Replies

1. 
   DaveHeinlein | Aug 08, 2003 12:15am | #1

   Hi Cloud, don't feel bad about sneaking in here, I snuck in to BT and this place from somewhere else. :^}

   You should at least get a paper napkin sketch together, and search for a local cabinet maker or furniture maker. Sometimes, as in my case, they live in the same place. What you are asking for is truly custom, and it's not likely that you will find it any cheaper than custom cabinets. If you don't have some kind of real specs(construction,finish) to help, you'll most likely get the highest prices.

   As far as design, what you are putting together sounds like country semi-rustic. Look to items you would see in a 19/early 20th century kitchen. Hoosier cabinets, ice boxes, farm tables,etc. Typical finishes are natural with varnish or shellac, milk paint, oil paints. Bead boards of varying widths, board&batten doors, glazed doors, no fancy trim. HTH,

   Dave

1. 
   CloudHidden | Aug 08, 2003 05:37pm | #8

   >it's not likely that you will find it any cheaper than custom cabinets.

   Let me reword my comments to get at what I really mean, and to also not suggest that anyone should work cheaper than they deserve.

   As I look into having these custom-made, what things should I include and exclude from the design to best control costs? Example...excluding face frames and doors should lead to lower costs, right? It's both less work and less material. No drawer slides...same thing (the client likes the idea of baskets as drawers). Not having any curved wood seems easier than steam-bent, kerfed, or otherwise curved pieces. What are other considerations are there for things that maintain quality, and make for a good cook's-kitchen, while controlling cost?

1. 
   Sancho | Aug 08, 2003 10:40pm | #9

   Jim,

   I would contact Joe Fusco @ http://www.josephfusco.org Hes been doing that sort of thing for a long time. Kitchens are his specialty.  

   Darkworks:  No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.

2. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Aug 09, 2003 12:02am | #10

   Cloud --

     You're right, doors and drawers and slides cost money.  However, doors keep dust and airborne grease away from stuff.  And drawers provide great access to the airspace in the rear of a cabinet.   If you substitute baskets for drawers, I'd suggest you keep the cabinets containing them quite shallow -- more like 15" than 25".

     Moulding is something that turns out to cost more than you might expect.  First, it often costs a lot to purchase.  Second, installing it can be laborious.  I did a kitchen a couple years ago in which perhaps 20% of the installed cabinet cost was in mouldings. 

     If you're considering granite countertops, there are now companies importing prefabricated finished tops made in China.   The cost is astonishingly low -- competitive with Formica.   However, the trick is that you can only have the sizes and shapes they make.   If you can design your kitchen -- or at least some of the pieces -- to fit the stock sizes, you'd get great value per dollar. 

            Jamie

3. 
   DaveHeinlein | Aug 09, 2003 12:02am | #11

   >excluding face frames and doors should lead to lower costs, right? It's both less work and less material.<

   OK, it is less work to not make face frames, but you would still need the plywood edges covered, unless all sides were to be from solid, glued up panels. There, the cost is back up *above* face frames. Doors you don't need. I have built a couple kitchens without cabinet doors, but the interiors need to be finished up to snuff.

   >No drawer slides...same thing (the client likes the idea of baskets as drawers)<

   You can do draws without slides, but I think it will be difficult to use a basket without some sort of glide with a stop.

   As mentioned before, maybe you can find what you are looking for in junque shops and second hand stores. These could be converted to your use by an easy-going, creative cabinetmaker. I have converted antique armoirs into entertaiment centers a couple of times. They looked great, and you would never tell from the outside that the interior was modern day cabinetry.

2. 
   JohnWW | Aug 08, 2003 12:39am | #2

   Cloud Hidden,

   This sounded like an interesting, fun project, one I'd be interested in working on if somebody came into my shop with it, but then I got to the line about saving a bit of money.  You aren't going to do an out of the ordinary, custom kitchen for less than the cost of factory made standardized cabinetry, it just doesn't work that way.

   John W. 

3. 
   YesMaam27577 | Aug 08, 2003 03:19am | #3

   Cloud:

   I agree with the other replies -- that there is a signoficant risk of actually spending more that a standard kitchen for this.

   But you should at least think of going (or sending someone) to every antique dealer within 50 miles. I'll bet that you can find about half of your new kitchen that way; and that you'll get design ideas for the other half.

   For what it's worth, the vision that was conjured in my head was that of a kitchen in a very large Victorian house. The walls were lined with the stoves/fireplace, and with specific-task furniture pieces. The middle was a huge island (maybe 8' X 16'), with cabinet doors below, and hanging space/racks above.

   Edited to include:  I also spend much of my time at Breaktime. My business is such that is spans both building and woodworking.

   Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/7/2003 8:21:36 PM ET by YesMa'am

1. 
   CloudHidden | Aug 08, 2003 04:41am | #5

   Thanks for replies. Don't want to focus too much on the money aspect. Design first. Simpler design without face frames and doors. Nothing to hinge. No drawer slides. No hardware. Fewer pieces be/c things like cans and cereal boxes will be in the pantry. Surfaces that don't need any scribing or fitting--just attach a slab of whatever material to the base. Not trying to trivialize the time to create them, just want to avoid over-complicating the pieces.

   Aside from what's already been mentioned, any other good sources for pieces like this? Any sites that have inspirational ideas or even whole pieces? Most of the sites that google on unfitted kitchen have pieces that are more complicated than I am picturing in my head.

4. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Aug 08, 2003 04:12am | #4

   Cloud --

     That's a great approach to the kitchen in a house where the walls aren't necessarily straight and the corners aren't necessarily 90 degrees.   Trying to use standard rectalinear modular cabinets is quite literally trying to cram square stuff into round holes.

     If you haven't already looked at it, there's a book by a guy who has championed this design approach, Johnny Grey.  It is called The Art of Kitchen Design.

     You could custom-design and custom-build every piece of furniture in the room.  As a custom furniture-maker,  I could happily live off that commision for the better part of a year.  You'd probably spend considerably more money than a comparable rectalinear kitchen whose cabinets are built on a production line.   Instead, you might also consider finding and converting existing pieces of furniture.   One of the points of the unfitted kitchen is that the furniture doesn't match.  It is supposed to look kinda like a kitchen that has evolved in place over a couple centuries.    Look in antique stores for conversion candidates.   (Maybe you could turn the homeowner into the scout.  Some would love the opportunity.)   Maybe an old dry-sink becomes a sink base.   Maybe an old farmhouse table turns into a center island by adding something under the feet to get the top up to the usual counter height.   You'll need a creative and cooperative cabinetmaker, but the results may look better and be less expensive than building from scratch.   Of course, you might find yourself needing to build a few pieces, but the mix of old and new furniture is part of The Look.

        Jamie

5. 
   Manchild | Aug 08, 2003 05:29am | #6

   One of nicest kitchens I've ever been in was an open plan with a realy large table with a microwave on it and etc.. defining the kitchen side of it from the living side.

   It seemed to be like a huge butcher block with open shelves underneath. Very informal and just fun to be around. I'd guess it was 15-20' long and 8' wide.

   Like a big work bench in the kitchen!

6. 
   BG | Aug 08, 2003 01:49pm | #7

   Cloud,

   I have been trying to selling this idea to my wife for 25 years.  I do much of the big cooking and, like woodworking, I'm constantly looking for more efficient layout and design. 

   Part of the issue is that current kitchen design with all the upper and lower cabinets and center islands is both quite efficient and very attractive. To move somone away from this design, you need to offer a substantial upgrade in efficiency and utility....cause it ain't gonna be more beautiful.  In other words, you need a theme that creates greater efficiency and utility and at the same time provides additional space for functionality.  If you look at the typical kitchen, there are five functions that get performed: cook, wash, refrigerate, prepare food and store stuff.  The storage of stuff is the most inefficient and biggest waste of space..and yet there is a lot of cost associated with that storage in both the cabinets and the space taken from the room.  My suggestion to you would be to start with a basic functional design which provides for cooking, refrig. and washing each with a 24x24 surface next to the appliance for work in process and maybe a small cabinet overhead.  After that, two tall simple (1'x2'x7')cabinets that can provide all the storage....one for china, P&P, etc. one for dry stuff.  That leaves your floor wide open for functionality.

   A couple of years ago I built a center island that I had been thinking about for a few years.  My wife was very skeptical so I built it with cheap wood (straight grain fir ie. decking material) anticipating to rebuild if she liked it.  It measured about 31"x31"x36" with a polished granite top.  I put two 10" deep shelves in the front for cook books which left two shelves about 20" deep in the back for pots, pans, baking trays, etc.  The whole thing is on small wheels so it can be pushed aside or up to the stove, etc.  As soon as she saw it in the kitchen she put her arms around it and said mine..don't touch...no, don't replace it....sigh....next time i'll marry for money....lol