Replies

1. 
   Rob_Millard | Oct 19, 2001 01:46pm | #1

   *
   I have never found the jointer to be useful in removing anything but the slightest cupping, despite the claims of fellow woodworkers to the contrary. I plane all my lumber flat, by using a hand held power plane. The goal with the power plane is to remove the cup and any twist, not to establish a face that is acceptable from an appearance stand point. Once you have established a flat face, by checking it with winding sticks and straight edges you can then run it through the surface planer to thickness it. I routinely use boards the are way beyond the capacity of any jointer on the market, and my surface planer, so I continue the process using only hand planes. Once you get the hang of it, and it won’t take long, hand planes will provide a quick means to true any board, with a minimum of waste. I’d take the money for the jointer and by a good surface planer and a couple of high quality hand planes instead.

1. 
   Ron_Brese | Oct 19, 2001 03:19pm | #2

   *b From the Workshop of Ron BreseBob when most people use a jointer to remove cup they make the mistake of putting a lot of pressure on the board as they run it thru. The effect is that they remove the cup from the board as they are running it thru possibly even removing material from the center of the board, however when they release the pressure the board pops right back to it's original state. If the jointer is properly adjusted and the knives sharp, moderate pressure is all that is needed for it to work properly. If you are knowledgeable in the use of hand planes Rob Millard's technique will work very well.

1. 
   Sgian_Dubh | Oct 19, 2001 03:46pm | #3

   *Well, Rob, that's interesting, because I can often remove bad examples of twist, cast and cup from a board normally considered much too long for the machine capacity using an overhand surface planer (US jointer.) I can do the job with hand planes too. I can also do the job with just a thickness planer, a home made false bed, and wedges and the like at a push. Sometimes of course a board contains so many internal stresses that every pass reveals new stresses, and it will always 'walk all over the workshop', so to speak: occasionally there's a good reason for a board being so badly out of whack in the first place.It's true that the jointer doesn't look much of a tool- flat pair of beds and some knives spinning in a cutter block- should be simple to use, and sometimes it is. But it's a trickier tool to use than most people, especially beginners, give it credit. There are all sorts of tricks, many of which are not in books, that experienced users employ to get a board flat. Ron Brese, for example, gave a good tip in his post below. When I started woodworking I wasn't allowed to use fixed plant for the first six months- hand tools only. My first instruction on using the jointer began something like, "Sonny, you think you can screw up flattening a board with handplanes? Think of this machine as no more than big hands. All the power you need to screw up the job big time in a big hurry!" I removed the swear words, and the quote may not be exact, but it's message is essentially true. This post doesn't help Bob- he just needs a lot more practice, or an experienced instructor standing next to him. I just found your post interesting. Slainte, RJ.

1. 
   Bob_Brunswick | Oct 20, 2001 06:03am | #4

   *Thks for the feedback. I bet it will be long enough before I get a jointer that I will have the chance to try it with hand planes. I do think I was pressing down pretty hard, and was probably pressing out the board too much. My experience does remind me of an constant lesson--it always looks easier than it is. And it's easier to practice when they are your own tools.

1. 
   Rob_Millard | Oct 20, 2001 10:49pm | #5

   *This reply is to clarify my earlier posting. I have to say that I have always considered the jointer to be one of the least useful tools in a shop (at least for the type of work I do). I don’t own a jointer, and I can’t remember when I used one last (1982?). I always thought of the tool, as more trouble than it was worth for flattening a face, as it is very unwieldy for even moderately long stock, add to this stock that is cupped or twisted, and it quickly becomes quite difficult to balance all these factors. Also, the width capacity of most jointers, is at best limited. As an example, Friday I started construction of a rather ornate tall case clock. I was able to prepare (flatten, thickness and straighten one edge) all the 25 or so pieces to this clock, less the quarter columns and molding stock, in less than 4 hours, including resawing several pieces to obtain book matched stock. Had I used a jointer, I could have saved maybe ½ hour, but it would have required an expensive and space hogging 12 inch jointer, to save that ½ hour on a 3 week project. I answered the posting the way I did, not only because, that’s how I would do it, but because the questioner was concerned about removing too much material, and ending up with undersized stock, something that is highly unlikely when using hand tools to flatten the face.

2. 
   Sgian_Dubh | Oct 21, 2001 07:37am | #6

   *Rob, You weren't wrong. But I did find your answer interesting. That was all. Me? I've never had a problem with using the overhand surface planer (jointer) to get timber flat. All it takes is years of practice. "Big hands" as my original instructor dinned into me. Slainte, RJ.

3. 
   Major_H._Patterson | Oct 21, 2001 03:02pm | #7

   *R.J: when the knives on the jointer are keen and sharp, and the tables are properly adjusted,I have no problem flattening a board.Very little pressure is required. My machine is an auld 8" with a 4knife cutter head.Anything wider,I rip down the center and glue up again before final thicknessing.I would hate to be without it. ¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬

4. 
   Ron_Brese | Oct 21, 2001 03:57pm | #8

   *b From the Workshop of Ron BreseGuys what we are talking about here is methods of work. Obviously what Rob does works for him on a reliable basis therefore he can predict that time element on a given job. There is no reason for him to change. I on the other hand also have an 8", four knife ,log bed jointer that works very reliably for me, if things are not to my liking after using this tool I refine it's work quite quickly with hand planes. If you have a method that works for you stay with it until it quits working. Ron

5. 
   Jack_Woody | Oct 21, 2001 04:36pm | #9

   *Sounds like too much feed pressure to me. I've never had any luck with the method that states keep pressure on the out feed table right after the blade. Always get a bowed board. I've had better luck holding onto each end of the board. If the board is longer than the beds than try slightly more pressure at each end as it passes the cutter head than easing up after it leaves the end of the bed.A lot depends on the sharpness of the knives. If your trying to squeak out a few more boards before taking on the chore of changing the knives your only working against your self.And YES! It is really a matter of technique and learning how to use the tool. I've found that using the plastic foam covered push blocks are too much of an insulator between the stock and my hands. Difficult to determine exactly where the pressure is being applied. I made my own with sand paper stuck on where necessary.I have used the power planer/straight edge/shim through the planer methods when dealing with stock bigger than the capacity of my jointer with success.Practice!Hope this helps, Jack.

6. 
   Rob_Millard | Oct 22, 2001 04:08am | #10

   *I certainly did not mean to start such a controversy with my statement about the jointer. I freely admit that my experience with the jointer is limited. My method of flattening stock (which I have considerable experience with) is as old as woodworking itself, and I think very efficient. While a worker would be spending time shimming and aligning straightedges to run a piece through the surface planer, I could have my piece flattened with a plane and have moved on to other things. As for cutting stock to the capacity of a jointer and then re-gluing it, well that is something I don’t think, I’d do, even at gun point, but it would certainly solve the capacity limitation. I have attached a photo of a board I used for a piece reproduction of furniture earlier this year, while this piece is at the limit of what is normally available, I regularly use pieces 18-20 wide in my work. After using a hand plane on this size board anything would seem easy.

7. 
   Ron_Brese | Oct 22, 2001 02:18pm | #11

   *b From the Workshop of Ron BreseRob I would have to agree that there is no way that board should be ripped and reassembled. When I encounter boards of this width and quality I usually cut them to rough furniture part lengths and flatten them by hand. I quess this goes to show that you really need to have an open mind when approaching any material so as to use solutions that make the best use of the boards you are dealing with at any given time.Ron

8. 
   hotsawdust* | Oct 25, 2001 02:53am | #12

   *Hmm...if you can take a board from rough to planed and thicknessed in less than ten minutes, you must either be drinking stronger coffee than I am or have some sort of powers I lack. I hate to sounds suspicious but...I'm suspicious.

9. 
   Rob_Millard | Oct 25, 2001 05:50pm | #13

   *Dear HotsawdustBy working efficiently, it is amazing the speed with which an experienced craftsman can work. On the clock in question, I used 8/4 material for the sides of the base and waist, which I resawed to 7/8 thick. The hood sides were resawn from 4/4 material. It takes me no more than 2=3 minutes (usually much less) to flatten a face on rough sawn stock with a hand plane, on material as narrow as the pieces on this clock. After achieving a flat, but not necessarily perfect (appearance wise) face, anyone can run them through the thickness planner in a matter of minutes, especially when the parts are of alike thickness. The hood base, waist door framing material, waist sides, base sides, and scroll board were all 7/8 thick, so I was able to use the same setting on the surface planner for these parts. The pediment sides were 1 ¼ thick, and the only other change was for the hood sides, and dial frame, which were 3/8 thick, and the door, which were ¾ thick. Had it not been for the resawing, I could have been done even more quickly. Lets review, Flattening 25 pieces at 3 min. = 75 min. (actually because I was able to get several pieces out of one prepared board there were not really 25 boards to prepare). Surfacing, 45 min. (I don’t think it took me this long. Straightening one edge w/ hand plane 35 min. Watching one episode of Hogan’s Heroes 30 min. Resawing including set up 60 min. Coffee break 0 min. (I don’t drink coffee) This brings the total to 4 hours and 5 minutes. I recently completed a card table that used full width boards for the top leaves. These boards were rough sawn, and about 1 3/8 thick. Boards this size are beyond the capacity of my surface planner, so this made it necessary to use my hand power plane to remove the bulk of the material, which in this case was 5/8”. From start to finish, both leaves took around 3 hours to complete. (Although I removed the bulk of the waste, one day, and let them stabilize for a few days, before finishing with battery of hand planes) As you may know these leaves fold together, and require a high degree of accuracy, in flattening to insure they mate together properly. We must never judge our own abilities (or lack thereof) by the abilities of others. I certainly hope this inspires you to strive for more speed in your work.

10. 
    hotsawdust* | Oct 26, 2001 02:29pm | #14

    *Ah, my apologies Rob. I see why my BS-alarm was incorrectly set off: I misunderstood your original post to indicate that you were thicknessing the boards with a plane as well. Your method sounds very reasonable, and much more sensible than buying a cheapo 6" jointer. Actually, I'm a great fan of more handwork, for no other reason than it decreases the noise one has to put up with.No coffee, hm? Perhaps Hogans Heroes is more effective- but is there a study on the comparative health effects? Sadly, I don't think those nutty Nazis are showing in my neighborhood at the moment, but it was one of the favorite shows of my youth.

11. 
    Rob_Millard | Oct 27, 2001 12:55am | #15

    *Dear Hotsawdust,I’m sorry if my original posting led you to think I was hand planing a board to thickness in 2-3 min., that would be quite a feat indeed. Anyone can make a mistake, but few are like you and admit it, I certainly respect you for that. As for Hogan’s Heroes, it is on TV Land. Up until this week it was on a 11:00 AM, but now it’s on at 8:00 AM, so I have breakfast with Klink instead of lunch.

12. 
    Kim_Whitmyre | Nov 11, 2001 07:25pm | #16

    *What an informative read! My appreciation to you all.Kim