Hey All,
I’ve been woodworking (built a coffee table, bookshelf, sewing desk, computer desk) for 2 years and though I’ve been reading a lot in this great forum, this is my first post. I am building an end table for my parents out of walnut and maple. I live in a small apartment and have one room dedicated to my hobby. As such, the noise of power tools has prevented me from using them, however, I believe this is a blessing because I’ve really spent a lot of time working with handtools. I want to taper the legs for the end tables on 2 sides (double taper). I have a 6′ length of 8/4 walnut which I can get 4 legs out of. I originally planned to take it over to a friend’s house and cut the tapers with a table saw, however, I cut the board in half yesterday with a handsaw to get the length of the legs and thought to myself, since I’ve done all the other cuts by hand, how great would it be to finish the project without power tools (except for a drill).
My question is, should I save myself the soreness, time and most likely frustration of cutting by hand and use my friend’s table saw? or should I try the cuts by hand (about 24 inches through 8/4 walnut)?
Also, If I go by hand, what do you think the best way of getting the taper would be. I was semi-planning on cutting the angle with a handsaw ans using my smooth plane to make things nice, however, I started to wonder why I couldn’t just use a block plane or spokeshave to do the entire taper.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for the help,
KJ
Replies
KJ
Go hit the antique stores and find yourself a good ripsaw (about 5 teeth per inch) and have at it. Be picky about the saw as there are a lot of them out there so get a good one. Shouldn't cost more than twenty bucks. Or you could pick one up off of ebay. have it sharpened and you will be surprised at how well and how fast it cuts. Then you can clean up the sawn surface with a plane and you are done.
PS. Pick a saw with a comfortable handle not one of the modern " blister raisers" so common for the last thirty five years or so.
Good luck.
Mark
My advice? Go see your friend.
You're a handtool user by circumstance, not by choice, is my guess, so this is not a question of religeon. The advice about a good saw, well-sharpened, is sound.
If you were learning this craft the traditional, in-the-distant-past, way, you'd be cutting tapered legs by hand until you could do them spot-on in the dark with one hand tied behind your back (as my sainted Mother used to say).
Hand-tool competence is a great attribute to have, whether you make your living as a production woodworker, and studio craftsman, or a weekend woodie.
Sharpen-up. Relax. Take a deep breath. And saw!
If you have the time, the muscle, and the inclination, by all means use a handsaw.
I am mystified by all this, but there are many who take great pleasure in doing all their woodworking operations by hand. I realize you are not necessarily doing this by choice, but by doing things the old fashioned way, you will probably learn more about the qualities and characteristics of wood.
KJ,
Great question. A bit of guessing on my part, but I am assuming that this table has traditional aprons, and the the 2 sided tapers are on the inside, to give the impression of splayed legs. If this is correct, then your need for accuracy on the tapers is only modest, but your need for flat, square corner posts is critical for properly fitting aprons. 4 legs equals 8 cuts, with a hand saw. No big deal, esp. with a rip saw, either trad. Western, or bowsaw, or Jap. saw. And, even if you use a TS for the tapers, you will need to clean up the tapers, by a hand plane.
So, to me it turns on whether you will be able to achieve leg tops that are square and flat with a handsaw and plane. If so, then you can probably cut them faster by hand than to go for a visit, but all of this is a matter of personal choice, of course.
Perhaps not by choice, but you are certainly learning WW in a wonderful way, and developing skills that will long serve you.
As I suspect is true with many on this forum, I was great with a TS and router, etc., and only later learned handtools, which, to my eye, produce far finer work of a much greated variety. You are starting out in a more sensible way.
<P>Alan</P>
<P>http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com</P>
A frame saw, say an ECE with a rip blade or with a Japanese toothed blade will do this cut easily and let me put the stress on easily.
I use hand tools exclusively in my woodworking. Obviously, it is more physically demanding than flipping a switch and running stock past a power tool. However, once you learn how to use the tools, and assuming they're kept sharp, it's a lot less physically demanding than you would think.
I process stock from the rough through completion of the project with no electricity. Rip cuts with the bowsaw are much easier than with a regular handsaw. The blades are thinner, they're held tightly in tension, the blades are longer and can be used upright. The proper way to rip with a bowsaw is with the blade straight up as if you were a human powered bandsaw. It's very easy once you've gotten the hang of it.
If you were working in a production environment where your job was to prepare several sets of legs that go with the apron assembly that somebody else is building at the next workbench then obviously you jig up and cut them one after another.
You're building one table at the moment. You only need four legs. I'd rip them wide of the line by a few millimeters (more if you're unsure of yourself), clean up with a plane and go on to the next step. Just make sure you can keep the blade oriented at 90 degrees to the face or you will end up with a taper and a bevel. Gasp, it takes a little skill to work wood with hand tools. You can handle it.
If it's a question about effort/time and not religion, think your effort/time through. If you are going to your friend's house anyway, that's one thing. If you are making a special trip that may disrupt his and your evenings, the hour (give or take) that you may spend resawing will probably be less hassle.
I say this as the friend of a man who would never touch a hand saw, regardless of the contortions that power tools put him through.
Before I made a decent taper jig, I used to taper legs with a handplane. Mark the taper & just plane to the lines. Not that hard to do.
Go ahead and handsaw. Much more Zen anyway. One thing that could help is clamping a straight square piece of scrap to your table leg as a fence, lined up with your cut line. Then keep your saw registered against it as you cut. Doubt this would work well with a frame/bow saw, but anything with a flat blade and no back stiffener would work with this. This will help you stay 90 deg. to the face.
Apartment living rooms converted to shops are cool, especially with power tools. You just shouldnt burn the midnight oil, and remember to open the window on the outfeed side of the surface planer.
Id have to split the difference and take everyones great advice into account. I hand cut dovetails, but it wasnt till about 25 corners that they started looking acceptable. So I guess I would in Finish Carpentry terms, cut a line strong with your handsaw and then sneak up on it with your plane. If you want a big rip saw thats cool, but a japanese pullsaw is about 23 bucks new and has a double blade fine cross cut on one side and rip on the other. If you havent ever used one its pretty neat, and flush cuts well too because you can bend the blade over. If you saw rather than plane from the start you will have some scrap to test your finishes on rather than shavings to start the stove or bed your guinea pig. Depends on what you need I guess.
Thanks for the input everyone. I knew this wasn't a question of the right way or wrong way, I just wanted to get the opinions of the members of this board. I'm lucky that I'm not in a rush so working primarily by hand is not a problem. However, I was most worried about keeping the saw at 90 degrees for the entire length of the cut. After practicing on scrap pine over the past year, I think I'm pretty consistent ... at not keeping the blade at 90 (I'm usually a degree or 2 angled in). I'm pretty confident that I can clean it up with a plane though without having to widdle the leg down to a popsicle stick and if I use some scrap as a guide this will make it easier.
As such, the majority of this discussion has fueled the fire in me to go get a rip saw (still lookinginto the Japanese pullsaw) and tear that board up.
I guess the question that is left is whether you would ever do by hand what could be done with power tools if you had the time, patience and skill?
Gonna go feed my pet Guinea Pig with some roasted carrotts off the wood stove now.
Thanks again,
KJ
A warning - the best Japanese saws are optimized for cutting the soft species found in Japan. You usually have to buy a relatively "cheap" saw that will have hardened teeth suitable for our hardwoods. Be careful when shopping.
I use an ECE rip bowsaw and it goes *comparatively* like a hot knife through butter. No way I'm ripping with any other handsaw. No way. An added benefit is that you don't need as much clearance on either end of the stock for the movement of the saw as it is used straight up and down or only slightly angled in the cut. This is contrasted with the typical western rip saw which is oriented at about 60 degrees and requires clearance at the ends of the stock being cut. My workbench is in a small shop and one end of the bench is about eight inches from the side wall of the shop. I can easily rip to that end with the bowsaw, but this would be impossible with a standard western saw as the blade would hit the wall toward the end of the cut. Long story short - you can rip in tight quarters with no hassles and without unclamping and re-orienting the stock to finish the cut.
You can also buy a crosscut blade, refile it to a rip, and use it for both crosscutting and ripping ala Tage Frid.
Edited 11/24/2004 12:46 pm ET by cstan
Thanks cstan,
I was looking on LeeValley's site and saw that they offer a Lumberwolf Handsaw
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=50286&category=1,42884&ccurrency=1&SID=
Is that the type you would be talking about?
Here's what you need:
http://www.ecemmerich.com/saegen.html
They can be purchased through David Warren at:
email him at [email protected] and he will send you an order form via email.
You can also buy ECE stuff from http://www.adriatools.com (Eddie Sirotich)
http://www.highlandhardware.com also sells a frame saw but the frame is not nearly as nice as the ECE unit, however it is less expensive and they have several different blade styles you can buy for the frame.
There is an afternoon learning curve with a rip bowsaw. It's a saw that doesn't respond well to fighting the tool.
Edited 11/24/2004 12:44 pm ET by cstan
Edited 11/24/2004 12:52 pm ET by cstan
The saw you found on the Lee Valley site is not a frame saw (also called a bow saw).
See the links that I provided.
> However, I was most worried about keeping the saw at 90 degrees for the entire length of the cut. After practicing on scrap pine over the past year, I think I'm pretty consistent ... at not keeping the blade at 90 ... <
Knew there was something I wanted to add - a few minutes spent carefully marking out the cut line is time well spent. Square up the board first and mark a face side and edge with a 90 degree angle, then mark the cut and saw just to the outside. Start slowish, watch where the cut is going, and adjust as you go. You'll be just fine. Cutting square and true freehand is damn hard to do!
If you are entirely dependent on powertools, you will only be as good as your powetools.
Frank
If you are entirely dependent on powertools, you will only be as good as your powetools.
Frank,
I always heard it was a poor workman who blamed his tools. Never could figure if that meant a poor workman wouldn't know enough to have good tools in the first place, or if a good workman didn't need the excuse...
But aren't we all dependent on our tools, however they are powered?
Regards,
Ray
Power tools impose limitations that hand tools do not. This is what Frank meant, I think.
Power tools allow a woodworker to produce pieces faster, certainly not "better."
All tools impose limitations and a good tool won't help someone with bad technique (not picking on anyone, handsawing straight and square isn't the easiest thing to do. There are people out there who don't even know which end of a screwdriver to pound on and I think we all know at least one of them. (pretty scary to watch)If you want or need to use handtools, having good ones makes a huge difference and doing the work by hand means that you aren't dependent on anyone or anything, other than the tools . When someone asks "who made this" and you tell them that you did, it means more than saying that you made it with thousands of dollars worth of powertools. To me, anyway. Marking the line you want, sawing outside the line enough to miss it safely so you can plane it down to the line should work fine. If you want to clamp boards (hardwood) just outside the line on both sides to use as a guide should make it a little easier to plane to this line without bevelling it. If you do it freehand, you'll need a stiff blade to keep it online.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
well said. In the end it is all about developing skill and quality tools help a lot in achieving that end. We don't all have to go out and buy "Bridge City" but a cheap tool is frustrating at best.
Cheap tools can be frustrating if they are expected to be as good as the expensive ones. I have some cheap chisels that are OK as long as they're sharp. They don't stay that way very long, but it's not that hard to get a decent edge on them. Tools that need to stay in a set position to work but are sloppy, will just make ya crazy. Cheap bits and blades(Forstner, brad point, HSS, router, saw, etc) are just a waste of money. I was trying to drill shelf pin holes with cheap brad point bits and while they felt sharp, they collected wood fibers. These wrapped around the shank and embiggened the holes, making it hard to get a good fit, even with a slightly smaller bit. (sorry for the obscure terminology, but it seems appropriate)
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 11/26/2004 9:07 am ET by highfigh
It is axiomatic that any handsawn surface is cleaned up with a handplane, other than closed joinery like dovetails, mortise and tenons, etc.
cstan,
I agree that there are some operations that power tools available to the average home shop cannot perform. Carving comes to mind.
In this discussion, we're talking about ripping a board. Can do it with a laser, I suppose, if you have one powerful enough. Can do it with a table saw. Or a hand-held circular saw. Or a handsaw. Drawknife and a shaving horse. Get a froe and a club, go for it.
Some tools take a certain amount of skill to use successfully. Others take less. A table saw may do a better job of ripping than a handsaw if the operator is inexperienced. If what you are after is a board of a given width, you'll use the most efficient means available. If what you want is the satisfaction of doing it all with hand tools, that's fine too.
When most folks talk about building by hand, they are actually using tools of some kind. Maybe a sculptor working in clay uses only his hands. I find that my fingernails are not hard enough to shape wood. ;)
While there is some sort of romantic (for lack of a better word) allure for many in the exclusive use of hand tools, for others the product is more important than the process used to get there.
As my old man used to say, "There's more'n one way to skin a cat." He always used the same technique on squirrels, though. The one he was familiar with.
Regards,
Ray
The only thing I would add to this discussion is that many of us start out assuming that the machines must be better because they're machines, or because they're expensive, or whatever. Since I started using more hand tools I've been amazed to learn that they are often faster and better than power tools. Last night, for example, I needed to square up a block of wood made of glued-together boards, each eight feet long by 1x4. The block was sort of twisted from the glue-up (bad technique on my part). I could have spent a long time with a power jointer and power planer, and maybe a table saw with a big blade, but instead I did it in about 15 minutes with a L-N low-angle jack plane, sharp as hell. It just sliced the wood right off and I had my square block. There was no noise, dust, or danger, but the point is that it was really, really fast and accurate.
If I were a factory I'd have to use power tools in the assembly line. And to rip 30 1x4 boards there's no doubt the table saw is the way to go. But the one-man shop really can be a different story in terms of what is the best tool for the job at any given time.
Markrodereick,
I get your drift. Often the trick is to know which is the right tool for the job. That old adage about everything looking like a nail if all you have is a hammer...
Cheers,
Ray
Mark pretty well summarized my thoughts on hand tools.
I am not an advocate for hand tools based on an obsession with nostalgia or other romantic, idyllic notions. However, I do enjoy the peace and quiet in my shop.
Hand tools are EXTRAORDINARILY efficient for the craftsman building one piece of furniture at a time. I repeat, EXTRAORDINARILY efficient. The ability to put a mark on a piece of wood and cut or plane to it is the essence of simplicity and efficiency. I am proud of being able to use hand tools relatively well, however I did not venture down that road simply for the sake of being proud.
The title of this thread is To Handsaw or Not?"
I say unequivocally yes and I assume the poster was asking for opinions and specific information which is exactly what I gave.
Hey All,
Once again thanks for the help. I guess I started a pretty major discussion on the board--which is always healthy I think. Anyways, to make a long story longer, I ripped the legs out of the board by hand (way easier than I thought it would be using the proper saw) and am in the process now of getting my tapers just right with my plane (I only own a smoothing and block plane so I am using the smoother to do the job). It took me 35 minutes to setup, saw, setup and saw so I don't think I lost any time by not heading over to my buddy's place and using the table saw. I don't own, nor can I use a table saw in my apartment, but I am definately not against using those tools given the chance. However, if and when I have to do this again, I'm pretty sure I'll do it by hand knowing how easy it was. Plus, I don't have to go to the gym if start doing it all the time. It turns out that the hardest thing is getting the top (end grain) perfectly flat to attach to the table (I'm using my block plane for that on a shooting board, but its taking me the longest time). When I finish the legs, aprons and table, I'll probably post some pics of it.
Thanks again,
KJ
If you use a handsaw miter box to do your crosscuts for cabinetmaking you'll eliminate almost all of your problems with cleaning up end grain. Basically you won't have to do any cleaning up, they ends will be clean, flat, and at the proper angle.
I've tried several of the modern miter boxes and find that they don't work as well as my much older cast iron framed boxes. Stanley and Millers Falls (formerly Langdon brand) boxes are fairly common, of the two, I like the Millers Falls better.
I consider a miter box as critical as hand planes for hand tool cabinetmaking.
John W.
I use either my smoother of a #5 for end grain (really sharp). I recognise that most wil argue for the low angle on the end grain, But I have found that the additional weight of the smoother allows me to take a single pass across the width of the board (no sanding before finishing).
My other approach has been to score the line all around with a knife, put the board in the vice with a sacrificial board at the back right on the line and plane onto the sacrificial board. This appraoch was told to me by a local cabinat maker for use when boards were too wide for the shooting board. In this mode, the block plane allows very good control for delicate adjustments to the edge because it is being used in its 'natural' posture.
cstan,
Good discussion. Have you read a book by David Pye, The Nature and Art of Workmanship? A great exploration of the philosophy behind our discussion here.
Regards,
Ray
I haven't read the book, but I would like to. However, I want to emphasize that using hand tools is not a spiritual experience for me.
I thoroughly enjoy taking the tool to the work and not the converse.
I guess the question that is left is whether you would ever do by hand what could be done with power tools if you had the time, patience and skill?
I canna claim to have hand riped tapers in anything, but.... I haven't used my jointer since buying a L-N #7 around this time last year... similarly, haven't used my thicknesser since buying a scrub plane... Now I'm wondering why I bought the machines in the first place.......
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 11/25/2004 3:08 pm ET by Mike
For your situation, a good, well sharpened, rip saw would probably work quite well. Work carefully and finish up with a good plane.
One thing I didn't see anyone else mention is having a solid workbench to hold the legs steady while you saw/plane them. In my opinion, that's equally important for a good job.
KJ,
Everyone posting makes it sound like ripping through 6 feet of walnut is the equivalent of building the pyramids, it is not. With a good sharp rip saw, no matter the type, you should be able to do the ripping in a matter of minutes. However the process isn't that quiet, your neighbors will probably know you are sawing.
Unless the tapers are extreme, it will be easier to rip the legs square and then hand plane the tapers.
John W.
I wouldn't saw in a taper with a regular western saw, I would handplane as you said. The bowsaw would still be viable, however.
Handsawing would make less noise than running a vacuum or a blender so that shouldn't be a big issue.
I would not subject an apprentice to using a handsaw.
If you enjoy using a handsaw, do so.
I think in my post I downplayed the fact that I’ve done a fair bit of cutting (albeit of the crosscut type and never in boards much thicker than an inch). But like many in this forum have warned and probably assumed, I’ve been using a cheap crosscut saw that has put my arm to good use rather than the other way around. Being relatively new to woodworking (2 years) I am just coming to realize the difference between a good tool and the ten dollar isle special. This is not my profession, yet, and therefore I have the time to try new things, and because no one is paying me, I can be content with and learn from a small mistake. I’ve built more than a few pieces over the past 2 years (half in my apartment – half 2 hours away with my dad) so I’m not completely naïve to what needs to get done. I thought I’d put the question out there of what you all would do in a similar situation although I had probably already made up in mind to do it by hand. I probably would have used the cheap hand saw I have right now though, if not for the wealth of input all of you have given me … so thanks.
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The Apprentice
KJ..
Irrespective of the age or cost of the tool, make sure the saw's good n sharp... A little over 5 months ago I was in a similar situation, needing to cut the checked end off a piece of 1 1/2" elm I was about to plane. Rather than dig out the circular saw, I picked up my real tired hand saw, thinking it's only 18" or so, it shouldn't take too long....That damn saw kept me outa the shop for 5 weeks; doc's orders. Doc didn't want me taking any risks till they were sure I'd recovered from the heart attack induced by using the saw. I tell ya, at 38, that mess is a hellova wake up call...
I'm not fishing for sympathy, just giving a gentle reminder... keep your tools sharp.
;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Find yourself a nice old Disston D8 two-handed rip saw (1874-1921), sharpen it properly, use Formby's to clean the handle, apply two coats of amber 3lb. cut shellac, and rub it out with 0000 steel wool.
Use it and fall in love with it's use.
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