Replies

1. 
   JohnWW | Oct 13, 2009 05:19pm | #1

   The Sawstop has been discussed at great length here on Knots. If you use the search function at the top of the page you can find a lot of information on the machine.

   Even if the Delta is every bit as good as the Sawstop in terms of function and design, and the Sawstop is very well designed and made, the Unisaw still won't have the brake that is on the Sawstop. After using a Sawstop for a few years in the FWW shop I have to say that knowing the brake was there added a layer of comfort and calmness to sawing that is hard to quantify but is, in my opinion, certainly worth the relatively small extra cost of the saw.

   John White
   Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998 to 2007
1. 
   JayM | Oct 13, 2009 05:27pm | #3

   Thank you John.

1. 
   JohnWW | Oct 13, 2009 08:07pm | #8

   You are welcome.John White
   Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998 to 2007

2. 
   troys | Oct 14, 2009 08:27am | #13

   I've used the Sawstop industrial cabinet saw and it is a really nice saw. I think the Sawstop blade brake is really amazing but even with out that feature it's a very nice saw.Troy

2. 
   mikeddd | Oct 13, 2009 05:20pm | #2

    Jay:

    I,ve had the SawStop ICS for two years now and realy like it, that being said I think either one would be a very nice saw to use.

   Mike

3. 
   jonnieboy | Oct 13, 2009 05:45pm | #4

   JayM,

   I'll be watching this thread for the opinions on the table saws, but I wanted to jump in and say congratulations on retirement. What an accomplishment. Enjoy!

   --jonnieboy

    

4. 
   brownman | Oct 13, 2009 06:57pm | #5

   Congrats on your retirement Jay! I've been there for just over five years now and I'm enjoying my extended time in the new dedicated wood shop I built as part of my retirement plan. The new Delta Unisaw hasn't been out as long so you may not get as many opinions on that as the Saw Stop, but I don't think you could go wrong with either one. I've played with both of them at Rockler Woodworking store locally and I think if I were choosing just based on that I'd probably go with the Unisaw. Good Luck!
   Danny

5. 
   RickL | Oct 13, 2009 07:38pm | #6

   http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/pk250a.php

   I would recommend a small sliding panel saw over a cabinet saw.  A cabinet saw is only half a saw after using a slider.  It replaces a radial arm saw and miter saw in my opinion and experience of 35 years in factories and custom shops. Common in Europe for even the hobby woodworker.

1. 
   Dave45 | Oct 14, 2009 04:15pm | #15

   Amen to the sliding table, Rick. I got the Jet Supersaw last July and immediately fell in love with the sliding table. My only problem is that it won't handle workpieces more than ~16" wide. A new panel cutting sled is on my to-do list. - lol

6. 
   bones | Oct 13, 2009 07:59pm | #7

   Congratulations! I hope you enjoy the retirement!

   I was married by a judge - I should have asked for a jury.
   George Burns

7. 
   jdubbs | Oct 13, 2009 10:57pm | #9

   Woodcraft magazine did a comparisson of those two saws in this months issue. Check it out!

1. 
   rwdare | Oct 14, 2009 04:52am | #10

   I bought a SawStop right after they came out. Last week my push stick slipped and my thumb went into the blade. ONE DROP of blood! Didn't even need a bandaid. If the same thing had happened on my old Delta, I'd have heeded a hand surgeon.

   In 40 years of woodworking this is the first time I ever hit a running blade. The saw is worth every dime I paid for it and it's one heck of a precision sae to boot.

   Dick Dare

8. 
   rcs47 | Oct 14, 2009 05:03am | #11

   Congratulations on your retirement.  Last spring I finally replaced the tilting table Delta table saw my Dad bought used when he opened his shop in 1947 with a Sawstop.  I decided to go Sawstop because of the safety feature.  Not because I work like a fool, but because accidents do happen.  Even with more that fifty years experience, my Dad was telling me that he got cut by his Unisaw just before he closed his shop. 

    

   If you plan to teach your kids/grandkids woodworking, the security of the brake is great.

9. 
   jphelps7 | Oct 14, 2009 05:25am | #12

   I have a new PCS Saw Stop.  My fence already has a small chip in the almost paper thin melamine face.  Chip knocked out where extension table meets cast iron saw wing.  Probably my fault due to alignment, but the fence face is tooooo thin to hold up over the long haul. 

   The saw is smooth, accurate and reasonably quiet.  Dust collection is superb with the blade cover in place.

   The ICS has large cabinet door openings.  The PCS has very small cabinet door openings......so small I hope I never have any real maintenance to do on it.  Was unaware of this fact before I ordered.

   If I were buying a new table saw tomorrow, I would buy Saw Stop again because  the overall build quality is really good and the brake is like the air bag on my car, hope I never have to use it, but if needed, well there is some comfort there.  I am 75 with declining attention and focus span.   The Saw Stop brake system is now a must for me. 

   I am in my 9th year of retirement.  Hope you enjoy yours as much as I have mine.

   JP

    

    

    

    

10. 
    jointerman | Oct 14, 2009 09:33am | #14

    Congratulations on retirement. Once you get the new saw, we expect to see a new piece out of your shop every month. After all, you're retired now! ;)

    As for what saw. Those two saws were at the top of my list, but I ended up with a small sliding table saw (Grizzly G0623X). For me, here's what it comes down to:

    - What features do you want in a saw
    - What compromises are you willing to make.

    No saw had all the features that I wanted. My decision was based on what would make me work more accurately and safer. This for me was the sliding table saw.

11. 
    jpari | Oct 15, 2009 04:45pm | #16

    Hi Jay,

    Congrats on your retirement! I have been using the SawStop for a year now and love it. The brake gives me great peace of mind. An older member of the woodworking club that I belong to scoffed at the price and said to me that if you are careful you do not need the SawStop. That was before he amputated his pinkey and ring finger. Now he thinks differently. Nuf said.

12. 
    okahun | Oct 18, 2009 03:18pm | #17

    Just want to add my two cents.
    I've never used a Sawstop, I've used Unisaws, Powermatic, Craftsman etc and if your careless you'll get hurt. One thing that I don't care for on the Sawstop is if the brake is activated your blade is destroyed and you have to replace the brake cartridge and blade. I use Forest blades and their expensive and I know my finger is more valuable. I'd be interested in a saw safety system that would operate more like a disc brake on a car, without ruining the blade and having to replace the brake cartridge. I've cut my fingers twice with hand held circular saws and needed stitches. Both times because I was careless and working too many days without a day off to rest. Either saw is good from what I've read. Good luck on your retirement and whichever saw you purchase.
    okahun

1. 
   DonNH | Oct 19, 2009 02:58am | #18

   >I'd be interested in a saw safety system that would operate more like a disc brake on a car, without ruining the blade and having to replace the brake cartridge.

   That would be great if someone could do it.  I'd bet that the sawstop inventor may have even started with that concept.

   The problem is the amount of energy & momentum in the blade vs. how quickly it needs to stop in order to serve its' purpose. If you're driving at highway speeds, it takes a significant distance to stop once you've stomped on the brake (not even counting the time it takes you to decide to stop and then actually get your foot on the brake and push). An immediate stop basically requires running the car into a solid object, with predictable results.  Same with the SawStop.

1. 
   Tinkerer3 | Oct 19, 2009 05:36am | #19

   I follow you exactly.  I suppose that even if you had an internal mechanism that would stop the motor instantly that the belt and saw blade would stretch enough to cause the damage.

2. 
   Mackwood | Oct 22, 2009 05:41pm | #30

   I'm not an engineer but I'm sure you're correct about the energy of a turning saw blade.  I think the Saw Stop is about as good as it will get."Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"

2. 
   forestgirl | Oct 20, 2009 05:41am | #20

   Not all saw blades that've been stopped by the Saw Stop braking mechanism have needed to be replaced.  I've seen several reports from owners who have sent the blade back to the manufacturer and had a few teeth replaced (probably on Forrest blades).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

3. 
   jeffs | Oct 20, 2009 08:00am | #21

   Replacing an expensive blade is around $120, the cartidge around $75 so for around $200 you are back up and running.

   I would be a lot that the cost of an ER visit for stiches is much, much more... and that is assuming no amputation occured (which is a huge assumption)

   I say the SawStop is cheaper in the event of an accident- even with the somewhat higher cost of the saw.

   I wish I had one.

    

4. 
   mikeddd | Oct 20, 2009 03:25pm | #22

    I don't think I would have a problem reaching into my pocket with all my fingers and digging out two hundred dollars if the brake and blade where destroyed. I also use Forest blades and yes they are expensive.

   Mike

1. 
   okahun | Oct 20, 2009 08:59pm | #23

   I think I'm still entitled to my opinion or have things changed? Based on your comments everyone should sell or discard their present equipment and purchase a Sawstop. Because you COULD injure yourself badly. If you have a Sawstop table saw good for you. When I cut my finger or hand you can say I told you so, and I'm sure I will because I don't have a Sawstop table saw. I think I hear the table saw police knocking on my door now, uh uh I'm in trouble.
   okahun

1. 
   PeterDurand | Oct 20, 2009 09:11pm | #24

   And your point is..? 

   Better life through Zoodles and poutine...

1. 
   okahun | Oct 20, 2009 10:32pm | #25

   Right back at you, And your point is..?
   okahun

2. 
   Domer | Oct 20, 2009 11:43pm | #26

   I think the discussion is which do each of us prefer. Some people think that the extra cost of the SawStop is not worth the price. Others think it is. And yes each of us has the right to our opinions.Both are excellent machines and both have their strengths. So I would hope that we don't start thinking that there is only one choice.I looked at both saws and bought the SawStop. So far I have been very happy with it and would probably make the same decision again.That being said, I have read a number of blogs from people who are very happy with the Unisaw. Domer

3. 
   JohnWW | Oct 21, 2009 04:45pm | #27

   When it comes to cutting wood, it isn't hard to be happy with any of the cabinet saws. But once a SawStop saves your fingers you move to a whole new level of happiness.John White
   Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998 to 2007

4. 
   bvhswoods | Oct 21, 2009 09:54pm | #28

   When I first started at my current school, I talked to the Superintendent about purchasing a Saw Stop. There was nothing wrong with our saw that we had (a 1981 Unisaw). When she heard about the safety aspects of the saw and how much it can cost to have fingers reattached, it was a no brainer to her. I was told that she would find the money by the end of the school year. This is our second year with the saw and I couldn't be happier. I do not have to worry as much when students are using it. Last year, the brake did get set off several times due to carelessness. I talked to our sharpener over the summer and he told me that they would check the blades to see how damaged they were. We use Leitz triple chip saw blades which are about 100 each. I was not too thrilled about the possibility of replacing the blades. Luckily, I was told that there was minimal warpage and they should be good to go. I think that if they are hit again by the brake, I will replace them.Craig Patterson
   Woods & Drafting Teacher
   Buena Vista High School
   Buena Vista, Colorado

5. 
   ted | Oct 22, 2009 02:15am | #29

   We switched to lower end blades because of the false triggers. $100.00 / blade is just too much to be trashing. The most we spend on a blade now is $45.00 or so.

5. 
   Glaucon | Oct 22, 2009 06:32pm | #31

   A blade is easier to replace than a hand.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   MarkDMacLeod | Oct 22, 2009 06:46pm | #32

   I've seen the SawStop in action. I was surprised (not that I should have been).I am building a new shop and will be buying a Cabinet Saw Stop. It's pretty hard for me to justify another choice. I know it won't prevent all injuries but on a risk-benefit analysis, it is a no brainer. My hand or even one finger is worth far more to me than the price of a saw even if I blew a blade a month (and in 15 years I have had no saw related injuries). I'm a physician so losing my hand or even a finger would end my career.

1. 
   Glaucon | Oct 22, 2009 07:03pm | #33

   "I'm a physician so losing my hand or even a finger would end my career."Same here.I expect to hear the jibe about the cost of the saw, and who can afford to buy one (rich doctors, etc.)For those with such views I would just observe that it has been widely noted that SS has a very good fit and finish, dust collection, etc- it would be priced in the upper range of the Unisaw, Powermatic, General scale even without the brake. So how much is the safety mechanism worth? $500? $800?Even if it is $800 in cost, over ten years that's less than a hundred a year for a well tested insurance policy. Much less than the cost of the stock that will pass through it in an average month of even a home shop that is moderately busy. If there are any sons or daughters who are anxious to learn (or grandchildren) it becomes a no-brainer.Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about safety and how they want to spend their money. But if you put your opinion out there, others have a right to disagree. Criticizing another's penny-wise, hand-foolish policy does not make us the table saw police. If you have to resort to that kind of rhetorical cheap shot, it just means that your argument is too weak to stand on its merits.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   MarkDMacLeod | Oct 23, 2009 06:19am | #35

   Thanks. I know the cost differential is an issue for many people both professional and hobbyist (I don't like that term but it's out there). For me, and I stress for me, the risk/benefit valuation says buy a Saw Stop. I'm not being a policeman for anyone and don't want to be either (too Orwellian for my liking). But, given how much I like what I do both in my shop and in my work, the SawStop seems the logical conclusion. It is a well built saw, a huge step up for me compared to what I currently use (don''t ask, it's embarrassing) - if I'm gong to buy a saw that I hope to use for another 20 years, the additional cost per year is easier to accept.Now just the issue of the weight - 700 lb! I hope the mobile base is a good as the saw.

2. 
   PeterDurand | Oct 23, 2009 06:39am | #36

   The mobile base is the best I have ever used. 

   Better life through Zoodles and poutine...

2. 
   Tinkerer3 | Oct 23, 2009 05:12am | #34

   I have a friend (general practitioner) who put his hand in a jointer early in his career.  Lost the bone in his right index finger.  I'm sure he missed it but he retired probably fifteen - twenty years ago.

2. 
   okahun | Oct 23, 2009 06:56pm | #37

   Your assuming I'll run my hand into the blade. I'll take the risk that I don't. You and everyone else that has implied that anyone who doesn't have a Sawstop WILL get injured is nonsense. To all the people who own Sawstops I'm happy for you, if you feel safer great. When I injured myself years ago by cutting into one of my fingers (two separate times) I didn't think that damn saw is the problem, I'm to blame. When I fell through ceiling joists while laying out a roof I thought you dumb #### I should have checked to see if there was strapping across the tops of the joists, not it's that 2x8s fault for falling on it's side. I'm sorry that's just the way I'm wired, I look to myself what could I have done to avoid these problems. I know a hand is harder to replace than a blade, duh. Everything I've read about Sawstop tells me it's a excellent saw. But I reserve the right to either like or dislike their safety system.
   okahun

1. 
   Glaucon | Oct 23, 2009 10:11pm | #38

   Perhaps your personal history is the strongest argument for a blade brake- or an air bag, or why the building code requires hand rails on a staircase...Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   PeterDurand | Oct 23, 2009 11:21pm | #39

   :-) 

   Better life through Zoodles and poutine...

2. 
   Tinkerer3 | Oct 24, 2009 05:17am | #40

   I don't think anyone assumes you will run your hand into the sawblade.  But you or anyone else who uses a saw might.  Do you carry insurance on house, life, health.  If you like to take chances, why would you?  Yeah, you might have to carry home owners and maybe even life insurance because the bank says you have to.  Banks don't like to take chances.

   Do I have a Sawstop?  "No."  Will I get one?  "No."  I won't.  I'm 76 years old and if I get hurt, I won't have to put up with it for as long as if I were 20.  I have spent so much that I just don't feel like replacing the 66 that isn't that old and I will take that chance.  My Seventy three year old sweet hear just crushed her elbow a couple weeks ago trying to take my daughters dog for a walk.  Now she has an artificial elbow and the Dr. advised her never to lift more that ten pounds.  Well, that is one of those chances we take by living.

   Edited 10/23/2009 10:22 pm ET by Tinkerer3

   Edited 10/24/2009 12:47 am ET by Tinkerer3

1. 
   Glaucon | Oct 24, 2009 05:38am | #41

   Amen.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

2. 
   user-87215 | Oct 24, 2009 07:36pm | #42

   Without getting into the debate about the SS brake feature,  from what I have read the Delta has a better riving knife feature - it adjusts from the front of the saw, the SS requires you to change from riving knife to a separate knife that supports the blade guard for through cuts. The overall fit and finish of the SS PCS is outstanding - exceptions are the sides of the fence are cheap plywood with thin melamine, and the miter gauge is average.  The SS has onboard storage for the wrenches, miter gauge, riving knife, and adjuster for the blade brake.  The level of fine tuning adjustments, and the detail in the manual, is outstanding.  Customer Support is great, and it has a tool free insert.   Haven't used the Delta so I don't know how it compares in these respects.  For me, the price premium for the blade guard on the contractors saw was very high, but the the PCS it seemed a no brainer.

3. 
   Domer | Nov 06, 2009 11:06pm | #43

   I am a SawStop owner so that may influence my opinion and so want to put that out at the start.Both the Unisaw and SawStop are great saws from what I have seen and read. The Unisaw has a larger table top I asked the Unisaw people at the Woodworkers show here last year, what the advantage of the larger table top made it easier to handle sheet goods. The SawStop people said they made the decision to use the smaller table because most people do not do that much sheet goods on their table saw. So which is better. It depends on what kind of work you do.The Unisaw riving knife is easier to use than the Industrial SawStop but similar to the new Professional SawStop. Edge to Unisaw.The mobile base for the SawStop Industrial is heads and shoulders better than the Unisaw. It costs more but is way better.The Unisaw has nice storage which is a plus. The front mounted adjustment wheels look nice but I don't think make much difference.The two main tool shops here that cater to home based shops both said that the customer service was much better with SawStop. I don't have any experience with Unisaw but the few times I contacted SawStop they were very helpful.The SawStop break system is unique to SawStop but adds to the expense.Which is better? It depends on what you want and your comfort level.I chose the SawStop but not without a great deal of soul searching. Domer

4. 
   jonnieboy | Nov 07, 2009 07:19am | #44

   Barry,

   I wonder if you could answer a question as a SS Professional Cabinet Saw owner.

   The small hose coming out of the blade guard and attaching to the larger dust collection hose -- is it supplied with the saw? I hadn't seen the dustguard hose in pictures until just recently. It might have been in FWW Tools and Shops issue, as a matter of fact.

   I could e-mail Sawstop, but I'm thinking about buying one of these, so I like to hear PCS owners talk about their experience.

   Thanks!

   --jonnieboy 

5. 
   user-87215 | Nov 07, 2009 04:48pm | #45

   Jonnie,  I read in Popular Woodworking that SS is working on an one hose solution - at present, the dust guard comes with an outlet and a small adapter to accept a vac hose, but not the hose itself.  I bought a 4 inch y with a 2 1/2 outlet http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2000899/9525/4-x-4-x-2-12-Y-Fitting.aspx

   I then ran a 4 inch line towards the port in the bottom of the cabinet, installed the 4 x 4 x 2 1/2 y in that line, and used the 2 1/2 line to feed to the upper guard using pvc I had on hand.

   http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/barryvabeach/topSmall.jpg

    

   In that picture, the small white piece sitting on the back of the table is the adapter, I didn't use it since I used a pvc fitting.

   While that setup worked okay, due to the way I routed the hose - too much air went to below the table, so I inserted a baffle ( or restrictor ) in the end of the y heading to the 4 inch port below the table and put a 2 1/2 inch hole in the baffle - so both sides of the y were in effect the same size -  that has worked much better.  The only complaint I have now, and this is whining, is that it works too well.  Before I got this guard I would switch back and forth between the riving knife and the guard all the time w/o hesitation. Now, the difference is dust collection is so dramatic, I don't like switching to the riving knife because I know how much dust is going everywhere. 

6. 
   jonnieboy | Nov 07, 2009 07:34pm | #46

   Barry,

   Wow, thanks. That's great information.

   Don't you hate it when a solution works so well it causes problems with the system you put in place to make up for its deficiencies?

   Sometimes I wonder if I don't have more fun problem-solving a deficient system or tool than enjoying how the original works so well. Well, not really.

   Let me get this right, are you saying the riving knife and the blade guard aren't used together?

   What did you use for a baffle? Would one of those internal pivoting flipper doors work?

   --jonnieboy

    

7. 
   user-87215 | Nov 08, 2009 09:15pm | #47

   While there are some exceptions, for the SS, the riving knife doesn't extend higher than the top of the blade - and is used for non through cuts like grooves or dado's.  There is no way to mount the guard to the riving knife, since it is below the top of the blade ( except for the new Unisaw, that allows you to change the height of the riving knife, without changing the height of the blade).  The SS includes 2 assemblies, the first is the riving knife - it is one piece and once you install it, it goes up and down with the blade.  If you are doing through cuts, you remove it and install the other assembly, which includes a riving knife that is much taller, and the top of the assembly is where the dust guard and the antikickback pawls are attached.  Changeover is very quick, requires no tools, and both assemblies store on the saw.      As to the baffle - if you look at the 4 x 4 x 2  you have  4 inch port sucking air at one and, and directly opposite that is the 4 inch port which goes to the table saw port.  The 2 1-2 y is off to an angle, and due to that, and the sizing, it gets much less than one half of the suction - whien I piped it to the dust guard I could hardly feel any suction at all ( though it still works pretty well in diverting the sawdust even without suction )  The baffle was designed to get more of the suction to the dusct guard and less to below the table.  I used a piece of wood that I cut to fit into the 4 inch flex duct, and just cut a hole in it, a pivoting flipper door would be better since you can dial in how much suction you want to go where - which would be helpful since the way you pipe it will impact how you need to split up the suction. 

8. 
   jonnieboy | Nov 09, 2009 08:18am | #48

   Barry,

   Your information is very helpful. You sure are a good 'splainer.

   Thanks!

   --jonnieboy

13. 
    blewcrowe | Nov 09, 2009 09:26pm | #49

    What's the difference in price for comparable models (stop feature not withstanding)?

     

    Denny

1. 
   JayM | Nov 09, 2009 10:13pm | #50

   Don't have my notes in front of me. But he mid range SawStop is about the same price as the Delta unisaw.

1. 
   KD7NKN | Nov 10, 2009 04:31pm | #51

   As a SawStop owner, I wanted to share a few thoughts.I've never owned a Unisaw so I can't speak intelligently about their customer support, I can however report on the support provided by SawStop; it is a first class organization with knowledgeable people who are always willing to help in a timely manner. As an example, I recently was having a problem with the module that controls the brake. I called customer support and from the first call to the last, I felt as though I was an honored guest in their home. It was not a common problem so the resolution took some time but they stuck with it until the problem was solved. As it turned out, it was operator error, (natch) but through the entire process, they were courteous and professional.I live in Oregon and have had the privilege of visiting their headquarters. I stuck my head in the door to say 'hi' and ended up spending several hours talking with everyone from engineers to stockists. The overall impression I get is that they truly believe in what they build and are excited about it; this saw is as much a mission as a product to them.Cliff“Ars longa, vita brevis"

                                   - Hippocrates