Replies

1. 
   BG | Aug 16, 2004 04:39pm | #1

   Firewood,

   Ian Kirby's book ...and read it all. Philip Lowe's video clip on here. Christian Becksvoort's Dovetail Tricks, July Issue of FW. Buy the LN, Adria or a at about 1/3 the price a good used Disston.....also, two pieces of 4/4 Mahogany about 18"long by 6ish.  After each attempt, doucument on the wood what you did wrong.  The Dozuki will work well after you know what your doing...the LN, Adria, Disston give you good feedback to help you progress....IMHO
2. 
   mgumaer | Aug 16, 2004 05:34pm | #2

   Firewood,

   The convential wisdom, I think, is that japanese saws are easier to learn with if you are not already used to cutting on the push stroke. Because japenese saws cut on the pull stroke, they don't need to be as rigid as western saws and therefore can be thinner. Thinner generally means a quicker, easier cut with equally good saws (western v. japanese). A thinner kerf means less wood to remove, means less work the saw needs to do.

   That having been said, from my limited experience, a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw gives you a tremendous amount of feedback. It helps you learn how to use it properly.

   While you may be able to get a great saw for far less money than the Lie-Nielsen or Adria, if you go with a western saw, you have to make sure you get one that is properly tuned. If you don't, you may find you are having great trouble and you are not sure if the saw is the problem, if you're the problem, or some combination of the two. I started out with a $10 big box special 'Jack Saw' which turned me off on hand cut dovetails for a couple of years. I went straight from that to the Lie-Nielsen so, I'm afraid I can't give you much advice on saws in between. I would caution you about used saws unless you buy them from a very reputable source and are confident they are properly tuned/sharpened. In my opinion saw sharpening is a skill best learned after you know how a properly sharpened saw should cut.

   Matt

3. 
   Alan | Aug 17, 2004 12:17am | #3

   Firewood,

   What kind of hand saw do you normally use?  If your experience is anything like mine you will prefer a dovetail saw that's like the ones you otherwise use.

   I've tried both Japanese and Western style saws for dovetails.  The Japanese saw cut very well, tracked straight, and left a very narrow kerf.  Nevertheless, I now use a Western style saw.  This is for no good technical reason, but just because that's the kind of saw I learned with and have always used.

   I find dovetails are difficult enough without having to learn to use a substantially different kind of saw.

   Alan

1. 
   Patto | Aug 17, 2004 02:14am | #4

   I have just replaced an $8 german gents saw with a PAX dovetail saw at $130 (Aust). This is a Sheffield saw and an absolute gem. I think that I prefer the Gents style because you are closer to the cutting edge there is less angular translation of small errors/ movements at the handle. That said, the trick was a 3-finger grip and the result was immediate improvement.

2. 
   tcbaldmtn | Aug 17, 2004 03:01pm | #6

   Actually I really haven't used any hand saws in a number of years.  I'll be starting from scratch.  The Japanese saw is cheaper, but I've never done anything cheap in my life, ask my wife.

   I've always liked the looks and feel of the Lie-Nielsen.

1. 
   SoCalDon | Aug 17, 2004 05:47pm | #7

   I personally use a Dozuki for hand cutting dovetails:

   http://www.bridgecitytools.com

   I use the JS-1 Dozuki.

    but if you want a western style saw check the Spehar Toolworks version before deciding on an Adria or LN:

   http://www.spehar-toolworks.com/dovetailsaws.html#

   Vlad, the owner of Spehar Toolworks is a regular poster on the Old Tools Forum and makes great tools. From what I've read on the forums, the STW, Adria or LN are all great choices in Western saws.

   Edited 8/17/2004 10:49 am ET by SoCalDon

1. 
   BarryR | Aug 18, 2004 08:16pm | #8

   I'll be a maverick & suggest that the saw you use isn't that important.  If you're willing to take a little extra time, you can cut wide of the line & then pare to the line with a sharp chisel.  Your saw only needs to be good enough to not wander so far that it goes onto the wrong side of the line.

2. 
   Alan | Aug 19, 2004 12:09am | #9

   Firewood,

   I like the look and feel of the Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw too--so I bought one.  It is a wonderful tool.  I don't regret even one of the mountain of pennies I spent for it.  It has no bad traits (except now I can no longer blame my tools).

   If you haven't yet acquired sawing muscle memory, the possibilities for your choice will be much wider than mine.  Every time I tried a Japanese saw it just didn't feel right.  I doubt that will happen to you; so you can choose whatever saw that appeals to you.

   Alan

4. 
   Mr_JJ | Aug 17, 2004 06:25am | #5

   I use a dozuki, never have used a western style saw. The important thing with the dozuki is to get it set right, becuse once you get on your line, you stay on it. The saw has little set, so it is hard to correct if you get off line. hat being said, a good quality japanese saw is cheaper than a good quality western saw. Also, the pull stroke seems more natural to me. Find what is comfortable for you, then practice, practice, practice. And make sure you have a good set of Chisels (hirsch, two cherries, etc...) I used marples for a while, but for chopping dovetails on a regular basis, you need the good chisels. Good tools don't make a craftsman, but the sure make it a lot easier to be one.

5. 
   Michmesquite | Aug 19, 2004 12:59am | #10

   Firewood

   I have two Lie-Nielsen back saws and they are great - but - for small thin dovetails nothing, and I mean nothing, comes as close to perfect as a Zona Razor Saw (35-520) for about $5.00.

   http://www.zonatool.com

   _________________________________

   Michael in San Jose

   "In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell 

6. 
   OrchidGuy | Aug 19, 2004 02:47am | #11

   Hi Firewood,

    If your interested in japanese woodworking tools, try The Japan Woodworker.

   Click here for their website:http://www.japanwoodworker.com

   Those daring young men in their flying machines!

7. 
   epo | Aug 19, 2004 08:53am | #12

   Hi Firewood,

   I recently stated to learn to cut dovetails with hand tools. After some practice,  I would not hesitate to do through dovetails any more. I had my help from Ian Kirby's book on the subject, videos from Tage and also Rob Cosman on cutting dovetails. I have adopted Rob Cosman's method as it is easy to learn and use.

    As for the saw to use. I was intially taken by the Japanese saws because it was sharp and cuts easily with a fine kelf. However, after I learnt to reshape and sharpen Western saw to rip cut from the Video by Tom Law on sharpening saw, I've now  cut dovetails with Western saws. I agreed with others, a good dovetail saw is essential. I've read so much about the L-N Independence dovetail saw though I don't have one, I imagine it would be a good choice. Rob Cosman use this saw in his video.  

   However before I heard about the L-N saw,  I bought a new E. Garlick ( Axminster Victor)20 PPI, 8" rip cut dovetail saw by mail order from Aminister Power Tool Centre (UK)  for about GBP 36.00. This saw cuts straight and clean. Only improvements I made to it was to 1. reduce the saw set a little by running through a flat diamond plate and 2. reshaping the handle here and there for a smoother grip. 

   I think a rip cut is the way to go for cutting dovetails. If you are like me, not accessible to experience woodworker or teachers, consider starting with a new dovetail saw which you can use straight from the box.  If I have to start again and with the cash, think I'll  go for the L-N Independence.

   Epo

1. 
   bakesale1 | Aug 20, 2004 01:06am | #14

   So Epo:

   Since you mention Tage's and Ian's methods, which do you use - pins or tails first?  . 

1. 
   epo | Aug 23, 2004 06:27am | #15

   Hi Bake sale,

   I've tried Tage's method.  I prefer to cut the tail first. I can relate with Ian's reasons. However, the process I've adopted to cut the tail first is the method used by Rob Cosman as shown in his first video on cutting dovetail joints by hand.

   Epo

8. 
   Napie | Aug 19, 2004 09:11pm | #13

   I use a homemade bow saw and follow the process that Tage Frid uses in his classic book on joinery, (if you don’t own it, BUY IT!!!).  Now though, you can get bow saw blades with Japanese style teeth, might be a good way to go, but once you use a bow saw, you’ll never go back to a dovetail type saw. And you can make about a dozen bow saws for the price of a high end backsaw.

9. 
   Napie | Aug 23, 2004 08:42pm | #16

   Dick Fine Tools in Germany, (mail order or web) has a full selection of these blades and a GREAT catalog! 

    

   I cut either the tails or pins first; it’s good to be flexible in these things!