A problem has hit me earlier than expected.
I have glued up a table top (dining table) from solid Oak that will finish at about 2100*105*42 in four planks. I am yet to make the legs etc and had planned to leave finishing the top untill ready to do the lot and I had though about the finish a bit more. Therefore I had left the top with a bit of extra thickness with a plan of comercially jobbing it to a wide belt sander. (lots of pickout on a couple of the boards and I figured the sanding would maximise finish thickness.) The urgency is that this top is going to be sanded this week (not entirely in my control) I can then put it in its final home (tolerant wife who is used to this) but feel it is important to finish as soon as possible.
Not absolutely sure of the species, but it is an off-white colour with some grey tinge and plenty of really good fleck down the centre boards.
The result I want is a soft lustre (if you think of your boots – good brush polish rather than patent leather or a military spit polish) that has the rays a rich gold-brown and the rest a deeper tone. I dont like ‘plastic’ finishes on furniture. I am more than happy if the resulting colour takes several years to age/develop.
The only finishing recomendation that I have so far is several coats of a mid-range shelac to seal and develop colour, followed by buffing with an oil finish – the Australian standard seems to be ‘Organoil’ http://www.organoil.com.au/woodcraft/index.html hard burnishing oil. Not sure how much filler will be required, or what I might use, if I am going to get an even lustre.
Comments and suggestions gatefully received.
Dave
PS. Cliamte difference between shed and house not to bad at the moment so don’t think there will be much movement as it comes indoors. No real rain since Feb and max temps about 18*C
Replies
Its sounds from your description that you have some variety of white oak that has been quartersawn. This is excellent for the table top you are planning. Your options are open on a finish. You need to decide what tone you want overall. Any oil finish will produce a primary tone of warm gold on oak. If that is not what you want, then you should consider dyeing the wood to a darker tone. This can range from darker gold to brown or rather reddish, depending on the dye. Then use your shellac. You may want to use a more durable top coat on the shellac since this is a dining type of table. I use lacquer with a satin gloss. With oak, the wood will not age much, so what you see is what you will always have. To add age, I usually use a glaze or gel stain to fill the pores, between the shellac and lacquer steps. This will truly warm the finish and give it that timeless look. Do some test pieces on scrap before yhou commit the entire piece to the process. The test piece must have all of the steps done on it, but you can do all of the steps in two days on the test samples.
Following up,
Thanks for the comments. The tabletop arrives tonight and I have spent the last week or so trying out the ideas. from a set of six samples, the family likes a midweight concentration of gold stain over a coat of shellac. I used a sanding sealer on the timber, but am not sure if This should be before or after the stain. There seems to be some risk of sanding through the stain irregularly if the sealer goes on last. risk of the stain not being even if the sealer is first. I have tried a proprietary finish i have used successfully before, but it hasn't set.
Looks like a few more samples needed.
Thanks for your advice
David
I'd reccommend that you omit the sanding sealer. They are too soft for tabletops IMHO. Shellac serves the same purpose anyway but I wouldn't use that either. I would reccommend a wipe on polyurethane. You could use a gloss for the first coat or two followed by satin applications. It takes about five to six coats to get a nice finish with a wipe on formulation. Minwax makes wipe ons but I often make my own by thinning (around 40 per cent) with mineral spirits or naptha and a little refined linseed oil (about one tablespoon per quart). I use artist's linseed (not boiled) which helps the flow out and minimizes sticking (you still need to work fast and keep a wet edge though). The advantages of this finish are that it has a very low build , mostly penetrating into the wood surface, which gives a similar effect to that of hand rubbed oil finishes. Yet the polyurethane resin content gives a very tough hard wearing surface that has decent moisture exclusion efficiency. It also is a pretty quick finish to create... slower than a commercial cabinet shop could abide but vastly simpler and quicker than a traditional oil finish, and with a durability that is also somewhere in the middle range.
Thanks,
Used the sanding sealer because that was the instrcutions on the intended finishing product, but as you comment, its pretty soft even after a couple of days. It also clogs even coated paper really fast.
I did a mahogany coffee table years ago with poly and hate the finish but have been really unwilling to refinish because the legs are relief carved and I dont want to risk damaging the carving. so poly and stuff is a bit more daunting than shellac.
do like the idea of wipe-on though - I assume it takes away most of the risk of brush marks and runs.
Dave
What is the difference between wipe-on and brush-on poly? Is it labeled as such? Brand? Thanks in advance.
Thinner. Brush on varnish, including polyurethane varnish (though why anyone would use polyurethane on furniture baffles me), has 50% solids content, give or take. It's viscosity makes it brush well but would drag if applied with a rag. Wipe-on varnish typically has about 25% solids content. It will typically be marketed as a wipe on, or the label directions will suggest wiping on.
Any oil based brush on varnish can be turned into a wipe-on varnish by adding the appropriate thinner. Since a quart of wipe-on sells for about the same as a quart of brush on, it is cheaper to add your own thinner. A 50-50 mix is typically recommended, but the ratio is not at all critical. Because wiping puts on thinner coats of a material with less solids, it takes about 3 or 4 coats of wipe on varnish to be the equivalent to one coat of brush on varnish.
What's wrong with polyurethane on furniture? It's hard, durable, scratch-resistant, easy to apply; what's not to like?
It gives up appearance. First, the poly resin has a subtle haziness; when built to a protectively thick coating this is the source of the "plastic look". The common alternatives, alkyd and phenolic, are plastics too, just don't look that way.
Probably even more important is the difficulty the poly resin adds to rubbing out the final finish to an even gloss. The alternatives alkyd or phenolic are both easier to rub out, though not as easily as lacquer or shellac. This is because they are a bit harder than poly and abrade more consistently.
The traditional resin varnishes are easier to apply than polyurethane varnish because of adhesion problems with poly. For example, polyurethane won't adhere to shellac with wax in it, traditional resin varnishes will stick more readily.
Virtually all of the protective benefits can be had from a traditional resin varnish with either alkyd or phenolic resin. They aren't quite as scratch resistant, but other differences are very minor. Since people don't walk on furniture, at least not with shoes on, I don't see much need for the additional abrasion resistance.
Poly is great for floors and certain industrial uses but its use on furniture is just marketing hype.
It sounds like you'd recommend a regular alkyd or phenolic resin varnish instead; do you have any favorites you'd recommend?
Yes. I like Behlen's Rockhard particularly well. Pratt & Lambert 38 is also very good, and is of a lighter cast, since it is made with Soya oil instead of linseed. McCloskey's Heirloom has been well recommended. Behlen no longer makes my old favorite 4 hour Rubbing Varnish. A close replacement, but a real challenge to find is Quick Rubbing Varnish by Ronan--the same Ronan that is mostly known for Japan colors. I'm not sure it's still being made, its about 2-3 years since I last bought any. I'm just now trying the Sherwin Williams Fast Drying Varnish, but with only one coat on the project I can't say anything yea or nay.
Edited 5/31/2006 10:03 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Steve
So, to get right off the new oak dining table in my initial post; how do i get rid of the poly on my old coffee table (1600*400 with carved legs made from Mahogany) and put a less plastic finish on?
I have not liked the finish on this table since the second coat, but in those days I had to share the lounge room with a 1 year old and I assumed that the poly would be better protection in that environment. He is now 12 and I am prepared to refinish the table, including steaming out a few of his 'character' marks. I am comfortable maintaining a really nice finish on this piece, in spite of its utilitarian function, because we really do look after this room now.
Are these varnishes less heat/ drink sensitive than shellac?
Dave
Yes, all the varnishes, even the traditional resin varnishes, are much less drink and heat sensitive than shellac. To remove the old finish, use a stripper. Varieties containging methyl chloride work most quickly and effectively, but you MUST have lots of ventilation. I say again, LOTS OF VENTILATION.
It is clear to me that Steve Schoene's dislike of polyurethanes is based on prejudice and possibly some long ago bad experiences... I work with this product and many many others daily and I can tell you that it is extremely versatile as well as exceptionally durable. My question would be: "Why use any other finish on furniture". Certainly most (nearly all) furniture manufacturers use nitrocellulose lacquers on their products... BUT I regard this as proof of their total commitment to profits and complete disregard for their customers. Their finishes are disgracefully fragile. I sometimes use Minwax wipe on poly but more often make my own. I like to use Olympic polyurethanes and thin them adding about 1/3 mineral spirits and just a very small amount of refined linseed oil (I get the refined linseed oil from art suppliers... it is the base medium for most oil paints). I use about a tablespoon of linseed oil per quart... or just a few drops for smaller amounts. Early formulations of polyurethanes were often poor in adhesion but that was thirty (or even40) years ago. Todays formulations are nearly all excellent performers in that regard... vastly better than the NC lacquers used by the furniture industry. I can see NO advantage in using alkyd varnish products that cannot be trumped with polyurethanes. The plastic look is a reflection of the skill and artistry of the finisher... not a reflection on the quality of any type of product. I can use polyurethanes to make almost any kind of look... of course I could do that with almost any type of finish product too... my point is that the polyurethanes are one of the best and most reliable and easiest to use and most versatile so that for most people they are an excellent choice... especially in the wipe on formulations, which eliminate most of the tricky issues when applying them. I most often use other finishes but that is because of production requirements... for most professionals (like myself) the relatively slow drying of the polyurethanes makes it less than optimal for most everyday work. Since it dries in less than 24 hours (under most conditions) this is not usually a prime consideration for home or hobby finishers... even I (and other pros) will sometimes find it's versatile qualities worth the hassle of enduring the drying time issues. Hi Ho Poly!!! Away!! (;-)
My comparison of poly wasn't to NC lacquer, except to note that lacquer and shellac both rub out more easily than varnish, either traditional resin or polyurethane. I was simply expressing a preference of one kind of varnish over another kind of varnish. Polyurethane (at least single part) is varnish generally consisting of alkyd and polyurethane resins "cooked" with an oil, whether linseed, tung, or soya, to create a different compound--varnish, that is then thinned to usable consistency for either brushing or wiping. Except for a few negative aspects to poly, there is almost no difference between the two products. Aklyd varnish is also very versatile and extremely durable as well as being at least as reliable as polyurethane varnish. (And poly varnish is susceptible to adhesion problems that alkyd or phenolic are not.) If a craftsman can use poly varnish without getting the plastic look, then he can, probably with more ease, obtain the same thing with an alkyd (or phenolic) varnish. The only significant advantage of polyurethane is abrasion resistance, and possibly cheapness, since so many poly's are consumer grade products. Any alkyd varnish can be turned into a wiping varnish by adding thinner just the same as any oil based polyurethane varnish.
As far as the source of my preference, there have been several occasions where I was working on a project that called for a durable top coat, and for which I bought a quart of about 4 -5 different varnishes, including poly. I applied them to samples of my wood all prepared identically. Invariably, I preferred the tradional resin varnishes, at least at some angles of view. I also asked my wife to indicate a preference and she never selected the poly example, without her knowing which was which. Perhaps this stems from my point of reference. I make antique reproductions, and almost all of them are finished with shellac, which is a clearly better looking material, but does suffer from vulnerablity to certain chemical cleaners (alkali) and certain solvents.
There are actually a lot of us that agree with Steve about poly. It is great for floors. And I also think your recommendation of only 4 or so coats of wipe on poly for a tabletop is inadequate to the task a tabletop will be asked of. Table tops need at least 8 applications, which is not difficult since you can usually do 3 per day. Adding (artist's non-boiled) oil to the mix makes for an even softer finish since I would assume this is raw linseed oil which has a very long drying time--if ever.Gretchen
Gretchen You must not have read my post?? I have used all the techniques I reccommended here many times and can guarantee that they produce very fine results and are way overkill in the durability area if anything. Sorry that you don't like polyurethanes but they are chosen by far more people than any similar product and for very good reasons. Your personal prejudice is not a good reason not to use them. The alkyd varnishes are simply weak soft sisters of the polys with many disadvantages and only imaginary advantages (the adhesion for instance... polys are far better than alkyds which are too soft to stick as well). I did a nice oak floor that was susequently abused... a heavy piece of steel furniture was dragged across it and the foot smashed a dent 4 inches long by 1/8 inch deep into the oak... the finish adhered so tenaciously that it was unblemished... alkyd would have been scraped completely off. I can use additives that soften my polys with aplomb since they are so tough to start with and still end up with a finish that is a great deal tougher than any alkyd product is likely to produce under any conditions. I like shellac and use it regularly as a sanding dealer or penetrating prime coat under water base finishes but for a full finish it is in a whole different league from polyurethanes... nowhere near as tough or durable. What a laugh it is to hear you chide me about the durability of my wipe on poly reccommendations while you are advocating coatings that could be laid on a quarter inch thick and still be poorer protection and then you are still complaining that the poly is too plasticky???!!?? Ridiculous!! This discussion is good though because wood workers who are sentimental finishers have been clinging to these myths about poly for many decades now and the time has come to put them aside and open minds and choose performance based on real properties not imagined ones. I have used poly finishes on the finest sort of fine art projects as well as flooring and it is an absolute top performer in every case. I'd not waste my time with alkyd products since I have superior options available for every type of use.
G'day all,
Watching this with interestt still.
I did a built-in last month finishe dwith a tinted satin finished poly. I recieved a favorable comment from someone who's opinion I respect but it is in pretty poor light.
My problem with the poly finishes that I have used is that the poly looks like it is on top of the timber, rather than a lustre captured in the wood. Thats about the best I can explain it except to compare a spit polish with patent leather. I dont like patent leather.
Although I generally think my family well trained with french polish - there is a lot of it in the family - a piece I did for my father a few years ago has a white ring on top from miss-handling. I would rather aviod this if I can. So, there is my tension. I want a better lustre than I have been able to achieve with oil, my poly experience (cheap polys until the last effort) has been very dissapointing.
On the issue of wipe-on. Does this help avoiding dust nibs? Finish time is not realy an issue - I just take over the dining or lounge room for the duration. She is very good.
dave
Many varnishes are too thick out of the can, especially for prime coats. This can lead to the look that you describe (not unique to polyurethanes). The solution is to thin the products. Wipe on polys avoid this issue by coming out of the can already quite thin. You want the coating to penetrate or soak into the wood so that the adhesion is maximized by the intertwining of the wood fibers with the finish... this also produces a wetted out look that avoids the sitting on top look that you dislike. It is poor practice to apply in such a manner as to acheive that look anyway... this can cause poor adhesion... no fault of the material. Some finishers will apply a prime coat of boiled linseed oil to accomplish this wetted look and help to "POP" the grain... personally I dislike this technique as it is very slow and prone to causing adhesion issues... but it does work if you are patient and careful. BTW I have used numerous alkyd varnishes in my career and I assure you that NONE of them were either as hard or tough as any of the polyurethanes that I have experienced. I am not sure where Steve is getting his comparative info but I can tell you that mine comes directly from personal experience. The other strategy that will acheive a close to the wood look is to keep the build on the surface of the wood to a minimum... as Steve has indicated this can affect the durability of the coating and so polyurethanes with their exceptional durability can be kept somewhat thinner than an alkyd coating would have to be for a given level of durability... thus Polyurethanes have an advantage in this regard. The wipe on polys are ideal for acheiving such thin tight finishes because they readily penetrate into the wood and the wiping action tends to limit build on the top surfaces of the wood while filling the pores and fine capillary spaces between the fibers. I only sand between coats when I have roughness that I wish to work out or just before the final coat or to deliberately thin the surface build (this for satin finishes, glosses I do often scuff sand or add hot thinner which helps to bite into the previous coat). I've NEVER had a finish failure due to poor adhesion between coats so I completely disregard Steve's warnings in this regard... It simply is a non issue in my experience (which is VAST). The dust nibs are much less of an issue when using the wipe on finishes but reasonable care is still advisable... the thinner build means that dust nibs are easier to remove and the quicker dry time per coat means that fewer are formed. The wiping pad or cloth will also carry most particles away with it. Do be careful to use a relatively lint free cloth though... I like new unbleached muslin from the fabric store. The tinted poly's tend to be too strongly tinted as well as too thick... thinning them and intermixing with clear versions will give superior results... I nearly always tint my own from clear so that I control opacity/transparency and also know what pigments I have used (some commercial formulations use dyes as well as anonymous pigments and this can lead to more fading problems than I care to encounter... also careful pigment choices can acheive looks that no off the shelf product is likely to match).
With all due respect, paragraphs or at least a break in the narrative would make things easier to read and understand. Just a thought.Gretchen
You are quite pasionate about your poly and with VAST experience, it must be the ONLY way.
Seems like everyone else MUST be wrong
yup, both... poly is used by FAR more people than any similar product so I am NOT in a minority opinion here. I guess that you are. Only way?.. of course not... better way?.. superior to alkyd in each and every respect though if cost, toxicity and convenience are of no concern there are still better coatings... but these are not amateur options.
Edited 6/10/2006 9:08 am ET by bigfootnampa
Edited 6/10/2006 9:16 am ET by bigfootnampa
I'm sure you're right on the fact more people use urethane than anything else. Even the most inexperienced person has seen the commercials and heard the term.
Basically, it's idiot proof. ( and that's not a bad thing)
These are also the same suppliers that have given the public the term " feed the wood" They believe that too.
It's clear that you'll set anyone straight that has the audacity to intelligently disagree with your opinion.
That's called oppositional defiant
Lighten up.
Just a few strictly factual points:
In general, alkyd resin varnishes are harder than polyurethane varnishes, not softer, and phenolic resin varnishes are harder than either. Polyurethane varnish is tough not hard--it does not scratch as easily as traditional resin varnishes. Its perfect for floors and kitchen work tables. Because poly isn't as hard it is more difficult to rub out.
The adhesion issues are very real. Polyurethane varnish will not adhere well to shellac with wax in it. (Check the labels.) Traditional resin varnishes, either alkyd or phenolic will. Polyurethane doesn't even stick well to itself if the earlier coats have been well cured. Careful sanding to create a mechanical bonding is essential for polyurethane varnishes unless recoating is done within a relatively short window.
Polyurethane varnish is more susceptible to damage from UV light than traditional resin varnish.
Four coats of wipe-on varnish are about as thick as 1 -- 1 1/3 brushed on coats. Protection from any given product varies directly with thickness of the coating.
(Note that when I refer to polyurethane varnish I mean single-part varnishes which combine alkyd resin and polyurethane resin.)
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