Hi Folks,
Just caught the tail end of HGTV: If Walls Could Talk on the way down from the woodshop last night. They showed a secretarie that had a solid roll top instead of the typical drop down writing surface/door. I’ve never seen one like this one. It was dated around 1880 and the appraiser placed a value of $10,000 on it!
The roll top worked much like that on a rolltop desk but the top was solid not trambours and it rolled back into the desk on curved in the wood guides. It appeared to be made with a veneered burl on the outside, beautiful! Underneath the rolltop was the slideout writing surface but all else looked like any other secretarie I have seen.
The inside of the desk had a gallery and the top was a glass door bookcase with cornice on top; a very elegant piece. Have any of you folks ever seen/heard of a secretarie like this?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/18/2008 10:32 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Replies
Bob ,
I thought this was gonna be about a person !
dusty, but not let down
There is a desk with that kind of roll top in Albert Sack The New Fine Points of Furniture p. 164. It's called a Hepplewhite period design made in Baltimore circa 1790-1810. It has an eagle inlay on the roll top. Wallace Nutting
Furniture Treasury vol. 1, plate 738 has a rollltop secretary dated 1790 and made by Howard Reifsnyder, Philadelphia. This could be a tambor but the roll is so circular and the "track" so slender that I think it could be the solid roll. Another similar desk attributed to cabinetmaker Charles C. Cameron, Shepaherdstown VA (now W. VA) and dated c. 1805 is in Ronald L. Hurst and Jonathan Prown Southern Furniture 1680-1830 The Colonial Williamsburg Collection plate 143.2. It's labeled a cylinder desk. Hepplewhite's The Cabinet-Maker and Upholsterer's Guide 3rd. Edition of 1794, plates 67, 68 & 69 shows the basic form, but they are tambour rolls, not cylinder. Changing one for the other would be a snap as they were being built.
Of course, the form became very popular quite a bit later in the 1870.
Edited 3/18/2008 11:20 am ET by SteveSchoene
My mom has one -- walnut burl. Nice piece, but heavy as a rock. And it's filled with all her nick-nacks and family heirlooms.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike,
You wouldn't happen to have a pic. would ya? I've been all over HGTV and can't find it.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Not handy, but I suppose I could take one over the upcoming holiday get-together.
I'll just tell her I'm documenting my inheritance. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
From what I'm finding, thanks to all these folks, is that these pieces are/can be very rare. Since this morning I have found several more; one even from NH! It was made out of pine.
You're researching to make one right!? OK, I won't say anything about that pile of pieces on your bench. :>) Sorry, couldn't help myself.....................
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Make one? Not my style.
Funny story: When my mom moved to her current apartment, My Lovely Assistant and I did the move. (That's how I know how heavy that secretary is!) As a result of helping carry all the heavy furniture, including the secretary, her forearms got covered with bruises. The next day, when she was donating blood at work, she relayed the story of her busy weekend. The nurse let loose a huge sigh of relief -- "Thank goodnes!", she said. "I thought you had been abused!" I guess in a way, she was. Me too! ;-)
As for the pieces on my bench, they haven't exactly jumped up and assembled themselves yet -- but maybe someday . . . ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hi Mike,
I have been watching that show for a while now. One of the few TV programs I watch. It's amazing what folks find from former owners when they buy houses, especially old ones.
The house that had this secretary had 2 other pieces, a piano and a grandfather clock and all three were estimated to be worth a total of $35,000. I think that was conservative too. And to top it all off, the rest of the house was completely furnished with ornate victorian furniture.
And the current owners bought it for a song!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/18/2008 3:01 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
You quite likely saw a Wooten desk, a patented design from the Victorian era. If you Google the name you can find a lot of information.
If memory serves FWW did an article on them several years ago.
John White
Hi John,
Nope, not a Wooten. I'm familiar with the Wooten desk.
Picture Lonnie Birds secretarie with the slanted drop down top/writing surface and the tall bookcase on top of the base cabinet. On this particular piece there isn't a drop down top/writing surface but instead it slides into the case and has the pullout supporting arms under it.
In place of the typical drop down top/writing surface is a solid roll top like on a rolltop desk. Inside and behind the rolltop is a typical gallery and the outside of the rolltop was covered in a beautiful burl veneer.
Damn, I wish I could find a picture of it, or one like it. I've seen a fair number of secrataries but not one like this one.
Thanks John, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Google Images for a cylinder top desk and you will see quite a few.
Steve,
http://www.danielsantiques.com/antique_furniture_details.asp?stockID=134
Damn, you're good. I don't care what they say. :>)
Now take the above picture and add a glass door bookcase on top and it would look like this one!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Steve,
Googlde roll top secretary and found this: http://www.griffins-gargoyles.com/product.php?productid=91&cat=15&page=
The one I saw was like this one but entirely different wood and the bookcase top had beveled glass doors instead.
Ah, just found this one. Check out the price!
http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/Walnut-roll-top-secretary-2034807_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28221QQihZ020QQitemZ300199327769#ebayphotohosting
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Did it actually sell at the $2500 price, which was so much below the pre-auction "estimate"? I don't quite follow the "live auction" terminology.
Frankly, buying a purportedly 18th century piece without an actual hands on examination would seem crazy to me. Not being able to examine in person would rule out making a "full value" bid if the piece was "right". Therefore if it really were "right" the seller would want to sell in a auction attended in person by real people who can see and touch the items.
For example, I would very much have wanted to turn it up to see if the feet had been shortened. They sure look stumpy to me.
Hi Bob,
My Grandfather had one for many years. Curved walnut frame with walnut burl panel. My brother has it now. I'll see if he can take a few pictures. If so, I'll post them.
Paul
Thanks Paul,
Can't believe I hadn't seen one of these before. I've roamed all over the internet in search of designs for a secretary(rie) and never saw one like this one until that show on TV.
Probably making a big deal out of nothing as it looks like just a variation on the typical slant top. My aspiration is to build a secretarie some day and has been since the first time I saw one a long time ago. Next major furniture project.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Does it look like this?
Yep, it sure does,
I don't recall the curved part going all the way down to include the drawer but it may have. That's a nice looking piece.
Hope you don't mind but I added it to my collection.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks for asking for permission! Some folks don't bother. Let me know if you want interior or detail photos.
It's made of walnut with burl on the cylinder. It has a fancy 'bonnet' that fits on top, not installed in the photo.
My mother purchased it circa 1940 for $12. It was appraised in 1998 for $5,000. I think it dates to the late 1800's.
It originally had a thick red varnish on it. My father stripped off the varnish. Please don't tell the Kenos :) Not sure what he applied as a replacement.
Ed
Thanks Ed,
I appreciate your offer of pics. I would be curious to see anything that might indicate how the cylinder section and gallery are constructed. Especially the cylinders integration into the case. I'm assuming there are curved dadoes in the case sides.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob –
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I put a few shots on Picasa for you.
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http://picasaweb.google.com/ccphotog/CylinderFrontWalnutSecretary<!----><!---->
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There’s one photo taken with the camera inside the cylinder, attempting to show the rotation method. You can see a diagonal board running northeast – southwest. I’ll call it a ‘spoke’. It’s attached to the cylinder front and terminates at the center of the cylinder which is at the pull-out surface elevation. The cylinder front is balanced on the spoke and pivot. The front doesn’t work like a tambour. There is no circular dado.
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I also removed the pull-out and a drawer to expose some of the joinery.
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In another photo, you can see the grain direction in the circular moldings. I speculate that they were made on a shaper.
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The gallery back is curved to accommodate the cylinder front in the open position. The gallery back is covered with thin plywood.
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The upper shelf unit is a separate piece that sits on the base.
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The cylinder front is a mitered frame and panel. I expect the miters are splined and the panel is thin plywood.
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I repaired the pull-out shelf about 25 years ago. In doing so I discovered that the central panel is shop-made plywood. The glue had failed and the panel was rippled. I dunked the whole thing in hot water which attacked the old glue joints and made disassembly easy. The plywood panel came apart the same way. After everything was clean and dry I reassembled.
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Ed
Ed, nice job on the photos and description.
Did you find a makers mark?Ron in Peabody
Thanks, Ron. Honestly, I've not looked for a maker's mark and don't recall seeing one. It's obviously factory-made.
I forgot to include a photo of the bonnet in my first upload to Picasa. I'll have one up shortly. The 'carving' on the bonnet is about 1/16" deep. I suspect it was made with some kind of pattern router or pin router. The ground has frosting which appears to be hand-stamped.
One other thing: the white knobs are not original.
Ed
Ed,
I'm most appreciative of your efforts. Those pics reveal much about the construction details.
I have already made one BIG mistake. I showed them to my wife!
I should think that the cylinder could be made by coopering pieces together.
Here're a couple others I found on the Inet.
View Image
View Image
It's interesting to note that there were different ways these were made, i.e. on the second one the top drawer was flat as opposed to a half cylindric shape that completes the bottom half of the cylinder. I'm trying to find construction details for the latter but so far no luck.
Many, many thanks sir,,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Your photo labelled 3445 looks to be from the same maker as my example. Many details are exactly the same.
Coopering wouldn't be my first choice for the round moldings. It would have several glue joints and discontinuous grain pattern. Finding suitable wood for the moldings and cylinder front will be challenging or expensive, maybe both.
Construction of both your examples would be similar except the one with flat drawers would have a different shape for the case sides (and a flat top drawer).
On the 'best' work, the slideout and the cylinder front are connected so when you raise the front the desk somes out automatically. I've seen one example. The mechanism is metal but I don't recall the details. Don't tell your wife about this :)
Ed
Ed,
Coopering wouldn't be my first choice for the round moldings. It would have several glue joints and discontinuous grain pattern. Finding suitable wood for the moldings and cylinder front will be challenging or expensive, maybe both.
I made a coopered top trunk years ago that has stood up quite well, but is a whole different ballgame than this one. Perhaps a new adventure into veneering is in the future. I know the second pic is veneered as was the piece I saw on the TV show.
I am definitely on track to make a secretarie in the near future. I have wanted to make one for some time now. The wife and I have looked at many of them and once she saw the cylinder top I was/am doomed! (read challenged/fun)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Yes, coopering + veneer would be fine for the cylinder. I misread and thought you were referring to the round moldings on the sides. I'm sorry for the confusion.
Good luck with the project!
Ed
Bob, Bending plywood over a form with a veneered face might be the way to go. Its more stable.
Maybe your wife will buy you a vacuum bag set up. I know, its wishful thinking.............Ron
Ron,
Man were you reading my mind or what!? Your post reminded me that we have an old waterbed liner from a Super sized twin. Do you know if that can be used?
½" baltic birch mebbe.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Here is a similar one to add to your collection. Would love to see pics if you ever get around to making one.
Chris
Psssst,
Don't tell the wife you sent these!
Damn, I never should have revealed my weekness for these things. If I don't stop droolin I'll dehydrate myself!
Thanks man.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/20/2008 3:10 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, that water bed mattress may just have another use after all. It seems to meet all the requirements for a vac. bag. Unibond or xpoxy.
A bending form would be easy to cut and assemble.I think if you make a barrel lid for your self others here want one. Just as a caution, once you have the bag set up your going to want to get into some of that great veneer.1/2 ply no way. but this guy has bending ply in Boston.http://www.boulterplywood.com/http://www.berkshireveneer.com/
http://www.certainlywood.com/Ron
Ron,
As for the cylinder portion of the top I am thinking that ½" would be the right thickness. I would then veneer both sides with perhaps solid wood banding on the edges.
I noticed that Boulter only has max. of ¼" thick?????
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/21/2008 9:07 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Unusual Secretarie..
I had one but I told her I was married at the time and she never understood!
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