To skew, or not to skew: that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the shop to slice
The knots and birdseye of outrageous wood grain,
Or to take straight blade against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
Or, put in modern parlance: why not skew it all? When planing with a normal plane I always seem to end up skewing it a little to ease the cut. My favorite Christmas present is my LN #140 skew block plane which does everything from raising panels, to rabets, to end grain on small boards. And soon I’ll have a pair of Blue Spruce skew chisels in my hot little hands. It’s true I’ll need them for the half-blind sockets of a new project, but I can’t imagine not using them for just about every bit of dovetail pairing. Why wouldn’t I?
Which brings me to my question: barring a final high-angle smoothing plane, why wouldn’t you want every blade skewed? Why not make a skewed jointer, or shoulder plane? Why not a skewed adjustable mouth block plane? Why not skew all your paring chisels? When, other than smoothing, is skewing bad?
—Pedro
Edited 1/14/2008 8:05 pm ET by perizoqui
Replies
Pedro,
For one, a plane with a skewed blade requires a wider blade to achieve the same width of cut as a straight blade, thus the blade costs more. Also, as we all know, one can simply skew the entire plane, which in fact comes naturally to some. The purpose of skewing is to effectively lower the angle of the blade. In my view, this is akin to using a low-angle plane. So why not make all planes skewed? I believe that most would regard a skewed plane as a specialty tool and take a standard bench plane first. Tradition. I don't know how much harder it is to manufacture, but as I mentioned before, blades would cost more. Just a few thoughts running through my head...
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"For one, a plane with a skewed blade requires a wider blade to achieve the same width of cut as a straight blade, thus the blade costs more. "
I've read this a couple of times and I'm not sure I follow you. A #140 has a 1 1/2" wide skewed blade, which has the same width of cut as a 1 1/2" standard block blade... 1 1/2".
I think Chris meant that if you take a straight blade and skew it, the shaving width will be narrower. A skewed blade presents the advantage of skewing the plane without the loss in effective shaving width.In essence I think Chris made the opposite point he intended to.
Edited 1/14/2008 10:47 pm ET by perizoqui
I guess what I am saying is that a blade presented squarely covers more than a blade at an angle. Compare the two: - / The horizontal line is much shorter yet covers the same space from left to right. If that still doesn't make sense (and I can't blame you) I can't help explain any better... atleast now.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
The difference is a difference in perspective with respect to the shape and position of the blade:
Chris - The blade is a "normal" plane blade, mounted on a normal frog, but where the frog itself is rotated about a vertical axis.
Woodman - The blade is a skew blade (shaped like a skew chisel), mounted on an angled frog, but with the sides of the blade remaining parallel to the direction of cut.
-Steve
Chris,
I understand what you are saying, but have to respectfully disagree that this makes the blades more expensive. Effectively the same amount of steel and same process to manufacture it.It's orthogonal to the original question at this point, I think you and the other responses did a fine job of covering the value of skewing a blade. For what it's worth, the LN#140 is one of my favorite hand planes. It's really versatile and pleasing to use.
I absolutely love mine as well. Do you have both left and right handed versions?
Pedro -
I have a wide skew chisel (Swiss Made) that I use for trimming all kinds of things, and it works great. When I got my LN Chisel Plane, I started using that (a really cool tool). I emailed Lie-Nielsen suggesting that they make a skew version of this tool, as it would make the ultimate trimming tool. I was told that my idea was intriguing, and told they were coming out with a skew blade for their router plane. After I thought about it...could you imagine how dangerous a skew blade version of the chisel plane would be? Though it would work great, I would not want to be on the wrong end of it, or drop it on my foot!
My guess is that planes do not have skewed blades because they didn't start out with skewed blades. Though harder to sharpen among other things, they clearly work better. However, some things just chug along as they always have. Have you noticed now how all staple guns are the "lever forward" type? Why did it take them 100 years to figure that one out?
Now that I think further on it, would bigger planes (smoothers etc) rock too much with a skewed blade?
A skewed chisel plane would indeed be lethal. The lovely V blade on my router plane is essentially a double-sided skew blade. You could make a plane blade in this configuration too, it would plane like a snowplow. This would get around the issue of rocking too.
Pedro, indeed skew them all the long and the short and the tall. You can skew with bench and block planes in an open field but need the #140 type in a rabbet unless you have some old Stanley ???#289 etc. ??
Rumor has it that LV will be coming out with some new one's. I think that their new plow plane was the first of that type. It is probably a daunting task to engineer a quality skew plane realizing that there is no support at the edges of the cutter at the sole and many old#140 's show up with cracks in the side wall or cheeks. The costs are also a show stopper for many companies to engineer , develop molds and production equipment for a difficult set of specialty planes. LV also has the dollar exchange rate to deal with as well.
I have a Millers Falls equal to the #140 and two (left/ right) woody skewed fillister planes and they can be priceless but a PITA to keep up. I will look for the LV skews. All the best , Paddy
I've been reading many rumors about new LV and LN planes going back over a year, but new releases seem to be pretty far off the rumors. There was lots of talk of a LV version of the LN140, but that never came to pass. That plow is something I'd love to have once my tool-buying moratorium has worn off.On the other hand LN is supposed to be releasing a chamfer plane which I can't for the life of me figure out why one would buy. I haven't had any trouble chamfering with a normal plane.Why is your skewed fillister a pain to keep up?
Best,
---Pedro
Pedro, they are woodies that are older than dirt. well worn, always needing fine adjustment to use and I can sharpen fairly well but the skew is always an adventure.
The old Stanley chamfer plane is in short and costly supply in the used market and I would guess that they didn't sell zillions of them to the frugal old timers. There must be at least a dozen ways to knock off that edge or do a precise flat to bead on a leg using a 45° wood block on the fence of a number of planes from a fillister to a joiner with a clamp on fence. LV makes a neat attachment that replaces the adjustable mouth plate on their block planes
BTW, if you use combination, fillister or molding planes you WILL love the LV plow for its solid twin fence rods, cutter mounting and control. I gave one to Moi for Christmas as I had been a very good boy last year.
All the best, Paddy
I gave a great many gifts to moi as well this Christmas. I found him to be very deserving.How do you like that plow? Can you mill the blades to create profiles like with the old stanley 45 and 55 combination planes?
Pedro, The thought never crossed my mind to modify a plow cutter. I will scope it out in the AM as I was in the shop most of the afternoon with great angst(see power tools- sears 13 " planner knife bolts) but may grab it to fondle it when I go down(it's under the house)to put a few big hardwood logs(overnight chunkers) in the shop stove. It is cold in East Tenn. and expected to go to single digits F° at night on the weekend. Paddy.
Please let me know how that works.
P, not good as the max width cutter is 3/8 and it's not a large plane like a #45 or #55 it's a 2/3rds size that is perfect as a plow and it runs sweet. I pushed a few 1/4" drawer bottom slots in some cherry scrap and they were great, crisp and true. You must realize it has no cam rest or second sled body to help keep you level--only the narrow bottom of the plane edge and the depth shoe (when it gets there at the bottom of the cut), nor the width of a fillister or rabbat plane of 3/4 " to 1 1/4" to keep you level. Get a #45 their a lot of fun.
I played before I started cleaning up chips and saw dust around the bench and noticed that the pile of dust was not sweeping -it was schmeering across the floor- around the water heater!!!!
See ya I am off to Lowes(26 miles) to use my $10 coupon before the snow starts. I needed this like I need boils. The good news -better now then after I left to head north next week. Paddy da plumber.
Pedro,
As you know, being an LN140 user, if the blade in a plane is skewed one often finds situations where the opposite skew would be preferrable. Thus, it may be that one would have to own 2 of every plane-type, were the skew to be built-in to smoothers, jacks, jointers et al. I know I would like that opposite skew LN140 and may have to cough-up the moolah soon.
I suppose you could plane with, say, a smoother skew-plane held sideways-on, to get the oposite skew, but then planes might need to be square, to get the same effects from a sole-length!
A straight bladed plane can be skewed in either direction by the user; or used straight of course. It is inherently more versatile, as well as easier to engineer, build and maintain (as pointed out in other posts).
Why is that LN140 skewed then? Because it usually acts in line with the workpiece, via rabbet wall or panel edge for example, so the advantage of a skew cut can only be got by skewing the blade. There is no such limitation with a plane meant to work only on a surface, so we users may supply any degree of skew we like.
Lataxe, who often twists things about.
That's an excellent point, and yes I too want the left-handed version. I wish they sold them as a pair at a discount. In that vein, a snow-plow configuration for a plane (like the v-blade on the router), might cause tearout in all woods because of planing in two directions at once. If I had a milling machine it'd be interesting to make a v-shaped plane blade and fit it to a krenov-type wooden plane (because of it's ease of manufacture), just to see how it works.Has this been done before?
Pedro,
You ask: "....it'd be interesting to make a v-shaped plane blade and fit it to a krenov-type wooden plane (because of it's ease of manufacture), just to see how it works. Has this been done before"?
You're asking the wrong lad, as I am a plane novice only a few months ahead of you in sliding down the slope. You need a History Man, such as Mr Williams or similar, to answer that question.
Lataxe, nobut an ignorant apprentice in plane land.
A V-shaped plane?
To do that, you'd have to have an iron shaped like a V-parting gouge.
A royal pain to sharpen to match the plane sole, I'd think, not to mention keeping it fixed in the plane body.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Sharpening would be exactly twice the work of a normal blade. Ideally it would be bevel down and the bevel angle would be exactly the same as the effective cutting angle. The bed of the plane would be cast in a different mold and the bevel would be continuous and in the same plane as the sole of the plane. The adjustable mouth would be shaped like a v. Now the idea is complete, you hire a graduate student to reduce it to practice :)Alright, I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it should work, and heck somebody has to try a different design sooner or later no? Prototyping this in wood is easiest, though the blade manufacture might be a nightmare. Easiest is to mill it out of one block of steel, but that's expensive. If I can't sleep tonight I'll make a drawing and post it.
"but I can't imagine not using them [skew chisels] for just about every bit of dovetail pairing."
Once you try it, you'll understand. ;-)
I rarely use skews for dovetails (or anything else, for that matter) -- only when I need to clean out some persistant tiny bit down in the very back corner of a half-blind. Otherwise, it's far easier and more accurate to use a square blade. Keeps things square & straight all the way to the bottom of the joint. If you think about the geometry, you'd have to skew your skewed chisel to get the angled blade to pare all the way to the bottom, effectively creating a squared chisel from your skewed (but held at an awkward angle), making it pretty darn tough to control the squareness/straightness of the cut.
With planes, the reason I find myself skewing is not generally to ease the cut, but more often to reduce the length of the sole relative to the direction of the cut.
YMMV.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Indeed, everything changes when I do a given task, rather than think about doing. But what's a guy to do but think while he waits for a tool to ship?In any case, I usually clean out my dovetails by pinning the board in the vise and working while I sit on a stool. I find it eases the temptation to use excessive force on recalcitrant bits of wood. Visibility is also nice, and since I'm comfortable I don't mind taking my time a little more. This approach means I can use the skew as a skew right through the space between tails. Of course I'll need to switch between left and right handed types to complete each gap. I should probably keep quiet until I have them and use them in this way, but it seems like a reasonable idea.
Mike,
I think that you'e right to suggest that experience shows a straight chisel blade is easier to manage when cutting square parts with the grain (eg down the walls of a DT or pin). However, my experience so far is that skew chisels are much better than straight when cutting end grain or across the grain.
For example, I make the tails of DTs wth a fine backsaw (to cut the walls) then a coping saw to cut out most of the waste. This leaves the DT "floor" about 1mm or less proud of the marking knife cuts. I cut the boards in pairs, where I can, so two tails are made in one set of operations.
Using a pair of blue spruce skews allows these floors, which are end grain, to be sliced down flat to the knife marks, from one side only and with no breakout on the far edge. I do "cheat" a bit and use an LN140 to put a small ledge across the "inside" walls of the parts, down to the knife line (a la Cosman). This ledge also helps avoid any breakout at the far edge when chiselled across with the skews, as described.
If I use a straight edge chisel, the cut seems harder to make and breakout on the far edge is definitely more likely. Of course, I know I should turn the boards around in the vise and cut only to the centre from both outside edges. But I am a sucker for a speedier process and those skews allow this.
Lataxe
I use this method (the coping saw to trim) as well in hardwood. (I don't usually bother with pine or poplar). But I find it easier to control the cut with a SHARP, square chisel. I cut from each side 1/2 way to the middle, so any tear out is just a small strip just in the center of the "floor". (I like the term, BTW.) This small tear-out is no big deal, since it isn't seen and, because it's end grain, it doesn't weaken the joint noticably.
I'm also a bit wierd in that I like to use short (3" or so) butt chisels to do DTs. For me, the short chisels are way faster and easier since there's less moving around while working the joint. It also makes it easier to place the chisel exactly without holding it like a pencil, which I have to do with a longer tool.
But that's what I like about this stuff -- we're BOTH right! Whatever floats yer boat.
If you want to see "speedy", watch Frank Klaus' video on dovetails some time. The guy is a machine.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I've just gotta say that this sounds like kind of a skewball idea to me (:-).
Okay, I will say that in addition to changing the effective presentation angle of the blade to the wood surface skewing also allows the blade edge to slide along the fibers creating a partial slicing action as you'd naturally use with a slicing knife to cut meat or bread. This type of cutting action will more easily sever the fibers but also wears the blade edge more swiftly and makes it slightly more difficult to keep the plane moving in a straight line.
Overall I prefer a straight plane and so do most craftsmen, that is the reason the straight planes are dominant in the marketplace. I am thus able to choose my own skew angles by plane presentation as I work.
The only place that I would seriously consider the expense of matched skew plane pairs is for dado paring... where the skew arrangement has some definite advantages.
It matters not your view of this.
Just turn your hand that way or this.
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