored will work.)<Firstly I bow to your experience and expertise.I ask for my own info and not to flame you so please, please don't take this wrong. The only biscuit experience I have is the smallest little picture frame dudes, can't remember the number, that is how out of touch I am.But.Being of overly " gear head and vernier caliper measure it to a thou mentality " I ask . . .How can one control this to where one does not end up with biscuits that won't go into the slots when crunch time comes mid glue up ? Or maybe it isn't an issue.roc
Well, they're biscuits, not clock gears. "Sir! I need you to put the callipers down and step away slowly!" ;-) (I think you have me confused with someone with abnormally thin skin, BTW. LOL.)
All you want is a little snug, if that. Personally, I've never had a problem with biscuits not fitting -- they should just slip in easily with hand pressure, but can get snug enough to take a bit of tapping to seat them. No big deal either way. The swelling is a luthier's trick. No hard & fast rules. The looser they are, the wetter you make the sponge/longer you let 'em sit. I'd do a few and check 'em after an hour or two and judge from that. (If they get too thick, you can always put em in the microwave for a few seconds to dry them out again.)
Just test fit before you apply the glue. They should be just tight enough so they don't fall out if you turn 'em over, but NBD if they're a bit looser -- or tighter. In fact, if you have a whole sleeve of biscuits, you'll find that there is some minor variation in thicknesses -- you may find that you can simply try a bunch and select the ones you like and not worry about resizing them.
But as another poster said, biscuits are good for only gross alignment anyway and, depending on your application, may not be particularly needed (or even particularly helpful.)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
My basement's cold too. When I glue up bent laminations with that glue, I drape an old mover's blanket over the form and stick a lightbulb (plugged in and turned on) inside. I have an indoor/outdoor thermometer that I use to keep an eye on the temp. It gets to about 90. In the morning everything is nice and warm, and the glue is cured.
>have me confused with someone with abnormally thin skin<I am learning I have been overly brash lately ( only the last thirty of forty years ) and so am making an endeavor to be " sweeter ". I call it humorous interaction but others have other names for it. : )>do a few and check 'em after an hour or two and judge from that<Ah the old test fit before putting on the glue ploy ( said inspector Cluso (pink panther movie)). Very clever ; very clever indeed . I should have realized such intellects were at work here : )> biscuits are good for only gross alignment anyway . . . sleeve of biscuits, you'll find that there is some minor variation in thicknesses . . . , depending on your application, may not be particularly needed (or even particularly helpful.)<Sounds like for my alignment application I should just cut slots and make my own stock to fit. Thanks for clarifying why biscuits are less than ideal for alignment. Like I said haven't used them much just heard there are problems with accurate edge joint alignment but wasn't clear on issues.I was operating on faith that all of them could be made to turn out right and just plunk them in.I just heard a quote from Emily Dickinson " Faith is a fine invention when gentlemen can see but microscopes are prudent in an emergency."That's me I guess rocEdited 2/5/2009 4:42 pm by roc
Edited 2/5/2009 4:47 pm by roc
You shouldn't have trouble with the 62° temperature. I use Dap plastic resin glue all the time for bent laminations for the long open time, and I keep my shop between 60° and 65°, depending on how much hand work (sweating) I'm doing that day.
As far as the biscuits go, I can't see a reason to use them in the first place. There are many other better choices for joinery assistance than biskits.
Jeff
I have found anything above 90 degrees too hot for PR glue. It will kick off too fast, and turn into useless gel-like junk. Also, really high humidity wont help either. So as long as your not in the south, in the summer, you will be ok. I have used PR glue many times with biscuits slots cut with a porter-cable and had no problems.
"I am planning on using plastic resin glue on biscuits. I need a long glue set time." This is the part of your plan I don't understand. How much time do you need? Open time for Titebond III is 10 minutes. Also, it's good to 47* and extremely water resistant when it's cured.
I know you said "set time" not "open time" but it seems that extended open time relates to needs of vacuum veneering. Doesn't really fit with biscuits. What's up?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 2/5/2009 11:50 am by forestgirl
Plastic Resin (urea formaldehyde) adhesive is a water based adhesive. It will work as well with biscuits as any other waterbased adhesive like yellow glue. No need for anything special.
As to temperature, 70 degrees or above is absolutely required for that type of adhesive. Either warm up your gluing area or warm everything up, do up the gluing and then cover it with an old electric blanket. Or, build a sort of plastic tent and put a small electric heater in it along with the glue up.
Wow ! Quite the range of experiences here. Glue info fascinates me so this is all good stuff.roc ( who has a cold shop, is busy cutting and pasting into his "How to Glue" files. ) Thanks
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