I’m replacing the plastic pickgaurd on a solid-body electric guitar with a bookmatched piece of highly-figured maple. The tonal qualities of the finish obviously don’t matter like they would on an acoustic, so I am trying to decide on one that is durable enough for an occasional stray pick, but will pop the figure out nicely.
I have some defthane poly, which is durable, but I think it tends to yellow after a while.
Anyone with suggestions?
Thanks, Max
Edited 3/11/2007 9:20 pm by maderamax
Replies
I have no personal knowledge about this since I don't play. But I've read that the finish still plays a potentially huge role even with electric guitars.
Check out this site: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/index.htm On the side bar you'll see a link to "The effect of Lacquer." Read that before you decide what finish to use. Their mantra is: natural, natural, natural.
I work with a guy who moonlights as the lead guitarist for a rock band and I turned him onto that website. After reading it he has decided to refinish a Gibson that he's had for several years but doesn't use because he just doesn't like the sound it produces. He's planning on using nitrocellulose lacquer for the refinish. Although I would think that for a pickup guard Shellac would probably work just as well and still meet the "natural" criteria.
Anyway, read that site first.
Thanks for the link. There's all kinds of useful info in there. I'm trying to pick up lutherie as a hobby (starting with a ukelele), so that sight will definentally go in my 'favorites'. In this case, I doubt whether the finish on an 1/8" pickgaurd for a solid body guitar will make much difference, so I'm more concerned with showing off the figure.
Max
Well you can do both pop the figure and use natural resins. You're probably right that the pickup guard won't make much of a difference. As I say, I don't play and wouldn't dream of arguing the point when I have zero knowledge to back it up
I've tried both oils (which is what BLO is: Boiled Linseed Oil) and dye for popping figure on Maple and I honestly think that dye does a vastly better job. There are several approaches. And much depends on how "natural" a look you are going for. Both color selection and color strength will vary with that decision.
One approach which Steve Schoene (I hope I spelled his last name right) advocates is to flood the surface with dye, let it dry and then lightly sand the surface to help kick up the contrast. I've never tried that but it sure sounds like it'd work. My favorite way is to just spray a couple wet coats of dilute dye on.
If you're wanting a really wild contrast than Steve's approach coupled with with a stark contrasting color like black would probably work amazingly well. Because it is such a pale color and so finely grained, Maple can produce some really amazing looks with really wild dye stains that would look ghastly on any other wood. Electric guitars in particular seem to be a very popular thing to use such a treatment on.
If you want to pop the figure while still leaving it looking as if you just finished the raw wood then I like to use a dilute amber color. It'll make it look more like a Western Maple because those are browner than the Eastern Maples.
Then once that dries you could go the oil route and let it dry completely before applying whatever topcoat you wish.
How old is the Gibson and what model is it? If it's older (at this point, 20 years old will get good money), refinishing it will lower the value. If it's definitely collectible, he should leave it alone unless the finish has major problems or there's structural damage. Acoustic and semi-hollow instruments should be finished with lacquer because of the thin film and the little effect this has on the sound. On DIY's Handmade Music, they have had quite a few episodes with Lynn Dudenbostel, who makes acoustic instruments that are apparently highly regarded for build and sound.If they were recorded as well as I think they were for the shows, it's justified. My point is, he showed that he applies a wash coat of shellac first, then a couple of coats of good varnish before wet sanding and polishing. It's a traditional kind of finish that was used before spray equipment was widely available.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
He told me what year it is and I don't recall exactly but I believe it's from the late 80's. I don't know what model it is. It's an arch-top, but it's my understanding that all Gibson's are arch-tops. As I say, I don't play and only have an extremely limited knowledge of the more esoteric aspects of electric guitars.
He traded another guitar for it and appears to fully understand it's present financial value. It appears to me to be in excellent condition. But he owns a number of guitars, both acoustic and electric, and seems much, much more interested in this Gibson's tonal qualities than in it's financial value. The way it is right now he won't even play it. He says he just doesn't like the sound it produces. Just like the guy in that link I posted, he says that playing this Gibson the way it is now gives him a headache.
When I said that he moonlights as a guitarist for a band, the reality is that his day job is the moonlight job. It's a means to an end for him. It pays the bills and frees him up to tour up and down the west coast with his band as they build a fan base. He seems to know what he's doing.
Kevin:
It is hard to imagine a finish that won't scratch under enthusiastic picking. I haven't used picks for years, but certainly did at one time. Even hard plastic pick guards scuff and scratch at some point. It's "all in the game," regardlss of how many tears fall over it.
As to leaving the neck unfinished -- a recipe for a mess for sure. It would discolor and get gummy. Note that even the best of classical guitars are fully finished. One of mine is an older Ramirez and I have played some of the truly great guitars -- all are finished, and with classical guitars, finish really does affect sound.
A frind of mine here in Dallas owns a Ramirez that was Segovia's principal concert guitar for many years. The master wore the finish off the neck. An intermediate owner sent it back to Spain to be refinished. Ramirez of course did a careful --reverent even -- job of refinishing. The guitar lost none of the characteristics that Segivia liked. In fact, Christopher Parkening has borrowed that guitar for concerts and recordings. Given the fact that it is a known guitar with a solid provenance, the value was not driven down but it is a topic of dicsussion and everybody agrees it would have been better left alone. A lesser instrument would have suffered a very significant decline in value.
Not all Gibsons are arch-top and when someone refers to that, it's the kind of guitar like Ted Nugent used in the early days, Steve Howe, George Thorogood, George Benson, Larry Carlton, BB King and that type. Originally, the top was carved like a violin and later, they started to press plywood into that shape. The model would start with L or ES, something like L-5, L-7, ES-175, ES-335 or another of their models. The Les Paul and other solid body guitars are usually referred to as carved top. Is it more than about 2" thick at the edge or more like 3"-4"? The thin ones are usually called 'semi-hollow' because there's a block of wood running down the center of the body and the thick ones are commonly called 'jazz body' guitars, constructed like an acoustic guitar but with the arched top and back.Because of the way the pickguard on the arch-top guitars attaches, I would think about making it either thicker or backing it up with something- fiberglass, another layer of wood that runs counter to the face grain or aluminum. The plastic guards have a tendency to curl and look bad- some of the high end Gibson arch-tops have a wooden guard but I think they reinforce it somehow. Refinishing the guitar won't magically make it sound great or, for that matter, better. The pickups, tone capacitors, construction, setup and the way the guitar interfaces with the amp make far more of a difference. The cables he uses, any effects and how he plays will make a huge difference, too. If he doesn't like the sound, he should cut his losses and find one he does like- they're not all capable of sounding great or even good. It's not just the guitar that makes the sound, either. If you have 100 people play the same guitar, it'll sound a bit different with all of them. The way they hold it, fret the notes, pick attack and where they rest their arm can make a big difference. If he's using a Rock & Roll amp (Marshall, Peavey stack, Mesa Boogie, etc), there's very little chance of it sounding really good. Just as there's no one amp that works for all kinds of music, there's no one guitar that works for all kinds, either. If he's trying to cut down on how much gear he needs to haul around (understandable), one amp won't get the job done.There's as anecdote about Chet Atkins playing a guitar in a music store and someone came up to him and said, "That guitar sounds pretty good". Chet set it on the stand and after a minute or two asked, "How does it sound now?".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
The Chet Atkins story is great.
"How does it sound now?"
In my case, I'm afraid the answer would be, "Better!"
Rich
I don't know what you listen to or for but Chet had a huge influence on the music industry, in the people he produced, signed and the records he played on. What do you listen to and why don't you like Chet's playing?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
LOL!
No, no. You misread me. I meant, if I were playing a guitar, and someone came over and commented about my playing, and if I then put the guitar down, then a minute later asked, "How does it sound now?" The answer would be, "Better!"
Rich
Chet had some pretty good lines ...Supposedly someone once asked him how he would describe the "Nashville sound" he had helped to create.He said "like this," and started jingling the coins in his pocket ... :-)
[Avoid schadenfreude]
Arch top was my description, not his. I haven't seen it for several weeks but what I remember through the existing finish looked like a carved top made of some Mahogany-type wood. Again from memory, I'd say it's 2" thick on a side view.
Not being a player most of this goes over my head pretty quickly. I know that this guy talks about preferred kinds of pick-ups and seems to follow all of the greats in terms of what they played and how they set them up. He certainly strikes me as have a pretty solid grasp of his artform.
He has another guitar that is his preferred guitar for when he plays with the band. I have no idea what it is. He told me but not being a player it might as well have been in Chinese for all that it meant to me. As I said, he owns a number of guitars (and amps). This Gibson he picked up because it seemed like a good trade. But, he doesn't need it.
Anyway, he seems to know what he's doing and he seems dead set on refinishing this Gibson just to test out whether a natural resin finish will improve the sound. In that respect I think he's following Bo Diddley's philosophy and not getting hung up on having to stick with whatever the factory produced.
My interest in all this is really just restricted to the finish. That I understand. The rest doesn't mean a whole lot because I don't play.
Madermax,
Any good polyurethane varnish will do. In my 15 years in the music business, I refinished a good number of guitars. On acoustics, the finish was a critical factor in determining the tonal characteristics, but only if the wood was suitable in the first place. On electrics, the type of wood, ie. density, goes a long way towards determining the sustain characteristics of the instrument, and people swore the wood colored the tone. I never thought so. Pickup configuration and string choice are more important. In your case, you're only talking pick guards here, and your finish only has to be harder than a plastic pick (unless you're using the Min'd Pick-polished stone, a really interesting tool), so pop the grain with blo, let it DRY, and use a good poly on it. Post a picture when you're done.
Steve
There are two secrets to keeping one's wife happy.
1. Let her think she's having her own way.
2. Let her have her own way. President Lyndon Baines Johnson
Fussy,
What is blo, and how does it pop the grain?
Thanks,
Max
BLO is boiled linseed oil. Try it and you'll see. It's inexpensive, easy to apply and really showcases figure. It does it by the difference in absorption rates of the different areas of the wood. Some is softer and more porous than other parts (figure) and thus soak in more oil making it more visible than the background of harder, less porous, less absorptive material. Just let it dry a few days before you try to finish it. Follow directions on the can, and be sure to let application rags dry completely and unfolded before disposal.
By the way, a fool-proof method for removing minor pick scratches is Crest toothpaste and a damp, soft cloth.
SteveThere are two secrets to keeping one's wife happy.
1. Let her think she's having her own way.
2. Let her have her own way. President Lyndon Baines Johnson
BLO is boiled linseed oil. Try it and you'll see. It's inexpensive, easy to apply and really showcases figure. It does it by the difference in absorption rates of the different areas of the wood. Some is softer and more porous than other parts (figure) and thus soak in more oil making it more visible than the background of harder, less porous, less absorptive material.
I know that that is the conventional explanation for how or why oil helps pop figure but I don't believe it's accurate in most, or perhaps any cases. I think it does it more by filling in the open spaces between the wood particals which allows the reflected light to more fully expose the figure in the wood.
The best example I can think of would be curly Maple. When you apply an oil finish to Maple and then look at it, sure enough you see that the contrast between darker areas and lighter areas in the banding are indeed enhanced. But take that same piece of oiled Maple and view it from a different angle and the areas that had previously been darker are now the lighter areas and the formerly lighter areas are now the darker areas. Differing absorbtion rates can't explain that kind of effect.
I've got an "object d'art," as Rich would say, that is made of pretty highly figured Tiger Maple and also has a bit of extremely figured Tiger Walnut on it. I finished it with two coats of Walnut Oil and then topped that with lacquer. On both the Maple and the Walnut I can see the banding effect change depending on where I am in relation to the light source and the piece itself. If different absorbtion rates (i.e., endgrain darkens more than non-endgrain) were the accurate explanation then there should be no optical shift like that. End grain is always darker regardless of how one views it.
Kevin. You are right, and the phenominon you are describing is called "optical bridging."
Thanks, Joe. I didn't realize that there is a formal name for it. That's interesting to know. Of course with my exceptionally porous memory I'll likely not remember. But who knows... one lives in hope. LOL
Interestingly enough, I was first exposed to this optical bridging explanation right here at Knots several years ago. It doesn't seem like very many know about it, though. Maybe this little sidebar will help spread the knowledge a bit.
Make sure to finish all of the surfaces of the guard or it'll curl up like a Frito. Also, let us know how well it holds its shape. Post some photos, too.
The pickguard won't really affect the tone unless it's actually holding the pickups. What morel is the guitar? If it's a Strat, Tele or something where the guard is just overlaid on the top, the tone won't be affected at all. A lot of new guitars are finished with poly now and for the most part, it's non-yellowing, very durable and the "feel" on the neck is good, too. OTOH, there's always someone out there who thinks the neck should be bare but that leaves it open to problems because of the sweat/dirt and other gunge that can get into the pores.
As for hardness, the F=M/A formula will tell us that no matter how hard the finish is, a pick can still scratch the finish. Every pickguard I have seen on guitars that have been played, have scratches. The plastic ones, metal, lacquered, poly'd, epoxied- all of them. The finish will need to dry and harden completely, regardless of what it is.
If I missed this on earlier replies, sorry for the repeat. But what about epoxy for a finish? It's used by a lot of luthiers even on acoustics as a pore filling sealer and I dont recall hearing any negatives against using it for instruments. Obviously you'd have to build up more of a film for pickguard use rather than sealer use but wouldn't that be tougher than poly or lacquer? Someone else also suggested doing a laminate which I think I'd have to go along with.
If you build it he will come.
I think a water based floor finish would be hard and clear; harder than epoxy I think. If I were you however, I would consider using a temporary pickguard like the one in the following link. It will provide protection when you need it, is renewable and doesn't need to impact what I'm sure will be a beautiful finish.
http://www.12fret.com/new/guitar_guard_pg.html
The guitar he's making the guard for is electric, with a carved contoured top. That one in your link is good on classical and flamenco guitars, though, since they rarely come with a pickguard at all and fingernails can beat the tar out of a spruce or cedar top.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Is the guitar in this link the same as what you're making the guard for, other than color?
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?cpd=0OEY&doc_id=99371&g=guitar&base_pid=517125&index=1
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