Replies

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 22, 2005 03:46am | #1

   Bandy cabriole legs look ungraceful and as if they're about to collapse on themselves, and therefore funny.

   To prevent this fault ensure when laying them out that there is an uninterrupted column of wood about 6-- 10 mm square that runs vertically all the way from the top to the bottom. That means none of the curved lines break into this column of wood. Slainte.

   RJFurniture

1. 
   sloop | Jan 22, 2005 07:29pm | #6

   thanks,  good practical guidance; this is the kind of input I was seeking

2. 
   forestgirl | Jan 22, 2005 11:08am | #2

   The cover article for Issue 42 (Step/Oct 1983) is on designing and making cabriole legs.  Looks like there've been a few other articles over the years also.  Here's the archives link.  The Issue 42 article focuses on using hand tools (except for a band saw), but the design part is, of course, applicable with any technique.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

3. 
   Biscardi | Jan 22, 2005 12:45pm | #3

   If you look in Sach's book, he shows you great legs, less great legs and ones that aren't as nice. It helps you to sort out what looks better and why.

   Frank

4. 
   AlanTurner | Jan 22, 2005 01:43pm | #4

   Chip,

   I agree with Sgian, and have some experience in making them wrong, and then hopefully right later on, in terms of proportion. But, just having the long grain go from floor to corner post is not enough to make them graceful, in my view, although it is a necessary element. If you take a look at a Boston or Connecticut table leg, to my eye they are a bit straight, and lack the grace that you mention. My preference is for the Philadelphia style of leg, which is rather more curvaceous.

   In terms of proportions, there are articles by both Gene Langdon and Lonnie Bird that discuss the sizing between the fullest thickness at the knee, the smallest diameter at the ankle, and the proportionate distance of both from the top and bottom. So, if you lay it out in 2D on full size graph paper, with those several dimensions established, then you can sketch out/fill in the curves so that there are no flats.

   I use 3mm BB for patterns. Lay it out on paper, transfer the pattern, cut it out of the BB just a bit large, and then use a spokeshave to fair the curves. Note that when you go from 2D to 3D, the curves will be more emphasized. I usually laminate up some scrap poplar to 12/4, and test drive the shape. Cut it from your pattern, fair it, and let it sit in the home or shop a few days to see if you like it. Seek a few comments. Then, reshape the mock-up, and recut or reshape the pattern to what you ended up with.

   This takes awhile, but if you are building a fine piece, then the design is as important as the craftsmanship, and is worth this investment, IMHO. Last time I did a fresh pattern, took me 15 hours to arrive at the shape that I was looking for and to recut the pattern to final. Time well spent. After you are to the final pattern, mark it well in terms of the size of stock needed, etc., and save it for reuse on another table/chair, etc. This is why I use 3mm BB instead of cardboard, for the permanence.

   Alan

   http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

1. 
   sloop | Jan 22, 2005 07:31pm | #7

   Great feedback.  I can put this to use today!  Thanks

5. 
   joinerswork | Jan 22, 2005 06:55pm | #5

   chip,

   The thing about cabriole legs, the difference is subtle, between good and not-so-good.  The first legs made by many workers end up looking like caricatures of what the builder is trying for.  I think this happens for a couple reasons.  First is the temptation to use as much of the square as possible.  This yields a leg with arthritic knees and spindly ankles.  The other complication is that a pattern that looks good can produce a leg that is ungainly. The problem comes about because the pattern is drawn square to the face, and the leg is seen from the diagonal.  The curves are exxagerated in the transition from 2 dimensions (pattern) to 3 dimensions (leg).

    Another mistake that is made, is leaving the ankle too thick, out of a fear that it will not be strong enough. Actually, the weakest part of a cabriole leg is near the TOP.  The shortest grain is from the bottom of the apron mortise to the inside surface behind the knee.  That's where they nearly always break, unless the leg has really crossed grain lower down.

   In practical terms, with 3" stock dressed to 2 3/4" square,I think that a knee that projects about 5/8" to 7/8" looks right in most cases.  This leaves about a 2" square above the knee, enough for strong joinery.  At the lower end, I seldom have an ankle less than 1", or over 1 1/4", in diameter.  The transition from square to round between knee and ankle will depend on the prototype you are recreating, or your taste.

   Leaving a higher "instep", the transition from ankle to foot, than you might think you'll want, will give more leeway in shaping this area.  I think that this is the most challenging part of the leg to shape so that it looks pleasing from all sides.  Here is where you will see every shape; from a bent stick that doesn't swell into a foot, to a post sticking up out of a cow-pie.  The diameter of the foot, or its shape if not round, and how far forward it is from the back corner of the square will have a dramatic effect on how graceful the transition will be.

   Look at as many old examples as you can.  Sack's Fine Points of Furniture has been suggested.  Also Nutting's Furniture Treasury is a good resource.  But seeing the real thing in shops or museums, from all sides, will be more helpful.

   Regards,

   Ray

1. 
   sloop | Jan 22, 2005 07:33pm | #8

   Again, good practical guidance...thanks...

6. 
   LeeGrindinger | Jan 23, 2005 07:10pm | #9

   This is a very subjective topic. There is no perfect cabriole curve, like the women this curve is modelled after they come in quite a variety of shapes and curveyness.

   Sgian thinks mine are too curvey, I think his are too straight. The English think the French slaughtered the cabriole with the Rococco style, the French think they improved on the uptight curve of the English.

   I think that many modern day cabrioles are too straight because they are more economical with materials and easier to machine in a production setting, a matter of the manufacturer driving the aesthetics.

   Lee

7. 
   WillGeorge | Jan 23, 2005 11:44pm | #10

   I have to much time...

   proportioning cabriole legs...what looks right.. A womans calf! Gee  Not THAT hard..

   Just sort joking but I look at them that way..

    

1. 
   Biscardi | Jan 24, 2005 12:53am | #11

   Not to hijack the thread, but on a related note . . .

   I made some cabrioles out of 1/4 sawn figured walnut. I was very impressed with it, but someone told me it is bad form to have "bullseyes" on the knees. Do you all agree with this? Is it structurally or esthetically inferior?

   Frank

1. 
   Miami | Jan 24, 2005 01:17am | #12

   Since you ask ...

   I just recently saw a chair with ONE 'bullseye' knee, and I don't remember ever seeing others.  I would have some aesthetic objection, though it's based largely on this one I saw. 

   I don't know whether it sacrifices strength to have the short grain behind the knee aligned 'face to' the knee rather than 'edge to' it, but I'm sure someone here does ... instinctively it seems like it might sacrifice a little strength, not a lot (though in such a high-stress area maybe you need all you can get?)

   Now just to be nosy, didja have a specific reason to do it that way?

   Clay

2. 
   joinerswork | Jan 24, 2005 06:11am | #13

   Frank,

   It seems to me that having the grain facing the same direction on both legs on a given side is aesthetically the way to go.  Using quartersawn stock means that you will have one face of each leg showing edge grain (stripes) and one face showing face grain (bullseyes).  Having one leg show stripes and its mate show bullseyes looks like little care was taken in selecting the stock.  Most often with flatsawn stock, you will have more of a riftsawn grain to deal with, and the bullseyes will show on the diagonal, as the leg is rounded up.  I think this looks attractive, but others may well disagree.  If there is sapwood, orienting the sap to the outside diagonal of the leg will often let you work it out of the leg altogether, or at least put it front and center where you can touch it up more easily. Turning sap to the back hides it at the top of the leg, but then the back side of the lower leg is all sap, which I feel is less attractive.

   Regards,

   Ray

3. 
   LeeGrindinger | Jan 24, 2005 07:36am | #14

   My knees are always the quartered face but I muck em up with shells and stuff anyway.Lee

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 24, 2005 11:15am | #15

   Regarding Franks question, and your response Lee, I look for rift sawn square blanks, i.e., with the end grain going approximately from corner to corner. This means that straight quarter sawn grain patterns are revealed on two opposing corners, and flowery tangential patterns show on the other two.

   I generally orientate the legs with the tangential cut corners facing out from the centre of the piece, but sometimes I put the outside of the tree facing to the centre, and sometimes I place it facing out, which is the opposite of you.

   You and I have had the discussion before on  the curvaceous merits of traditional cabriole legs, and I know we tend to disagree on an elegant form. That's life. Slainte.RJFurniture

1. 
   AlanTurner | Jan 24, 2005 01:20pm | #16

   A good old cabriole leg shows that only rift sawn stock was used, giving a similar look on the adjacent faces. If you want the bullseye, then orient the stock so that the long grain lines go side to side, viewed from the outside (or inside) corner of the knee. But, if you orient the stock the opposite way, with the long grain going from the point of the knee to the center of the table/chair, etc., then you will find that the grain of the wood going down the leg sort of follows the lines of the leg, which is quite attractive. Also note that if the stock available is not perfectly rift sawn, then if you have enough thickness, you can resaw the blank at an angle to create the perfect 45 of rift sawn stock, resquaring from the now angled side. A bit of effort, but worth it to me. I have sometimes had to buy an 18" wide blank to get 4 legs, using 3" rips from the outsides of the plank, and being left with a 6" plain sawn center section. Many sawyers try to cut their 12/4 stock to give the rift cut look as 12/4 stock is so oft used for leg stock.Alan

   http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

2. 
   LeeGrindinger | Jan 24, 2005 05:50pm | #18

   Yup, life it is, Sgian. My cabrioles are all over the place. A dining table height leg will have an entirely different curve than a coffee table leg. I never keep patterns so each piece I do with cabrioles means a new set of curves. I like them all and I'm usually trying to design a leg to fit something other than my perverse imagination, something like other furniture in the room or a style the client likes or just simply trying to stay within the limitations of my materials.Frankly, I don't feel grain direction is very important in woods like walnut and mahogany as long as they are placed consistantly throughout the piece. The grains are more of a subtle feature in these woods easily overpowered by the shape. Oak and ash would be woods in which the grains are so much more pronounced and in these types of wood it would be more important. Even cherry has grain that becomes more of a mood than a real feature several months or years down the road.It seems, too, that most of my cabrioles in the past few years have been in curved aprons, not corners. I did a writing desk with square corners a few years back and just oriented the quartered faces to the front. In curved aprons I do the same, not because I feel it's right or wrong, I just do. Perhaps deep down in the recesses of my mind I prefer the look of carving in quartered faces.Lee

3. 
   Biscardi | Jan 25, 2005 01:07am | #19

   Thanks for everyones comments.I think  I need to maybe experiment with some scraps .

   Franks

8. 
   hammer1 | Jan 24, 2005 04:55pm | #17

   Here's a couple pictures from a display at Winterthur. These haven't been carved or finished, but I like the shape so far.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match