Last night I settled down to watch some TV and found The Yankee Workshop on the PVR. Norm is always good for a view. Anyway, someone ought to take Norm back to school and show him how to 4 square a board… Or at least some jointer basics.
He has some very rough sawn lumber, he uses the jointer to ‘face’ one side. Then he takes it over to the table saw to square an edge… While I suppose it works, it doesn’t really seem very efficient or safe for that matter (rough edge on fence). Obviously he’s at the jointer, squaring an edge is pretty simple to do.
The other thing why does he always run the sawn edges over the jointer… My sawblade usually gives me a better surface than the jointer.
Anyway, just a rant. maybe some of you have an idea on why he did it this way.
Replies
Buster,
He runs the board over the jointer after the Rip because he gets a bow shaped cut in the edge.
I thought it was because he liked the subtle ripple pattern that the jointer adds to the board...
Buster,
All the jointer does is put a nice straight square edge on the board. It cannot make it parallel to the other side. So if the board was very rough cut as you say, running one edge over the jointer, then running it through the saw is the only way to make sure the board will be the same width along it's entire length
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
MrBill,You are correct in the process steps for squaring up a board. Norm does it the same way.I do not use a lot of plywood but rather glue up panels for various uses. For about 2 years I noticed my boards coming off the TS had a slight bow or banana shape on the edge. I don't have a jointer so I'd hit it with the #7...just a couple of strokes would solve the problem. I tried to diagnosis the cause with my TS, fence, new blade, etc., etc. with no luck. My brother in law made me a tape of Norm's TV programs and one day I saw he had the same issue. I don't remember why he said it happened, or even if he did say, but I concluded this is probably caused from wood movement either due to stress or moisture being released. It also said to me use a splitter on the TS.
Bill,I'm aware of how to make a board 4 square using power tools. Norm wasn't using the table saw to make one side parallel, he was using it to make an adjacent edge perpendicular. This is a process usually done solely at the jointer.All four sides of Norms boards were rough. What Norm did was joint one side (face). At this point he had one flat side and three rough sides. He the took it to the table saw and placed it jointed side down, with one rough edge against the fence. He then cut off the other rough side to make it perpendicular to the first (edge). So no he had two adjacent sides flat and perpendicular. He then proceeded as 'normal' (Over to the planer, and back to the table saw to make the opposite edges parallel to the first).Buster
Interesting I've not seen him do that. I generally do two things at the jointer. First flatten a face, make one edge perpendicular to the flattened face. Next I use the good edge against the fence of the TS to make it parallel to the other edge, and then finish up with the planer to thickness to the final dimension and cross cut to final part lenght. My Jointer the 12" grizz leaves a perfect edge as does my Forrest WWII. Anyway that's how I do it. I guess it don't matter how it gets done as long as its flat & square. BTW, I've also used a no7 to flatten boards.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,Thats essentially how I do it as well. Though I usually rip to width last**. My issue here is that it's neither the most efficient way to do things nor is it the safest. Obviously he's already at the jointer, and having to set up the TS to the correct width... As for safety, he has fairly poor contact with the fence. Good contact with the fence is essential for a safe rip cut.Buster
Did you see the whole show ? I seem to remember on one of his shows he pin nailing a runner to the bottom of a plank so he could use the miter slot to safely cut the first edge on a rough board.
Maybe you didn't see him tack on the strip.
I don't worship Norm but he knows what he is doing around a table saw and has been working wood since he was a tike working with his father.
Besides Tommy keeps him in line : )
roc
Maybe you didn't see him tack on the strip.
While I admit that I fast forward through him making mortises and such. I 99% certain there was no strip. Flat side down, rough side against the fence.
Norm's gettin wild at the table saw sounds like. irresponsible for some of his viewers that are beginners. Which episode was it you watched? Has lots of mortises you say . . .
The Planters desk, it's a brand new episode. Only a few mortises, but I usually fast forward through the shots since I've seen it before.
Not sure if this holds for this episode, but the new ones I have sean, Norm seams to be skipping steps that most of his views may know how to do, and simply saying things like, cut this, or do that, or sq this. I guess this is to spend more time on the more detailed parts of the project. Not sure if he is doing this all the time or just in the couple I watched.
Doug M.
This season they're showing only re-runs. This particular one was from season 9, so it's 12 years old.
Jim
>The Planters desk, it's a brand new episode.OOOOKKKKKAAAA,I just watched it finally. A few observations:This is an old episode; there is no wide belt surface sander in his shop. In latter shows he builds an outside storage attatched to the shop wall for the big stack of wood and puts the big old surface sander in that spot. Also Norm is more jolly about the middle then than now and no gray hair then. He has some gray now.Note that the wood he is using is reclaimed. It has one fresh sawn face from the wood supplier. He says it was from a much larger beam that the supplier cut up. He runs that face over his jointer. He does not run the edge over the jointer to square it because it is old and gritty so he cuts it off. Same as you would cut off the end of a board before planing it so you don't damage your plane blade from grit from the board standing on end.The old fox knows what he is doing. Would have been best to cut off the dirty face on the bandsaw but Norm is a table saw man and like some one said the diry face is machined from long ago so not all that rough.I sure look forward to new episodes but this was one I have not seen. Or my alzheimer’s is worse than I thought.rocPS: there is no . . .In latter shows he builds . . then than now . . .I sound like a Norm groupy. He is great in that he gets people started ! There is soooo much to learn beyond that ! But getting started is a biggy !Edited 1/8/2009 5:30 pm by roc
Edited 1/8/2009 5:35 pm by roc
This is from the NYW website:
Season 21 Premieres January 3rd on PBS "The New Yankee Workshop returns to PBS with a compilation of 26 episodes. Each program will feature a popular project from a past season with new introductions by host Norm Abram."
NYW Season 21When Click and Clack says "The following is an encore presentation" it means a rerun of an old show. Is this the way Norm says it ?. . . program . . . from a past season with new introductionAfter going to the NYW site and reading this some of the projects I have not seen so that is cool. I wonder what is going on behind the scenes. Is Norm taking a year off ?I hope he is doing OKI wish he would get hooked up with iTunes. I would pay for a down load of an episode but I cannot imagine ever paying $25 for a half hour DVD. Am I getting this wrong? Are the videos longer and more detailed than the TV presentation which is less than a half hour.That is where Charlie Rose has always stumped me. I love his interviews and some we want to own but at $25 for an hour we just can't see it ! Can not part with the cash. (I realize a person can watch the postage stamp size online ). Norm wants the same amount for half the run time ! ! !Norm; hook up with iTunes. Charge $2 to 7 dollars.roc
Edited 1/8/2009 11:04 pm by roc
Norm and his NYW crew sell his treasured "measured drawings" for $10.95, or the video and the measured drawing for $24.95. I picked up some of the old VHS tapes (with drawings) when they were clearing those out last year, and I have gotten some of the DVD's with drawings on sale at Rockler. Never have I paid the "full price" as I believe it is too much. (Maybe I'm a thrifty "Yankee" at heart--or maybe My Young Bride is right in saying I'm cheap).
>video and the measured drawing for $24.95Aaah that sounds more like it ! The drawing is important.roc
The NYW website still has several projects in VHS available at 1/2 price:
http://www.newyankee.com/vhssale.php
If you don't mind VHS, the show is there along with the venerable drawing for each project listed. Not a bad deal at 1/2 price.
I've bought a couple of Norms plans built the projects then passed the plans on. I have to admit though the plans are very nice. Good bond paper that stands up well. I tend to thumbtack my plans to my shop walls for quick reference and they stand up well. I'm not so impressed the the plans from FWW. I've bought one set and was not overly impressed. I do wish the older stuff from norm was in DVD. I think they have got most of it in dvd now, but there was one I could only get in vhs had to spend an afternoon getting it over to dvd. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
There are some advantages to being well short of the cutting edge of technology. We do have the DVD stuff, don't plan on Blue Ray any time soon, and still enjoy our old VHS videos pretty well. My hat is off to you for having the wherewithal to change the tapes over to DVD! Our children and their children can always use our old tapes for target practice or something when they divvy up our estate.
Roc,"He does not run the edge over the jointer to square it because it is old and gritty so he cuts it off." I think you're 100% correct. He cuts it off to protect the blades on the jointer. This makes sense. I just saw it again, and I think what got me the first time is he joints one face the over to the table saw "to make one face perpendicular" then back to the jointer. I don't think he actually explains why he's using the table saw.It's funny that it took us so long to get to this point...Anyway, Norm is great. It was just one of those why is he bothering to do that moments. I only have two actual criticisms of Norm... First he has a few tools that just are not common in a amateur wood shops (his target audience). Second I hate his finishing, too much stain (but that is really a matter if preference).
I saw this episode last night and I was confused buy it. If you look at Norm and the shop it is obvious that this is older, but it is listed as a new show. So the old show with new intro would be consistent. I also wonder about the "in the next show we will build" as it shows the funny 3 lobe table, that I can not believe is a popular episode.
It is a shame (wether you like him or not, you have to admit he as drawn a lot of attention to our hobby) that the show seams to be all but dead. It is getting harder and harder in my area to find it. And when it is on, it is either an excuse to build someone he knows a kitchen (last year) or it is re hashing old shows (this year). I do think he need to explain it a bit better at the beginning of the show. He starts off talking about how he would do things different if he was doing it now (longer legs to better fit a chair) and then he kind of fades out.
Oh well, I guess it could not last. Add in the joke that TOH has became and the shows that got me into wood working and architectural design, are all going to pot.
Doug M
Hi Doug,
I just watched a show from a new series (?), a rehab of a Victorian in Newton, MA. More good stuff.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It is a shame (wether you like him or not, you have to admit he as drawn a lot of attention to our hobby) that the show seams to be all but dead.
I hope its not dead. Norm is the ONLY woodworking show we get on PBS up here. I set the PVR to record all episodes, so it's no problem finding it... but I only get one episode a week.
It's difficult to say what Norm has on the go. Perhaps the 'This Old House' commitments are a little greater this year, or perhaps he's taking some 'Norm time'. In either case I hope the show comes back with new projects next year. In the meantime, I haven't seen any of these episodes.
Regarding the cabinets. I kind of enjoyed the series, though I think they could have cut the number of episodes down considerably. The fact that he has some episodes that are a little on the 'construction' side of things is fine with me. I think this type of construction is a good gateway into 'fine' woodworking.
Norm is the closest thing to a true Celebrity Woodworker as woodworking gets. He brings lots of people into the craft. Norm has lots of talent, but I sometime sthink he lets the power tools go to his head... :)
Buster
I am just basing this on the long time between seasons a year or two back, the last season being pretty much the building of a kitchen for a buddy, and then this "season" appearing to be reruns with new intros.
And I remember Norm from when I was a little kid sitting on my dads lap (well I was in the chair next to his in truth) watching the very early (I think season one or two?) TOH. If I recall that was what in the mid to late 70s? I remember when he started New Yankee. Oh well I guess I am getting old.
Doug M.
I could be wrong, but I think I have seen him do it different ways on different shows. There is obviously more than one way to get to the
same ends. Some seem to be more efficient than others depending on the wood, machines, jigs, and know-how available at the time it needs to be done.
I didn't see the show and I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but I can promise you that Norm knows how to four-square stock. He's not Hepplewhite I'll grant but he does know a thing or two about building stuff.
The first pass on the table saw squares and straightens the first edge in one step. You have to do that step somewhere along the way. One pass on the table saw vs how many on the jointer.
This procedure is pretty standard, safe and efficient.
Don
Don,
While he may have to take more passes on teh jointer, he'd have more setup at the table saw. Most of my rough sawn lumber isn't very consistent from piece to piece, so I'd have to adjust the fence for each piece. In Norms case his wood was reclaimed so it's probably fairly consistent. This could very well be the difference, his wood is rough now, but at one time had been 4 square (at least square enough for its original use).
In the end running a rough edge along the fence is not the safest way way to square a board. Following that I'd also never show anybody to do this.
I see you're from my old hood. I grew up in Fort Saksatchewan, and still have many friends and family in the area.
Buster
All,
OK, I'm not paranoid about using the tablesaw. Keep my fingers away from the blade, and my body out of the line of the blade. But as they say, if it seems unsafe to you, it is unsafe for you.
That said, if I am wanting a piece of stock 2" wide and the board is 5" wide, I do not joint a face and an edge and rip off exactly 2". The piece I rip will likely move during or right after the cut, negating the straightening I just did on the jointer.
With a coarse toothed rip blade, (not a WW II, or even a common combination blade, which have very little set) I'll rip the rough board (cut an inch or so over long) 1/4 or 3/8 over wide, let it rest and move, for a while, overnite if possible. Then face-joint, and thickness plane. Then choose the best edge, joint it, rip to 1/16" over width, joint to width. Cut to length.
This might seem like extra work, or wasteful, but it yields flat straight stock, true on all sides, no burn marks. Less work than dealing with crooked stuff, less waste than getting it out again when it moves too much to use. Standard procedure in every shop I've worked in.
Ray
Ray,
Wise words on safety and procedure. I'll often rip boards to rough width, but I'll use the bandsaw. I'm more comfortable with it for this procedure. Maybe I'm mistaken but didn't Richard Jones have a post on ripping without a fence?
Norm was doing this to make the edge perpendicular... I see in your process you also use the jointer to do this. (If I'm reading correctly).
Buster
I did Buster. It is a common enough practice. Snap a chalk line or draw a heavy pencil line using a straightedge and I do sometimes rip the board to the line freehand. I prefer to do this on a big saw with about 7 or 12 horsepower, 16" or greater diameter proper rip blade and a riving knife. The planks I do this to are almost invariably very long, wide and waney edged stuff. I'll also do the same job on a bandsaw... whatever takes my fancy as the right machine for the job at the time.
I don't really understand why people are expressing a wariness of using a table saw to rip rough sawn timber straight from the timber yard against a rip fence. It is an everyday common or garden practice around these parts.
Maybe it's because we use European saws with a European rip fence and riving knife set up, and other safety features absent from most of the American style cabinet saws that gives us woodworkers on the eastern side of the Atlantic the confidence to do what we do. Perhaps the users that are wary of these common operations just haven't been around saws enough, nor really studied how they work to really understand these machines. It is hard to say from this end to see why such wariness has been expressed by so many contributors to this thread. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
The wariness is easily understood when you realise that you and I are manly men, possessed of high courage and great strength of character--and they are not.
hahahaha
Ray
It may be that Ray, or perhaps one or both of us is, or are:
nuts
stupid
out of our head
a combination of any or all of the above
Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
All the above, no doubt, but that I thought went without saying. Then you went and had to say it.
Cheers,
Ray
U R right. I am learning the hard way that wood can not be rushed. I also cut a little xtra so when one piece is too thin after surfacing I don't have to recreate more stock. I have a good sized order and I spent most of the day sizing pieces. It is a great feeling working with wood.
And Calgary is one of my old stomping grounds. Don't like it much any more, to crazy.I still don't follow the concern over Norm's squaring up process.
Now I would not place a bowed or crooked edge along the fence but I would attach said board to a piece of plywood or OSB which has a straight edge. Line it up to either cut off the minimal amount of material or maximize the grain pattern I wanted. One pass, off comes the jig and make the other edge parallel, then to the planer.I do have an 8" jointer so I am not against jointing edges, but in the case of squaring stock, the approach in question is perfectly acceptable to me. I have used both ways and believe either way has its place.Don
Now I would not place a bowed or crooked edge along the fence...
I think this is ultimatly the concern. Norm doesn't qualify it as "this board is straight", it's a now we take this to the table saw to make a square edge.
Anyway, while the method may be viable it's not the best and without qualifiers it could be somewhat sketchy...
I've noticed that the video editors often delete important intermediary steps to keep the video to the necessary length. If one watches closely, it's sometimes obvious that other work has been done to the work piece. As such, the videos shouldn't be considered step-by-step tutorials.
Right now I'm rolling up my sleaves and challenging anyone to a fist fight if they think that Norm is anything less than perfect. He is the modern day Moses of the woodworking world and you better get hip to it.
matt,
I got an extree long crowbar if ye need it ta geet yur tongue outa yer cheek.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I'm with you, brother! Norm consistently manufactures in 20 minutes or less what it may take me days, weeks or months to turn out of my own shop!
May I ask what he was building?
As far as you could tell from television - did it turn out well? Joints seem to fit? Went together reasonably well?
I'm trying to recall an episode where Norm threw up his hands, gave up and told the viewers 'sorry, I'll do better next time.' He's not building original works of decorative art, but at the end of every episode there, persistently enough, sits a completed project. And he still has all his digits the last time I saw him on t.v.
How much success are you willing to argue with?
Edited 1/7/2009 11:44 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
He was building a Planters Desk. The construction was alight, but it wasn't too complicated. M&T construction the aprons to the legs, and a few dado's brad the rest together. He did some shop made molding which I thought was nice. However I thought the design was pretty weak, it just looked really heavy. His choice of finish did nothing to enhance the piece. Kind of had this white pickled look.
Apparently the episode (while 'new') is a re-airing of an old episode. So things make a little more sense now. I thought that his work, the project, and for that matter the show was a little below his regular quality. But it just shows that Norm has grown as well. (Not physically... actually I was thinking that the break between seasons hadn't been to kind to Norms waistline...)
I remember that project. It was a reproduction, as are the vast majority of the furniture projects he builds (not strict reproductions mind you). The design was not his on that project, nor is it on most of the furniture projects featured on the show. Granted, he often takes liberties with the joinery but the overall dimensions are reasonably close to the originals.I've seen other Planter's Desk project drawings and the unifying feature of all of them is a certain unmistakable clunky-ness. It is not a design flaw in that it defines the genre as opposed to, say, a highly refined Federal piece with delicate proportions. It is what it is. That design served a time, a place, and its user. It's a planter's desk for use by a farmer, or otherwise a user-made piece with a 'country' flair (not built by a professional city cabinetmaker of the time). It's not a desk a Philadelphia lawyer would have had built to impress his colleagues and clients.Surely this isn't lost on you is it?
Edited 1/7/2009 12:08 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I've seen other Planter's Desk project drawings and the unifying feature of all of them is a certain unmistakable clunky-ness. It is not a design flaw in that it defines the genre as opposed to, say, a highly refined Federal piece with delicate proportions. It is what it is. That design served a time, a place, and its user. It's a planter's desk for use by a farmer, or otherwise a user-made piece with a 'country' flair (not built by a professional city cabinetmaker of the time). It's not a desk a Philadelphia lawyer would have had built to impress his colleagues and clients.
Surely this isn't lost on you is it?
Of course not. I'd like to say the design is out of character for Norm, however I wasn't a regular view of the show at the time so it's difficult to say. Lets just leave it at: "I didn't like the project."
I have an antique dealer friend that says she could sell every one she could get her hands on - the real thing that is, not a reproduction.Apparently people are softening the look, with country style furniture, of the granite and tile monuments that these days pass as kitchens.That said, there's probably a business opportunity for somebody who could cobble these things together and do a reasonably decent job of distressing milk paint.
Apparently people are softening the look, with country style furniture, of the granite and tile monuments that these days pass as kitchens.
Yes, but a box of frozen fish sticks look great on granite...
You make a good point here. Furniture when take on it's own make look a little clunky. In use however it may be preceived very differently.
It was a working man's desk, not an office worker's desk. In that context the robust proportions and no-nonsense joinery (more than a few casual nails) made a lot of sense.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled