Ugggghhhh Grizzly prices way up (20%)
Was totally intent on buying their hybrid (G0478) saw once the Christmas bills came in. It was much more competitively priced than the other Hybrids out there and $745. Looked at it last night and they’ve jumped 20% to $895. Given I can get the Jet or Delta saw locally and would need to pay shipping on the Grizzly plus buy the movable base it is now no better priced than any of the others. I guess they were following the Woodtek which also raised their prices since the FH reviews. I really don’t get it in this economy. My price limit is $1000 and that is pushing it so there aren’t many options.
Their rationale (from an email I got from their customer service) was they held down their prices last year while raw materials and transportation costs went up and the dollar went down. I just don’t see them as a good value any longer, others have longer warranties (Delta 2 yr, Jet 5), The Grizzly has no blade so that’s another $100. You almost always need to pay shipping so add $100 there and they just aren’t the value they were any longer (at least in the Hybrid saw area). Guess they’re banking on their reputation. Good luck to them.
So does anyone out there have a Delta ($949), Jet ($999) or Woodtek Hybrid saws and if so what do you think of them. Also does anyone have the Rigid TS3650? Looks pretty nice as I can actually see it somewhere. Reviews have been very good on it and now they’re coming out with their new Hybrid at $599. That of course opens another can of worms, granite table, how is their fence, new saw?
This is really killing me (my saw burnt out actually the week before Christmas making a present for my wife, so I finally had the excuse I needed. No great loss at least with the old saw it was a very poor junky Craftsman).
Replies
Stand-by for high seas and heave rolls !! Everybody has prices going up because China wants our money so they can lend us more.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I have Delta hybrid with T2 30" fence. I'm pleased with it for a hobbiest's machine where fast cuts through thick stock are not necessary. Of course any hybrid will be underpowered compared to the 3HP and up cabinet saws, but it runs on 120V and takes up little space in a cramped shop.
The Delta was rated in a comparison test of 9 saws as best for dust control and above average for power. Tilt and blade height cranks work smoothly and tilt angle is quite accurate. The included splitter is nice, but not quick to remove for dado or kerf cutting. I removed the anti-kickback tangs and blade guard immediately.
The machine is solid enough with its cast iron table and extensions, to pass the "nickel test" for vibration and the big knee-high front-mounted shut-off switch is just right for hands-free operation.
With the T2 30" fence (a nice "Biesemeier lite" design) it takes up the least space of any saw available, so I can store it against the wall when not in use. The fence moves smoothly, has a very accurate tape measure and can be adjusted easily. Mine is square to the blade within about 1/128". There is enough room on the right side for a shop-built extension with a router plate installed to make a basic router table. I suppose I could get it closer, but I have not tried to. I clamped a shop-built fence extension to the T2 so I could use it for routing.
I bought a mobile base kit from Woodcraft that is easily the best around, especially if you need to push the saw against a wall when not in use. Rear wheels are fixed, fronts on casters and foot plates let the saw down onto fixed feet that won't slip like wheel brakes do when you are sawing. http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=145488&FamilyID=5114
Do not consider a blade included with the saw as anything to influence your decision. You will want to buy a good thin kerf blade for any hybrid saw. Freud offers an excellent combination blade in their "Freud Industrial" line that cuts very cleanly.
I'd make a pretty heavy bet that there will be a BIG sale on Grizzley, with prices below last years prices before the year is out. Costs are one thing--but demand is an equally important determinate of prices, and demand is DOWN world wide.
Companies like to lower prices with sales, or promotions, because they don't appear to be permanent price cuts, making it easier to restore from a marketing point of view (ie. raise) the prices when demand returns.
Purchase a used cabinet saw.
DJK
I have the Jet Hybrid JPS-10 with 30 inch fence in my garage. Been using it about a year now. Oh, by the way, I bought it for 899 and the the price jumped to 999 on Amazon. (probably because of steel prices coming out of China)
I like the saw ok, its got ok power with the 1 3/4 hp motor. I use the Freud Premier Fusion combi blade, but switch to a rip for ripping. Never had a power failure even with 2.25 thick oak. It will never have that scary power feeling like a real cabinet saw, but I'm working with 120 for now. Saw stays fairly clean with the mostly enclosed box. There are holes at the corners of the cabinet that let dust escape constantly so I am the shop-vac wizard after every session. I had a lot of trouble getting the blade to miter slot alignment. The whole assembly on a lot of these hybrids moves when you tighten them. It took three hours to get the alignment to within .002 at which point I threw in the towel. The fence is solid for what it is. It's no biesemeyer, but its been pretty reliable, and hasn't needed re-adjusting since initial break-in.
So basically, I dont think a saw like this is the last saw I would ever want to own, but it gets the job done. I actually want to sell it and get the Steel City granite top for $1400 or get the new delta cabinet saw (about 1400 probably, but gotta re-wire for 220)
The thing is, the Steel City saw, although still classified as a hybrid saw, has a built in riving knife, and the blade to miter adjustment is done with the table, not under the cab. After you have done a few of these, this feature is worth a couple hundred dollars. I think the Woodtek saw also adjust with the table. It looks like this Grizzly saw is still a pretty good value. I cant seem to find any info on how it adjust the blade to slot. You should definately take that into consideration. Looks like no built-in riving knife on the Grizzly.
I can definitely tell you that Rigid TS3650 is no where near the saw that these others are. You're talking the difference between a contractor saw and what's basically a real cabinet saw with the Grizzly. No comparison! I had a contractor saw and sold it after 6 months. If you want to do precision work, get into the next level of saw.
Edited 1/5/2009 11:57 am ET by yamslobber
Ribs
I recently bought the delta for a second saw and am well pleased with it. I keep a stack of dado blades on it and it does just fine.
Mark
I did not read all the replies here so forgive if I missed something.
I had a similar experience with Lie-Neilsen prices. The "hot dog" knob for the miter plane was $100 ! ! ! or more up from $50. Blades were $80 instead of $40 ! ! !
Then I eventually figured out some how I had wound up on a web page priced for Australia !
Wheeeuuu. That was close.
Worth a check of price/location. I got my fingers crossed for ya.
roc
I wonder where all those people who were bitching about Festool announcing a price increase a couple weeks ago are? I don't see them ranting in here for some reason.
Bob
I have been thinking the same thing. Gawd, the childish pouts that came along over that. Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
The price increase should be no surprise. Shiraz Balolia, the president and founder of Grizzly, stated over a moth ago on several woodworking forums that their prices would go up substantially starting January 1st. He stated that the cost of steel and transportation costs were the biggest reason for the increases. He also stated that this past year they held the price on many items that should have gone up in price before the end of the year.
You nailed it, BH. He had printed prices in 2008 catalogs and more or less had to hold the line even though transporting Conex containers rose around $1 K per pop and cast iron rose almost doubled. But... he did warn that prices would increase as he really had no choice.
Sarge.
Edited 1/6/2009 11:15 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Ahh Wish I'd seen those (at least I could have avoided some disappointment and aggravation) , I've only recently started reading all the forums a bit more and hadn't seen it. Thanks everyone for your replies, I don't know where everyone finds these used Cabinet saws, every time I've gone looking for one I find nothing. With the intended saw going out the window and the budget stretched as it is I've ended up going a different route. Almost feel embarrassed by it when I'm sure so many people here would never do this, but I've gone with the Bosch 4100-09 saw, I'm getting a Ridge Carbide blade for it and hopefully will have enough to soon get a real dust collection system in there as well with the money I saved going this route). I perhaps could have waited for the Rigid Hybrid but again the moving thing size and weight (All advantages as well, I know) really made the bigger saws impractical when I thought about it more.
My shop is only 16' X 10' (anyone see an issue with sheet stock) so putting a large cabinet saw in there was not an option, and the idea of having a saw I would have a hard time moving around (and taking up a ton of space, is there actually a ton of space?) probably wasn't the best idea. At least with the Bosch I can set something up outside if need be. I can also use it for other jobs outside.For anyone near Iowa, Someone on the fine Homebuilding site posted about a Steel City Tool Works 35675 10" Table Saw, 3hp for $765. Which looked like a great deal but I didn't see it available for shipping, I didn't investigate too thoroughly. And the Woodsmith store out there , wow, I wish we had something similar here in MA.
Again thanks everyone.
Edited 1/7/2009 9:54 am ET by Ribs
I live about an hour from the Muncy PA Grizzley warehouse. I currently have the 20 inch planer, 6 inch joiner and 17 inch bandsaw from Grizzley. I have been very please with all of them. I went to Grizzley on Monday to buy the G1071 Oscillating Spindle Sander and the G0632 16" x 42" Variable Speed Wood Lathe.
If you have ever been to this Grizzley store you know that the last thing you would think is that they would be out of something. They have two massive buildings, (both mall sized) and they have almost every large machine they sell set up for you to fully examine. I was completely disheartened by the price increase, but I was willing to take the hit as they were still cheaper than Jet and Laguna. What I wasn't expecting is for them to be out of so many things! They were completely out of the G0632 Lathe as well as the next size down wood lathe. They had the sander, but after hearing a salesman tell another customer that they were out of another item, I began to look around to see what they did have.
To give you a very informal estimate, I would say that they were completely out of stock on 33% of their large machine inventory. For a store this size, at the start of a new year, this is really strange to say the very least.
I got to talking to one of the salesmen there. He said that there has been an unbelievable spike in sales of wood lathes and accessories in the past year. He told me that the particular lathe I wanted had been sold out and on back order since December and that there was a waiting list of customers who ordered before the price increase and have not yet received their machine.
This said two things to me:
1. Bad news for me because I wasn't getting my lathe.
2. Great news for turning and the woodworking world as a whole.
Like many of you, I am not happy about the price increase of the machines but it would certainly seem that there is a demand and Grizzley is cashing in.
Shiraz actually post on another forum from time to time and it was mentioned several times. I heard it also from Scott Box who is president of Steel City Toolworks when I worked for them at IWF in August. Scott had a private conversation with Shiraz and it came up.
Steel City raised prices right after the IWF Show as they are smaller than Grizzly and the sharp price increases to them on shipping and cast iron increases mandated either raise the price or sink in the current economy. And BTW.. the little Chinese folks have upped labor cost also as there folks were demanding it. I don't think they want a revolution induced by workers on there hands... do they? ha.. ha...
BTW.. I owned a Ryobi BT 3000 for several years which is similar to the Bosch you purchased. It was an excellent little TS as long as your stock was under 1 1/2" so... if anyone tries to embarass you just tell them to kiss your *ss. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do and that's the way it is and should be..... ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 1/7/2009 11:45 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Ribs,Two things: there is a new/used equipment supplier up on Rt. 125 NH just before Highland Hardwoods. They usually have a few TS in the used department, they also sell new...wish I could remember their name.Second, the cabinet saw has the smallest footprint...the hybred is about the same size. My shop is about the size of yours.
"BASE METALS: More pain seen in the near term..Global economic slowdown continues to worsen the demand outlook for Industrial Metals in 2009. Manufacturing conditions around the world have declined to unprecedented territory, industrial production has weakened substantially in most parts of the world and unemployment is rising at an alarming rate.Weakness seen in Auto industry and Construction has led to further deterioration in the base meals outlook. Rising inventories is an important feature, which has pressured prices in 2008, with demand not picking up in near term we expect the inventory levels to grow in coming months.Substantial policy action by governments and Federal Reserves globally – including meaningful fiscal stimulus packages announced by China of $586 billion plan to improve national infrastructure and social welfare projects, should be particularly supportive of infrastructure-related metals usage, the benefits of these policies are unlikely to be felt in the markets much before 2010.Moreover in response to the exceptionally weak demand conditions, sizable production cuts have been made across the metals and much more are expected in 2009."With metal prices hitting dramatic lows, energy prices falling, and a worldwide economic slow down upon us, I don't see how anyone should realistically be raising prices right now. If they were going to raise prices, they should have done it months ago. I am in the energy business and with the current state of things and what we see coming, businesses better be bracing for the worst. I wouldn't have so much of a problem with Grizzly raising their prices if they cut their shipping costs in half.
Considering that scrap metal is piling up stateside as Chinese mills dramatically reduce their output, and oil is trading below 1974 inflation adjusted prices, I find it hard to believe that anyone could claim steel and transportation increases as the reason for a price increase. On a related topic, I got an email from Minimax recently with some eye-popping sales prices on machines. This company, like all the European manufacturers dramatically raised prices in recent years as steel, transportation, and a sky high Euro pounded them, but now it looks like it's a race in the other direction as all 3 of those factors have turned around amid a very severe global economy. My prediction is that the Grizzly price increase won't hold because simply put the market won't accept it.
Between the general state of the North American economy, metal prices falling, fuel prices falling and a major tightening of credit lines I suspect we will see several outcomes. First, I would bet we will see a general shrinkage in inventories for companies like Grizzly, leading to longer lead times for deliveries. Second, I suspect we will see an increase in the number of sale items, just to keep the inventory turning over. Competition in the over the road freight industry should hold prices at their current levels, and may even lead to a reduction in rates as companies like FedEx and UPS will see an opportunity to hammer smaller companies with less room to manuever.Bottom line, I don't expect the price increases to hold up but I do expect Grizzly customers will have to wait longer to actually get their sweaty hands on a new tool, especially if its a popular model.Regards,Ron
The other thing that has me worried is the quality of product in the future. With the market getting tighter and not able to make much of a profit, will some manufactures sacrifice quality to make/save a little bit more money?I almost hate to say it but at least we can always buy good machines from guys going through hard times and willing to sacrifice them to make ends meet.
Edited 1/7/2009 10:06 pm ET by CalebL
My advice, if you can wait, look to buy in early fall - by then we should start seeing sales or finally price declines. Our economy is setting up for another wave of layoffs, price cuts on homes, etc.
Baby Back,
I use Craigs list here in Phoenix, and have found some good buys on used tools. A lot of folks are folding up shop here since there is so little construction work. A ton of tools are hitting the market.
I did a quick check of Boston Mass Craigs list (also covers other areas in Mass, but maybe you are closer to other areas).
Nice Grizz here, recently added. Check on older listings and haggle, you will be surprised what you will get. Maybe even a Makers Mark?
http://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/tls/980476486.html
http://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/tls/976928097.html read the bottom of this message and you will get my drift. BRAND new 9 year old Unisaw...
Later AZMO
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Edited 1/7/2009 6:38 pm by AZMO
LOL on the baby back, yeah I saw those the day after I ordered my other saw, I had been searching table saw and finally found them when i did a cabinet saw search instead.
Thanks for the effort.
Humour is good these days.... just trying to figure out where you got Ribs from any way, so I figure there must be a really good Baby Back place there that you can' t resist. <grin>
No effort, always fun looking at what is for sale. I swear you can tell the state of the economy by looking at it. When guys sell their lively hood for bucks, it is really rotten. The worst was the mid 70's, I was barely making it then, fresh out of college and framing houses. Finally took a job in Saudi....
So I gather you bought a saw, or did I miss a post?
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
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Actually just a shortened part of my last name, although I do make a mean set of Ribs on the grill with an old family barbecue sauce. There was a time back in high school my brother's friends referred to him as Ribs, I was primerib, younger brother sparerib and Dad was a side of beef.Liked the look of your Earthartlandscape link, that's some nice work. Went to Grad school at ASU and still miss Phoenix at times (especially around Feb., March in the dead of winter up here.)Yes I did buy a saw you must have missed the post. I've gone with I've gone with the little Bosch 4100-09 saw, using a thin kerf Ridge Carbide blade for it. A friend down the street has a similar setup with a small Rigid Contrator's saw and I've recently cut a few things down in his shop and been very surprised with the results. Given the amount of Cabinet work I do (or don't do) coupled with the size of my shop I figured I'd go with this alternative and hopefully have room for a Dust Collection system now. I know I'll have issues with big sheet stock but I've decided to live with that limitation for now. After all this is only supposed to be a hobby right ;-)
Funny story, gotta love those nicknames!! Thanks for the nice comments on my work, it is enjoyable to do, but this recession is going to mess with my retirement plans big time. Oh well.... whats a boy gonna do?
Not to put dry rub on your ribs, but it is a sunny 60 degrees today, the birds are singing and it is a beautiful day. NOW just don't ask me about June.... grin...
Funny about saws and things, you can make do with most anything, but once you use the good stuff it is hard to go back. I have a Delta Hybrid that I regret buying, but it functions well enough not to dump it and get something else. I will be shopping on Craigs list for a good buy later this year. I also find my table and saw is hard for sheet goods, they are plain awkward to handle. I have a Festool 55 plunge saw with a guide that cuts smoother than the table saw with greater accuracy. Costs about as much as a table saw... but well worth it for sheets, otherwise it sits. I have a large closet system to do for my own home and it will get a work out then.
AZMO
They have some great prices on vacations to Phoenix right now, occupancy is very low so play Lets Make a Deal and get out of dodge! <!----><!----><!---->
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I got the 1023slx back in 2002 for 1095 + ship. Its now 1395. Thats an avererage price increase of 2.69% / year. I that don't help you, but I wish my utilities had a price hike of only that much / year. They raised their prices once before and then had sales and special offers. (I still get all the mail). If you can wait I'm sure it will happen again, but if you do get one of their saws you will be satisfied. I still love mine and the BS & the Jointer & horizontal boring machine.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I don't think anyone would dispute the effects of inflation year over year, but what is rather stunning is that amidst a severe economic downturn that Grizzly would raise prices a significant amount and cite transportation and commodity price increases when those two line items have been plummeting as a consequence of the global economy. Scrap steel traded for $650 per ton in June 2008 but by Nov 2008 it had dropped to $210 per ton. Thermal coal went from $171 per ton to $97 in the same period. The Chinese government actually considered a plan to buy up and stockpile steel products because the price had fallen so fast that it was jeopardizing the Chinese steel industry.If a business wants to raise prices because the have not kept pace with inflation, then say it but don't reference input prices as the cause for a price increase when those very inputs are widely known to be decreasing. Technically it may be an accurate explanation when looked at over time but on the surface it has the appearance of being an attempt to hoodwink customers.
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