Yeah, another table saw question! Are there any real advantages to buying a hybrid? I dont have 220 so am left with either contractor (Powermatic 64A/50″ accu-fence) or hybrid of some type. Griz, Delta, Craftsman, General. Any that I missed not counting that dewalt or jet crap!) Can you get bigger rails on hybrids? What do you all think?
Say I wanted to add a Jessada Mast – r – slider thingy oneday, could I do that? How about upgrade splitters? Do same upgrades of cabinet saws apply here?
Replies
In my experience the answer is yes. I think it's much clearer when you try to list advantages of a contractor saw design over a hybrid design...the list is short to non-existent. Hybrids have some obvious advantages and many subtle advantages that would be less obvious to me had I not owned both. Hybrids, though as rugged as commercial cabinet saws, offer many of the same function advantages as a cabinet saw, and share the same electrical requirements and general price range as a contractor saw...they start at ~ $400 on sale, and many of the upper models can be found on sale in the $800 range.
I upgraded from a tricked out GI 50-185 that is extremely similar to the PM64a, to a 22124, and have come to appreciate the improvements more and more over time. While both the GI & PM are excellent contractor saws, they both suffer from the same design issues. Many of the short comings start with the motor hanging out the back....while not a huge obstacle, there is typically no longer good reason to incur the downsides associated with doing that, which are the extra space, longer drive belt, DC issues, and the disadvantages each of those aspects present. Most of the hybrids now have full enclosures which offer more toe space, plus enjoy the DC advantages of a cabinet saw. They also have heavier underpinnings...the connecting rods are ~ 1/8" larger diameter, or feature a cast blade shroud. The Craftsman hybrids actually have cabinet mounted trunnions which offer very easy alignment. All have internally mounted motors and most have a more advanced belt system...the combination of short belts with more efficient drive systems make for more efficient power transfer and lower vibration...my 22124 seems to have more power than my GI even though I suspect the motors are comparable. The hybrids outweigh most contractor saws (mine is ~425#, or 41% heavier)...the added mass and full enclosure give better stability than a contractor saw that's easily noticeable....I never even thought my GI wasn't stable until I started using the 22124...stability wise, it feels like a cabinet saw.
The hybrid appears poised to replace contractor saws for home hobby shops. I suspect we'll be seeing less and less designs with an external motor and open stand in the future. The advantages aren't necessarily sufficient to justify the upgrade cost and effort to go from a top contractor saw to a hybrid, but if you're starting with a clean slate, or have a more humble contractor saw, there's just no advantages I know of by not getting a hybrid if the price and features are close. My upgrade had an $80 premium that was well worth it to me. A 3hp cabinet saw has even more advantages, but requires 220v, and is often more than what most hobbyists need.
FWIW, Jet has an updated model to replace their earlier SuperSaw.
http://www.epinions.com/content_184778395268
Most sliders should fit, many splitters will, but that'll be on an individual model basis...no one size fits all answer.
Edited 6/28/2006 8:51 am ET by Scotty_
Thanks for great response and link. All has confirmed my general suspicions. Cant hardly believe that crapsman has stepped up the game!
You're welcome, and yeah, I was pretty skeptical at first too. Other's persistant praise, great reviews, and finally trying out a friend's 22124 convinced me to open my mind...no regrets. They're not the only game in town, and they still plaster their name on alot of junk, but I have no regrets with this purchase, and neither do the huge majority of other owners....most criticisms I read are from non-owners and non-users.There are pros and cons to each of the other hybrid designs, but most appear to be a step in the right direction IMHO.
Edited 6/28/2006 10:20 am ET by Scotty_
In addition to Scotty's comments:
I've assembled several of each kind and find that it takes me about 45 minutes, working alone, to assemble most hybrids; most of the assembly is completed at the factory.
On the other hand, it typically takes me at least twice as long to assemble most contractor's saws which have more parts than the "Erector Set" I used to play with as a kid.
Neither kind typically has a riving knife - just cumbersome and awkward blade guards with integral splitters that have to be removed in their entirety when making partial cuts like dadoes; can you use the blade guard with the splitter removed, or use the splitter with the blade guard removed?
The enclosed bases found on hybrid saws seem to enhance dust/chip collection and noise attenuation relative to contractor's saws - look at the guts, though, as some are more effective than others.
Before you buy any of them, go through the motions of performing basic tasks like belt & blade changes, fine-tuning the alignment of the blade to the miter gauge slots, gaining access to the interior with a dust collection hose in place, etc.: you may find that some models hinder these kinds of basic operations, while others betray more thoughtful planning by the designers.
If your tools have to be mobile, look at the tool with the mobile base and dust collection hose in place; roll the saw to see how easily it can be repositioned and moved over a threshold or irregular floor, and see how stable and vibration-free the saw is with the casters locked. How close can you place them to the wall with the DC hose installed?
Please let us know which one you buy - and which of the deciding factors are most important to you.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I own the GI 50-220. It's a great saw. The cabinet is great for dust collection, of course the added weight is never a bad thing. As well the motor is internal so if needs be I can store the saw closer to the wall. I went for the hybrid for the sam reason, no 220V power. I have since added it to my shop and switch the saw to 220V as well.
I know for the GI you can get the longer rails. I didn't because of limited space.
One thing to relize is that the saws are fairly new. I wanted to upgrade my splitter and at the time nothing was available the would mount to the saw. I hope that since General bought Excalibure that this will change.
I would assume the Mast-r-slide would fit, since it replaces the extension wing.
maybe a a more general electric question (no pun), but does rewiring for 220 do anything?
hdgis1 wrote
--
maybe a a more general electric question (no pun), but does rewiring for 220 do anything?
Yes absolutly. The formula for power is P=Volts*Amps - the power you are generating is the same, so the current (amps) are reduced by 50% when switching from 110 to 220 -- This has several side-effects
1) Less Heat in the motor and Cords (motor lasts longer)2) You loose less power to the extension cord3) Your lights don't dim when you start the saw because the inrush is much less4) Saw starts quicker, becasue of the inrush (that caused the lights to dim).
I use 220 for all my "stationary" tools except the drill press. Once you switch you'll never want to run a heavy tool on 110 again.
Les
maybe a a more general electric question (no pun), but does rewiring for 220 do anything?
As LeslieT pointed out there are lots of benefits. But the main reason I switched was that I was installing 220V for my jointer, and figured I might as well change over the rest of the machines. My Table saw, jointer, Dust Collector and Lathe are all on 220V.
From a user perspective my florescent lights don't flicker off and on when I start the saw. I really notice it on the jointer which seems to start up quicker.
I delayed getting 220V installed, but should have done it earlier. Tools like the jointer draw lots of amps at the start, I always felt like I might trip the breaker. I also let it dictate my tool purchases, which in the end I regret. If I would have had 220V power I would have got a more powerful table saw, and a jointer with large capacity.
I almost bought the Dewalt Hybrid a couple years ago, but then Sears "Professional" series offered a 110v 1 3/4hp cabinet saw for just under a grand. It is not a hybrid which has a cabinet around the motor but has a typical contractor saw type trunion mounted to the table. This is a cabinet saw with the trunions mounted on the cabinet. Easy as pie to square up the table to the blade. 1 3/4hp motor is plenty for me to cut cleanly through 10/4 red oak (with a good Forrest blade). Dual cast iron wings. The Biesemeyer commercial 30" fence is very sweet too.
My next saw will be the PM2000. In the mean time I don't regret this decision at all.
Greg Pencheff
Lancaster, PA
Why do you say its not a hybrid saw? From all indications it is...
"Why do you say its not a hybrid saw? From all indications it is..."
Everything about it says hybrid except for the fact that the trunion is mounted to the cabinet; for all practical purposes, I'd say it's definitely a hybrid.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
"From all indications it is?" What does that mean. What about it makes it NOT a cabinet saw. The definitio of a hybrid saw is that the motor is enclosed but the trunion system is that of a contractor saw, i.e. suspended from the table. The definition of a cabinet saw is that the trunion is attached to the cabinet and the table floats on top.
??
Sorry, Greg, but that Craftsman saw is considered a hybrid by common definition. The lines are getting fuzzy between the two classes of saw, now that Craftsman has introduced the base-mounted trunnions into the mix. But with a small motor, relatively light castings I'm guessing, and one belt (guessing again), it falls in the hybrid category. Even Sears calls it a "cabinet-style stand."
None of that changes the fact that it seems to be a darned nice saw, a pleasant surprise for those of us who've had less-than-wonderful experiences with other Craftsman power tools! Enjoy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I call it a hybrid for simplicity. Mostly a matter of semantics I guess, but I think it more resembles other hybrids than an industrial grade cabinet saw. The primary difference between the 22114/22124 and other hybrids are the cabinet mounted trunnions, and that's about it. There's a world of difference in the motor size, drive system, and the underpinnings of a commercial cab saw and the Sears "hybrid". It's proven plenty capable but clearly aimed at the home shop. FG, you're correct about the single belt...it's a single serpentine style vs standard V type.
Edited 6/29/2006 1:00 pm ET by Scotty_
I can truly say I love my DW746 hybred, The trunion system is all one chunk of casting, front to back. Others are two pieces that are seperated and held together by two threaded rods. The motor is not a Baldor as someone suggested(that would be nice) but a Marathon motor made in Wisconson, still good. The tilt stops 45/90 are easily adjusted from the top by means of allen screws located in the miter slots. Factory set up was dead on, 45/90 and blade to miter slot squareness. The blade height adj. wheel nice and low so there's no knuckle banging like on a contractor saw. Suggest good aftermarket miter gauge for any saw on the market, Incra or Jess-um.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
At the risk of starting a "club" I also enjoy my Dewalt 746 with long fence and sliding table.
Here is another happy Dewalt746 owner. The sliding table is nice. Saw runs quietly and smoothly. Has enough power. The miter gauge is a weakness. A replacement one from Woodhaven solved that.
I have a question on a related subject (table saws). I am a novice woodworker looking to purchase my first table saw (I currently own a top grade router and miter saw - currently working with a borrowed table saw). I am establishing a garage based shop. I have a bit of an issue and need some advice. I want to stay within the $500-$600 range... and space is definitely an issue. After doing a lot of research I decided on the bosch 4000-09.... which seems to be the top notch portble saw.... a good woodworking saw for a limited space. However, after doing a lot of reading, I am wondering if I should figure out a way to fit a similar priced contractor saw into my limited space (looking at the ridgid ts365 or a similar delta model). Basically, sounds like the xtra rip space (going from 24-30) could be a major advantage.... also sounds like a more stable saw.
Anyway, the space consideration really is an obstacle though not absolutely impossible to overcome - so my question is this: is there really that much more to gain from a contractor saw in this price range vs. the top notch portable saw. Having not worked on too many projects yet... not sure what the right answer is.
Thanks in advance, Buyer
Buyer - Stepping up from a portable to a stationary saw offers a more substantial machine and a definite upgrade. The contractor saws take up the most space. Why not look into a hybrid from Woodcraft, Sears, or Lowes within your price range? ($400+) They take up less space and have the same benefits as a contractor saw, plus some additional advantages.
Thanks for the advice. Had not really considered a hybrid - did not realize they existed in this price range or were more compact than a contractor saw. Sears and Lowes are about the only two places I have not looked. They just opened our first Lowes in the area and I have ot made it out yet.
I'll check into this weekend! Could be a good solution!
B
If you go to Lowe's, be cautious of any heart-pitter-patter you experience looking at that Hitachi saw. It's less than then would make it out to be.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Good to know!
Actually, I went on-line last night and saw the hitachi and it did look good! Thanks for the heads up. I'm now on the search for a $500-$600 hybrid - not sure if a good one exists...... to think I was considering high end portables 48 hours ago!
The Craftsman 22114 is $650 and often goes on sale at $600 or lower. Their 22104 often drops near $400, and is regularly ~ $540. Woodcraft had the Jet 708100 1 1/2HP WorkShop Tablesaw on sale for $400 for Father's Day...even regular price should be ~ $550. Amazon sometimes offers this model too.Sometimes the Delta 36-715 goes on sale below $600 too.The Grizzly G0478 is $685 plus s/h, so that one stays up there.
Thanks for the info! Already did some research on these options based on your note - but not sure about a few things.
Craftsman - only have 24" rip capacities... will that be a big deal. As I am fairly new, not 100% sure - but thought 30"+ was best. Even though they are not "craftsman professional" - still ok?
Jet - larger rip capacity is to the left not right - does that really matter. Seems to be unique.
Delta - looks pretty good. I found myself looking at the new Delta contractor saws that just came out (highlghted in their websight - lowes just got them in). They are not hybrids but do have a smaller footprint than other contractor saws I have seen - which helps my space situation... model number I was looking at was 36-980. Says it has a 30" rip capacity to the right and 13" to the left..... kind of suspect... specs on the table don' add up. Otherwise looks solid. Had not seen the hybrid until you mentioned it.... I'm very interested now.
Any recommendations on mobile base for these - its a must for my situation.
Ripping capacity is really not an issue unless you are a serious cabinet maker. The wider rip capacity is only safely used when crosscutting wide sheet stock to length, such as the slabs for cabinets sides. Since the width rarely exceeds 24", this dimension for ripping capacity should be more than adequate to rip a full sheet of material in half. To crosscut wider stock to a length that is great that your fence capacity, the safest way is to use a crosscut sled. For narrow stock , an accurate miter gauge is essential. There are plenty of free sled plans on the internet and they are easy and inexpensive to construct.
Regarding your comment about some concerns regarding suspect fence capacity right and left of the blade, this is a normal way of stating a specification since most fence systems permit travel on both sides of the blade. The left tilt/right tilt denotes the direction the blade will tilt away from the predominate ripping fence position. Left tilt is considered by most to be the safest arrangement since it prevents wood from being trapped between the blade and the fence.
Enjoy.
THe two lower Craftsman models have a more modest fence than the 22124 and a few less features, but the cabinet mounted trunnion system is the same. The rails can easily be move over to the right to create more ripping capacity if needed.I saw that Jet spec....made me wonder if it's a typo. There's all kinds of mobile base options, including homegrown...of course, the new Delta contractor saws come with one.
Thank you.
Starting to like the craftsman models! Who knew. Definitely thought I'd end up with a Delta/Dewalt/Ridgid or General based on my own looking into it - but it seems that my best bang for my buck may be one of these two cratsman models! Did not realize I could accurately shift the fence over to increase rip if I ever needed it.
Thank you very much for all of your advice!
Just got back from a visit to Sears. Again - thank you for the recommendation. No purchases yet but I think I'm going to head in that direction. With the growth of Lowes, Home Depot and other specialty hardwares - its amazing how easy it is for me to forget about Sears. I've done all of my recent shopping-looking at these other places and on-line.
I happen to have a very big Sears nearby and never thought to check it out. I was very impressed with their overall selection! As you stated, their new hybird saws are terrific - and the fact that they have three options really makes it flexible for the customer. I'll probaly go with the mid level - cast iron extensions and solid dust port. The top model looks very nice - but at $1000 just a bit our of reach.
I agree with Scotty about stepping up to a hybrid saw if you have the space. I also work out of my garage and due to my wife's wishes I still need to be able to put 2 cars in at the end of the day. The Craftsman 22124 was the saw for me. It took me 2 years after they came out with it to get one, but it is a great piece of equipment. The main reason I wanted this particular saw was the Biesemeyer fence and the fact that it has a cast iron tabletop.
One thing to remember about some contractor saws is that the arbor may not be long enough to accommodate dado sets to their full width. I have heard about some contractor saws that only accept dado sets up to 1/2".
Hope this helps,
Chebs
Looks like a great saw. Had to re-think my whole strategy! The 22124 (model # or35504 same saw i hope) looks like the best in its range. The 2006 tool guide also ranked it as its #1 midsize saw. Its a little over my budget though (not sure I can sell the misses on this one). I do not see any hybrids in the $500-$600 range (anybody know of any) so I'm having to contemplate some things here!
Can't believe Craftsman is #1.
"I do not see any hybrids in the $500-$600 range...." Seems to me that several folks have put together various discounts and coupons to get the ZIP Code saw down to that price range. You have to follow all the Sears ads and promos. Wouldn't hurt, probably, to either sign up for their mailing list or (shudder) get a Sears credit card.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Ok. So its a matter of re-budgeting now - or finding a contractor saw in my range. Good idea on the credit card - used it though.... I have a Craftsman riding lawnmower. Who knew then!
I have a delta hybrid, circa 1992... I bought it used about 18 months ago.
I have done a few upgrades, Inline-Industries alignment Pals, machined pullies on the arbor and motor and a link belt.
I do run it off 220, it's got a 2hp motor. Quite honestly, it has done everything I've asked it.. no problems at all.
One last word of advice... if your ripping thick stock, use a ripping blade, not a combo blade...
Which model do you have? I didnt realize delta was making hybrids in 1992...
Its the 36-750 , it's hard to find but is in the same family as the 36-755....
If interested, here's a link to the parts/list
http://www.acetoolrepair.com/DeltaHtml/TableSaws/CS4S.htm
hd;
I have to go with Scotty I have a 22124 and am in love with it. Assembly was a breeze and it needed almost no alignment from the start. I mounted mine on a delta mobile base ( I will be redoing that using 1.5" steel tubing though ) and instead of the laminated extension table I used the steel extension from my previous craftsman. The Biessmeyer fence is sweet and really doesn't eat up much more space than the old contractor saw once you figure in the space gained from the motor not hanging out the back of the saw.
As for the guy the portable tablesaw don't do it. For a few more bucks you can get the midlevel craftsman, or even the new Hitachi table saw and get a lot more bang for your money.
Chris
I wouldn't call the Dewalt hybrid crap. I have had mine for about 3 years and absolutely love this saw. It is compact, has an excellent Baldor motor, cuts dados extremely well with my 8" CMT stacked set, is accurate, and has never bogged down on a cut.
I'm glad you posted that, SJ2. I was tempted to say "what?!" but I've never used the DeWalt. But certainly have heard people express lots of satisfaction with them, including one man I met at Lowe's who had built several pieces of furniture for his new house. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
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