I have watched Garrett Hack’s video over on FWW site several times. About a minute in he pulls out a beet looking medium India stone. He describes it briefly as a med stone that is glazed over and then coated with diamond paste. The effective cutting grit he feels is about 1000g.
Here is a link to the video:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=28819
He of course leaves out the important detail of what paste he used and more specifically what size grit. I imagine somewhere around 10 micron.
Has anyone here come across any more information on this sort of approach? Some reffer to this sort of thing as supercharging, but I thought that was mostly with comparable grit size to the stone. In the case of a medium India the particle size is something like 45 micron.
Replies
Garrett Hack described finishing with 1 micron diamond paste on Cherry ..
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 2/13/2009 12:30 am ET by derekcohen
Do not use a glazed stone. Use a block of maple. This person goes into it here.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011157036.pdf
A truly great article on sharpening.
You may also cut a gouge for each chisel in a block of wood and use this to sharpen your gouges.
For plane blades I just work up through the grits to 8000 and that is about all that is needed. I have the various diamond pastes but no longer use them. I wouldn't mind having a 16,000 stone but it would be more for my pleasure of looking at an even better mirror finish on my blades than much real cutting improvement.
roc
Do not use a glazed stone. Use a block of maple... Ditto..
Or Kangaroo hide if you can find it someplace.I understand it is used to make bullwhips!
Nice article roc. Thanks for the link.
Coincidentally, yesterday I posted this oneto my website:
Stropping with Green Rouge verses Diamond Paste
Regards from Perth
Derek
What makes a decent strop?
I'd say from your work what YOU say! And then again I use a felt grinding wheel (at high speed) with Carnauba wax on it. But I have did? stupid things all my life!
Derek,
when you put the mineral oil on the strop, do you rub it in with a circular motion,
or do you use a back and forth motion?How many fingers do you use, and how much pressure?
I would not be difficult to obtain s sensor to mesure finger pressure.You use scented mineral oil. I used unscented.
I wonder if there is a difference. Maybe you should re-do the experiment with unscented mineral oil. And then try Magic Mystery Oil. I use that on my oilstones, but I haven't tried it on my strop yet. I thought that a previous thread would be the last thread ever on sharpening. I was wrong. Have fun.
MelPS why don't you do an article about a spinning piece of round wood with leather glued on, and honing compound on the leather, and a bolt up through the wood. Use two nuts. (one on top and one on the bottom), and then use it in a drill press at low speed. Oh, the leather side should face up, unless the woodworker is very very short, then the bottom would be better. That really works nicely for carving tools. For chisels and plane irons, I use an 18" leather strop (smooth side up) with green honing compound and unscented mineral oil. I am experimenting with different amounts of oil on the strop, and after coordinating with Mr. Beach, I may try to publish this definitive work. I am also experimenting with different lengths of strop. I have used 17", 18", and 19" strops but I find no differences. But I may once I get the electron microscope that I have ordered. Also, I may see if measuring in the metric system has any effect on the stropping system. PPS - if anyone reads this and thinks for an instant that any of it is meant seriously, please think about leaving woodworking and trying another hobby.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, you asked ..
How many fingers do you use, and how much pressure? I would not be difficult to obtain s sensor to mesure finger pressure.
I only have one finger on each hand, so I just use the one. Every now and again I lift it up to the drafts to dry out. Passers-by look at me and swear. I am not sure why.
I must bow my head guiltily and acknowledge (this is painful for me but I must admit ..) that I haven't measured the downforce when applying oil to the strop. Where did you get your fingerdownforcemeter?
You use scented mineral oil. I used unscented.I wonder if there is a difference. Maybe you should re-do the experiment with unscented mineral oil. And then try Magic Mystery Oil.
You and I are cut from the same cloth, Mel. I had this idea to use honey. They say you can attract a lot of bears with honey. But none came. Obviously I was told a falsehood. I was instead visited by many ants - unfortunately ants are no substitute for oil when it comes to liquifying green rouge. So I ate the strop.
I thought that a previous thread would be the last thread ever on sharpening. I was wrong.
Nah, this is the last one ... until the next one. Then that will be the last one (until the next one. Then that will ....).
Regards from Perth
Derek (off to take his medication)
Derek,
Thanks for the great reply. I'll try honey, and also peanut butter, which can be bought really cheaply in the USA these days.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Peanut Butter!!! Be very very careful. If you poison even one gouge the whole toolbox will be sick. Can't even imagine the mess you would have on your hands then. :p(
Rich
The Professional Termite
Edited 2/15/2009 2:32 pm ET by trialnut
Rich,
I have some old peanut butter, made before the current problem. :-) I will use that on my strop.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Flap, flap, screech...........one evil raptor lands amongst the pidgeons......
I am still trying to get my head around why woodworms are so obssessed with ultra sharp. It is:-
1)not necessary for woodworking purposes
2)counter productive because after a very very short time the edge reverts to just plain sharp ie the optimum edge which will last for a reasonable time.
3)A waste of time unless there is some other deep seated physcological reason for indulging in it.
But don't get me wrong: things must be sharp sharp and verified so by a practical means (such as my finger tip) before going into the plane or work.
I see no reason why ordinary good quality tools such as one of the Norton oil stones, or a Kingstone or a natural water stone, or a diamond plate are not able to do the job (quickly)without resorting to messy pastes , grits, exotic oils, substrates, lapping plates, granites, papers, sheets, diamond impregnated papers, separate work areas, bench top sinks, sharpening stations etc etc. Not to mention all manner of powered machines fully equipped with guides, mirrors, sine angle finders, references and cooling fluids of all types.
And I am only talking of honing or sharpening , not grinding..... and hasten to add that my idea of sharpness may be different from that of others, who may be using various (suspect) methods to gauge the condition. Some folk just hone away for some time then slap the blade back happy in the belief that because they went through the prescribed rituals for a given period of time then it MUST BE DANGED SHARP. (;)Philip Marcou
Honestly this discussion was meant only to inquire about the Hack method. He is replicating a 1000g stone, so this isn't even the fine end of things. This is just a mid-level stone. I swear it isn't a quest for the ultimate in sharp. I find straight off an 8000g Norton is sharp enough for most if not all the work I do. I can also vouch for a hard Arkansas stone, a leather strop, and then get to work.
I will admit that I spend a fair amount of time trying different sharpening mediums. I think there are good and bad approaches, but the end result is usually the same. The tools get sharp.
I am still working to find my favorite method. Overall I like oilstones. Diamonds are a great way to extend the range without introducing water to my sharpening. I do not like waterstones for many reasons. I do like how fast and keen of an edge waterstones produce. But it seems backwards to use water and then oil a blade versus just honing it in the presence of oil and wiping it off at the end.
dsb,
Simplicity + speed is the thang. I have eventually got to this (which unfortunatley costs a bit):
* Large 320 grit diamond stone to take off lots of steel where necessary, used with a guide (I like the Veritas MkII but many favour the Eclipse).
* Large 600/1200 grit diamond double-sided stone to take out nicks and reshape microbevels (guide sometimes but often freehand).
* Large diamond stone of 8000 grit to make a really sharp edge on both new (micro)bevels and worn ones needing a "strop". (Guide for new bevels and freehand for a strop)
* For curved blades such as the newly-acquired carving chisels: same process but finish with mcrogrit papers wrapped around dowels or stuck on rounded humps of the appropriate diameter; then Tormek leather wheels with honing compound on them to get super-sharp.
* If there is a difficult profile, such as a complex-curve carving or turning chisel, out comes the Tormek and it's guiding gubbins (the Tormek also does 10" planer blades).
* Massive bevel reshaping is done with the Tormek, which takes ages but gives a good result. One day I might get a grinder with a-one o' then white Norton wheels.
All this can be done dry or (better) with a bit of camelia oil. (Water for the Tormek of course). It takes only a minute or two to do everything except "massive bevel reshaping" and the 10" planer blades . In use the edges are super-sharp then sharp then just sharp enough then.....time for a hone. A new microbevel is only needed about once per 3-4 hones. A new bevel is needed once in a blue moon.
I reckon the planing/cutting to sharpening time-ratio is around 50-100 to 1. But then I likes A2 and D2, which stay usably sharp for ages, even when swooshing teak and other wearing woods.
Why bother with waterstones, which need diamond stones to re-flatten them every ten minutes anyway and create mess? As to oil stones: like using Garnet paper to sand with (slow and outdated).
Lataxe
>Derek posted stropping info<Thanks !Some times I can't believe what a bone head I am. I have never gone to your home page. I look at the posted article by you or someone else for your article. Then I think " I wonder where this is posted to on a regular basis ".Daahhh. It finally occurred to me to just delete the extra part o the address and just go to http://www.inthewoodshop.com/and their you are. At last. Cool !I don't carve so I don't strop my wood working tools much but I use the strop for kitchen knives and my pocket and exacto scalpels etc.I must remember to try/use the mineral oil. I must remember to try/use the mineral oil. I must remember to try/use the mineral oil. There. I think I finally got it cramed in my brain to stay.I am sincerely heart broke for what has happened in Australia with the fires. God ! It is so awful ! May a miracle happen to get those survivors back to the best situation possible.Whew !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Derek,OK I used the mineral oil on my leather strop to take off the minute wire edge that the 8000 stone would not take off. Soft steel ? It is a stainless Henckle paring knife. Any way I have a question. I put the oil on the green stick, rubbed it to hopefully soften the surface and took it up and down the leather.A bunch of balls of leather fibers came off and it got worse and worse. I rubbed it in with my finger so as to waste as little as possible then brushed the rest in the trash.This makes me think that you put it on the finish side of the leather. I made my strop long ago with the rough side up. Probably was recommended by somebody.Are your strops finish side up ?Before this I was just scraping dust off the yellow rouge or flakes off the green one and rubbing them in with a ceramic stick.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Hi roc
I have used it on both sides of the leather, smooth and rough. They work the same. The rough side gets smoother.
Are you pulling the blade with the grain? There is a definite directional difference in my experience. Into the grain (on the strop) raises the grain, and this can lead to the fluff you are describing. I'm not an expert here - just my observations.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I see. Thank you for responding. I go both directions. I bet I was just going against the grain when I was spreading the green stuff. That might explain it.Of course this isn't the good horse butt leather it is just some thick tooling leather I got from Tandy leather store. The strop is about a decade old though and more.Thanks I'll keep at it.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Hi derek,
I've been wanting to ask this question for a while now: Do chisels and plane blades have teeth?
If you look at a barbers straight razor with a microscope after it has been sharpened you will see teeth on the very edge and extend back onto the blade. If properly sharpened they will be at roughly a 45* angle. In this case the strop is used to clean any steel particles from within the gullets of the teeth and the blade is passed over the strop at 45* - blade facing away from the direction it is moving.
I'm curious as to whether teeth exist on a chisel and/or plane blade after sharpening and do they contribute to a sharp edge?
roc - a good barbers never run their blades into their strop. It tends to make them shorter and shorter thus defeating their purpose. This practice also tends to get a bit expensive too.
My barbers strop is actually two strips - one is a canvas like material and the other is leather, rough on one side and smooth on the other. With jewelers rouge it makes for very shiny blades.
So keep your teeth clean and don't cut your stop off!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I'll second the notion that using a honing stone as a substrate for diamond paste makes little sense - there's no real advantage over using a wooden or leather substrate, and it's a good deal more expensive. Moreover, the stone will require flattening at some point anyway, which will remove the diamond paste.
One note about the FWW article - Toshio Odate, in his book "Japanese Woodworking Tools" explains (and documents with photographs) that saying that a particular honing stone is "best" is false - it depends on the blade being honed. In particular, he notes that some natural Japanese waterstones do a superb job on Japanese chisels and plane blades, but the same stone does a very poor job on Western chisels. He attributes this to the hardness of the steel, which in the case of the Japanese blade is hard enough to break down the grit in the natural stone to a very fine paste which leaves a very uniform edge. When a western chisel was used on the same stone, the grit did not break down, and left fairly large (for an electron micrograph) gouges on the face of the bevel. He noted that the two blades after sharpening were noticeably different on wood - the Western chisel he felt was unacceptably dull.
I am surprised that this idea is such an odd notion to everyone. From what I have read on lapping so long as the substrate is soft enough for the loose grit to embed in there is little if any wear to the substrate once bedded. So flattening should be a very seldom task. A cast iron lapping plate doesn't need flattening often. You could argue that the india stone is more friable, so it could release the bedded diamonds and they would then wear on the stone's matrix. I think they would get wedged against a larger aluminum oxide particle and bed again before causing erosion.Wood and leather both have their own amounts of compression and therefore would round the edge slightly during use. Is it to a scale that would be noticeable or cause for concern? On leather with too much pressure it is. I can't answer for hard maple as I have yet to try it.Well, at any rate this is interesting discussion. For the most part I think discussion on this subject is all speculation since Garrett Hack is the only one who is looney enough to do this to a perfectly good india stone. It is unconventional and most will see it as cooky to make a 1000g substitute when there are hundreds of other 1000g stones manufactured or mined already.
"Well, at any rate this is interesting discussion. For the most part I think discussion on this subject is all speculation since Garrett Hack is the only one who is looney enough to do this to a perfectly good india stone."
This is the principal reason why it's a waste of money to do this - why buy an expensive rock when a much cheaper substrate will do an equal job?
Generally, though, both from a physics perspective and personal experience I can assure you that the substrate below a grit will indeed wear, and significantly. I used to use a piece of a granite surface plate and loose silicon carbide grit to lap the backs of chisels and plane blades. Even though the granite is quite hard, this stone dished significantly (by more than a couple of thousandths) in a couple of months - it was no longer suitable for flattening the backs of hardened steel. My next adventure was with a new granite surface plate and diamond paste - same result. I finally got smart with yet another surface plate ( got these cheaply, by the way - the digital revolution has removed their necessity in a machine shop) and started using silicon carbide grit in replaceable sheets (i.e., wet/dry sandpaper). As you might expect, the granite surface has stayed undamaged with a high polish for several years.
D, just some observations:
Granite SURFACE plates are essential in machine shops -they have merely superceded cast iron SURFACE plates.The digital revolution has certainly not removed their necessity when they are used as they are meant to be used -which is as a marking off reference and means to check straightness etc and NOT for direct lapping.
A LAPPING plate is quite different to a SURFACE plate.
A lapping plate needs to be made of a suitable grade of preferably cast iron or soft steel in order for it not to suffer abrasion from the lapping grits used (silicon carbide with kerosene or light oil). The grits imbed themselves in the surface and do not move around on that surface-therefore no wear. The abrasion is done to the work surface only, which is what is wanted. In the same way diamond paste is going to rapidly wear a bench stone because the grits are mobile on the stone instead of sticking in it....
Granite is no good as a direct lapping surface because it is too hard and the SiC grits cannot imbed themselves. But granite makes an excellent and cheap alternative to cast iron when used as a SURFACE plate or marking off plate, and any toolroom has one or more as essential equipment digital revolution or not.They are ubiquitous because they are now so cheap compared to cast iron.
Ofcourse, if you insulate the granite from the abrasive particles then it can function as a lapping plate without being abraded out of flat.
I have some practical experience of the above or I wouldn't be talking, but the functions of lapping plates and surface plates are documented in any Machinery's Handbook where they even indicate which grades of iron are suitable for lapping plates.Philip Marcou
As an addition to way Phillip said, I beleive Lee Valley sells some acrylic sheets that have adhesive on one side. Sheets are suggested to be affixed to granite surface plates as a substrate for the Lee Valley silicon carbide particles (IIRC they have four size grits available). The Sc imbeds itself correctly into the acrylic sheet.
Also, as far as price of an india stone, my Norton india medium cost arount $15.00, which is pretty cheap as far as sharpening stones go.
With both of the above said, I got to say that 1. I do not use the LV plastic sheets or Sc powder and 2. I do not use diamond paste on my india or other oil stones. I sharpen with a medium india, a translucent hard arkansas and either a few swipes on a leather strop or a honing on 1500, 2000 & 2500 grit Sc paper, all free hand.
I have grown very skeptical of what I read about woodworking. So many of the mags have nothing but talking heads repeating the same old, same old or pushing every new gadget as the latest greatest. I'm absolutely tired of the "cheerleading" that certain editors do for tools. Our ancestors made do with a fraction of the gadgets that some writers would have us buy and a far better quality of work too!
T.Z.
Ding-ding-ding, we have a winner. Yep, machinery handbook does discuss many different substrates. Granite is not a proper lapping surface for loose grit, it is too hard so the grit just rolls around wearing the plate and the steel. It will wear away metal, but will not stay flat. Proper lapping plates can be made from all kinds of metals. Although not a steadfast rule I think that typically the lapping plate is a softer material than what you are trying to flatten.Tony, mentions the plastic films sold by LV. Those are an option I have not tried. I have tried Brass sheet (.015"), contact paper (thin plastic), worn sandpaper, and even bare granite. None have really been that great. The brass was the best I have tried, but it was too thin and actually deformed under pressure and bowed ( I had it affixed to a granite slab). I think in a thicker sheet it would make an excellent substrate.
Edited 2/15/2009 11:13 am ET by dsb1829
Philip - With regards to the use of surface plates, there's no doubt that some lesser equipped machine shops still use them along with surface guages to measure things. We got rid of ours when we purchased and installed a digital video center. Starightness is now checked and evaluated with the combination of the DVC and a laser topography mapper. At the milling machines, the machinists use NIST-referenced precision-ground steel bars and the usual small calipers if necessary, but for the most part the milling machines are CNC and are calibrated often enough that it isn't necessary.
In regards to the malleable iron lapping plate, ours required re-surfacing about every 3 months - the oil slurry was more than enough to dish the plate a few thousandths. One used embedded SiC grit, the other diamond.
I used granite in my home shop because it was cheap - before Lee Valley came out with theirs, I'd have had to spend several hundred on an iron lapping plate. No doubt a superior surface for the reasons you cited, but wet/dry on a granite surface plate is better still.
"but wet/dry on a granite surface plate is better still."I keep coming back to this as well. I don't know that anything is as good in the long run for a home shop. I just have lapping grit and have been tinkering to find a use for it. No real luck yet FWIW. It is just too easy to dish or damage the substrates that I have tried.
dsb
I think Garrett Hack uses the 1 micron paste primarily on the surface of a piece of cherry to get a 12000 grit polishing surface. This seems really high on the grit charts for me. I might consider this for a plane iron or a chisel that I use to pare a thin layer off a small feature. I don't think I would go to that much trouble to get that keen an edge and moments later strike it with a mallet. Just me.
dan
>Toshio Odate and Japanese blades/stones<I never get enough of Toshio . I saw him on Martha Stewart and taped it. He is a funny guy. Great sense of humor ! I enjoy his books quite a lot.As far as the dif between western tools and the finer Japanese cutting tools I read that they use old second hand iron for the body of the blade to laminate the really hard steel to. For example, as most have seen in catalogs references to, iron from 100 year old anchors etc.The reason is the old iron from a certain period in history and older had an impurity in it that tends to freshen or abrade the sharpening stones just right to help created a better edge. Our pure modern steels lack the impurity and so do not work as well on some sharpening stones.How's that for getting toooo involved in sharpening. I love it.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Well, at any rate this is interesting discussion. For the most part I think discussion on this subject is all speculation since Garrett Hack is the only one who is looney enough to do this to a perfectly good india stone.
There might be room here to reconsider??
1. We don't know if Garrett misused a"perfectly good stone" with paste?? It could have been one he didn't use much, something he found, .... he just added paste to it to make it work a certain way for him. I don't recall him saying "add 1 micron paste to your india stone" to make it work better.
2. He uses 1 micron paste to get a surface grit somewhere near 12000 grit(think that's what he said) when he applies it the surface of a piece of cherry.
Micron paste
I have used the stuff. I have quite a bit on hand that I got from a machine shop that was closing down. The price was right for tubes of 1 micron and 6 micron paste.
I thought the 6 micron might be a bust when I bought it but it was reasonable and I was obligated to buy the lot or walk away. I'm glad I got the 6 mic.
Why am I a paste user you ask? It works well and it is very convenient for me and the work I do. I have a good many carving tools with odd shapes and sweeps. Getting all of the edges just right can be a challenge with some of the sharpening stones and carborundum devices available. In the past, I ground the carborundum tools to the shapes that I needed. Now I have 10-12 small wooden sticks with very fine corners impregnated with the diamond paste and countless dowels I turned on the lathe also covered with diamond paste. These are very valuable tools. They look black and crude but they are "just what I need" to get carving tools very sharp and maintain that micro-bevel on the tip that is so important.
This might seem unconventional to some but its just another way of honing an edge.
Unconventional: consider the way you sharpen a carving tool for a moment. Most people don't carve as much as they work with flat chisels and plane cutters. We are accustomed to setting the stone/glass/other device on the bench and running the chisel back and forth. It works. We just assume doing the same thing with carving tools is the best method again. Makes sense. Well may be I can get you to reconsider it here. Maybe.
I saw Wallace Gusler, a really talented rifle builder and furniture maker(40 years at Colonial Williamsburg) who carves like Mack Headley and Allen Breed. Really impressive work. Where he impressed me most was the way he sharpened his carving tools. He did it backwards to my way of doing it at the time.
Wallace took the gouge and laid it against the edge of the work bench in a stationary position and used his india stone like a file. He was polishing the back of the tool with the stone in his hand going back and forth. Everyone there was thinking???? What is this? He took some time to point out that this method allowed him to see the edge as he was working it. That was it for me. He then rolled the tool over to the concave side and honed it with a custom shaped stone. So that's how Wallace does it.
When I got home, I had lots of sticks(about the size of a 12" ruler) with automotive grits varing from 400-3000 glued to the sticks. Dowels of all shapes covered with sand paper. Very happy.
When I get to the feel for this method I was hooked. Along came diamond paste. It didn't replace the paper on the lower end of honing but it sure is the choice at my bench for final honing.
Another benefit to having paste is you can take it anywhere you are going to work and touch up an edge quickly. It is worth considering.
Now everybody does not like the feel of a Japanese saw. It takes some getting used to working and in some cases it just doesn't work for craftsman that are happy with the western saw. Don't change - no need.
Well diamond paste can be a bit like a lot of other things... its just another way of getting the edge sharp. Maybe it can work for you?? You'll never know if you don't try it.
From the looks of that red handled chisel Hack had in his hand, I think he might have something that works pretty well.
good luck and thanks for reading
dan
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