I’ve gotta get a new miter saw for deck work this summer (the little 8.25″ just doesn’t hack it). When browsing the aisle at HD, I find that the only brand that provides dual bevel in their 10″ compound miter saws is Delta. There are other saws I like a bit better, though, with respect to features besides the dual bevel.
So, how likely am I to miss that dual-bevel down the road? I hardly ever use a miter saw right now, but with shop re-organization I’m hoping that will change.
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
FG
I want to strongly steer you towards a sliding compound mitre saw. I've the Makita 1013 and can't fault it. There was a post within the last month or so from KiwiMac also extolling the virtues of the Makita. If it's only for deck work, you may like to look at the 7-1/4 Makita SCMS.
I've only needed to use the dual bevel a couple of times, but every time it was a god's send. I wouldn't be without it
Ian
FG,
I needed to replace my miter saw about a year ago too because my old craftsman just didn't cut straight anymore. The craftsman was not a compound and getting that feature was important. I bought the $99 Delta....and it cuts very well. I've used the compound feature once...on the feet on some tapered legs that were doubled splayed. On the other hand, trying to make that cut on the TS even with the Incra would have required a lot more time in setup. In general, I'm using the miter saw less and less...mainly for long boards with a stop....but it does cut very well.
BG,
If you are looking for a reason to replace your Craftsman, ignore this...
Having a dull blade can cause your miter saw to make uneven cuts. Before you replace your saw (unless it is really worn out), try giving your blade a good cleaning to remove the pitch. If that doesn't work, try a new high quality blade designed for miter saws.
That will cure most problems; but even if you have to replace the saw, now you will have a good blade to put on it.
Regards,
Dan
Cajun dan,
Thanks for the tip about the dull blade and not cutting straight, I did not know that. I did end up replacing the craftsman miter saw after cleaning and re-assembling all the parts and still getting slanted cuts. Somehow the blade, when measured with a square, tilted from left to right in the down position about 2 degrees...I could not find a solution..
Jamie: Ditto on on Ians reply. Go for the sliding miter saw, its something that you will use in the future, also, IMO, don't by a no name brand , buy a brand name Makita, Bosch, Milwaukee, etc..(also buy from a authorized service house if possible) If you ever need service from the other tools you'll never get it.. Being in the business for 20 some odd years ,I see a lot of (see how much money i saved) when I brought a off brand, than I see them at a show a year later and want to know where to get parts or service on their tools, its just not worth it. So, good luck in your miter tool purchase, maybe you should pick up a Diablo blade while your at it, and you wont have to here the "twang" of the stock blade. Good luck
Sorry, guys, a sliding saw is out of the price allowance. I'm narrowly focused in this thread -- curious about whether or not dual bevel should be an over-riding, decisive factor. The saw will definitely be a compound miter saw (cuts both bevels and miters), but need to decide whether to go for the Delta simply because it offers both a right and left bevel. Hammer's comment hit the issue straight on: "I can't think of any instance where I could not make a cut without a dual-bevel."
I would love to get a slider, but it's just not in the cards right now. If I buy the Delta 10" before the end of the month, it's $180. Other 10" CM saws are about $199, and I tend to like the DeWalt. Far as I know, even the smallest slider is going to cost twice that much at least (unless I go to Harbor Freight and get their impossibly cheap one. Uhhhhhh, probably not!)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
a sliding saw is out of the price allowance.
oh come now, what is the mantra ... save for the bigger better toll donýt settle for second best, you'll regret it in the long run ...
On a more serious bent. If you are thinking of moving the saw on a regular basis, be sure to check on how hard it is to lift and carry before you comit
Ian
Come on now, you're not really thinking this thru. Especially for a deck, unless it's a boring rectangle you're going to have a bunch of angles to deal with. Why flip big a** decking boards end for end when you can just slide them along and flip the saw. I have cut the notches in 2 x 12 stair stringers on my Makita LS1212. When you amortize the difference in the saws price over the cost of the material for a deck over say a 20-30 year lifespan of the deck, especially if it's RW, it's NEGLIGABLE. You can't be too thin, or too rich, or have too big of a SCMS. I hardly ever cut compound angles, but I do almost all of my cross-cutting on my LS1212. The accuracy and speed it affords is well worth the expense, especially when you consider that I can leave the TS set up for ripping and don't have to go back and forth with the set-ups and blade changes.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet an new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Well, John, being too rich is certainly not a problem for me. As for deck design, yep this one's pretty boring. Two rectangles (an L-shape) and not wanting to go through a building permit, it'll be a repair-and-replace operation.
Funds are extemely limited and I don't plan on spending more than $199 for a miter saw, especially since it's just not a tool I use that often when doing "regular woodworking." If I had the dough, I'd get a big-#### 12" slider and post a gloat here.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
There are many times when the cut is not a true 90 or 45. If you want to back bevel a cut just a little will the double bevel allow you to slide a whisker off the detent? I reset my slider stop to 90 yesterday and it took me at least 5 trials before it was just right, as JC said, I would hate to go through that every time I changed the bevel back to 90. Do you use a table saw? Does it bevel both ways? Can you still cut whatever you want? With a single bevel you just flip the piece from face up to face down, you don't have to go end for end. Chopping action puts a lot of strain on the blade, they wobble. Blade gullets fill with dust and no where to go until you're through. Chopping a bevel is worse. We all know what tools cost but I feel you are waisting your money on a chop if you do anything larger than 2x6. Have a yard sale, sell some plasma, pick some bottles or stand on a street corner with a cup. I don't think you will regret the extra effort.
My Dewalt has an adjustable stop at 90 degrees. I can reset it in less than 5 seconds ... consistently accurate for years at a stretch! HOO-HA!! You are right that face miters on 2x6 material are the widest cuts it will be properly sized for. Fortunately that handles most deck materials. When I have to miter a wider rim joist, or something similar, I set the bevel on my skillsaw and run it next to a speed square or a standard framing square. It's faster that way anyway because those big boards are hard to position in the chop saw. I hand hold the speed squares and clamp the framing square when I need the extra reach.
Thanks for the additional input, y'all.
Hammer: Yes, I do have a tablesaw (Jet contractor's). That and a crosscut sled (to be built) will suffice in the rare instances I need to work with something bigger than 2x6" Work like this deck stuff is very unusual for me.
jpactrick: "...don't sell your soul for a miter saw.....a really nice set of chisels maybe, but not for an electric saw." Ahhhh, good point. "even a yellow one" -- Hah! Showing a little prejudice, eh? "I could throw it away and not really miss it." That's kinda how I feel about the little miter saw I have now!
Clay: It sounds like the 12" saw is more stable in its settings perhaps? What's your take on that? If I were to spend a tad more and get a 12" saw, I would want it to cut miters for picture frames and shadowboxes with extreme precision.
Clay: With regard to the blades, you might want to look at Freud's thin-kerf blades. The TK407 is a 12" blade with 72 flat teeth, made for miter boxes and tablesaws. The LU74M is a 96-tooth ATB thin-kerf blade. For mirror-smooth crosscut (overkill, probably) I can vouch for the LU85M, another 96-tooth ATB, but with very tiny clearance between the teeth and the blade body.
Jazzdog: "You can achieve marvelous results using simple tools and old-fashioned methods." Yep!
Ben: Well, as it turns out, there's an auction this Sunday, and for my birthday I get to go!!! (I usually work on Sunday's). I'll hold off on any decision until I see what's at this estate. Sounds like there are many, many tools (4 lathes alone). Who knows! Other than that, I rarely see sliders in the classifieds. There is the occasional regular compound miter saw, but my geography makes it pretty expensive to go look at them -- I live on an island and it costs nearly $20 and several hours to go to the mainland and back for a look-see.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
One more thing to keep in mind: You're about to build a DECK for crying out loud. I did mine (used Ipe) using an old ratty circular saw and my old but not ratty jig saw. It's a deck. If you see bad joinery all the time on it, then get another drink and darker sunglasses.
"You're about to build a DECK for crying out loud" Yep, it's true. I'm not overly concerned about finesse and perfection here. I like the idea of the "other drink" -- don't need the darker sunglasses, though. We get so little sun on our deck, I'd be tripping over my own feet with darker sunglasses. :>)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie
what the he!! ditch the mitre saw idea and save your pennies for a decent slider down the track.
If you want some exercise, use a hand saw otherwise go with a circular saw or a jig saw or even your little chain saw ! IMO using "the deck" as the excuse to buy another tool and then limiting yourself to a mitre saw less than $200 is very short term thinking. Be honest here, what would it cost to rent a mitre saw to do the deck?
Ian
PS just a thought. Drop a post over on Breaktime for ProDeck. I'm fairly sure he works out of Seattle and he just might have a saw he is getting ready to retire that he'll on sell to you.
Hi, Ian. Thanks for the tip on "ProDeck."forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Any excuse is good enough for a new tool you really want, but... for building a deck a skilsaw, speed square, straight edge, router and forethought will do the job. Run the ends wild on the decking and cut with a straight edge then use a roundover bit in your router to match the edges of the decking boards. Spindles might be tapered faster with a miter saw, but they are available pre-cut or can be cut on the table saw or as a group in series with the skil.
Clay: It sounds like the 12" saw is more stable in its settings perhaps? What's your take on that? If I were to spend a tad more and get a 12" saw, I would want it to cut miters for picture frames and shadowboxes with extreme precision
I do love my Dewalt. I can't say that all twelve inch saws are created equal. I have an older ten inch Makita that I use for cutting picture frame miters (at the shop ... the Dewalt is the jobsite saw) but I have full confidence that the Dewalt would do that job even better. The Dewalt is a superior saw and I have polled many users, discovering universal praise for this saw. For picture frames the slice and trim cut system that I posted before is essential. I used to run a picture framing business and I made all cuts in that way. Believe me, there were few of my fellow professionals who got superior results, and almost none, who used such inexpensive equipment.
As some others have said, the chopsaws are more accurate cutters than the sliders. This difference is subtle, but noticed by picky craftsmen (and craftswomen too (:-)).
Clay
I was twenty years into my professional woodworking life before I got any kind of compound miter saw. I seldom wished for it. Now I have one, a slider I bought as a framing saw when I built my shop. Still, I seldom use it as a compound saw. I could throw it away and not really miss it. So, I say to get the saw that seems to be best for you now (even a yellow one). Don't worry about optimization. And don't sell your soul for a miter saw.....a really nice set of chisels maybe, but not for an electric saw.
FG: Any chance of you picking up a used compound saw. everyone on this board want you you to buy the RIGHT tool to build your deck. . Maybe a local classified ad, garage sales, or maybe some on this board who wants to sell theirs for $199, just a suggestion.
FG,
I have never replied to one of your posts, so let me first say that I like your attitude to WWing and this forum. My fist reaction was "Dude!! you gotta have dual bevel". However, I have only used it to hang crown that was too big to cut "in position" and for the cut where a gable fascia board meets the hip or flat side on exterior trim. If you have never needed it then don't worry about it. I believe you usually make furniture, not install stairs or hang trim. I do think that you should look for a 12" saw though. The selection of blades is a lot better, and they cut cleaner.
Sliders are not as acurate as non-sliders. I have used every major make out there on various jobs and when cutting 8" oak or maple crown at a compound angle the blade tries to walk to the direction of the cut. My 12" Dewalt with Forrest blade leaves no trace on the end grain.
Happy shopping,
Mike
Please post a gloat any way.
Hiya, Mike, thanks for the post. Your statement "Sliders are not as acurate as non-sliders" really got my attention, because I had a sneaking suspicion (read: woman's intuition, LOL) that that might be the case! Moot point, since I'm not gonna spend that kind of money anyway, but still.....
Dude? Please, "dudette" is the politically correct term! :>) "Usually make furniture." Welllllll.....usually read about making furniture is more like it.
Gloat: I'm hoping to have some kind of major gloat to post tomorrow. I found an auction to go to on my birthday! If it's as good as the last one I went to, I'll have some goodies to bring home, with lumber on the top of the list. Yes!
Speaking of auctions, all you Western Washington folk -- keep your eye out tomorrow night. I'll be posting info on a huge auction taking place June 5 and 6. If my instincts are correct, there will be some good stuff for woodworkers.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Single bevel unit will do at least 99% of your work. The double bevel is a luxury that it sounds as though you shouldn't be splurging for fight now. I do REALLY like the Dewalt 12" unit. It's extra cut depth and width (because of the 12" vs 10" blade) is VERY often useful. The price is also quite a bargain compared with most sliding units and this saw is more compact too (means I can fit it in the truck). I am a fan of the thin rim blades that Dewalt supplies for these saws too (though one with more teeth than the blade that comes with it is a good investment). I find that with this saw I rarely use the compound cut feature at all. It does come in handy on rare occaisions, but the 12" blade allows most compound cuts to be made by tilting the material againat the fence and that system is vastly faster and less prone to error. One little tip ... for the most accurate miters: rough cut about 1/32" long on each end and make a trim cut with the saw kept at high rpms and advanced slowly and steadily through the material. This works for all chop saws (by minimizing blade deflection ... mostly).
Good morning, Here's my two cents, every theater scene shop I've worked in has had a compound sliding mitre saw, or acquired one while I was there. They are wonderful tools. Although some are rather expensive.
Datachanel
Doing things the hard way
I do a wide variety of work, stairs, cabinetry and lots of moulding. I've been around long enough to have bought almost every inovation in miter saws. Currently my Bosch slider is my right hand. I can't think of any instance where I could not make a cut without a dual-bevel. Sliders have far greater capacity than chops. The slide action is also easier on blades. To get any capacity with a chop you need a big blade with the ensuing cost. The Hiachi's, Makita and Bosch sliders are, in my opinion, the best of the lot for fine work. I chose the Bosch after owning the 8 1/2" and two 10" Hitachis. I like the fence, and the ease with which the detents can be over ridden when I need a 45.735 cut. I don't like the blade guard operating mechanism. A rinky-dink bearing mounted on a small screw, doomed to fail. The electronic brake works better than any other I've owned. You may not use a miter saw much now but once you have one you will wonder why you waited so long, even if you just cut up kindling. Every saw has it's quirks and models are changing every season. Make sure you get it down off the shelf and try out everything including blade changes. Most places won't let you plug them in, too bad because you don't get to hear how loud they might be. Sliders are more expensive than most straight chops. A big investment if you only use occasionally. Check out the capacity, a 10" chop may only cut up to 2 1/2" thick by 5 1/2" wide. A 10" slide can cut a 4x4 and a 2x12 tread. Bizrate.com is great for comparing features and pricing. Factory blades are usually junk, lasers are a gimick for people that don't have a pencil. Happy shopping.
Forestgirl..the one big problem I see with the dual compound saws are when you stand them back up for a 90deg cut..they are hardly ever exactly at 90deg..the ball detent in My Hitachi Dual slider and the Makita at the shop just dont hold the saw well enough to tighten the bevel nut to get an accurate 90deg...My single compund Hitachi has the stop nut and is adjustable..set it for 90deg once and its their everytime..thats My biggest pet peeve with the dual compound saws...I always keep a 4in suare in My Pouch just for that reason..just My 2 cents. hope it helps..
JC
forestgirl,
The dual bevel should not be a deal breaker for you. Without it, you will have to think a little more, and sometimes you will have to cut from the opposite side from your normal habits. My next saw will probably have it, but I would not buy a saw that I otherwise did not like just to get the double bevel.
I would steer you towards a 12" saw though. They are a nice compromise of economy, capacity and portability.
Cheers
Kyle
Forestgirl,
I have a 10' DeWalt CMS (non-sliding - single bevel) and it has worked great for years. Despite heaps of crown molding (in addition to everything else I cut with it), I have never, ever needed a dual bevel. I have had to think about my cuts a bit more than I would have with a dual bevel but, I always got them done. My only regret is not getting a slider or a 12" or a sliding 12". But, I still make the VAST majority of my cross cuts & miter cuts on my CMS. Fit it with a good blade and a zero clearance insert and you'll wonder how you got along without it.
RickIf you can read this, thank a teacher...
If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.
FG,
I have the 12" DeWalt sliding dual-compound-miter. I bought the slider as much for its increased crosscut capacity as anything else.
Although I've taken the time to fine-tune the saw to achieve reasonably consistent and accurate results, I still find myself making test cuts to assure the best possible miter joints and, once achieved, leaving the saw settings alone - even if that means flipping the work: Old habits acquired in the old days die hard, but the methods still produce airtight miters.
I'll go ahead and use the detents for rough cuts (decking is a good example), but for the most acurate work, I stick to my old-fashioned methods - which, frankly, makes a compound dual-miter saw an expensive luxury.
You can achieve marvelous results using simple tools and old-fashioned methods.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
i use a 12 inch dewalt nonslider for all trim work, it only compounds one way but that has never been a problem
the larger blades are more expensive but their greater mass gives a smoother cut
Well, I think I've decided what to get. The DeWalt 10" saw at $196 plus the HTC miter saw stand, on Amazon, gets me free shipping and a $50 rebate. Brings the actual cost down to $235 for the outfit. I have long wanted a simple stand to put my miter saw on when using it outside. During the summer, if I use it at all, I generally set it up and just leave it outside. Figure I can probably get about $45 for the used Delta at my upcoming garage sale.
This will do the job for now! Thanks guys. I'll let you know when I'm flush enough to go for that big slider, LOL!! (PS: don't hold your breath, tee hee)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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