Replies

1. 
   bleubassplyr | Jul 10, 2004 06:03am | #1

   I've done the upgrade route. I advise that you save up and get one top notch tool at a time. I still have a 6" jointer. I wish I had bought a good 12" jointer years ago. I have an old 12" band saw. It's ok at best. I have a Grizzly cabinet saw that I upgraded to a couple years ago and it's great. Buy the best you can afford. Inferior tools and machines can lead to accidents. Good equipment will make tasks easier and more enjoyable, not to mention save time by being more efficient.

   There are more old drunkards than old doctors.  Ben Franklin

2. 
   sjay001 | Jul 10, 2004 06:27am | #2

   Hi Dave,

   I started out with some cheaper tools years ago and have upgraded. Not that I'm making a fortune now but with some luck I have been successful. Invest in tools that will allow you to do your job to your satisfaction. Professional quality tools are always great to have and work with but you will be surprised what you can accomplish with less expensive tools, good craftsmanship, and a little ingenuity. I stared out with a cheapie Delta 10" table saw and built a lot of jigs to get good results. When I purchased my Jet 10" cabinet saw that was so good out of the box, I couldn't believe how accurate and easy to use this saw is, however, I still remember that old Delta and all of the work I did with that saw. It's a dilema but buy the best you can afford.

   Good Luck

3. 
   dondownunder | Jul 10, 2004 08:45am | #3

   Dave

   I concur with the previous posts, & would agree that not every thing has to be top line stuff.

   I started out by buying what I could afford by setting up a seperate account from which a % of my pay went into, when it had built up to a predetermined value I then bought what I thought was the appropriate quality. I made some mistakes but in general it has worked out, I now run a small workshop with 2 staff members & many of those original purchases are still used every day.

   Don 

4. 
   keith1947 | Jul 10, 2004 11:07am | #4

   Hello Dave

       Having  struggled with the same problem for over 40 years I think DONDOWNUNDER uses the right phrase when he said APPROPRIATE QUALITY. I have some tools that I only use now and again so  mid priced will be ok and I make allowances for lower power motors, flexible fences etc. What I did try and do was to include part of the cost of any machine required for a particular job in the quote price.I do believe it,s not always the tool you use but how you use them that makes the most difference. For many years we were members of a camera club and in club competitions if we were awarded a winning place somebody would usually over coffee say" you must have a good camera to take photos like that"not the case we had basic cameras with good lens.

                You could try garage sales or auction sites for good second-hand items.

                               all the best

                                Teabag

5. 
   BG | Jul 10, 2004 04:24pm | #5

   Hey Dave,

   I've only been at this about three years but I'm amazed how both my needs and perspective has changed over that relatively short period of time.  Initially I just wanted to build some bookcases and maybe a center Island for the kitchen and Norm had given me the confidence that it could be done...if I just had something to plug in...so off I went to the big box store.  Like you, I have three kids but the last is a junior in college this year...so while the finances are a bit better the Rules Engine (Mom) needed to be appeased that any woodworking expenditures would not cut into her budget (mom budget = all the money I earn).  A small monthly allotment was agreed to and that is what I work with plus brithdays, etc.

   I bought all the cheap wrong stuff and bookcases were built.  Once I wanted to move away from plywood and began dabbling in real furniture all the plug in stuff needed to be upgraded. However, real furniture requires a lot more hand work if you have the time or much bigger equipment if you don't...eg. wide belt sanders, bigger jointers, etc.  I have limited space and I'm still on a budget, so I have gone the hand work route.  Like you, I'd love the Two Cherry chisels and a set of LN planes.  But after a bit of study, I managed to pick up an assortment of high quality chisles for a few bucks a piece and a basic set of Stanley planes for an average of $25 bucks a piece...and while it taken a bit of time to tune and learn how to use these I would not swap them out for anything. Also, I picked up some Disston saws and some used Starrets rules.

   Surprisingly, IMHO once you migrate to real wood and furniture making, the power tools are used much less for the hobbiest...and not as many are really needed.  Perhaps the most important tool is the Workbench.  Second in order would be bandsaw or cabinet/contractor saw...from there the utility of the power tools really drop off....router table, drill press, chop saw.  I happen to have a lathe but that is another story.

   One of the things I've learned along the way is there is a huge learning curve with this hobby...there is all the technique stuff, wood knowledge and design aspects just to name a few catagories.  All the power tools do is cut wood but also require a huge learning curve too.  I'm having more fun focusing on the woodworking learning...

   My sugestion is read some of the articles in FWW and think about building what you see there instead of what you see Norm building....you'll find yourself much more able to live within your budget and craving the power tools a bit less.

     
6. 
   notDusty | Jul 10, 2004 06:22pm | #6

                   Hi Dave ,

         I started out like many others , with more desire and less ability and little equipment . I bought a chest full of older carpenter type tools. The tools were still very sharp when I bought them , they had been used a lot but not abused.That was about 30 years or so ago and I am still using many of the hand tools.As far as chisels go the best I have ever used are like old Buck Bros. and older Stanley and several other old brands. Most can be purchased at flea markets and garage type sales for little or almost nothing. You will have to make or buy new handles and possibly re-work the edge,but the quality of the steel is like night and day compared to many of the new ones.I used an older 10" Craftsman TS for many years , then up- graded to an import contractor type saw . Then a year or so later I bought a Biesmeyer fence (excellent investment) I was able to get the job done.Yes it is less effort when using the Unisaw types and the bigger better stuff. But the work can still be fine.The up side is honestly I have never lost a dime on a used ww machine when a better one comes along.IMHO it is not what you have but what you know that is important.

                               good luck            dusty

1. 
   pauldowns | Jul 10, 2004 10:04pm | #7

   Are you interested in collecting tools or doing good work? If you go to a museum you will see some amazing pieces done without any power tools at all. Even though cheap tools can be frustrating, you can compensate for their weaknesses by developing your own skills. (Even Stanley chisels will cut if sharpened correctly, and the expensive chisels don't sharpen themselves.) Then, when you do find the means to acquire better tools, you will be that much further ahead. And in the meanwhile you will have actually made some nice items, which presumably is what you got into the hobby for in the first place. I would try hard to avoid the trap of never starting or finishing a project because you don't think your tools are good enough. They are. Don't forget that courage is one of your most powerful tools - the courage to get the work done even if the tools aren't all that they could be. Good Luck!

   Paul Downs

1. 
   notDusty | Jul 10, 2004 10:26pm | #8

                 Hi Paul ,

        I think you meant to reply to Dave , but I very much agree with you. Many years ago the owner of a large cabinet shop honored me with his presence in my humble shop. He said he had heard about and seen some of my work and was complimenting me (I think) he then looked around and was shocked at how little machinery I had in my shop. He said it must take you a lot of time to produce anything. I replied , compared to what ? A huge commercial shop has the ability to produce high quality work in a shorter time span , yes , but not better quality than can be produced with  fewer tools and equipment . A shop full of tools does not produce anything , rather knowledge , experience and good old ingenuity is what really counts. When you learn to do quality work with smaller machines and tools , it will become even easier when you get the bigger ones.   Hang in there and continue to hone your craft and try and learn something each day .

                         YOU CAN DO IT                      dusty

7. 
   DavidxDoud | Jul 10, 2004 10:41pm | #9

   BG has it about right,  and the others all make good points -

   almost any project that you want to do will require a workbench,  so aquire or build a sturdy bench with a vice - then chose one tool to build around - - in my case it was a good table saw - - a friend decided to build around a bandsaw similar to the one you desire - this choice has a big impact on the nature of the projects you turn out,  so give it some thought - -

   I've never had a jointer,  always used a hand plane - and a servicable set of stanleys can be had quite reasonably -

   I worked for years without a thicknesser (planer),  using hand tools,  later I aquired a big cast iron 24" (I do a lot of wide board work),  a couple of years ago I got a Delta 2-speed finishing planer - this Delta is very sweet,  and I just got a Tool Crib catalog offering it for $380 - a good value -

   IMO,  a bench and a saw and you can do woodworking - a thicknesser would be high on the list - other tools as the job demands - I would choose to aquire 2 'good' (but maybe not the 'best') chisels rather than a full set of 'mediocre' ones - and then complement that 1/4" and 1" chisel with the specific size needed for the present job -

   the bottom of the line stuff gives little satisfaction,  don't waste your money...

   "there's enough for everyone"
8. 
   Alan | Jul 10, 2004 11:44pm | #10

   Dave,

   Here I go again, always the heretic...though David came close to what I will suggest.

   You apparently are a devoted power tool user.  That's fine, except when you don't have the money to buy even basic, good quality power tools.  I agree that it's rarely a good idea to spend real money on cheap tools; that often means you have to buy the same tool twice.  So where does that leave you?

   TA DAAA!  Hand tools!  (Everyone saw that one coming.)

   For less than half the price of a good quality cabinet saw you can get every hand tool you would need to make lots and lots of things.  For the same dollars as that saw you could have just about every hand tool you would need to do almost anything.

   Hand tools are a way to begin making things even though you have no big power tools.  Learning to use hand tools will give you insights that will improve your wood working when you do get those power tools.  And, to top it off, you wouldn't be "trading up" from your hand tools when you bought power tools; power tools don't make hand tools less useful; hand tools can have a place in even the most electrified shop--they are often the most convenient way, or the easiest way, or the only way to do various things.

   Besides, you might, as I did, learn you enjoy using hand tools more than those forked-tail, screaming, sawdust-spewing devils.

   Something to think about.

   Alan

9. 
   bones | Jul 11, 2004 12:46am | #11

   I know you have heard this before, but get the best tool you can afford. I started with a Lowes $89.00 table saw (little bench top). It was a little piece of junk, but did the job. I threw the fence away and used a piece of wood with C clamps.  I upgraded to a Craftsman RAS. I did ripping (I did not like too much) and cross cuts. It was more accurate but required time and I had to constantly check it for trueness. But again it did the job. I upgraded from there to the shopsmith. It requires a lot of time to change in between operations, but an improvement. For the money you cant beat it. I used craftsman routers & B&D saws.  Only recently have I had the money to improve with Porter Cable routers and circular saws. The Grizzly bandsaw is nice, but I did use a Lowes benchtop for years.  I am only now looking at a cabinet saw. I will probably get the Grizzly instead of the Unisaw because of cost, but I think it will get the job done nicely.  I think you can make nice pieces without the best hardware. In my opinion you can just do it faster and more consistently with better tools.  I made my first project with that little table top saw in an apartment with it laying in the living room floor.  I wonder what the neighbors were thinking when it started?  Don't forget to check the newspaper and E-bay, to mention just a few possibilities, for used equipment. Buying used is a gamble, but will help you cut cost. Good luck.

1. 
   Biscardi | Jul 12, 2004 05:38am | #12

   Lots of good advice above.

   I would add that you should always ask yourself what particular problem buying a certain tool will solve for you. If it is a frustrating problem that occurs frequently and limits your ability to do good work, save up and buy the tool. Prioritize things this way and you will expand without waste.

   Frank

10. 
    Took41 | Jul 12, 2004 05:59am | #13

    My suggestion?  Buy the more expensive tools with the idea to upgrade and buy the hand tools for forever.  Don't skimp on chisels or planes or files or handsaws.  Here is my reasoning: It is very easy to sell a used table saw or cut off saw at a reasonable price when you want to upgrade.  It is harder to sell a used Stanley chisel at anything like the price you paid for it.  Think about this - 35 years from now, you will have a new unisaw, but you only have to buy a good chisel or plane once.  Looking at cost over time, which makes more sense?  Buying six ugly Stanley chisels or one nice one?

    The in between tools like belt sanders, rotory sanders, chop miter saws or routers all have a limited life anyway and you will have to upgrade.  Hope this is helpful.  Took

11. 
    CajunDan | Jul 12, 2004 08:51pm | #14

    A lot of good advice above.

    Speaking as someone who did what you are suggesting - bought cheap tools until I could upgrade. Don't.

    Now that I have the PM66, Delta 14"BS w/ riser, DeWalt planer, etc., I find that I do almost all my precision work with hand tools.

    Sure, I recommend a good contractor TS and planer, but that's about all that really add precision or save time.

    Have fun,

    Dan

12. 
    MarkRoderick | Jul 13, 2004 06:02pm | #15

    If your money is limited, my advice is to never buy a tool new. Scrounge around, take your time and you'll find great tools at bargain prices. Visit woodworking shops and ask about sources, or whether the shop itself is trying to get rid of something. Go to estate sales. Based on stories you read on Knots, you really can get great stuff used if you put effort into it. You should never ever buy anything new.

    Every time another woodworker is "upgrading" it means he's getting rid of something you might want to buy. Everytime a woodworker dies there's a whole shop full of equipment and at least one or two pieces the family is willing to sell.

    Don't get into the whole newest-is-best mentality, which many of us have. Good old stuff is great. I wouldn't even bother visiting showrooms or woodworking shows, except to find sources of used equipment. For example, you might stand by the Felder booth and each time they make a sale, ask the buyer whether he wants to sell you his used stuff.

    Good luck.

13. 
    hammer1 | Jul 14, 2004 02:33am | #16

    Dave, if only we were born rich instead of good looking. Much depends on what it is that you will be doing. A 14" bandsaw with riser would be used for resawing or cutting very thick stock, 6"+, a bench top machine would generally not have the power or capacity for such work. The Inca saw is a benchtop so I can't say, "all benchtops". If you were regularly resawing 12" figured hardwoods for veneers a 3/4 hp 14" Delta bandsaw would be taxed to it's maximum. If you mostly cut 3/4" stock or less a small bench top may be all you need. Same with the comparison between the 10" Ryobi chop and the 12" Bosch slider. If I was cutting 4x12's and large hip and jack rafters I would want the Bosch. If most of the work was 1x3 face frames or small moldings the Ryobi would be fine. In both cases, I may not need either. A table saw and a jig saw or scroll saw might be a better choice. Stanley makes a few different levels of butt chisels. Their top of the line are very good. If you want mortise chisels, they don't make any. An L&N plane is a fine piece of work and hard to compare to steel and iron planes. Are they worth the money in terms of the work they can perform? Personally I would spend the dough on some good stones and stick with my Baileys.

    There are tons of projects you can do with the tools you already have. To enjoy woodworking as a hobby you don't need any machinery at all or the dust that goes with it. Tools don't make the woodworker. I would recommend taking a look at the projects you intend to build and choosing tools that will help accomplish them. You don't have to have the biggest or the best to get the job done. Cost is not always the only indicator of quality and serviceability. I think buying industrial quality tools does pay off in terms of longevity and accuracy. Most will also hold their value well. I remember a couple of tools I bought due to money constraints many years ago. One was a $29.95 drill I bought instead of the $79 Milwaukee. For my savings I got a short cord, flimsy reverse switch and a chuck that jammed. Instead of a lifetime tool, it only lasted a couple of years. Tools should be capable of performing the job at hand without forcing them. If you need a 14" with riser, then you will be wasting money on a bench top because it won't be able to do the job but a Stanley block plane is capable of doing the same job as an L&N, it just won't look as good to some eyes.

14. 
    Misterp | Jul 14, 2004 02:29pm | #17

    Some good experienced advice. My first table saw was a garage sale Craftsman circular saw bolted to the underside of a wooden table I made. Use what you can afford safely and when the money comes upgrade, you'll appreciate and deserve it.

    good luck Bill

15. 
    HONewbie | Jul 14, 2004 06:28pm | #18

    I may get stoned for this, but I say buy what you can afford now even if that is a "bottom-of-the-line" tool.  I say that just based on my experience.

    When I wanted to start woodworking, I bought a cheap Skil jig saw new, a cheap Delta portable table saw new, a cheap circular saw new, and an ancient Craftsman router with more runout than I care to think about from a garage sale.  With those tools I built jewelry boxes for all of my wife's bridesmaids, cradles for two neices, a corner cupboard for our house...

    Could I have bought handtools to build all of those projects?  Sure.  Would good hand tools have been cheaper to acquire than my cheap power tools?  I doubt it.  Would I be a better person if I had started off with nothing but hand tools?  Maybe.  But with the route I took, I was able to start building something right away.  And although I do enjoy the process itself, I really enjoy the satisfaction of having built something.  How many hours in the shop would it have taken me to learn to rehabilitate flea market planes, sharpen chisels and irons, set and sharpen handsaws, the techniques of using hand tools....before I could ever produce even a simple box?

    I don't have a jointer or a jointer plane.  If I need to edge-glue boards, I order my lumber straight-lined on one edge.  Need thinner lumber for a project?  I order it from my supplier abrasive planed to thickness.  Sure it costs a little more but I'm a hobbiest.  At the volume of lumber I consume, it would take me a good long time before the extra cost added up to enough to buy even a good plane, which I would then have to spend hours and hours training myself to use.

    This is way longer than I meant for it to be, but it comes down to want you want out of this hobby.  I will eventually buy better power tools and start learning how to use hand tools, but for now, with the limited amount of time I have to devote to the hobby, I just want to make stuff.

16. 
    micanopy | Jul 14, 2004 08:30pm | #19

    Been there...done that....raised 5 kids.....and scrounged. Don"t give up your passion. I scrounged for years and here are a few tips.

    1.Try to get some outside work as a carpenter and write in the cost of a new tool on each job. IE: I built a set of kitchen cabinets for my neighbor using only a skill saw & belt sander. But I saved enough money out to put away in savings and buy a Powermatic saw in an Auction. That saw only cost me $175.

    2. I always attend Auctions and put bids in on equipment & sometimes get lucky.

    3. I go to businesses in the trade & ask if they have any old equipment that they're getting rid of or don't use. Check it over carefully, but most times I find it"s servicable with a few minor parts.

    4. watch the newspaper ads for used equipment. You"ll find that most home owner equipment is only barely used and don't be afraid to make a lowball offer and check up a week later. Also hang on to the ads and call several weeks later, it's amazing what doesn't sell.

    Hope this will help...Remember...Keep that seed money sacred and add to it as you can.

17. 
    Mackwood | Jul 16, 2004 04:32am | #20

    Dave,

    Tons of good advice and I'm sure I will repeat someone.

    IMHO, only rich folks can afford to buy very cheap tools!  They need replacing which poor folks can't afford.  Ben Franklin said "quality is the only true economy" and I believe it.

    Don't let your tools dictate what you build.  Do the best you can with what you have, develope your skills, your eye and your ingenuity.  Those will always be your best tools!

    As another advised, don't buy new.  Look at a hundred used TS's (well quite a few any way) before you buy that $300, forty year old Unisaw that only needs your TLC and a few bucks in parts.  Learn what's out there and become an astute judge of condition. 

    Try to use or try out the some top-of-the-line hand tools so you know what the "ideal" is and have something to shoot for as you learn to tune your flea market or e-bay acquisitions.

    Regarding handtools; first and foremost, learn to sharpen (if you are weak in this area)!  The difference between a dull tool and a keen one is a truly zen experience!

    Go for it!  Buy the best you can afford but don't wait for a tool to do a project.  Enjoy and be safe!

    Regards,

    Mack

    "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"

1. 
   HeavyD | Jul 16, 2004 05:10am | #22

   To all of you,

   Thanks very much for the sound advice.  I now know more than ever that I am not alone in my endeavor.  It is good to hear that some of you have been or still are dealing with these issues.  It has made me think more about how I want to WW. It is true I would love a PM66, but I think I would rather spend the money on hand tools.  I need to emerse myself in the learning curve for awhile and the money I spend on a starret rule is not going to be wasted, ever. I need to get some good waterstones and go beyond the sandpaper phase.  I learned what sharp is, now it is time to refine it. Clamps and more clamps!!! I think the bigger machines will happen later.  The only piece I see happening soon is a bandsaw, but I will shop for awhile. I'm building a bench, if anyone has seen that thread on 6x6 legs, it's mine. That is the first project, then I will branch out. It has also been good to see that almost everyone agrees that quality is important.  I look at my handy stanley tape and then look at a nice rule and it is no wonder that past projects were "SLIGHTLY OFF". I know that serious money needs to be spent on the little things, the rules and marking guages, stones, chisels, etc.  I appreciate all of your respones and the time you spent responding.  It is wonderful to find people who are all in the same hobby who are respectful and there to help. (sniff-sniff)  

   dave 

18. 
    twoodward15 | Jul 16, 2004 04:48am | #21

    where do you live Dave?  I am constantly upgrading and getting rid of old stuff!!  I'll be getting rid of a crapsman 113 tablesaw (emerson made and black) soon.

19. 
    MichaelPB | Jul 16, 2004 10:02pm | #23

    Dave,

    Lots of good advice but mine is worth twice what you paid for theirs.

    Two questions that are crucial are what sort of work are you interested in doing and what sort of money DO you have?

    Used craftsman table saws can be had in the paper for $150 almost any week you look.  Their biggest drawback is the fences are crap but if you take your time, you can align them for each cut and do good work.  If you get a good used saw an easy upgrade is a quality fence and when you sell it, to get a "better" saw that fence will hold a good chunk of its value.

    Bandsaws do not come up used as often and cheap bandsaws (benchtop and harbor freight ) are more frustration than they are worth. 

    Used routers can be had for $25-$35 anytime you want one and with a small set of crappy import bits, you can do a lot of work.

    The advice about buying good handtools because they can't be resold is a new one but I agree wholeheartedly.

    Try and find a woodworking club around you.  Ours in Sacramento has a tool sale twice a year and wood lathes are about $50 often with a set of chisels and the tools everyone is selling because they "upgraded" are often amazingly cheap.

    Someone mentioned finding part time work and using that to pay for tools and that is an excellent idea.  I help out a friend who builds garden stuff and potting benches out of recycled redwood fencing.  Things like that can build a clientelle and pay for tools.

    Keep at it.