Friends,
I saw someone use an 8000 Norton waterstone DRY. I asked why. Answer was “It works. Watch.” He rubbed the iron of the LN 5 1/2 for a bit and then rubbed the back for a few seconds, and put it in the plane and took some shavings, and handed me the plane. I took some shavings. Worked nicely. He had showed me the iron. The back had a nice mirror shine on the bottom inch or so, and the bevel had a nice mirror secondary bevel. The blade cut hair on my arm easily and caught on fingernail quickly.
The guy is a professional. I asked him how often he flattens the stone. He said “Daily”. Oh well, he is not fastidious.
I asked how long he had had the stone. He said for a few years. I put a straight edge on it. It looked flat. He flattens it under a fawcet on his rough diamondstone.
The guy only uses one waterstone. He uses DMT diamondstones to get to about 1200 grit and then moves to the Norton 8000.
I asked him if he has used the ruler trick. He said no, because it takes so little time to flatten the backs on the diamondstones. Once they are flat, the ruler trick doesn’t buy you anything.
If you have the new glass backed Shaptons, it is easy to do a little spritz. But with the Nortons, it really is a bit of a mess to set up and use the waterstones which are drenched. Using the 8000 dry would be very nice — if there are no costs involved. It would be like my use of a ceramic stone on my gouges while I am carving. I use it dry. It is no muss, no fuss, and it works fast and beautifully.
I would not ask a question on Knots without doing some research on the web. So I did some Google searches on using a dry waterstone. I guess there is nothing new under the sun. There are people who recommend it. You can read one article on this at:
http://www.knives.com/stones.html
So what is your take on this?
Thanks,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Ever-stirring-the-pot-Mel,
Firstly, I am left curious if this pro is someone on the woodworking show circuit.
I use Norton's 8000x stone as well as a DMT 600x/1200x diamond stone. I also use a 4000x Norton stone as a transition between the 1200x and 8000x. I do not use the ruler trick because I do not find it necessary - it actually requires more time than skipping it, as long as the back of the blade is flat.
I always use my ceramics dry, often use my diamond stone dry, and always wet my 8000x water stone with a splash of water (I soak my coarser stones).
Most water stones of course need to be soaked before use. Finer stones do not need to be soaked - only a splash of water is needed for lubrication. In theory, the water washes away the swarf. However, for the little material that is removed with the 8000x stone, a good supply of water is not needed. I will note that when he flattens his stone under the water, he may be hydrating the stone amply.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Thanks for the nice answer.
I was genuinely puzzled by what this guy did. You asked if he is one of the "touring woodworking pros". No. It was not Rob Cosman. Is a guy who has a full time job with a Washington, DC Architectural millwork firm. He works on restorations of high end homes in places like Georgetown (in Washington, DC) and in the environs such as Old Town Alexandria, VA. There are a number of such firms around here. He carries a large set of LN planes which he uses daily on interiors, exteriors and doors. He has some old Stanleys such as a compass plane since LN and LV don't make them. This is not a guy who works wood once in a while. He does it daily. He has a half set of hollows and rounds. He makes moldings from scratch, etc etc etc.This guy is not a "high powered" "high prestige" woodworker such as Lonnie Bird, Rob Cosman or yourself. While a true professional, he is unknown outside the local area. He has been doing this for over a decade. I have been using waterstones for less than a year. I have used them by soaking them, as Norton recommends, and as Cosman describes in his videos. Like you, I use diamondstones, but I don't use a 4000 Norton. You use a splash of water on your 8000. Joe does it dry. I really wonder what the difference is? What are the differences between 1) dry, 2) a splash, and 3) soaking the 8000 for five minutes or more????? What are the differences in the effect on the blade, and on the stone?As you said, the 8000 doesn't generate a lot of swarf. It washes out easily, and it certainly goes away when you flatten it with a diamondstone. So my guess is that there is not much negative effect on the stone. Indeed, if the swarf fills in the 8000 stone a bit, the stone may act more like a finer grit stone. As far as the effect on the blade, my guess is that the stone may cut a little slower, but since it cuts pretty fast, so what?In any case, I appreciate your answer. Let me know if you can add any more, based on my response to you. By learning more how real woodworkers actually do their sharpening, I am getting a better feel for what is real, and what are "urban woodworking legends". I hope more folks weigh in on this one. Again, thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,One thing I really appreciate about guys who don't have formal training is that they are more likely to discover new techniques. If this DC carpenter had taken a coarse on sharpening, he would have learned to use water to lubricate his stones and might not have ever tried otherwise. I try not to take anything for granted - Adam Cherubini is the same way, knocking block planes, for example.WOW! Did you just compare me to Rob Cosman and Lonnie Bird! Not quite sure what that means though...My Norton is a combo 4000x/8000x, so when I use the 4000x, I soak it and the 8000x gets soaked too. However, if I am just touching up the micro-bevel, I will just wet the surface of the 8000x stone and go to work. I don't notice any difference between these two wetnesses. I have not tried it dry.Flattening a stone does two things. Obviously, it makes it flat, so your tool ends up flat. But it also removes work abrasive, exposing fresh grit. Not lubricating the stone would leave swarf and worn abrasive particles that break off laying on/in the stone. I think that would make the stone cut much less quickly, which is one of the greatest benefits of the Nortons, in my view. It probably will act like a finer stone, maybe a polishing stone even.I was surprised when I logged in today to find only eight posts here. Stir, stir...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Norton says that the 8000 needs only a spritz of water, instead of being soaked like the others. I am relatively new to these stones and have been just soaking the 8000 with all the others. I'm realizing that for me it is actually hard to use when this wet because of a strong suction that developes under the blade. I think I will try just a spritz . . . and I'm not surprised to hear that it works well dry. One gripe about Nortons: mine didn't come flat! Not even close! Easy to flatten with the special flatenning stone, but even so . . .
Brian
"One gripe about Nortons: mine didn't come flat! Not even close! Easy to flatten with the special flatenning stone, but even so . . ."Throw that stupid flattening stone out the window. Seriously. Biggest scam in sharpening...Sorry I'm on a bit of a rant on these stones. I've been getting caught on on some seriously overdue sharpening (I've been without a real shop for a year, and all the christmas and birthday presents are getting honed). I was flattening my stones with my reasonably new Norton sharpening stones, decided to check to see if perhaps the small amount of use has taken it out of flat... It had (or it was never really flat in the first place). I've attached a picture, you can see it's almost out by a 32nd...So now I have to flatten the flattening stone... My old method of rubbing two 1000 grit stones together to make them flat was much simpler, and despite the naysayers on the forums always produced good results. Better than any flattening stone at least.What's funny is the guy at lee valley suggested I use the DMT diamond stone to flatten the Norton stone... The diamond stone is $135...
Buster,The Norton flattening stone has some merits, but also some disadvantages. On the plus side, it cuts quickly and has grooves to clear swarf and minimize surface tension. On the negative side, it needs to be kept flat.That's why I use a diamond stone. I've had mine for maybe four years and haven't seen any degradation in cutting performance or flatness. And I use it all the time, almost daily. I don't think that there is a better tool for taking the hook off a scraper when sharpening it. If you've ever tried this on a water stone, you'll know why the diamond is superior. That's my take, anyhow. The 1000x on 1000x works fine, but again, you're buying another stone. Another stone that will wear out long before my diamond stone.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,Regarding the diamond stone, that's pretty much what I said to the Lee Valley guy. If I'm going to buy the diamond stone that's what I'm going to flatten my stones on...I bought myself a course diamond stone earlier this year, just to speed up the flattening the backs of blades (I had enough blades to justify it). It was one of those 'Ah ha' moments in sharpening. I have a set of firmer chisels that were very highly polished, the edges were heavily dubbed as a result. I'd spent ages on the 1000 grit over the two years that I had had them... 5 minutes on the course diamond stone, and I had a better result. 15 minutes and I was done... and I'm a slow sharpener.
Buster,Before I posted my last message to you, I double checked your location to make sure that I hadn't given you that advise on the diamond stone.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Oh you're one of those Lee Valley guys... Did you enjoy the plane days this weekend?$500.78... That's what I spent... Just enough to get the $100 gift card. Got myself a Router plane (and some toys).
The plane days was quite enjoyable - getting paid to play around all day with planes and talk about your passion. And get paid for it too. I was the main demonstrator at the Coquitlam store.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Here I though you were just a guy with a great blog...I stopped by mid day on Friday, so the Calgary store was dead. Just me and a bunch of retirees. So I think every employee in the store came through at one point. I was just bugging the guy showing sharpening, as I had only recently discovered how bad my 'flattening stone' was. He was actually very informative. More interestingly I got talking to one employee who had a similar issue as I do... A Stanley 45 in disrepair...The event was great.
Brian,
Great to hear your experience added to the pot. I am learning a lot here. If just a spritz works, and it seems to, these things are easier and less messy to use.
Thank you very much,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Brian,Yes, surface tension is definitely a factor, especially when flattening with a smooth stone or lapping the back of an iron. But look at it this way - when there is that much surface tension, you know that it is flat.Assuming that your Nortons were new, I would suggest that they slipped through the cracks. Mine were pretty darn flat, if I recall.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>8000 Norton waterstone DRY
Sounds good. Until . . . you sharpen six blades in a row and the stone is so loaded that it does not cut. Also I get minute bits of the final remnants of the wire edge on the stone. The roller and the blade go bump bump over them (on a micro level a very quiet bump bump). I feel this detracts from the quality of the final edge.
Speaking of loaded 9619 . . .
So I need to washing this wire stuff off nearly every blade. And I need to wash the black stuff off between blades any way. Once loaded it cuts slower. In just a blade or two let alone six or more.
I use a nagura stone to clean the 4000 and so might as well use it on the 8000. Has to be wet to do this. Not really messy and "erases" the metal loaded into the pores quick like a bunny. An 8000 costs me too much to be grinding away at it every time I use it. I would still have a wet stone so what is the difference ? = >He flattens it under a fawcet on his rough diamondstone.<
I admit it cuts nice after flattening.
Kind of like saying I notice I get better gas milage if I don't put gas in the car's tank and just push the car and jump in for the down hills. That gas is too dangerous and messy to deal with.
?
: )
He and you are silly rabbits.
Roc,
So what I learned from you was: if you are a "heavy user" of the 8000 and you really load it up, then it doesn't cut as fast. That sounds entirely reasonable. So I just went down to the shop, and took a skew chisel to the Norton 8000. I merely gave the stone one spritz. The stone was clean to start. I honed the blade on one side until it raised a wire and then the other for about as many strokes. Obviously there was some metal filings on the stone. So I gave the stone another spritz and wiped it off with a paper towel. Total work time was less than a minute. The chisel was sharp and the stone was clean.Possibly a lesson here it to spritz the stone after each blade, and wipe it off. You used an automotive analogy. Well what I am suggesting would be like washing the car frequently, say once a month, instead of letting it go for two years. Thanks for your experience. We are gathering a database. This ain't exactly science, but it is good enough for woodwork.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nope washing the car has no effect on the performance unless I am misjudging you and your ride spends a fair amount of time up around 250 MPH.I would never consider wiping my stone with a paper towel. Pulp will load up stone, grit in towel will introduce "rocks" into my nice fine grit. I do get my thrills from looking at the mirror with no scratches. Not practical I know but there it is.Do you remember that "awful" suction problem somebody was having between blade and stone. When the blade is good and wet. Well I depend on that to hold the stone down on my neoprene mat so there is no hope in Hades that I am going to just spritz my stones.I like "em sloppy wet like a real cool guy Japanese craftsman would use. The idea is float the metal out of the pores not just make the metal in the pores damp and cosy.It never ceases to impress me the effort people will go to to avoid a proven method just so they feel independent. Just use the wheel. Why reinvent it?Am I getting overly crotchety here ? It feels like I am. Being all impolite. But this is starting to make me crazy.I guess the point is you guys want to sharpen in your shop where (for some) there is no running water. I sharpen in the kitchen where it is warm, I have a sprayer faucet to get the stones clean AND THE PROGRESSIVE GRITS OFF THE BLADE AND ROLLER OF THE SHARPENING JIG. I can visit with my partner while I sharpen so it is all quite pleasant.Just sharpen in the kitchen and have lots of blades so there is no hold up in your work.Lets talk for a minute about the trash generated by the paper towels. Of course you are keeping the grits separate so a different wipe for each stone. Or lets not talk about it. Makes me tired just thinking about the waste.
Roc,
Loved your message.
You are a good boy.
You do things the right way.
God will reward you for that. (At least I think she will.)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sharp blades is my reward. And maybe a chat room to brag, brag, brag, blah blah blah . . .well you get the idea.happy planingIf I disappear for a while it is because I got to get back into the shop and do a bunch of stuff. I been putting off too much and now I am overwhelmed.roc who still works in the real world for a living but likes to hang with the big old dogs who are retired.
Roc,
I am jealous of you. I wish I was young enough to still have to make a living. Wanna trade?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>I wish I was young enough to still have to make a living. Wanna trade?<OOOOOOoooooooYYYYYyyyyaaaaa !perhaps you are not talking retirement but it gives me a chance to grump about the retired that are bored.They say youth is wasted on the young. From all the people I have heard say "I could never retire I wouldn't know what to do with my self " or " After I retired I didn't know what to do with my self ".I say retirement is wasted on the wrong people.Just give me a shot. I could retire today and not run out of things to do for the next hunert years. Easy ! Leme at em jst Leme at em ! ! ! !roc (he who has a file drawer just full of clippings and notes for projects he will probably never even start but fascinates him and stimulates his imagination no end.)
Roc,
Don't get me wrong, I love retirement. I just would rather get young again and have another go at life (and get another forty or fifty years. Getting old isn't all glamor and excitement. So far, I am enjoying retirement immensely. Not enough time to do everything I want to. But I'd rather be 18 again.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>I'd rather be 18 again. . . . strip show in East Baltimore<Mel ! Well I suppose I see where you are going with this . . . but steady onnn.Hey don't take my response to dished oil stone too seriously but I would like to hear what the "archeologists" have found about our wood workers and the state of their flat surfaces and fineness of grits.roc
your student though an ornery ill-mannered lout. Just a hobby I picked up in high school that I enjoyed serving up to the counselors who lied to me and just never broke the habit. Not that you are lying to me but I hope to learn the secrets of your witch craft.
Roc,
glad to see that you are having as much fun with this as I am.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It never ceases to impress me the effort people will go to to avoid a proven method just so they feel independent. Just use the wheel. Why reinvent it?
Right on, Brother Roc.
Edited 1/20/2009 7:01 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
The black "tracks" where the blade contacts the stone is one of the things I like best about Nortons. That way I can see where I am removing metal and if my edge is straight. I flatten my stone after every tool I sharpen, more often if I am doing some serious sharpening (as opposed to a 10-second honing of the micro-bevel.Nagura stones are not used to clean a stone, but rather to build up a slurry to speed up the sharpening process. In my opinion, they are an asset with Japanese stones, but not necessary with Nortons. An excerpt on Nagura stones from the Japan Woodworker site:***"The incredible polishing action of a finish stones results from the mud” which builds up on the surface of the stone during honing. Nagura Stones create this “mud” before honing begins, thus speeding up the polishing process. In addition, the Nagura Stone makes the stone surface slippier, keeping the tool from sticking. Nagura Stones are small pieces of very fine chalky natural stone, specially mined for this purpose.A Nagura Stone is easy to use. Simply rub it in a circular motion on the full surface of a finish stone until a paste or “mud” develops. If the stone surface is too dry the Nagura Stone will stick To alleviate this problem, add a few drops of water. Generally speaking, the more paste, the better the honing action."***I like to use a gasoline soaked rag to wipe down the dusty filaments of my ACME quartz heater! (No, don't try this at home, kids!)Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Your message said:
"Simply rub it in a circular motion on the full surface of a finish stone."Uh oh. I have been using a back and forth motion with my Nagura stone, not a circular motion. Do you think I have screwed up badly?Joe, the guy I talked to is not what I would call a carpenter. He also makes Chippendale furniture in his spare time. When I met him, he was TEACHING a class on using hand planes, not taking it.I used Rob Cosman's 5 1/2 after he sharpened it. Rob used mine after I sharpened it, and said it was fine. I used Joe's 5 1/2 after he sharpened it on a DRY waterstone. I could discern no differences between his, Rob's and mine. Given the courses he has taken, and his years of experience refurbishing old mansions, I wouldn't say he has a lack of formal training. I'd just say that he is somewhat more relaxed about honing than many on Knots. I wouldn't say he is less competent at sharpening than those who are more anal about it than he is. He just doesn't pray at the altar of the sharpening Gods. He prays at the altar of the woodworking gods. There is a BIG BIG difference.I now have some experience honing dry on an 8000 Norton. It works. However, since it is no trouble to give the stone a spritz before honing, and to give it one after honing and wiping it off with a paper towel (total time less than 20 seconds), what the heck, I'll give it a spritz. What's to lose? 20 seconds? I am retired. :-)Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Yes, you've messed up. In fact, I recommend affixing your nagura stone to a compass to enable you to rub it in perfect circles.Not that I doubted myself, but it's reassuring that a Cosman sharpening job is not unobtainable. So bottom line - you don't find any difference in the end result with a wet or dry 8000x stone, right?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris
"it's reassuring that a Cosman sharpening job is not unobtainable. "Remember when I said that Cosman is the world's greatest salesman? He is. When he takes a shaving with his plane in a "classroom setting", he lofts it into the air in a dramatic manner. I have been practicing it. My guess is that your stuff is as sharp as Cosman's. When I took that "class" from him last month, he took a LN plane out of the box, and had it sharp in under a minute, which was timed by the rest of us. That included using the ruler trick to do the back, and two stones on the front. Heck, you probably spend a minute and a half at honing yours, so I'll bet yours are sharper :-)Don't get me wrong, I find Rob to be a very nice, very skilled guy, who wants you to continue going to his classes, buying his videos and buying the equipment that he sells. This is what he should be doing. He is in business. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>When he takes a shaving with his plane in a "classroom setting", he lofts it into the air in a dramatic manner. I have been practicing itThat's it ! That is what is missing from my techniuque ! I always secretly suspected there was some key element that I was unaware of.Does one lift a pinky while lofting ? Is it OK to use the left hand or only the right hand ? and then there is the problem of how to dispose of the shaving in a polite and decorous manner ?
roc
Roc,
you asked about lofting the shaving. It is BEST if the shaving is so thin that static electricity holds it to your hand, and you have to use the other hand to take it off. When this happens, the crowd goes wild. The only other time I have seen such enthusiasm was once, decades ago when a bunch of my college friends and I went to a strip show in East Baltimore.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Roc,Use your dominant hand. I find that when I practice this technique, all the bystander are mesmerized by the shaving, transfixed as it floats down to earth. But as soon at it hits the ground, they all dive for it, solving the problem of disposing of it.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I'm guessing that you never heard his sales pitch for LN planes North of the border. I respect him as a craftsman, but as a LN rep, I have very little respect for him. The young guy who works at the LN booth in American shows is the same way. I will not elaborate further on the forum. Rob is an excellent craftsman and teacher - hey, he gave me my first introduction to hand cut dovetails five years ago or so!Darn! And I thought that I'd invented the whisper-thin shaving toss! Mine are so thin that they can be irritating to work with - the static makes them cling to your skin! Aaarrghh!While I haven't timed myself sharpening a new plane out of the box, I have timed myself bringing my low-angle plane back up to peak performance. Just under 30 seconds, including removing the blade and re-installing and setting it. And I even wet the water stone!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
About Cosman. He and I are not life-long buddys. I took a day's class with him once, and he spent the previous evening with the employees of the Woodcraft store. Previously he had answered two emails that I sent him - fast and nicely.He was such a good salesman at the Woodcraft store that most of the students taking the class didn't even realize that he was "selling". After all, he told them that he just got paid for teaching the course, and that he got no proceeds from any sales. Well, he got a pretty good retainer to come, and we stocked up on LN planes, his DVDs and other stuff that he pushes, and son of a gun, we sold a lot of stuff as a result of his class. Sorry you have had a bad experience with him. I haven't. The folks who took his class liked him. He wasn't such a hit with the rest of the employees because none of them are interested in hand tools. Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
>rest of the employees . . . none of them are interested in hand toolsIt is hard to soar with eagles when you work with turkeys.
Roc,
"It is hard to soar with eagles when you work with turkeys."If that is the case, how can you survive here on Knots with people like me? :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You are not a turkey but it sounds like the non hand tool interested coworkers are in serious danger of growing feathers.roc
Roc,
"You are not a turkey but it sounds like the non hand tool interested coworkers are in serious danger of growing feathers."I was fishing for a compliment, and you provided it. That is the ONLY way I can get compliments. :-)
Thank you. I feel better now.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You want complements ? Post some historical facts with pictures and links, proven techniques using wavy sharpening stones that produce accurately milled edges . . OH . . . and a few scanning micrographs of those surfaces/edges.I know you got connections ! This shouldn't be too tall an order.Then you get a real 'GOODBOY'.roc who is patiently but not optimistically waiting.
Roc,Compliments are nice, but they can be false. So the best person to compliment you is yourself, but only if you feel that you can be trusted.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
> I have been using a back and forth motion with my Nagura stone, not a circular motion.
Next thing we know, you're going to be wondering whether the circles have to be clockwise in the northern hemisphere!Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne,
"Next thing we know, you're going to be wondering whether the circles have to be clockwise in the northern hemisphere!"Remember, clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Southern hemisphere. Also for dovetails, it is tails first on even numbered days in the Northern Hemisphere and pins first on odd numbered days. Just the opposite in the southern hemisphere.It took me a while, but I finally got it straight.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
MelInteresting thread. It never would have occurred to me to use my Norton stones dry--any of 'em. I avoided the mess of the waterstones by purchasing the Norton Portable waterstone kit--it's about the size of a tackle box and has two separate compartments--the lower to keep things dry and the upper to hold the three waterstones around the shaft--the stone you are using is nice and flat and the other two are kept submerged. To switch stones, you simply lift and turn the shaft. When you are done, latch the lid back on and put it away. This works well for me as my shop is my garage and there's no room for my sharpening stuff. So I keep my waterstones and my Tormek in the pantry-having a great wife helps! You still working PT at Woodcraft there in DC? Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,
Yup, still working in the Woodcraft store in Springfield, VA about ten hours a week. Glad your wife lets you keep the sharpening stuff in her pantry. Great idea. I will mention it to mine. yuk yuk.I know about the waterstones on the ferris wheel like you have. Nice idea for keeping things compact. I was just doing a little "testing" around the edges of sharpening by starting this thread. Meeting the professional woodworker who uses his Norton 8000 dry was an eye opening experience. It caused me to ask some questions. I don't have all the questions answered yet, but at least I was able to pass the eye opening experience on to others. It is amazing how differently people do their sharpening! And everybody's system works for them. I wonder if it is possible to do anything wrong? Well, sure there is. If you don't raise and chase the burr, you haven't sharpened. If you have an angle that is not useful for what you are doing, you have a problem. Stop to think of the great woodworkers of past centuries, and the treasures they produced which are in the collections of museums and of the super rich. My research tells me that none of them, not the Goddards nor the Townsends had any of them Shapton 16,0000 stones. My guess is that most of them were working with a cupped oilstone of dubious quality according to todays standards. YET THEY TURNED OUT MASTERPIECES!!! That alone tells me that today, some of us have some of our priorities screwed up. I'll bet if the Goddards and the Townsends could be brought back from the grave today, and shown some of our woodworkers who obsess over sharpening, their response would be something like, "OK, that's nice, now show me the folks who do good woodwork. Where are your best designers and craftsmen?"I once took a management course (which didn't work) and in the introductory session, every participant was asked: "Suppose you could arrange dinner tonight with five people from history. Who would they be?" VERY INTERESTING QUESTION. I suppose "Thomas Chippendale, Jesus, Attila the Hun, Machiavelli and George Carlin". Who would you choose? Would you ask any of them about sharpening? :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
MelIf I could, I'd like to be a guest at your table! Sounds like a great evening. And with Jesus there, no chance of running out of good wine! When it comes to sharpening, you are correct--1000 different ways to do it well; you just need to pick a team and play. I used to do the sandpaper on glass thing like Mike Dunbar, but got tired of hauling out the glass and grew fearful of dropping it or breaking it. So, I switched to the hollow grind and waterstones method I learned from Lonnie Bird. Works great, works fast. I don't even test the edge on my arm hair, fingernails, etc. Just a few strokes across the 8000 grit stone, see the polish and I know she's ready to rumble. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,
OK, If I can set up that dinner, you will sit at the head of the table, right between God and Attila the Hun. The wine will flow freely. We will discuss the great issues of the universe.
Now let's see, what are they?
- Bevel Up versus Bevel Down Bench Planes
- How do we eliminate hunger and poverty?
- How tight do your tenons have to fit?
- How best to rehabilitate career criminals
- Pins first or Tails first
- how to cope with the death of a loved one
- are flat or round toothpicks best to repair loose chair rungs?
- can war be eliminated
- Is Norm the greatest carpenter?
- do we really need politicians?
- Who is the better designer, Chippendale or Krenov?
- What is Lataxe's native language?Wow, we will have enough to talk about to fill a few hours?
See you there.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
MelThis is shaping up to be a great dinner full of lively conversation. I can't wait! Shall we discuss menu options? Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,
"Shall we discuss menu options?"
Well, God and Atilla can have whatever they want. Obviously. I'll probably have whatever they are having.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I imagine Mr. Hun dined frequently on wild game. My Lord was partial to dried fish, bread, olives and probably goats cheese when available. Oh, and of course, good wine! Sounds like a feast to me! Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Mel,
Geez, no wimmin at your historical dinner table? What about Ava Gardner? I'm sure she'd spice up the conversation. Plus, she'd be great to look at.
Mata Hari? Katherine Hepburn? Betty Grable? I'll bet they'd have a lot of tales to tell. Judy Garland could sing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." That'd be worth listening to.
Cleopatra? Jane Austen? I can't see the Hun having much interesting to say compared to, for instance, Audrey Hepburn or Cyd Charisse.
Open this thing up, please...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton,
Loved your response. I picked five for my dinner, but EACH OF US GETS TO PICK OUR FIVE. You picked a very interesting group of people. Beautiful ones. Great set of possibilities. The set of people that a person chooses says a lot about the person. You sound like an interesting guy. I didn't think about not having any women in my group. Maybe I can drop Attila the Hun, and add Mae West.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Who among those women are woodworkers?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Well, you raise a good point. It's likely that none of these women have ever planed a board or fit a mortise and tenon joint together. But they have other assets they could bring to the table. There's a lot to be said for pulchritude and spirit..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton,>wimmin at your historical dinner tableThere you go man. Usually I enjoy women's company/conversation more than men. Especially while riding my bicycle. Not enough women here on Knots. Or they are not posting.>Mae West
Judge : Mam are you showing contempt for this court ?
Mae West : no your honor I'm tryin' my best to hide it.
: )My table guests:
• Karen Carpenter (fascinated me since I was a little kid makes me crazy she died so young)
• Nichola Tesla always a great showman to have at a party. A personal hero of mine. He could draw plans in his head, make machines in his head, run the machines for months in his head to find the flaws. Then when he stood at the lathe to make his final product it was ready to go one off. ! ! ! Nice ! ! ! Pearls creeped him out so don't wear your pearls if you come to my dinner. That goes for you ladies too. : )
• 9619/Mel he could come down to the shop and once and for all show me how to sharpen my plane blades without all this useless mucking about.• Woody Allen would make some great comments under his napkin about the other guests. I was going to say Elvis but then he would probably pick up Karen and I wouldn't get to talk to her all night. Come to think of it so would Mr. Allen. How does he dooo that ?• George Bush seems like a likable guy in a casual setting. Sides I want to hear just what the 'ell he was thinking. Goes without saying Laura Bush would be there. I like her and she would keep him honest and let me know how it really was.• Courteney Cox if you need an explanation here you might want to check with your doctor to be sure you ain't dead. Or maybe some body stole your thinker.well that is about it for now I don't think I can feed any more than this at a swipe.Edited 1/21/2009 2:06 am by roc
Edited 1/21/2009 5:56 am by roc
Roc,
That's a heck of a diverse group! And a good one. I like most of your choices - and I am of the same mind that conversations with women are generally more interesting than those with men. I didn't want to say that in my first post and open myself up to charges - what charges they'd be I don't know, but someone here in Knots would certainly have said something. You're the brave one roc. I'd have you at my dinner, between Mae West and Lana Turner. That'd be a good place to be..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Hey! I thought they had to be dead!My picks:
John Ruskin
Winston Churchill
Sidney Barnsley
The Greene brothersChris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
rocIf you want good dinner conversation, you've got the wrong Bush on your list. Get W's momma, Barbara. She's a hoot and a great person besides. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
>W's momma, Barbara. She's a hoot and a great person besides.I don't know. She looks pretty stern. She has always scared me. Some how I think she has been running the show. I bet even Chaney says yyyyyeeeessssmmmmaaaaammm when she tells him to shut up and listen.The only time I saw her look friendly was during the recent ceremonies.
roc
Zolton,
Dorothy Parker.
Ray
Ray,
Oh man! You nailed it!
"Are those her clothes? I always thought she was running out of a burning building."
"I hate writing. But I love having written."
Now that would be a great table guest..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton,
When a starlet stepped back to let her pass, saying to her, "Age before beauty," she strode on past, pausing only to mutter, "Pearls before swine."
And it was she who quipped, when criticised for her drinking to excess, "better a bottle in front of me, than a prefrontal lobotomy".
Further, asked to use the word "horticulture" in a sentance, "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."
But if you have DP at the table better include Rob't Benchley too.
Ray
Ah, Mel, you ask the big questions. And I have the answers!- Bevel Up versus Bevel Down Bench Planes----------Bevel up, obviously!
- How do we eliminate hunger and poverty?----------Pay those in poverty to feed the hungry!
- How tight do your tenons have to fit?----------Just right.
- How best to rehabilitate career criminals----------Suggest a career change.
- Pins first or Tails first----------Hey, we have two hands, don't we. Ok, just trying to drum up sales of dovetail saws here.
- how to cope with the death of a loved one----------A coping saw, or if they were really fine, a fret saw
- are flat or round toothpicks best to repair loose chair rungs?----------It depends if the chair rungs are turned or not.
- can war be eliminated----------Of course. If everyone joined Knots, we'd have mild-tempered arguments instead.
- Is Norm the greatest carpenter?----------No.
- do we really need politicians?----------See above answer.
- Who is the better designer, Chippendale or Krenov?----------Neither.
- What is Lataxe's native language?----------Ask Norm.
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Damn! You solved all of the worlds problems. Nothing left for Obama to do. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
He can come thank me, then we can build a nice desk for his new office.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I agree with your hollow grind and water stones. Good stuff.You guys are encouraging me to get my wet wheel going again so I can hollow grind. The big stone has a hard spot and goes all bump bump after a while. No I never warranted it. I should have.In case you still want to use the sand paper which sounds like a good way for some things like chisels and for flattening backs of blades with 80 grit, as was recommended by Derek the other day. Be aware that the extruded aluminum flat sheet in the same thickness as the glass or thicker is very flat and obviously more durable. It seems to me I saw an article by Mr Dunbar using it.roc
rocI believe I heard that Mike Dunbar threw away his glass in favor of the aluminum plate. The glass was too much of a liability. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
>Goddards nor the Townsends had any of them Shapton 16,0000 stones. My guess is that most of them were working with a cupped oilstone of dubious quality so we are still working with the hypothesis that the Japanese had straight straight-edges, flat stones, super fine stones and samari quality cutting tools a thousand years ago.ButThat our dudes in the USA couldn't rub two stones together to flatten them, had no straight edges to check them with, did not have the ability to quarry stone ( Arkansas translucent ) and some how, using magic, cut and flattened their wood.Conclusion forget decent tools and techniques and take up witch craft.Is that what we are saying or did I get something wrong here. Perhaps you are speaking of positive mental attitude and simply willing the board to be flat and smooth.This never works for me. I am weak I admit. I must fall back on this pesky acurately made tool crutch. It is a monkey on my back. What can I do?
well ?
Roc,
regarding the quest for perfection in flattening and sharpening --Have you ever known a man or a woman who never married because they were always looking for someone who is perfect? I got the only perfect woman. Sometimes, though, going for perfection is an exercise in self immolation. At NASA,, there is a saying, "The better is the enemy of the good." What that means is that there is an ever increasing cost for each increase in goodness, until you price your project out of existence. You measure the success of a space scientist by the projects they have completed, not for the ones they missed because they pushed for too much.Intelligent folks have a good sense of "how good is good enough".
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
> NASA
That sounds like the top to me. I would have loved to be a peon tech there. I would have been a good one ! Wouldn't happen with half assed tools that are all ruined and dirty though.I know what you are saying but I get this crap at work. They don't buy decent tools or storage and tell the customer they will get good and quick service and when it all falls down and takes longer and we can't find the stuff we need until a week after the fact and the customer has been put off and stuff comes back because it wasn't done right. I look bad and they look bad. Then I have to do it right in a big rush. FUN FUN FUNBoy they sure saved fifty cents though didn't they ? No they spent the money on what we did not need and never consulted with the people who are to use said unneeded stuff.?>Sometimes, though, going for perfection is an exercise in self immolation.Nah I don't need an excuse to be lazy. It just comes natural. I have reached perfection in my sharpening. And yet I am still sitting on the couch, with a slice of chocolate cake, talking with you when I could be in the shop. That is not and excuse.I am all tuckered out from sitting on the couch watching the inauguration with my partner and she is still here and now we are doing computer play time. I suppose that is my excuse. Trying to get my strength up after that long parade etc. It would take it out of any body.: )Well perhaps I am hopping to archive the perfect response to a perfect response to a perfect response OF a perfect post. That could be true. But how does one measure it? It has got to be measured. So it can be documented. And bragged about.I wonder how many grits they left out when polishing the Hubbell ? Ahhh it doesn't matter it is just the worlds most important telescope. Who cares if the images are a little blurry or we can' see as far as we might. Just crank it out ! Put it up there ! It looks good on the bottom line.> by the projects they have completed
You mean the projects they have completed successfully. I always say " I can fix anything given enough time, tools and money".And there is the quote i like : it isn't the extravagances I regret it is the economies.economies in time or tools or knowledge.A jig and fine stone doesn't cost much. Doesn't take long to use. Pushing a dull blade that won't cut because it is all dubed and then tears out when the blade is set too deep or sharpened at a shallower angle because it was miss judged by eye; now that can cost you. When you only had that one GREAT plank and now it is going to be too thin and the great layer that gave it the interesting grain characteristic is going to be planed off.THAT is unacceptably expensive. Ok I am willing to make my investment. To invest my nickel to save the dollar. To learn to sharpen on a stone that is a rough lumpy thing, to forgo the few seconds to attach the jig, to use one or two stones to get a polished edge to make a polished surface that I don't need to sand. Oh wait I have gone off the rails here. I don't think that is possible.or is it ? I am so confused. You see I must be led step my step like a little child.Do you realize that if we get any more Alzheimer's we will have this same discussion over and over with out that nagging little inner voice that I am hearing right now. That we will do this over and over and over? Makes one hope there is no infinite after life or reincarnation.
>Nagura stones are not used to clean a stone, but rather to build up a slurry to speed up the sharpening processOnce you spend a lot of time, or perhaps you have, you may find in any case that this is not true and that you get better results using the nagura to clean the stone only and forget the mud. It only serves to rase the blade off the real cutting surface of the stone.The surface edge is not improved by the mud. With the mud the best I get is a hazy polish and the facet is some what rounded because I have this stuff squirting out from under the blade in a pillow like way for lack of a better term. With the 8000 stone alone I get a bright mirror and a very flat facet. With the stone and no mud I can go back and forth on the stone though very the pressure to be greater on the pull. With the mud if I push I get a pile of the gick piling up in front of the edge. This simply must dull the blade to some degree how can it not. OK if I only pull and then lift can you see how the mud comes out under the edge and rounds the microscopic edge to a small degree ?Nope ! I tried this mud thing and it is not worth it.Believe me I have spent a great deal of time proving and disproving the various acutrama and this is the skinny. Sharpen as you like. Believe what you like but please try it both ways and make critical observations of your results using magnification and the curl off the single hair test.I see two types of Nagura unless I am getting the name wrong. One is a block that is flat sided, man made, hardish and takes some material off the surface of your stone and makes a slurry of it. The one I have is not hard enough to do that. It is an irregular lump with material more like a super fine and soft silt that rubs off and seems to go into the pores of the stone when I rub it around with my finger tips and acts just like an eraser to take the black metal residue off my stone. Then wash off this slurry to leave a fresh stone ready to use.Sorry for posting two nagura.s Pic of mine is first. The second/last one is the store pic from Hida Tools.I got mine local at Woodcraft but is not shone in the online catalog.Here are some pics of my set up. I apologize for those who have seen these before. There are two or three new ones.I know. I have read the mud info but stick to my empirical results. The Japanese dudes sharpen the entire bevel also and this tends to take much longer, wear the fine stone unduly and takes a great deal more downward pressure than just doing a one degree micro bevel for the last fine grit.They do not like hollow grind. Saying the bevel must be flat. But then they use this massive blade to cut wood that is mostly soft in comparison to the harder species like bubinga.I tried the massive blade on bubinga sharpened as they say. No big deal compared to bevel ups. Then I sharpened with micro bevels and back bevel and now it is much improved on the bubinga even though I have these "imperfect" micro bevels.There is some nonsense mixed in with the translation and tradition and the use of the big thick blade's flat face with the softer steel that acts like a sharpening jig.So to conclude:• Use 8000 wet rather than spritzed
• Clean 4000 and 8000 with very soft nagura. Wet but no reason to soak nagura as recommended
• Only grind away at it with diamond when flattening is needed (rare if several stones used)
• Forget the mud. It does nothing good and it tends to make an inferior edge geometry
• Don't introduce contaminates onto the stone ( paper fibers and grit that is inherently in paper products.Edited 1/20/2009 2:40 am by roc
Edited 1/20/2009 2:48 am by roc
Roc,
Do you use Norton stones? Or do you use Japanese stones? Synthetic or natural?
I do not have experience with nagura stones, only know theory. I suspect that a nagura will not help the cutting action of a Norton, whereas it is beneficial to a Japanese stone.
I like the hollow-grind and micro bevel sharpening methods. They save a lot of time. Now, maybe we are just lazy. I keep thinking of the show on PBS a few months ago on Japanese sword smiths. One fellow spends a week (or is it two) polishing the sword blade with a super fine abrasive that resembles crumbs. A thicker blade is certainly easier to balance on the bevel. A low-angle (wooden-type) spokeshave, whose bevel is equal to roughly half the blade length is so easy to balance on the bevel, you would literally have to try to rock it.
Would you recommend trying a Nagura on a Norton 8000x? Maybe it's beside the point, but for as little time I spend with the 8000x stone, is it necessary to use the Nagura, or is it a time-waster?
By the way, I'm not seeing the pictures.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>Synthetic or natural?well if the girls ask I am a purely natural kind of guy but between you and me I use the Nortons and others. Here is my list that are in current use I have others that are side lined listed after that:My way is probably excessive but I like it and get totally awesome results:700 or coarse/extra coarse DMT determined by need to change angel (DMT) or just cut to sharpen (700).1000 red no name stone probably a King
2000 green Shapton
4000 white Norton
8000 yellow NortonThere must be something wrong with my Norton 220. It is very soft and dishes way fast. I almost never use it. I like the Shaptons. I only have one of the old green ones = 2000. I was concerned that it would not be a good value because it was so thin but I wanted a 2000 and it came with the cool protective, ventilated box. It cuts fast and I hardly ever flatten it (stays flat ) so I am very happy with Shapton. If I were to do it over I would get all Shapton but they were not available when I got into water stones.I bought an Ice Bear 10,000 that is not as fine (or as pure/polishes but scratches too) as my 8000 yellow Norton.I bought the pink stone with the groves cut in it to flatten and freshen the grit of my other stones. I found it to not be as flat as I expected and wound up flattening it on my extra coarse diamond DMT Duosharp which are expensive and worth it !>Would you recommend trying a Nagura on a Norton 8000x? yes yes that is what I am saying. And for the 4000 NortonMaybe it's beside the point, but for as little time I spend with the 8000x stone, is it necessary to use the Nagura, or is it a time-waster?>Only worth it when the stone gets all covered with black steel residue. I use it every blade and some times between rinses on the same blade. When you polish the back to take off the wire edge the stone loads up pretty fast. Since the 8000 is stored dry if it has metal in the pores when you put it away it is going to get kind of rusty. Seems "less than workman like" to put the stone away with out cleaning it and have it get red from rust.>time waster
heck it seems like some people here say anything more than rubbing your plane blades on the side walk is a time waster.Sorry about pics not sure what happened. will reposts then delete old post.
Put me down for synthetic stones and natural girls."determined by need to change angel" Do you have a sharpening angel?Now, the whole idea behind waterstones (Nortons especially) is that they cut fast. To cut fast, they also wear fast to reveal sharp abrasive particles. I do not think that there is anything wrong with your 220. However, you are making those Shaptons sound awfully tempting.Ok, tomorrow, I will buy a nagura stone, if I remember to. Then I'll spend a few minutes sharpening all my tools. Yes, a few minutes. And no more! (Yeah, right - I have way too many chisel sets and plane blades!)I had a look at your pics. Did you make the cabinets?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>Do you have a sharpening angelsee now I warned you people about this. I meant angle but my water cooled spell checker started to over heat and go bing so it couldn't read my mind as well any more and that is the only hope it has in trying to figure out what the heck I was attempting to put into words. The original letters typed only lead it down a path that usually ends with the computer screen spelling out "kill me ! Please !" over and over and then it locks up.No the mind reading thing is the best way. The down side is the heat generated. Not so sure how it all works. It was a gift from Steve Jobs. One of his brilliant but less than marketable creations. They just could not find enough terrible spellers to test it so figured there was not a market since regular spell checkers work just fine for normal people.I do have an angel that lets me sharpen in her kitchen. That is better than a sharpening angel !>Did you make the cabinets?
nah they are cr*p, I am renting.>Norton 220. It is very soft and dishes way fasttrust me it is way way way fast. It gets so much loose stone on the surface it is like sharpening on a layer of sand or 1/16" ball bearings. I get allot of exercise but the blade does not change much. Others here have had a prob as well. Have you a N 220 that is about right ? Wanna trade ?
Did I mention that my Mac has voice recognition? It does not need lubrication at all, although many users prefer to.I still think that your 220 is normal.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
> still think that your 220 is normalThen normal sucks. I think that is the proper engineering term.> Mac has voice recognition. It does not need lubrication at all, although many users prefer to.I love my Mac/Apple toys. I have not lubricated one yet. I do find I need to lubricate my wallet to get that big old fat thing out of my pocket once I get to the Mac store. And then of course my fingers so the Mac sales person can get me to give up all that cash.After that getting the wallet out of my pocket in the months to come is no problem at all. Funny thing that. My back tends to start to heal up and straighten out after sitting on all that cash while I saved up.If it wasn't for buying this Air I would have a really nice surface planer and jointer and would not be talking plane blades with you turkeys.Just kidding ! ! ! : )
chris,
I think I must have a sharpening angel. You remember in Its a Wonderful Life, Clarence telling Jimmy Stewart, "whenever a plane iron gets sharp, a bell rings"? That must be so. Years ago, when I was just starting out, I couldn't sharpen for crap. Now tho, after being in the shop for going on 38 yrs, I hear ringing in my ears constantly.
Ray
So I bought myself a nagura stone and went into the shop today and did some testing.The biggest surprise was that despite not having sharpened any of my tools lately, there were not that were terribly dull. I pulled out my bone dry 8000x Norton water stone and proceeded to sharpen the irons of my block and jack plane without so much as breathing moist air on the stone. Both irons are O1 steel. The block plane iron took only three drawn strokes towards me on the bevel and two on the back to bring back that keen edge. The 50-degree jack blade required a little more work. The first picture (After 2 Blades) shows what the dry stone looked like at this point. A large part of why the second iron took so much longer was likely because the stone had been clogged with swarf which had not been washed away.To remove the black areas (to clean the stone), I tried using the nagura stone. Though the directions did not specify whether it was designed to be used wet or dry, I suspected that it should be used wet (with a wet water stone, of course). But I tried it dry first. The second picture (After 12 Passes - Nagura Dry) shows what the waterstone and nagura stone looked like after a dozen strokes. Then I went to the sink and wet the waterstone and nagura. I did not soak either, I just put the water stone under the tap and turned it on to a slow drizzle. The third and forth pictures (After 6 Passes - Nagura wet) show how quickly the the nagura cleaned up the Norton when wet (both pics are the same. Oops - can't delete attachments). And only six passes. Far more effective than dry, without removing as much of the waterstone as when using a diamond plate.My conclusions: You can use a 8000x Norton waterstone dry to sharpen, but after sharpening one tool in near-perfect condition, the stone loads and rapidly slows its cutting action. To renew the cutting action, the black swarf must be removed. And the best way involves water as a lubricant. The nagura stone is a great accessory for a fine (6000x and up) water stone, keeping the stone cutting and not unnecessarily wearing it away as would be done with a coarse stone. I will continue to use the nagura.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com) - Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 1/25/2009 12:20 pm by flairwoodworks
Chris,>I tried it ( nagura ) dry first.<When I first read this I thought oh god no ! You will scrape a bunch of worm tracks all over the stone. I applaud your scientific spirit. Glad it was your stone rather than mine.>went to the sink and wet the waterstone and nagura. <Here is my lame as*d theory on this bit. My gut feel is that with the stone all wet the metal tends to swim around and stay loose. But. With the metal already in the pores when one wets it they get sucked down into the stone. How's that for a dooms day scenario : )>6000x and up<I find the nagura a must on my white Norton 4000 as well. I see you have a N4 so give it a whirl if stone still black after rinsing.Glad you found it useful for cleaning the stones.Now that I have looked at pics I reiterate; I recommend the natural silty lump over the man made (?) one like you have for cleaning the stone. See my pic. The Nagura that you have may be best to generate the slurry for sharpening or to do
some minor flattening.I included a pic of my 8000. Getting very wet you can see how clean it gets and I have used this stone for several years.Since we are getting all into this I recommend getting the stone very wet just not letting it sit in water ( personally I suspect even this would not hurt it/seems like I left mine under water over night a couple of times with no problems.One thing that several sources have warned about is using hot water on the stone. That is; going from wet and cold/room temp to hot water under faucet. This could crack or chip the stone. I tend to rinse my blades under hot so they dry quick so I must be on my guard.Hey, I would like to hear what you think of the paste/mud used while sharpening aspect of the Nagura stone. Supposedly it makes a better edge and I was saying I find it to be less than advertised in this use.Thank you for taking all the picks and getting into the Sherlock Holmes swing of things.Growing up/high school my best friend and bike racing partner's last name was Watson. So of course I was Holmes. Ahhh Fun Days ! ! !Edited 1/24/2009 9:13 pm by roc
Edited 1/24/2009 9:17 pm by roc
Holmes,If you had told me about your doomsday theory before I tried it, I may have never tried. I disagree with your "water sucks down metal" theory. If the metal is already in the pores, when my nagura passes over top, it's extreme flatness creates suction (hydraulic lock, sort of) and draws the water and the metal out of the pores. That is part of how it works. Of course, a flat block of wood would probably not do the same thing, so there must be more to it...I did try the nagura on the 4000x and it worked like a charm (isn't that an odd expression?). So 4000x and up.My nagura is synthetic (man made). Have you tried one? Right now, this rookie nagura-ist likes the wide, flat surface of this one.There is no harm in leaving stones in water unless they freeze or go moldy (if that's possible). Some people leave their stones submerged and just change the water periodically. Isn't that the whole idea behind a stone pond?I see no harm in using warm water (it doesn't make my hands frozen) but boiling or near-boiling water may be a problem. The word on the street says that rubbing a nagura stone on your finest water stone will create a slurry that cuts like a finer stone. Um, I don't know the difference between 8000x and 10000x. I ended up with a sharp blade, not noticeably sharper than I had previously. Personally, I think that anything beyond 8000x is getting silly, but some would say that about 4000x or 1000x.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>Have you tried one?<
but of coursehttp://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5530It comes with the big stone. As I said this 10,000 is not as pure as the Norton 8000. The 10K leaves some scratches with the mirror.>getting silly<Why yes. Have I missed something ?If I were a "real woodworker" I would go rub my plane blade on the side walk and " just get on with it". Mel assures me it is all that is needed to turn out them block fronts and what have you.As it is I just think it cool that when I hold the blade under a desk lamp the blade is such a mirror I can clearly read the wattage stamp on the bulb of the lamp. It is a little known fact that if you perform this ritual occasionally that your cabinets will look better. Must be some kind of magic. Quantum physics or hocus pokus.Edited 1/25/2009 12:29 am by roc
Edited 1/25/2009 12:34 am by roc
Roc , Mine sit in water 24/7 no problems. As for the Nagura , I have always used it to clear stone and lay down a slurry. IMO the slurry is an abrasive lubricant, much like honing paste on a tormec leather wheel. attachments below.
Tom
Edited 1/24/2009 10:38 pm ET by gofigure57
attachments
Tom,
Man what are ya doing flashing all those sharpening jigs ? You will get us drummed out of here by the old guard.Do you have specifically a yellow Norton 8000 ? That is what we are discussing and Norton is very specific in saying in their literature not to submerge it.Watson,
For that matter they are specific not to subject the stone to rapid temperature changes like the hot water.
Roc, Sorry I forgot this is Knots , where we stay on topic. My ADD must be kicking in. I was not aware of the literature on the 8000 Norton , Mine are Kings.
As for the jigs, the training wheels come in handy I like to sharpen two at a time , one in each hand.
These threads on sharpening always fascinate me, all the angles / micro bevels/ hollow grind or flat, to jig or not to jig and now Mel throws in dry sharpening on a wet stone. As you can see I had to find out for my self. How long do you think for my 8000 king to dry out?
Tom.
Edited 1/25/2009 7:21 am ET by gofigure57
Tom>ADDNah you and I don't have that. Too old. Our problem is we get TOO fucused. To the point we think short cuts are the solution nobody else thought of. (interesting misspelling I decided to leave it : ) My water cooled spell checker sounds like it is chuckling to itself.>dry out
We could get Mel to calculate it using that Calculous stuff. I bet he could get our task into the computers via the back door at NASA.I guess I was saying my info is from Norton, thats were I got info, but how is your 8000 ( king ) holding up ? Any sign of a problem from being saturated all the time?>had to find out for my selfThat begs the question: did you get the Tormec before or after the last jig for flat stone sharpening ?I never said I don't like the idea of hollow gnd then free hand for SOME just that my round stone has a bad spot.Also: if you hollow grind on the Tormec do you free hand on the flat stone or just use the leather wheel on the tormec. Or Torm then jig ?Hey I am not going to write all the novels here I need some help !roc
who may just dress his Delta wet grinder and use it dry today; it goes super slow probably doesn't even need to be wet; only to keep dust down maybe.
Edited 1/25/2009 12:05 pm by roc
Roc.
8000 /4000 king under water long time ,no problems.
Tormec first or second ? First . I use the trainers for plane irons, I do not care for hollow grind on them.
for chisels I hollow grind then hone on wheel , after that it is freehand on either the Norton 1000 or 4000 king with nagura slurry for touching up the edge
I also use the tormec with the planer / joiner jig to to sharpen them as well when needed.
Tom.
Edited 1/25/2009 9:15 pm ET by gofigure57
"Do you have specifically a yellow Norton 8000 ? That is what we are discussing and Norton is very specific in saying in their literature not to submerge it."I can't find that, either with my stone or with their on-line literature. Can you fill me in on what I'm missing?I leave my 4000/8000 submerged all the time, have done so for over two years. Wonder what the difference is in that and the rest of their stones. Just curious, thanks for the help.Rich in VA
Rich,Not avoiding the question just looking in the old files ( and in the crawl space under the house for the box [ haven't done my morning yoga so that is the next best thing ] : )I found two things but will keep looking.First thing
The folded up hand out called Norton Waterstones User's Guide. It states: The 8000 grit polishing stone needs only a splash of water on the surface to cut properly, soaking is not necessary.That has been said here already so I apologize. There is always the very real danger that I substituted "not necessary" for "not recommended". I am still maintaing in my pea brain that I read "do not leave submerged" so back into the breach.I shall post any further developments.Second thing
is unrelated but post it because they do not mention the slurry for use in sharpening only the cleaning after sharpening. It is the Nagura stone " instructions" that came with the little stone and I quote:
Nagura stone is used to remove accumulated particles from the pores of sharpening stones. Nagura stone should be used for fine stones only. Grits 6000, 8000, 10,0000How to use Nagura stone:
When the surface of the waterstone turns black and loses qualities of cutting and slipping, flush away the water and dress the black area with Nagura stone. Made in JapanIt doesn't say what to flush the water away with so perhaps Philip is onto something with the kerosene : )Gentle readers, just kidding! We are professionals don't try this at home .
ROC,OH NO.
THERE IS A SECOND RICHARD JONES!How can we tell them apart?
Slainte.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>RICHARD JONESMel ! Thank Sharp ! I mean God/song. Wait . . .Glad you are back. Hey I had 'em about to push the "Donate Now" button. But I am getting tired. My typing finger is getting all crampy and I am about out of cr*p, errr emm mean facts to feed 'em.Could ya take over ?
wheeyuuw that was close.
Roc,
You are drinking way too much coffee!
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
> too much jaaavvvvaa ! ! !Again ? ! ?OOPs how embarrassing ! OK.
Thanks Mel
I know I can always count on you. You're a friend.
Roc,
"I know I can always count on you. You're a friend."You know what Sara Palin would have said: "You betcha."MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
9619,Can I call ya Joe ?
Roc,
"Can I call ya Joe ?"Sure, do you need any plumbing done?
Joe MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"OH NO.
THERE IS A SECOND RICHARD JONES!How can we tell them apart?"I'm the non-famous one. Or is that infamous?:)Rich (wishing I could build furniture like the other one) in VA
Rich,
The other Richard Jones is actually in England. He goes by the name of Sgian Dubh, and his complimentary close line is always "Slainte". You can read about him, see him and his furniture inhttp://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/index.htmlI am not sure which of you is the most famous.
Good to meet you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
""Good to meet you""And you, sir.Thanks.Rich in VA
Rich,
I live in Burke, Virginia.
What city do you live in?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,City? Hah!! I'm about a mile northeast of Saylers Creek Battlefield, near Rice. To say it's rural would be, well, VERY accurate..... Way off the road, in the woods, we love it. Closest convenience store is about 9 miles away.........Rich
Rich,
Waddya mean rural? The metropolis of Rice, VA is directly between Lynchburg and Richmond. Heck, you could draw an East-West line through Blacksburg, Roanoke, Lynchburg, Rice and Richmond. It sounds to me like Rice, VA is just about the center of Civilization in the great state of Virginia. You think Rice is bad. You should see Burke. We are looking forward to getting running water, traffic lights and flush toilets. Well, if you ever get up near Burke (near Springfield), please let me know. I have wanted to meet Richard Jones for years. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I have to say thank you for "It is in the skill, not the tools." Some of us are stuck in the old world of real rocks and oil, but it works. Once I have the new shop built and some time on my hands, I'll likely get busy and try some of the new sharpening technology, but I have to say that the Arkansas finishing stone that I inherited from my grandfather is as smooth as a baby's bottom -- I've no idea what the ##X factor is -- and leaves a polish like a mirror on an edge. It's a bit dished on one side from use -- works fine for gouges and turning tools -- and flat as Kansas on the other. I've been using it for 40+ years and don't know where I'd be without it.
However, with regard to, "We are looking forward to getting running water, traffic lights and flush toilets," I have to say there are some things you're a bit confused about. I'll go along with you on the water works, but traffic lights? When we moved to Juneau there was one in town; now there are seven, and every addition has made traffic worse. My ten minute commute has increased to fifteen. Be careful what you ask for man! You might just get it. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Hey Verne,
That hard Arkansas stone is about equivalent to a 2000 grit waterstone. You said it is dished. You can flatten it using sandpaper on glass or using a diamondstone. It should last forever. I use a Norton translucent oilstone and love it. Of course, I would rather have one from my grandfather.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
What kind of woodworking did your grandfather do?
Charles,
"What kind of woodworking did your grandfather do?"He was from Southern Italy. He made caskets for people who disrespected him. :-) Now let's get down to business. Over the past few years, I have changed. David, your lackey Lataxe, says I have become more like you. He must be blind. I post photos of my work and I only post under one name, and I make long posts instead of short ones. I may attack ideas but never people. But I have noticed that I have less patience with people who haven't done their homework. That would be a similarity. But I try to give positive reinforcement and suggest positive changes. That would be a difference.What about you? I have noticed small and subtle changes in your posting behavior. You do seem to be mellowing a tad. Maybe just half a tad. Some of your personalities have dropped out of sight. I heard a rumor that you posted a photo. Is that true? If you really are a woodworker, you sound old enough to be at or near the end of your career. So why would an old person such as you or me, be worried about someone stealing their ideas? If you really have done woodwork, why don't you let us see some of your stuff. For every photo of your stuff that you post. I'll do two. How's that?Lastly, the name TaunTonMacoute has nasty overtones. Derek once posted the following: "there was a lot on one Ton Ton Macoute. He is the Haitian folklaw "bogeyman", an individual who would kidnap children. Later Francois Duvalier (better known as "Papa Doc") used this name for his followers. According to Wikipedia, the Tonton Macoutes were known for dressing in militant clothing comparative of Italian fascist attire. They were also known for wearing dark glasses, wielding machetes, and leaving their victims hanging in a public place as a warning to others. "Are you an intelligent person? Why would an intelligent person pick such a nasty name? But that is irrelevant. Why don't you just use one name all the time, and stop with the mind games on the unsuspecting? An intelligent clever person wouldn't hide behind hidden personalities. An intelligent clever person would publicly revel in his ability to play games (Bill Clinton, for example).So, my suggestion to you is to use one name from now on (not TaunTonMacoute, which makes you look even more like a nasty dumb fool, and post photos of your work? I tried to get you to rehabilitate your virtual personas and to settle down to one a few years back. Here is a second try. I see you as a kind of Jeffrey Dahmer type character but who has a good heart down deep which really wants to come out, and he just won't let it. Just as Obama becoming president has given hope to lots of people who didn't think they could succeed, if you change rehabilitate yourself, think of the hope that it will give the countless others who really want to become good people but didn't think they had a chance to do that. Come on Charles! Give goodness a chance! Use one name. Post photos. Be helpful those who err. The fact that you dont give positive suggestions it the biggest reason that I am not sure you are really a woodworker. Heck if you were a woodworker, you would really know how to help the person. Come on Charles. Show us that u are really a woodworker. I want to know.Glad I got that off my chest. I will probably do this every two or four years. It makes me feel good to help the neediest people of the world. I am trying to adopt many of the tenets of Mother Theresa.Go in peace, my child,
Father MelPS - If you go to Google, and do a Google search, you can do so under "Images". I did s search on "Charles Stanford" under Google Images and found lots of photos of you. I suggest that everyone do it.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I was just curious about what kind of woodworking your grandfather did and also whether you have some of the things that he made.
Edited 1/26/2009 11:10 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
Charles,
None of my known ancestors were woodworkers, including my grandfathers. Another poster said he had a stone from his grandfather. I just responded that I would have like to have a stone from my grandfather too. But all that stuff is irrelevant. You chose not to get into important stuff. Too bad. You have wasted another chance. Remember Charles, today is the first day of the rest of your life. Now is the time to make things right in your life (your virtual life, obviously.)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks Mel.
Mel,Yes, it all has to do with the Space-Time Continuium. Probably has a lot to do with why my furniture/turnings are only occasionally good. It can't be my fault and is more likely a result of the above, plus the Planet Alignment thing. My therapist says it's healthy to lay blame at the right source, so there it is, and I feel all the better for it. If I moved a couple of miles either side of The Line, well, I'd be famous as well as that other guy............Maybe The Government will bale me out(couldn't resist the farming pun).Actually, I live in the extreme suburbs of Rice, over in Amelia County, where we have one (1) traffic light so far. There is talk of another one in the works, maybe next year. We live on a corner of the family farm, whose patriarch is now my b-i-l, whom I help with cows, hay, etc., from time to time, aside from my regular job(s). Ditto from me, if you get this way, or in Farmville, the little lady and I have a store there, our third child, so to speak.Just to try and keep this on topic, I have found that using the Nagura stone on my 8000 Norton results in very little difference as far as my eye can tell. By the time I get what I would call an acceptable amount of slurry, said slurry is pretty darn dry and needs some more H0H to work, then some more Nagura, then spritz, ad infinitum. I will also say that the 4000 side of the stone seems to be very coarse for 4000, and I rarely use it, just doesn't seem to be a help (see opening paragraph). What wood I cut with the results rarely seems to mind that I skipped from 1200 straight to 8000, but for Pete's sake keep that to yourself, as it could very well open up another Can of Worms, so to speak....... And I use a King 800 to true up/clean the other stones. If it gets dished (rare), it goes onto some wet/dry paper glued to the table saw. My therapist says she's seeing some real progress with me being able to actually do some woodwork without having to peer into the mirror polished plane iron backs so often.........Rich (does our flashing light count as a REAL traffic light?) in VA
Rich in VA,Poor in CO here : )Ok I found what I thought was the norton info and it is Shapton after all. It is a skinny band/tag that came with the stone. And says among other things:Do not leave stone in water. Doing so may damage the stone.Do not dry the stone with a fan. Doing so may cause hairline cracks to appear on the surface of the stone.Do not wash stone with hot water. This may damage the stoneetc., etc., etc.,Does not apply to Nortons, though with some of the temp change warnings I am going to be cautious with my Nortons just to be on the safe sideSorry Sapton was specific, Nortons are nearly indestructible. I would still take nearly a full set of the shaptons if I were buying all new stones today. And deep down I am going to pretend that the Norton stone came with a similar user tag but I have searched enough for one day.carry on,
roc
I'm just digesting this thread all in one sitting - and as a person who is just figuring out sharpening it is very interesting. I have a question that is almost the exact opposite of how the thread started (which was is it ok to use a water stone dry?). What about the idea of sharpening completely underwater? First you put on your scuba gear, then you.... Just kidding, what I mean is how about having the waterstones under water, submerged by just a sixteenth of an inch or so of water while doing the sharpening? It seems like this would constantly move away the residue. Any thoughts?Jerry
Hi Jerry,All in one sitting ! Thats gotta hurt. If you have not searched this site I recommend it for better info than this thread. Also see articlehttp://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2793She did an incredible job. Good stuff.Yes that would be a problem because it beats up the sharpening jig. Mine requires oiling and still develops a squeak from time to time and it is getting pretty worn. Also it is a fine line to keep the oil off the stones. The oil would float off and then stick to the stone when you lifted it out of the water.Under water would introduce the grit into the roller and wear out the axle even faster.I do like the idea of the scuba gear so will adopt that. As they will tell you I will do almost anything to add another step to my sharpening and spend more time at it.Just kidding, thanks for being interested, some where in the middle lies the path for most.roc
Edited 1/25/2009 11:06 pm by roc
Jerry,As Roc pointed out, it would work fine, though it would take a toll on the honing guide. If you sharpen free hand, great. As a bonus, the water might magnify the edge so you can get a closer look at the edge.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com) - Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 1/25/2009 11:03 pm by flairwoodworks
>If you sharpen free hand, great. As a bonus . . .Well if you put a little Palm Olive dish detergent in the tub you could condition your finger nails and skin for those "Lovely Hands that people want to touch" ( or what ever it was ) just like in the TV commercial.Come to think of it if you get to going at it with any sort of regular rhythm the water might get to sloshing about and slop out. With me there is no danger of a regular rhythm. Have you seen the movie called The Jerk with Steve Martin ? But for some it could get messyI suppose if you have a sand blasting booth with the arm hole glove openings ( awe I have spent many a statically charged hour at one ) that would contain the storm.roc
Edited 1/25/2009 11:31 pm by roc
Sounds like a dedicated Tormek guy just isn't going to find a seat here...
Jammer, all are welcome, Do you use the Tormec dry?
Tom.
Tom,
"Do you use the Tormec dry?"You are starting to be the funniest guy on Knots.
MelPS I use a Tormek but I don't like to get water on my nice plane irons and chisels. You know, "RUST NEVER SLEEPS". So I have been using Denatured alcohol. It doesn't cause rust. It dries quickly. And if I need to clean a tool, I just dip a rag in my Tormek's basin and wash the tool off. PPS Who would have ever thought that we could get a thread on using dry waterstones up to over 150 posts???????? It is my belief that Knots is about "woodwoekers" but not about "woodworking". Woodworkers are basically loners in the shop, but when they emerge from the shop, they crave the comraderie of other woodworkers. So the topics here in Knots touch lightly on woodworking every so often, but mostly the posts are about gentle banter among like minded individuals.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
So you have a Tormek. That confirms my suspicions. Mel...Tormek-- You are the "Velvet Fog" of sharpening.
Have yourself a slurry little Crystolon.
Ray
Ray,
People have been getting pretty witty around here lately.
You know about the slurry with the fringe on top.
Now you know the real me, Mel Tormek.
How many people will get that joke. You must be in your late nineties if you remember my singing career, before I got into woodworking. I was only kidding when I said that I use denatured alcohol in my Tormek. Actually I use Vodka. I have invented a new drink. I call it the Vodka Slurry Cocktail, or alternatively "True Grit". I don't get serious often, but I will for just one sentence. No I don't have a Tormek. Now back to my alternative universe.When someone comes into the Store and starts bragging about their Tormek or their Worksharp, I am ready for a "Big Sale". I steer them over to the table with the Fein Multimaster, and show them the $750 contractor's version, or better still, to the Festool section. You just gotta love the Festoolians and the Tormekians. They are rich and generous peoples. Have fun.
Mel TormekPS I am off to see your buddy, John, in Winchester today. You need to convince him to make a website. How can a professional woodworker operate these days without a website? He and I have exchanged some emails and one phone call. Seems like a nice guy. I guess he got into collecting pretty seriously for a while. Being a professional woodworker must be extremely profitable.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Melvin Howard Torme[k] , I knew it, So it is you.
Tom.
Tom,
That photo was during one of my chubbier periods. Elvis had them too.
Melvin Howard TormekMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The Reverend Melvin Howard Tormek, Who knew? I have been in a slightly chubby period for some time now, do you think it will pass.
Tom.
Tom,
I have been trying to change my reputation.
No more humor.
Just serious woodworking issues and answers.
Please help me in this regard.
Thank you.
The Right Reverend Melvin Howard TormekMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel , Maybe you could (I am whispering) use an anonymous name , Like Boss Mussolini or Attila Hun Hun. Once you establish the new persona, you could come and go as you please and no one would know. To do it correctly the new personality can bare no resemblance to 9619 . The new personality would be completely void of humor, give short concise answers, and never give way to emotions, sort of KGBish. Another possible alias comes to mind Lem Putin. ( not whispering anymore) You asked for help Mel I am here for ya.
Tom.
PS.. (Whispering again) , Drivers licenses and credit cads kept in separate wallets would help you not to slip up as well as another computer ( IP address).
Tom,
OK, I have changed, based on your suggestion.
Mel PutinPS I have thought of having two names that I post under, but I would make sure everyone knows that. 9619 would remain the fun loving woodworker, while the other would come out once in a while to right the wrongs of the world (Mel Zorro or Batman Mel, for example). I like your idea better == Mel Putin (KGB Woodworker). But alas, I haven't got it in me to use two names, and there are so few wrongs to be righted in the woodworking community, that I will remain a single personality. We have enough (one) multiple personality, who remains an example for all on how interesting a book that "The Three Faces of Eve" really was. Folks with Multiple Personalities really are fascinating. Indeed I have a tee shirt that saysRoses are Red
Violets are Blue
I'm happy to be here,
and so am I. But my favorite tee shirt saysOld Mercenaries never die.
They just go to Hell and regroupMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Mel Putin, KGB woodworker". Sounds like one of the Prairie Home Companion's characters. Glaring at the ticking clock he just built, with steely eyes, "Ve haf vays of making you tock." Along with his brothers Dis, who can never agree with anyone on the best sharpening technique, and Ras, the dreadlocked and dreaded spellbinding finishing guru to the Tsars.
Ray
Edited 1/30/2009 1:37 pm ET by joinerswork
Ray Keillor,
Too bad we missed our chance to make a movie out of Prairie Home Companion. I loved that flick.
Mel PutinMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Was that picture B4 or after ye sang for Daffy Duck?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I had that photo touched up to make me look better. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
go,
Don't get too close! That flower in his lapel squirts camellia oil.
Ray
Hey Mel,
I remember yourn early karear very well,an' I'm not 90 yet! [Getting pretty damn close,the way time runs down the gurgler]
Damn fine singer! Didn't realise it was you that I can now thank for all the assistance in catching them beyootifull young fillies.... b*##%&%d if I remember what we did with 'em then,though...Ah,well.
It seems to me that using alcohol for one's wetstones would solve a number of problems in one stroke. I have always thought water & steel ain't a good mix,and I don't hold with water in me Eau de Vie, would save valuable time goin' from shed to side-board,provide excellent cleaning for oily blades,would provide solace on contemplation of one's latest mess-up,probably the result of fact 2 above,...the possibilties seem limitless.
Ranting again! Just got back from a short break in Tasmania..temperature max. of 28 deg.centipede,to here,max.43 today! More tomorrow,they say.
A day for contemplating one's next few projects,sitting under the garden sprinkler in a state suitable undress,I feel.
Still good to be back,
Robin
Robin,
Good to hear from you.
I see you changed your name,
Why did you do that?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have an early Tormek pre-production and pre-named version. Got a hand crank and motors weren't invented yet.
T.Z.
"Do not dry the stone with a fan"Possibly the best disclaimer ever. I find that hilarious. Can I breathe on it?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>Can I breathe on it?Always sharpen with abated breath . . . hushed until that first arm hair falls.
Holmes,"Man what are ya doing flashing all those sharpening jigs ?" I hear he's a good dancer!Usually, I am good at reading instructions, but perhaps for something as simple as a waterstone I may have glanced over them too quickly. I thought that Norton said that it was unnecessary to submerge the stone, not that it was not acceptable to soak it. Besides, for combo stone owners like myself, am I expected to perfectly level a tub, put my 4000x/8000x stone in, 4000x side first and carefully fill the tub until only the 4000x is covered?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris, Everybody,
I have been away for a while. Just came back and read the last half of the thread. The Chris and Roc discussion has been fascinating. GoFigure's addition of the immense set of training wheels was like putting some seasoning in the stew. Made is much more tasty. Gotta love the guy. Philip brought further fresh ideas to the thread with ways to go other than water. One could read this thread and come to the conclusion that everything works or nothing works. I believe the former. That is, the type of stones you use, and the liquid you use, and whether you use training wheels or not is all "machts nichts" type of stuff. It is irrelevant. You can do great sharpening using any combination or permutation of those things. THERE IS ONE IMPORTANT THING that determines how well you sharpen. Did you check to see that you raised a burr, and then got rid of the burr? If you did, and the angle is close, and the stone was greater than about 4000 then you are fine. In other words, it is not what you use, but how you use it. Did you ever notice that a great guitarist can make a cheap instrument sound good, and a poor guitarist can't even make a great guitar sound good? Same with sharpening. It is in the skill, not the toolsI believe that there will never need to be another thread on sharpening. This thread answers all sharpening questions finally for all time. Yuk yuk yuk. All that cold Canadian air that has been seeping down into the lower 48 has affected my brain.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Y'all hear that? Mel says NO MORE THREADS ON SHARPENING!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>carefully fill the tub until only the 4000x is covered?Two answers:What you aren't carefully filling the tub ? ? ? Do you realize the danger you are putting yourself in and the people around you ? ? ? Drain the tub immediately but only at a rate specified by a .10033 orifice introduce into the side of the tub at the EXACT location of the plane described by the 4000 to 8000 interface.As Arnold Schwarzenegger said in the movie " DO IT ! DO IT NOW ! ! ! ".Second
These are the kinds of paradoxes you must embrace if you are to move on to the "next level" of sharpening enlightenment grass hopper.God is both Sat and Satya, existence as well as truth. Being both He can neither be fully attained through science, which probes truth, nor through arts, which explores existence. Both are incomplete in their search, because they are directed only towards one half of Him. Where both meet, where the mind and heart meet, religion begins. If the mind overpowers the heart, science is born. If the heart overpowers the mind, the realm of art is entered: poetry, music, song, sculpture. Science and Art are dualities, religion is the synthesis.Just substitute words like "sharp" and " song " for God and the secret is revealed. It is all code. You get used to it after awhile : )
Edited 1/25/2009 1:55 pm by roc
Boy, you really go all out when sharpening, don't you. Cover the bench, drag out all your tools, etc. etc. Do you feel that the slurry acts as a finer abrasive?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Nothing to drag out, that bench is dedicated to sharpening. Although I am challenged in other ways I am in no way space challenged, 2800 sq ft to myself.
As for the slurry acting as finer abrasive? Try this , make a little slurry on your stone then take a cotton rag and wipe up some of the slurry paste, now polish the shank on your chisel and watch the slurry turn the rag black .
IMO the my 4000 and 8000 are useless without the nagura stone . I have had the same stones for around 8 years. 1000 norton / 4000 and 8000 kings/ and a 750 diamond stone . I hear a lot of comments on how the water stones are soft and dish out easily. My thinking is they are trying to grind with them as they would on the coarser stones. Once they are honed and need some touch up I drag the chisel edge 5 to 7 times slowly across the stone with a couple of Lapp strokes on the back and they are good to go.
Anyhow that is what works for me.
Tom.
Tom,While I do okay in my 425sqft shop, I wouldn't mind some of yours. I might get lost in such a big shop though.Your slurry polish test only proves that the slurry is abrasive. The jury's still out as to whether it is finer than the stone the nagura is used on. Anyone got an electron microscope?Comparatively, water stones do wear fast. That is, compared to oil, diamond, ceramic stones and glass plate and sandpaper. However, they do cut very fast and that is well worth the wear, in my opinion. You do make a good point though - if you are wearing grooves or badly dishing your stone, you are using too fine a grit to do whatever you are trying to accomplish. I usually take less than half a dozen strokes on a stone, lap of the burr, and go back to work. Sounds like your sharpening habits are much like mine.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hello Chris,
The pictures sort of caught my eye, and I have not been reading all the current messages on this theme, but firstly it is possible to delete pictures-either before posting or after posting-look for the words "manage attachments"
Secondly I believe you have just come to realise the benefits of regular dressing of some types of stone.
Thirdly, since you are in experimenting mode, try some kerosene or paraffin instead of water on that stone you have.
Philip Marcou
Philip,I went back and deleted the extra picture. Thanks for the tip.What do you mean by "regular dressing"? I always maintain the flatness of my stones with a diamond stone, but have just tried a nagura.Kerosine or (liquid) paraffin on a water stone? Really? What possible benefits could this have? You have me curious, but not particularly eager to try it. Anyone else tried these on a waterstone?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Regular dressing is the conditioning of the surface by abrading it which exposes new and sharp abrasive particles. Done with diamond plate or another stone or abrasive paper which are all all harder than the stone being dressed. Diamond plates or dressers are best . Abrasive papers often have the opposite effect i.e they cause glazing.
So if you flatten the stone with a diamond plate you are also dressing it-to my mind more important or useful than flattening.
I advocate the use of kerosene on manmade stones which are normally used with water such as the Kingstone- NOT on natural stones. Obviously I have not tried them all but I think a Kingstone works far better with kerosene and have been using it like that for the last eight years or so. Why does it work? I don't know, but bear in mind that kerosene has the opposite effect to oil when machining some metals.And no flap with rust.Philip Marcou
'ello philip,
Are you not advocating the use of kerosene on natural stones? I've not used the stuff myself (hate the aroma), but have often heard old timers recommend mixing motor oil with kerosene to use as a honing oil for oilstones. Or are you referring to natural waterstones?
Ray
Mel am I holding this correctly? I know the shaving is very thin, yet it falls like a brick . I am thinking that it may be to cold in the shop making the air too dense or could it be the size of the shaving, causing it to lack the proper displacement values for this exercise?
The shavings were made using a LN 4 1/2 sharpened on a 8000 waterstone properly flattened with a diamond plate, and yes the stone was used wet. I made sure the iron was completely dry as to not contaminate the shaving with moisture. therefor possibly making it heavier. As a precaution I dried them in the microwave.
I feel that this is an exercise I must master, only then will I fell confident of my sharpening skills. I am confident that with your background in space stuff you can spread some of your wisdom this way.
Tom, patiently awaiting the ability to make a shaving flutter to earth.
Tom,
First, your shop is the size of an aircraft carrier. Do you employ about 35 helpers?Secondly, the shaving looks beautiful. Ain't it great when it all comes together? To learn how to loft a shaving correctly, you need to watch any of Rob Cosman's videos in which he uses a plane. He is a MASTER of the art of the gentle launch of a shaving into a waft of air which carries it to the heavens. OR like you, the shaving is so thin that static electricity will not let it leave the hand. That is really the ultimate. So maybe Rob has to watch your video.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel , No employees. From what I have seen living here in Texas the last 16 years Via Long Island NY, large shops / homes / trucks / people/ bugs and of late health spas the size of home depot are pretty normal. The wife and I live in a 400 sqft dwelling on the property. posted some pics of my favorite place on earth.
As for the shaving, I must watch that Video.
Tom.
Edited 1/27/2009 6:26 am ET by gofigure57
Tom,
You have a wonderful shop. It wouldn't take me long to get used to it. Do you do large projects -- tables, chests, etc?We are thinking about having a national get-together of Knotheads. I couldn't think of a place big enough to house the group until I saw your shop. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Tom your shop is great. Looks big, more tools than a woodworking store and you even have the dollar each, sale cart, in the foreground of the first picture. LOL.
Wolf, Thanks, The cart is where all those odd tools go once they start overtaking the work table. A catch all cart if you will.
Tom.
Tom,
I can see from here that that shaving is way too thick and short-its almost like a potatoe chip.Go back and sort that plane out.
The secret to making floaters is to plane a ribbon at least eight foot long by two inches wide, one that if wound up into a slim cylinder still allows you to read fine print through it. Then you know it will float on air.Philip Marcou
Philip, I will take your advice as well . I would tend trust your opinion as opposed to Mel , He jokes around to much. You would think at his age, the curmudgeon affect would have set in , he is much too Jovial for me.
Tom.
Edited 1/27/2009 6:41 am ET by gofigure57
Philip,I find that it helps to skew the blade in the plane, thus creating a shaving tapered in thickness. The slightly longer face requires air to move across it at a slightly faster rate than the opposite face, thus producing lift. The same principle makes airplanes fly.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Ray,
I tried kerosene on one or two black natural water stones that I have and found it made them greasy and prevented them cutting. It was a lot of bother to get them right again-had to be soaked in benzine.So I am cautious about advising folk to use kerosene on natural stones.
I would think the old timers mix kerosene and motor oil in order to thin it. Kerosene is used in cutting oils and does no work as a lubricant, and I also think that if used on its own or cut with oil , on oil stones in particular, it speeds up the cutting-which is What We Want because honing is so boring. I use it on my diamond plate and Kingstone- the main items I use to hone with.
Re the smell: it seems that it varies from country to country. Here it is hardly noticeable and definitely none of that residual smell that builds up.In Zimbabwe it had a strong lingering stink.Philip Marcou
philip,
When I was a child, my home was partially heated with a stove that burned "coal-oil" our name for kerosene. The fumes from that thing always gave me a headache, and to this day the smell of kero has a bad reaction with me.
Ray
I hate's to say this, but if you are as old as me, the "coal-oil" that you remember was literally made from coal, and was not kerosene. According to Wikipedia "Coal oil is a specific shale oil used for illuminating purposes. It is sometimes confused with kerosene or lamp oil, but coal oil is obtained from the destructive distillation of cannel coal, (or) mineral wax, and bituminous shale, and hence called coal oil. "My Mam-ma (a.k.a., grandmother, the dash is not optional) used it as a cure all for various and sundry injuries around her little farm. Ax in your shin? Pull it out and pour coal-oil on it. Little annoying cough? Here - a spoon of coal-oil and honey - you won't cough anymore (by golly!). Cow acting kinda funny? Chase it down and pour a smidge of coal-oil down it's gullet. There, isn't that all better?Given it's vast and mysterious curative powers, I'm sure that it might have also been used on Gramp's old, dished, 70 year old, Carborundum Brand oil stone when he needed a really sharp blade on his pocket knife to go ....(graphic farm life description deleted by sudden fit of good sense).
Yup. Then there is Coal Tar shampoo-dogs love it . Makes them run very fast (;)
Edited 1/27/2009 2:25 pm by philip
Philip , I have no clue what coal tar shampoo is and why do the dogs run fast?
It just sounds funny LOL.
Tom.
"Philip , I have no clue what coal tar shampoo is and why do the dogs run fast?"
It was a black thick shampoo made from coal tar , we were lead to believe. At least it smelled like newly tarred roads. Supposed to be used for head lice but we found that it was a good flea deterrent for dogs. Trouble was that most dogs did not like it, the one pictured in particular and would run off like mad-before , during and after application if they could. If he saw me with anything that looked like a bottle with dark liquid he would become very cagey, ready to disappear if his suspicions were confirmed.
The hound you see there is none other than Mr Wadkin. R. Dog, Ridgeback of note and legend in his own time. (Has been seen as a Bench Dog here)Philip Marcou
Thanks Philip.
Tom.
45049.148 in reply to 45049.146 So Philip,
what do you think the chances are that we can run this thread up to 6000 and beat the other one?Just kidding. Ever since I met you (virtually, of course), I notice things on infill planes. There is a guy who has a place near me, named Lee Richmond. The store is "The Best Things". Very interesting set of things they sell. But they have dozens of Norris and Spiers planes for sale. I would have thought they would be going for much higher prices than he has listed. I am not in the market for one. I just thought that you would get a kick out of seeing this guy's inventory. I'd like to hear your opinion. Does he have good taste?See them on:
http://www.thebestthings.com/infill.htmThanks,
Mel.
PS - you might get two notices that I sent you messages but you'll only find one message. The reason is that I deleted the first message because I forgot to add in the website. It's tough to get old.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Does Lee have an actual store front or are you referring to him about his website? I've met him on more than one occasion and we've spoken a number of times on the telephone. Very decent guy and good guy to deal with for purchases. Also, he would be one you should also ask to keep an eye out for you for "hollows and rounds".
T.Z.
Tony,
You have a keen eye for detail. I was referring to Lee Richmond's website, not a store. But his warehouse and offices are near Dulles Airport (I think). I bought my Blue Spruce marking gauge from Lee. He is a very nice and good guy. I can't wait to hear what Philip has to say about the Spiers and Norris planes that Lee has for sale. Lee doesn't have any half sets of Hollows and Rounds right now, but I have located others. I may drive up to see a set tomorrow. My goal is not to become an ultra-galoot, but rather to make moldings to carve. I have two books with excellent chapters on carving moldings, but they give nothing on getting the moldings to carve, and don't say much about the sizes of the ones they are carving, so one has to be flexible. I am finding some router bits that can do the job for some of the moldings, but not for all. I will keep you posted.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mike,
Thanks for the info. Very interesting. Unless real coal-oil smells the same as kerosene, tho, what we burned at home on the farm is the same as what is available from the pump now. I believe the term might have been used interchangeably, or simply as a holdover, where I grew up, as dad always called kerosene "coal oil".
Ray
Hi Ray,I'm just being a smarty-pants, but glad you enjoyed it.As I recall, coal oil was darned near odorless. However, it was used interchangeably with kerosene, and I think in the regions that coal oil was originally available, coal oil was the name that stuck for any application for that grade of flammable. I know that in recent years (last 50) whenever I've asked for "coal oil" what I got was kerosene.Mike D
Hi Mel,
Subject of great interest,is it not?
The methods described and the general discussion have me thinking of and questioning MY routine also.
Like BrianDerr,my exposure to waterstones is fairly recent,and given that when I bought them,they came in their individual boxes,all with Japanese text,[me Japanese is a touch rusty these days,excuse the pun],and nothing in the way of helpful hints,I just stuck 'em all in shallow trays of water,and they live thus full time.
As Chris F observes, and I agree that the steel removed by the 8000 is minute,and as mine is v.wet as I use it,all I get after a dozen or so traverses is a gently grey watery film on its surface which quickly disperses when I put the stone back in its bath.
But I gather I'm doin' the wrong thing leaving it submerged all the time. In fact,as ALL of 'em are currently soaking,should I stop doin this? What do you all reckon?
I'm with Roc and his reluctance to flatten frequently,but I guess if I use the stone dry,and this hastens the clogging process,there is not a lot of choice,is there?
I rather like Buster's reasoning.. Maybe using a courser stone as a flatenner rather than the 'formal' flatenning stone would achieve both 'clean & flat' satisfactorily.
Cheers from 100*F Bowral,
Robin, Phew!
Robin,
I do flattening on sandpaper and diamondstones. I start with sandpaper if the problem is bad. If it is not so bad, I use the diamondstones to get started, and then finalize the item with a 1000 and an 8000 grit waterstone. I use mine wet too. That's why I call them waterstones. If I used them dry, I'd call them airstones.
Good to hear from you,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
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