Replies

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Mar 08, 2003 08:16pm | #1

   Dale, what do you mean by "tung oil"? If you are using a "Tung Oil Finish", it already contains varnish so mixing it with more varnish is not necessary. If you are mixing pure, 100% tung oil, then you will end up with a very soft and slow drying finish.

2. 
   forestgirl | Mar 08, 2003 08:55pm | #2

   I have made this mix several times when refinishing older furniture.  As mentioned, you need to discriminate between true tung oil and "tung oil finish."  I disagree though about the long curing time.  Depends on what you start with.  "Pure tung oil" is not thinned and has no driers added, and is pretty expensive.  A thinned tung oil will apply more easily and dry pretty fast.  Of course, tung oil finish, as mentioned, is already a varnish/oil mix.

   My practice is to make the first couple of coats long on oil and short on varnish, and apply in a fairly thin manner.  Then, for the next two or three coats, increase the varnish to the desired level.  I'll work on remembering details and add below.

   I finally found out, from someone here at Knots, that the reason it's recommended to use gloss and then rub out, etc., is because the gloss provides a tougher finish than the satin. 

   Gotta go meditate for memory purposes.

   Details:  I think I followed my buddy Bruce Johnson basic guidelines, which are pretty straightforward.  Proportions can be anywhere between 75% oil/25% varnish (for less protection, more of an oil-finish look) and 25%oil/75% varnish (more protection, but less of an oil look).

   Warm the mixture, work into wood with a cloth.  Let sit (10-15mins?) and just as it becomes tacky, wipe off excess (in grain direction).  Let dry 6-12 hours, buff lightly (4-ought steel wool), repeat process.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/8/2003 1:07:39 PM ET by forestgirl

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 08, 2003 10:54pm | #3

   Hi Dale - the pure tung oil you're adding to the varnish produces a matte sheen when it cures. By adding it to varnish you get the properties of both the varnish and tung oil. The final sheen will depend on the percentages of tung oil and varnish you use (as well as the sheen of the varnish to start with). For example, if you use gloss varnish and add 25% tung oil, you can expect the sheen to be a semi-gloss when the finish cures. With a 50/50 mix, the sheen will be lower, but may still be too shiny, depending on the look you want.

   The mixture to use depends on the sheen you want in the final finish. If you're looking for a 25-35 satin sheen, you'll do better to use a satin varnish with the tung oil.

   If you add 3% (1 ounce per quart) of japan drier to the tung oil before you thin it or mix it with the varnish, it will cure faster than it would otherwise.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   Timberwerks | Mar 09, 2003 02:43am | #4

   Thanks Paul and

   Thanks to you Forest Girl.

   Paul

   The final look I will be after is a satin sheen maybe slightly above. Will multipule coats of lets say a 50/50 mix with satin varnish build more sheen with each coat? Or maybe even a ratio of 75% oil and 25%  satin varnish? Also to clarify I will be using pure Tung Oil. Another question I still have is mineral spirits vs turpintine is there a difference? I have read where some who use Tung oil prefer turpintine for thining, there resons are unknown to me. I would only use a thined mix for the first coat or two. Following coats I would heat and apply as is. I will be picking up materials tomorrow so if there is anything you can recomend let me know.

   Thanks Paul

   Dale

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 09, 2003 06:03am | #5

   Personally, I would stick with a semi-gloss or gloss varnish.  You can always rub it out some, and the finish will be more durable.  I prefer turpentine, but can't really substantiate that except that for finishing purposes I'm leary of what might be in "paint thinner."  The term is just too generic for me.

   What's your rationale for going to pure, not thinned, oil?  If you're thinning it yourself, are you also adding some drier to it?  Pure, unadulterated tung oil isn't as easy to work with.  See notes about Japan drier above.

   You'll get a feel for the look of the finish upon your first coat drying.  This is a pretty forgiving process.  You might consider starting with 25% varnish/75% oil for the first (or first two) thin coat, see what you think of it, and adjust your next coat (or the coat after) to suit.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   Timberwerks | Mar 09, 2003 06:17am | #6

   Forestgirl

   Do you have a particular varnish you like? I was doing a search for varnish on the woodcraft and rockler sites and it looks as if all they have are wiping varnishes. I would like to just purchase a quart of unthined varnish. Maybe Home Depot or an Ace hardware would have something?

   Thanks

   Dale 

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 09, 2003 07:38am | #7

   Whew!  I hope I put my standard "I'm a novice" disclaimer somewhere up above, LOL! 

   I haven't used varnish for any projects for awhile, but what's on my shelf at the moment is Ace-brand high gloss oil-based varnish.  Could be they were the only store open on the Island the night I bought it, dunno.  Whatever, it did a good job at the time. 

   McCloskey is a good brand, but I don't know if you'd find it at Ace or at HD.

   Just to ask an obvious question -- are you planning to do some test boards with scraps?  [Hint:  the correct answer is "Yes, of course"]

   Have fun tomorrow!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   Timberwerks | Mar 09, 2003 07:52am | #8

   Oh yes

   There will be alot of test's. I will experiment with different ratios and gloss levels. I am looking foward to seeing the results. Thanks for your input.

   Dale

3. 
   forestgirl | Mar 09, 2003 07:57am | #9

   Dale, just guessing, but are you in the Pacific time zone?  It's pretty nice to have someone else actually awake when I'm carousing around.

   Every other weekend, my significant other is in E. Oregon where he works.  So I get to stay out in the shop on Sat and Sun nights, listening to blues and puttering around.  Time to go back out there (before the wood fire goes out).  Happy shopping.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 09, 2003 08:21am | #10

   Dale - mineral spirits (paint thinner) has replaced turpentine as a thinner for the most part. Mineral spirits is cheaper, doesn't leave a residue when it evaporates, doesn't oxidize and go bad in the can, and isn't a sensitizer leading to an allergic reaction. Mineral spirits is produced during the oil refining process and turpentine comes from distilled pine sap. Either can be used as a thinner for drying oils, and oil-base varnishes or paint. Both have health hazards that require the use of solvent gloves and adequate fresh air ventilation.

   Do you have a goal in mind for mixing tung oil with varnish? Why not one or the other?

   How many coats of finish do you plan to apply and what properties does the finish need to have when you're done? Is sheen the primary consideration or do you need a specific level of protection against wear, heat, water, or household chemicals?

   Why do you plan to heat the tung oil (varnish mixture?) before application?

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   Timberwerks | Mar 09, 2003 02:42pm | #11

   Paul

   There is a slight concern for surface protection, I may use this on coffe tables. I am more concerned about the amount of gloss. I would like to end up with a satin or a semi gloss finish. My favorite finish is the T&T varnish oil but I do want more protection than this offers for coffe tables. T&T doees have the look I am after. I would also prefer not to use steel wool or scotch bright to take the gloss down. The reason for this is so no fine scratches can be seen at a low angle. Also since I use T&T I am used to the thicker viscosity and the heating process for applying I actually enjoy it. Also I would like to stay away from drier's I don't mind the waiting. I would stay with T&T for my finish but I like the fact that Tung oil is more moisture resitant and alcohol resitant on it's own. With this goal in mind do you have ratio that would match what I am looking for?

   Forestgirl

   I am in the Central time zone,Wisconsin. I tend to drink coffe at night so sometimes I stay stay on a little later plus this way I don't have to watch the Lifetime movies my wife watches.

   Take Care

   Dale

1. 
   Gretchen | Mar 09, 2003 06:10pm | #12

    I am more concerned about the amount of gloss. I would like to end up with a satin or a semi gloss finish

   I think you are making this much harder than it needs to be.  While some here do not recommend wiping on a satin varnish finish I have done it with no problem.  You must keep the varnish well stirred to keep the flattening agents in suspension while yo make your dilution with mineral spirits. I also swirl my mixture as I am wiping it on. Alternatively you can wipe on your gloss varnish and finish your film finish with 2 coats of satin wipe on.  Then no rubbing out of the gloss finish will be necessary.  So far as adding tung oil, etc. you are just making a long oil varnish.  And finally you might try using non-poly varnish--McCloskey and Pratt and Lambert are good brands available at quality paint stores.  They give a less plasticky look to your finish with more depth.Gretchen

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Mar 09, 2003 08:20pm | #13

   >>I like the fact that Tung oil is more moisture resitant and alcohol resitant on it's own.

   Dale, the amount of moisture resistance and alcohol resistance of pure, 100% tung oil is so small as to be almost undetectable. Neither linseed oil (T&T) or pure tung oil is a good choice for durability.

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 09, 2003 08:32pm | #14

   Dale - the T&T varnish oil is a highly refined polymerized linseed oil combined with varnish resins. It's a durable finish in it's own right. The fact that you can apply multiple coats to build a film and semi-gloss sheen indicates the product has the properties of a varnish rather than a drying oil (linseed or tung). It has a long cure time, so it gets more durable as the weeks go by. T&T has info on their products at this link - http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/products.htm . It looks like T&T is based on damar varnish resin, that comes from distilled pine sap (just like turpentine) and the proper thinner is turpentine. Damar resin varnish is unique - it must be thinned with turpentine, not mineral spirits.

   Polymerized oils dry faster, and are harder and more durable than raw oils. They produce a smooth, glossy finish, whereas raw oils produce a matte sheen. Combined with varnish resins, they are even more durable. Using tung oil mixed with varnish, in place of the T&T varnish, will not increase the durability of the finish, and will actually be less durable.

   If you want the durability of varnish, but want the color of tung oil, use a varnish that contains tung oil. Waterlox is such a varnish and others are listed at this link - http://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/017.html . When a drying oil like tung oil, linseed oil, safflower oil, soya oil, etc. are cooked with resins to make varnish, the end product is a LOT more durable than the oil alone. The wear, heat, water, and chemical resistance are many times greater than the oil alone.

   Different varnishes are based on different oils and resins and the final color of the varnish can range from almost clear (Pratt & Lambert #38 and McCloskey's Heirloom) to a warm amber (Waterlox, Behlen's RockHard, and other listed at the link in the previous paragraph). The color of the finish, it's durability, sheen, and maximum thickness are the key factors in choosing one oil-base finish over another in most cases. You can take a very durable finish, like Waterlox, and apply a few thin coats for the look and feel of an oil finish but get the added protection of a varnish (though more coats builds a thicker, more protective film).

   Paul

   F'burg, VA