Friends,
Based on all of the reading I have done on Knots, I have found the one true answer to each and every one of the significant woodworking questions, except for one. Thanks to you, I now know the answers to the issues that we have so often discussed:
– BU vs BD.
– Tail first or pins first.
– which is the best router, bandsaw and plate joiner.
– who is the greatest woodworker of all time.
– why bandsaw boxes are the greatest innovation in woodworking in the last century.
– the three instances in which hand planes yield a superior effect to Random Orbit Sanders.
– why there are fewer women than men in woodworking.
– how to sharpen anything that contains some metal.
– whether flat or round toothpicks do better in repairing chairs.
– who devised the Golden Rectangle, and what happened to him.
But there is one last woodworking question that I have not been able to find out the single correct answer to:
When hand cutting dovetails, should the layout lines be drawn to have the pins and tails be “just proud” of the surface of the boards after glue-up, or “just shy” of the surfaces of the boards?
Please don’t respond with any opinions. I just want facts. The single, simple, correct answer will suffice.
Once this question is answered, Knots will exist only to provide a way for woodworkers to get together on-line and have fun. All of the technical issues will have been resolved.
We have made enormous progress!
We should all be proud.
Soon the last question will have been answered.
Thank you.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
yes
You're wrong. The answer is no.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Mel,
It would depend on where and what the dovetails were doing. Drawer? Box? Etc?
-Jerry
Edit to add nonsense: Do the dovetails require parental consent?
Edited 8/10/2009 10:22 pm ET by nazard
>don't respond with any opinions. I just want facts.<
Well the fact is I am always right
: )
and I say make them flush when you make 'em. If it is a drawer side make it tight and plane the side and the pins to fit.
What is all this silliness with pins sticking out or pins buried bellow the surface ?
Nah dude Nah.
Of coarse there is always the box in James Krenov's book Furniture by James Krenov and Students where they use the ends of the pins, faceted, as a design element. There are other examples of this also. That is another subject.
I left the pic kind of large so hopefully the ends of the pins can be seen.
Of coarse we could approach the Mice from The Hitchhiker's Guide to help us run a program to sort this out using the Earth ( which the mice had built and they own it ) as the computer designed by the second greatest computer ever built; Deep Thought. But It would probably take the usual ten million years to run the program.
So I am going to just save everybody a whole lot of bother and say trust me on this one. Besides the mice are such money grubbing publicity monsters that I for one am tired of dealing with them. Always wanting to slice up my brain for the key dna material it contains. Blast the bloody mice . . . I am sure Slarty Bartfast would agree with me. Didn't treat him well either no sir.
PS: Oh well pic didn't come out as large as I hoped so just enlarge it to see the ends of the pins. On Mac press and hold Command key then the " + "key a few times.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 8/10/2009 11:37 pm by roc
Hey, Roc,Slarti sure made nice fjords.Cheers,Seth
Edited 8/11/2009 12:02 am ET by Hamelech
>Slarti's nice fjords.<You know it ! Won an award for those fjords. And what did the mice do ? I ask you ! ? ! They made him scrap 'em.Those mice are cut throat. Bad enough they are projections from another dimension. I am not prejudice against pan galactic beings now but honestly ! They could at least be like normal blokes, kick back now and then. Stop being so intense. Always running around controlling every thing . . .Bloody mice !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
Your response proves two things.
First, you are the only person here in Knotsville who is COMPLETELY SANE. Second, you are correct that the correct way is to cut them FLUSH. Heck, if one can split a fine knife line, why not make it a way of life. Do it right the first time. Don't go around making mistakes on purpose and then correcting them. The journey has ended. But watch out for the mice and the bucks.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
While Roc's answer sounds good, there's a problem.Making joints flush requires an over-sized toilet.
>Making joints flush requires an over-sized toilet<Oh I never make anything so large that the regulation commode can't take care of it. Larger projects eat into my time on Knots.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Define "flush". Is it measured in decimal, milimeters, microns. . .? Do I need a new measuring tool to know when I've hit "flush"? Cheers,Ron
>proves two things.
First, you are the only person here in Knotsville who is COMPLETELY SANE.<Ha, ha, ha, aaahhhh, Ha, ha, ha, haYou made my day. I wasn't expecting that one and laughed for some time.
ME . . . SANE !Ha, ha, ha, aaahhhh, Ha, ha, ha, haHere is and excerpt from Douglas Adams:The regular early morning yell of horror was the sound of Arthur Dent waking up and suddenly remembering where he was.It wasn't just that the cave was cold, it wasn't just that it was damp and smelly. It was the fact that the cave was in the middle of Islington and there wasn't a bus due for two million years.Time is the worst place, so to speak, to get lost in, as Arthur Dent could testify, having been lost in both time and space a good deal. At least being lost in space kept you busy.He was stranded in prehistoric Earth as the result of a complex sequence of events which had involved him being alternately blown up and insulted in more bizarre regions of the Galaxy than he ever dreamt existed, and though his life had now turned very, very, very quiet, he was still feeling jumpy.He hadn't been blown up now for five years.Since he had hardly seen anyone since he and Ford Prefect had parted company four years previously, he hadn't been insulted in all that time either.[ skip forward a couple of chapters ]This morning, two years later than that, was sweet and fragrant as he emerged from the cave he called home until he could think of a better name for it or find a better cave.Though his throat was sore again from his early morning yell of horror, he was suddenly in a terrifically good mood. He wrapped his dilapidated dressing gown tightly around him and beamed at the bright morning.The air was clear and scented, the breeze flitted lightly through the tall grass around his cave, the birds were chirruping at each other, the butterflies were flitting about prettily, and the whole of nature seemed to be conspiring to be as pleasant as it possibly could.It wasn't all the pastoral delights that were making Arthur feel so cheery, though. He had just had a wonderful idea about how to cope with the terrible lonely isolation, the nightmares, the failure of all his attempts at horticulture, and the sheer futurelessness and futility of his life here on prehistoric Earth, which was that he would go mad.He beamed again and took a bite out of a rabbit leg left over from his supper. He chewed happily for a few moments and then decided formally to announce his decision.He stood up straight and looked the world squarely in the fields and hills. To add weight to his words he stuck the rabbit bone in his hair. He spread his arms out wide."I will go mad!" he announced."Good idea," said Ford Prefect, clambering down from the rock on which he had been sitting.Arthur's brain somersaulted. His jaw did press-ups."I went mad for a while," said Ford, "did me no end of good.""You see," said Ford, "— ...""Where have you been?" interrupted Arthur, now that his head had finished working out."Around," said Ford, "around and about." He grinned in what he accurately judged to be an infuriating manner. "I just took my mind off the hook for a bit. I reckoned that if the world wanted me badly enough it would call back. It did."He took out of his now terribly battered and dilapidated satchel his Sub-Etha Sens-O-Matic."At least," he said, "I think it did. This has been playing up a bit." He shook it. "If it was a false alarm I shall go mad," he said, "again."Arthur shook his head and sat down. He looked up."I thought you must be dead ..." he said simply."So did I for a while," said Ford, "and then I decided I was a lemon for a couple of weeks. A kept myself amused all that time jumping in and out of a gin and tonic."Arthur cleared his throat, and then did it again."Where," he said, "did you ...?""Find a gin and tonic?" said Ford brightly. "I found a small lake that thought it was a gin and tonic, and jumped in and out of that. At least, I think it thought it was a gin and tonic.""I may," he added with a grin which would have sent sane men scampering into trees, "have been imagining it."He waited for a reaction from Arthur, but Arthur knew better than that."Carry on," he said levelly."The point is, you see," said Ford, "that there is no point in driving yourself mad trying to stop yourself going mad. You might just as well give in and save your sanity for later.""And this is you sane again, is it?" said Arthur. "I ask merely for information."End of excerptIf you need more of this sort of thing see :http://flag.blackened.net/dinsdale/dna/book3.htmlbetter yet buy the book Life, the Universe, and EverythingIt explains so much. Keeps me " Sane "
he added with a grin which would have sent sane men scampering into trees: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,I never did tell you about that time that I threw myself at the ground and tried to miss. The results were amusing, though hurtful. It involved me, a bicycle, and a descent down a twisty road where I failed to adequately brake.Douglas Adams' indication is that flying is a knack. I have not the knack.Cheers,Seth
>Flying is a knack . . . throw yourself at the ground and miss<The key that the amateur often misses is that one must be properly distracted after the throwing begins thus allowing only slight awareness of the occurrence of the vitally important ascent trajectory.One adequate, I think he judges it highly effective distraction, is the unexpected appearance of an IRS representative during your fall. Thus taking ones mind completely off the fact that you are hurtling toward the ground at over a hundred miles an hour with something more distressing and ominous.>I have not the knack<
It just takes practice [ and adequate distractions of thought ]As I always say:
Well two things I always say actuallyFalling on the bike is fun
it is just the bit about hitting the ground that is less than stellar.AndDown hill bicyclists are people who have not discovered skydiving.I gotta get us out of this rat hole and back to woodworking before they toss me out.Here goes:Just a stones throw from where I sit there is a famous miniature sculptor. He sculpts in clay and casts figures of his originals to sell. His name is Michael Garmanhttp://www.michaelgarman.com/yah I used to see him every day on the street when I worked on this side of town.His figures are very life like and are often of brave members of society such as military, police, fire fighters or down and out people trying to get along.Are there any of you sculpting in wood such figures ?Maybe I will start a new thread or one of you may want to.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I prefer cycling to sky diving, the ground is but a shorter distance away. There was the day I couldn't get my foot unbound from the clipless pedal when at a traffic light, and over softly, and completely, and in slow motion, went I.Mel will have to rescind his previously given philosopher king honorarium to me, since one is not permitted the unkindly distinction of being an abject klutz.++Are there any of you sculpting in wood such figures ?++An excellent next final question. I'm not, but my woodworking buddy is.Crammed in the back corner (away from all the machines that proclaim Powermatic) are two Foredom machines. His current project is a very interesting sculpted carp with a somewhat human face and ornate fan-shaped fins. All in basswood. My buddy's father was an engineer at Intel, his mother an accomplished artist. He got both clutches of talent, it's just not fair.Cheers,Seth
Roc,
My oldest son is a big fan of Douglas Adams. I read the experpt that you included. I don't think it is all that much different from what I hear from Lataxe. :-)
Reality is a crutch. But I will have to read Adams. I am thinking of writing a book, Life, the Universe and Woodworking". Maybe I can get some good ideas from Douglas.
Stay sane. Whenever I need to get grounded, I read one of your messages. Then life becomes clear again. Of course, the little green pills help too.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
roc,
Thanks for the exerpt from D Adams. Brought back old memories. Ever hear the public radio audio version?
Oh, and, thanks for all the fish.
Ray
"Once this question is answered, Knots will exist only to provide a way for woodworkers to get together on-line and have fun. All of the technical issues will have been resolved."
Mel, You are forgetting one little thing, NEWBIES , Have you not figured this out yet ? Let me explain.
1) first off the list above is incomplete unless you don't put a finish on your projects
2) Back to the newbies, We are on an information loop here Mel. Just because you have lined up all your ducks dose not mean that knots members (I will not name names We and you know who you are) will stop answering questions from any that ask in a proper manner. I thank them for that, cus I stink at answering questions : I could not lead the blind.
3) No matter the redundant repetitive nature of the question to a seasoned Knotter like yourself It must be answered in full with opinions, banter if necessary, debate or what ever it takes, then and only then will the creed of the knotters be fulfilled. IF you do not know the creed do some research ( RICK L CAN HELP YOU HE IS AN EXPERT AT RESEARCH) Then tell me so I know as well.
4) Do you think that Bob K and Steve and Derek got those fancy little doo dads by there names because they are good lookin, Nope they gottem cus they have all answered the same batch of questions over 50 million times each, with out flinching, your so out of touch Mel.
5) There is no number five.
6) What happened to the Golden rectangle guy?
7) I like them proud.
Tom.
gofigure,
as a perennial newbie I thank you all. I'm curious. Do your continual attempts to answer the basic questions of this craft lead you into new understanding/insight? Fore, from my reading of history, that plus incremental tweaking is how our advances have come about.
Tom,
I agree with you on the redundantly superfluous rehashes of woodworking issues. Indeed I have come to enjoy them. OH BOY, OH BOY, another discussion on how to fix errors in dovetails. WOW WOW WOW, another thread on how to brush on shellac. What we need are more TOTALLY NEW ideas, such as:
1) "draw bore pinned finger joints".
2) how to deal with difficult customers
3) Should the government fund research on the effects of dust on (and in) woodworkers.
4) Why exactly do woodworkers have better loooking wifes?Have fun. Thanks for straightening me out.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ah Mel,
you have told me I think too much; yet, you tease me with this.
First, you remind me that I'm new 'round here and then go further to point out my notes are lacking the answers that have been reached. Point taken.
Second, your final injunction to stick to "facts" rather than opinion challenges my epistemological assumptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact).
Finally, you flaunt the joke by answering your own question.
"We have made enormous progress!
We should all be proud.
Soon the last question will have been answered."
Now to deal with your straw-question; what do you want the end to be. At this point I feel you are drawing me into waters over my head and I know there are many here far more experienced to answer. What the hay. You want shy, go shy. You want proud, go proud. To my mind the question is; which surface is most prominent? Looking from that sense - I would choose to modify the smaller surface.
I await a lesson.
pete
Pete,
"epistemological assumptions"!!!!!!!!!You know, that is the first time that phrase has ever been used here in Knots. You bring up the age old conundrum of "How do we know what we know (if we really know it)? I am not sure this is the right forum to talk about doubting one'sself. I am not sure that anyone in the forum believes that there is a chance they are wrong on anything, although they disagree with each other all the time, which should give them a hint. This would all cease if they would stop giving opinions, and stick to the facts.Pete, you are no longer a newbie. You are one of the sages.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Sage is good. As long as you don't leave out the 'e'.Beautiful day!
""How do we know what we know (if we really know it)?"Mel,To find out, you'll have to read my book that I'm writing. It tackles all the tough questions. And I really am writing a book. We'll see how it goes and how long it takes me. I'm trying to answer the "why" rather than the "how" about woodworking.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
CHris,
The "why" of woodworking". That's easy. We work on wood because most of us don't have the tools to make and work on plastic.I have often thought of "why". I believe it is a highly personal question. Here is a fun exercise. Just don't publish your thoughts on it. Here is a list of some folks on Knots. Close your eyes (it heightens your other senses and your mental state. Think of the writings of these folks over the past few years, and come up with the best answer you can as to why you think each does woodwork.
- Rob Millard
- Lataxe
- OldDusty
- Adam Cherubini
- Bob of Kidderville Acres
- Richard Jones
- Samson
- Will George
- Madison 2
- RocIt really is an interesting exercise. I would have added Derek's name, but he is more of a tool afficianado than a woodworker. I wasn't sure about putting Adam on the list, because he may be more of an author than a woodworker, but he does have a website about his woodworking company. But I need to stop, because I am giving away the answers. In thinking about this, limit yourself to facts. :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
The "why" of woodworking".
I enjoy working with wood.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
You said: "The "why" of woodworking".
I enjoy working with wood."I believe you are right, but only partially. I think that too many of the responses on Knots are too short and that they miss the reality of the issue. Just like saying that there is "singing" in opera. It it true, but it misses a lot. My guess is that you do woodworking for a variety of reasons, and enjoyment is only a small part of it, although it is thoroughly intertwined with many of the rest of the reasons.For example, you probably do woodworking for practical reasons as well. SWMBO asks me to do lots of things for her that require woodworking. It is important and practical to keep SWMBO happy.Another reason for your doing woodwork is that it makes you feel a sense of accomplishment. That is certainly true for me.Your involvement in Knots as a "facilitator" is probably very important to your self-image. That would be another reason to do woodworking. One of the really interesting and useful aspects of Knots is that WE CAN FOOL OURSELVES, BUT WE CAN"T FOOL EVERYONE. Knotheads are always poking holes in my baloons. Fun, ain't it? Aside from your being an official on Knots, you are often involved in the social interaction on Knots. That's the fun part. To me, the social networking on Knots has little to do with woodworking, but woodworking is usually the Key to entry. Think more about why you actually do woodworking. When I responded to Chris, I suggested that he not write any of his thought on why these folks really do woodworking. That can lead to trouble, obviously. People have feelings. We all like to kid ourselves, and no-one likes to have their bubbles burst. It hurts the ego. It is actually fun to think about the different motivations people have for doing woodworking. Think about that list I put up, or make your own list. I'll bet you will see BIG differences in why folks do woodworking. AND THAT IS A GOOD THING.Have fun. Make some sawdust.
MelPS so why did I take up woodworking in 1968? Well, my wife-to-be is and was an inveterate sewing-person. She does quilts, needlework, clothes, drapes, counted crossstitch, etc etc etc. I needed to take up something to do while she was needleworking. My youngest brother had taken up woodworking. I looked at his stuff and said: if my little brother can do this, I can do it too. Wow, was I wrong. I am not sure that I really know the entire "why" of why I do woodwork now. I think a big part of it is that I love to solve problems that I find or generate. I like puzzles and mind-benders. Woodworking offers me more problems than I can solve. I choose projects because I can't do them, and because they are difficult for me when I do them the first time. Indeed, to me, the most important thing for a woodworker to have is the confidence that he can solve problems in the shop. When a woodworker attains that confidence, he becomes a "Real Woodworker". That doesn't mean he knows everything, but that he can figure it out.Have you ever noticed that the professionals on Knots never ask, "which bandsaw should I buy?", "what is the best block plane?" etc. They wouldn't think of asking questions of that ilk. It is not that they know everything. It is that they have come to the conclusion that they can and should be as self-reliant as possible. That is not "completely" why I do woodworking. There are a million reasons. I really like the "WOW, how did you make that." and "Thank you, I love it." that comes with giving away my woodwork for free. Yuk yuk yuk. I also realize that self-analysis is a really risky business. It is too easy for us to kid ourselves. However, I think that a main reason I do woodworking is for the problem solving aspects of it.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Why do I work in wood? I suck working in metal, too old to work with concrete anymore( knees) and my thumbs again "green"..
Found on lid of toolbox: " Although I have to right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right." Next to this sign: "If I had wanted to listen to someone cry ( bitch), complain, and moan all the time, I would have stayed home."
"no matter how good the plan looks on paper, something always goes wrong when one goes to use that plan".
A man prays for rain for his grass to grow, then complains about mowing the same grass.
A man give up woodworking when he found out the TAPE MEASURE does not have a POWER CORD.
... I think that too many of the responses on Knots are too short and that they miss the reality of the issue...
Right on my friend. I do it all the time.
However my excuse is I am always in a flurry (Typo here.. I left it because I wanted to type HURRY.) A sudden burst or commotion; a stir: So flurry fits for me...
But for no reason other than I was born that way. I can set aside time for going slowly in a life and death emergency but not in day to day life. I panic after the emergency.
And some of us do not have the gift of creative writing. The only hard part of passing my English classes. I never got more than passing grade on creative writing.
I have written more than a few service manuals on all sorts of machines and processes used for the products I serviced. My experience taught me two things.
1) Correct (tested) procedures written in as few words as possible.
2) Many pictures showing the Key Letter with a Arrow pointing to the subject (part/area).
I sure would love to see a small 'service manual' on how NASA does it for something not classified. Any links to view one?
****
And I saw "The "why" of woodworking".
That is so hard to answer because I would think it is like life and what makes one happy doing it. It has nothing to do with 'wood' working.
I think it should be 'whatever' working. For most of us, work and play are a necessary part of keeping our human brain growing larger for future human offspring and I would add for some unknown reason we just have to do! I think work and play are what made us 'Human' in the first place... Some say language.. I say work and play.
A Man and Woman can work and especially play together for years without words! OK, many grunts at different pitches at each other.. And get along very well. In fact, love each other but need time alone.
So..... There was woodworking, knitting, painting, growing flowers, making Axes, making a bed for your mate that was better than dirt she usually slept upon.. You just HAD to show off to her!
Edited 8/13/2009 9:04 am by WillGeorge
Will,
Ya know I think it takes a lot of experience to write effective training manuals so don't sell yersef short. A tech writer who uses imaginative ways to communicate something in a manual needs to be creative.
I got that from your post,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
so don't sell yersef short..
I never did... BUT I listened to gripes from the field workers.. Some surprised when I showed up on the job sight and asked "you griped and I would like to see your ideas on how to help your problems".
Never satisfied everybody!
Mel,I actually make plastic quite routinely in my shop. Epoxy is technically a plastic, right? So is PVA and polyurethane, right?With significant time spent researching and delving through Knots, I have determined that Bob of Kidderville Acres does woodworking because he enjoys it.Bob: "I enjoy working with wood"
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=47655.46PS: How can you ask me to guess why they do woodwork when I'm still trying to learn why I really do woodwork?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
You're absolutely right Chris and wood is the medium of choice. And Knots has made an incredible difference thanks to everyone in here.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
but he is more of a tool afficianado than a woodworker ?? Geeeee!
I see wonderful.. beautiful wood, steel and brass and whatever in his work!
AND..
We work on wood because most of us don't have the tools to make and work on plastic.
And wood is way less expensive! As in cast Acrylic.
And as to woodworking...
I would think Islam and other had fathers that were woodworkers! As in Joseph..
http://tech.cls.utk.edu/wood/research/MEwoodworking/index.htm
I for one does not hate anybody unless they mess with my family!
Edited 8/15/2009 12:36 am by WillGeorge
Mel,
The answer of which is best (pins proud or shy) is relevant when this factor is considered: when hand cutting the dovetails, is the artisan using a Japanese pull saw or Western push saw?
I have found, with total factual accuracy, that Western push saws are best for pin-proud work. The force of pushing a thicker blade through the wood creates a vortex of micro-abrasive air that is sucked through the kerf due to Bernoulli's Principle, which erodes the ephemeral edges of the pins and tails during cutting. Trimming the pins/tails removes the erosion, and makes the joint flush to a measurable tolerance of +/- .000001", which is so critical to the label of 'fine woodworking'.
By contrast, the thinner blade of an Japanese pull saw (hence, thinner kerf), does not produce the critical pressures required to generate a continued stream of micro-abrasive air. One can safely work pin-shy, as there is no accounting factor for edge blunting. Pin-shy technique will require the use of a pull-style plane to shave the drawer sides and face to final thickness, the benefit being the burnishing process creates a boundary of entropic electrical charges; without this boundary, a drawer will normally become ridiculously stuck in its opening due to seasonal movement, to become unstuck when the vernal or autumnal equinox rolls around.
So, Mel. There you have it. Fixed.
Get ready for Taunton's new social networking community "BraySpace".
Cheers,
Seth
Seth,
I didn't realize that you are one of the Philosopher-Kings. You identified the factor of Push-Pull in solving the problem of going proud/shy. This will get people thinking. Holy cow! Do you know what thinking can lead to? OH NO! The future will be interesting. I wonder if sociologists will study the behavior of social networking woodworkers. You raise interesting ideas.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi, Mel,Becoming a philosopher king was a by-product of a cosmically ordained event. See, I was deep in the fridge, rooting around for a mason jar of my mother's cinnamon peach slices (peaches right off her tree, it's been a good year), and ya can't have peaches without vanilla ice cream, so I had the freezer door open too, and wouldn't you know it, but the freezer door had gently started to close when I popped out from the fridge....Then I saw stars, and there was a sound of a throaty steam powered train followed by the crashing waves of the ocean, and there might have been the maniacal giggling of my 12 year old son who was laughing AT me, not WITH me, I don't have enough recollection on that part.Anywho, that little incident gave me sight beyond sight; yeah, I couldn't believe it at first, either. Let me share some tidbits, as proof.1) There is a sasquatch. 6 of them, really. Bob, his wife Darla, the twin sons Ben and Ken, Stephanie and little Becky. Bob's a cartographer up there in St. Paul, MN, but as a side job, he trudges through the woods for local sci fi clubs because helping people out feels good. Nice people, the Sasquatchs, gentle as butterflies.2) Jaques Cousteau spoke perfect, accent-free English. He just didn't like to, because he had a running bet for how many times he could say the name of his boat, "Cah-leep-so", with an outrageous French accent, before completely cracking up. 3) A tree, falling in the woods when no one is around, does make a sound. It sounds a lot like "@#$%*, I knew this would happen. #*$**&! A little help? Someone, a little help?"Cheers,Seth
Edited 8/11/2009 11:00 am ET by Hamelech
Celebrating the 40th anniversary of Woodstock, are we?Just heard that on the radio coming back from HD. 40! yrs.!!! God but time do fly. When I was a kid watching all the old WWII movies on tv that war was only 20 yrs. previous.
I was but a very wee infant in 1969, so I was technically around for Woodstock and the moon landing, though documentaries and such have to substitute for never having "been there".Here's one for you. In the late 70's, early 80's, my parents would sometimes schlep the family up to San Francisco's Stern Grove for various plays, concerts 'n such. One guy we saw was Pete Seeger. I probably grumbled at the time, but I can claim that I "was there."Oh, as a college student in the 90's, I did go to an Allen Ginsberg poetry reading, and the man himself read the poems. Strange duck.Cheers,SethEdited 8/11/2009 12:34 pm ET by Hamelech
Edited 8/11/2009 3:15 pm ET by Hamelech
I'd match creds with you but I don't remember.
Seth,
It is good to know a philosopher-king. This small and select group of people really understand the meaning and nature of life and of the universe.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>cosmically ordained . . . mason jar . . . stars. . . steam powered . . .crashing waves of . . . maniacal giggling
the Sasquatchs
Jaques
tree, falling in the woods . . . sounds a lot like "@#$%* <Ha, ha, ha, aaahhhh, Ha, ha, ha, harocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
cats and dogs...living together... mass hysteria...Inadvertently, or not, your distillation of my post inspires an interesting literary challenge - Da Vinci code style, can you slip in a secondary message into a post that others can figure out?Cheers,Seth
>Da Vinci code style, can you slip in a secondary message into a post that others can figure out?<Cool idea. I rented that movie twice this year from NetFlix. That is saying something. Most modern movies don't interest me THAT much. I realize most of it wasn't accurate but was fun any way.I am sure most of my posts already contain secondary messages that are subconscious to me. Sort of like an ink blot in reverse. To which the psycs around here have already interpreted and been appalled by. I would rather not know; ignorance is bliss and all that.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Most modern movies don't interest me THAT much... I for one love the old Turner movies..
http://www.tcm.com/index.jsp
TCM
There you goHey do you remember ever seeing a WC Fields bit where he is playing pool and by the way he handles the cue it looks like it is rubber and is wavy ?He is supposed to be drunk and attempting to play pool and the tip of the cue has a mind of it's own.I been looking for that for years and can't find the show it is part of.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I've been getting movies from the local library. Many degrees fewer selections than NetFlix, but no rental fees, either. My wife is old world Filipino, she was pleased to discover the library carries a fair selection of Tagalog-language dramatic movies, that I lovingly refer to as "shout 'n cry". Typical story - wholesome girl/boy meet, true love, a jealous third party tries to intervene, all parents find out, secret meetings against parental wishes, compromising situations, fingers get pointed, accusations fly, tempers boil over, someone inevitably goes to the hospital, more shoutin' 'n cryin', verbal carpet bombing, things get patched over, jealous interloper gets their send off, and girl/boy are together again.Whew, I'm drained.Oh, to maintain the woodworking theme - my library is thin on Taunton titles, both video and periodical.Cheers,Seth
the library As I only know USA the library .. It is a wonderful thing. Bring the book back or you may go to jail for many years!
Will,My local branch is usually packed. Summer vacation and a high jobless rate will do that.Being a mean, nasty father, I've made my son spend an hour a day reading books that are on the school district's summer reading list. I'm proud that he's completed two John Steinbeck books, Cannery Row and Sweet Thursday. That's two more Steinbeck books than I've read....Now its 'Into Thin Air', by John Krakaur. It's about a Mt. Everest climbing disaster in 1996. The subject is solemn, the writing is simple and powerful.Cheers,Seth
Seath..
My little china dolls read 100 books each over the summer break. Their mother is a teacher. OK, little books for little children but they love going to the library!
Mel,
I can recognize your threads from a mile away.
It's a trick question, of course. Neither shy nor proud is correct. Flush is the only way.
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Mel, whats this proud or shy stuff. I learned FLUSH back in kindergarten, along with play nice, color inside the lines and a bunch of other life lessons. ;o)
The Professional Termite
Mel:
I learned in philosophy class, years ago, that the final and ultimate question is known by every three year old in the world and it is unanswerable. It is "why." I'm reasonably certain it would apply to woodworking as well and will always be asked.
Thanks for the entertainment,
Jim
Which follows the two-year- old's declaration of independence -> NO!I still delight in saying that just for the hell of it.
Edited 8/11/2009 2:13 pm ET by habilis
My son is 12, nearly 13. "Why?" has been replaced with "How come?" Where he once hard-stopped at "Why?", "How Come?" has more after it, used as the first shot fired in a negotiation.I once hard-stopped at "Because", which sufficed for "Why?". Now "Because" has more after it, the first parry in a "How Come?" negotiation.Cheers,Seth
Seth:My kids are way, way older than yours and they don't use "why" as much anymore. I'm lucky to get it from my grandchildren, whom I don't get to see as often as I would like.Keep posting,Jim
>final and ultimate question is known by every three year old in the world and it is unanswerable. It is "why."<I used to think 'Why" was important and spent a life time with it that I don't regret.I must say, how ever, this is why most, well all, philosophers are broke.I have come to realize that " Who " is perhaps the ultimate question, at least to todays youth, and at least if one wants to get along and become well to do.It seems most people don't find 'Why" to be of any interest to them.Odd that.signed,the hermitrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc:I grew up with "why," however you may be right about "who." It seems "who" carries a lot of weight in this generation, whereas "why" just may have lost it's importance. Of course that all changes when money's involved, or the need for money. Ask my kids.Keep no posting,Jim
What the hell is BU or BD,is this a trick question?
Makes no difference, which ever you prefer
the best is the one you own
Woody Woodpecker
bandsaw boxes are passe, caulk is in vogue
I like disk and floor drum sanders for their speed
I'll take the fifth on this one
Rub it on a concrete block,make sure you use a mixture of kerosene and motor oil for a lubricant. You will need about a gallon per block. Two or three concrete blocks will suffice of varying grits. I start with 11 ,then go to 25 and finish with extra fine 47 grit.
Not sure, but I can tell you the plastic ones that look like swords are lousy for this application
I am not familiar with the golden rectum, you pulling my leg?
neither the layout lines should be knifed in.
Now you have the facts, no need to read any other posts
mike
Mike,
You have great insight into the true meaning of woodwork, and you have the "facts". We need more woodworking comedy writers like you.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mike,BU is bevel up and that makes BD bevel down. Talking about planes of course.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thanks Chris, I hadn't the slightest idea what either abbrieviation meant. Then again I was around 45 years old before I found out what ASAP meant. 20 years later my wife still laughs about it.
mike
Facts are meaningless - you could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
Homer Simpson...
WG,
Yup, Homer was right!.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Part of the "joy" of wood-working is finding answers to problems that come up. If one has all the answers, why work in wood? If there is no "fun" in wood working, wood working becomes just WORK, and that is a four letter word. I needed a table with a "floating top". The fun was finding a way to make the top float above the rest of the table and still be a part of the table. Table is now done, with the top "floating" about 1/2" above the table. Add in the fact I needed the drawer front's grain to match EXACTLY the rest of the front apron's grain, plus add in some "cockbeading" and tapered legs, all in TWO weekends of working on it. Lots of fun finding the "answers" myself.
Hi Mel,
Sorry I've been away awhile so missed your original post. I have to point out that you haven't necessarily got satisfactory answers to all the questions. As I recall, we once exchanged views on the tails or pins first issue and it was quite clear that they're done one way in the northern hemisphere and the other way in the southern; we never did settle on the appropriate method for shops on the equator. If you've stumbled on the answer to that one, I'd like to hear it.
Not a problem in Juneau,
Verne
Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!
Verne,
Cutting dovetails on the equator requires strictly hand tools sans magnetic gew gaws as they don't work in equatorial locations. The problem is further exacerbated (sp?) by the tilt of the earth's axis and time of year.
In extreme northern and southern hemispherical locations this is not a problem but equatorical lads must first spit on their blades whilst lying on the ground, facing east or is it west?
Cutting accurate miters on the equator is another cloud of smoke though..............
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Ah, now, thar ya go. I hate to be a naysayer, but you've got that one a little twisted. Having sailed the high latitutudes, I can tell ye that the magnetic gizmos work just fine at the equator, but go all gunnysack near the poles. The dovetail problem at 0 degrees north or south is that the daylight is generally directly overhead and getting an accurate sun line so's you can line up your paring chisel properly is darn difficult--hence the confusion over whether to cut y'r tails or pins first. As I say, our friend Mel hasn't provided an authoratative answer to that conundrum. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne,
I have never been to Alaska. What are the native trees up there? In other words, what are the most common local woods?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel ,
The fact that you've never been to Alaska explains your confusion about dove tails and the equator, but we can go into that at some other time.
The native trees in Southeast are Sitka Spruce, hemlock, hemlock, one or two cedar trees, and Sitka Spruce. Up north, in the interior, I understand that they also have a birch tree. Out in the Aleutions and up on the North Slope, they claim to have had a tree or two once upon a time, but I believe it was prior to the last Ice Age. I've been out the chain, but I don't remember seeing one out there.
The local stuff is good for paper, cardboard, and pulp. No, let me correct that. Old growth Sitka Spruce is highly prized for ships' spars (the mainmast on the USS Constitution was replaced not too many years ago with a spruce from Southeast), piano sound boards, and guitar tops. Other than that, it's pretty much good for paper pulp and local use dimensional lumber. Since the pulp mills have all closed down, that doesn't leave much.
I also have to say that the local yellow cedar is used a lot for carving. Mostly native masks, totems, etc.
If you look back a ways (way back, that is) you may find my name in a Fine Woodworking article that addresses the trials and tribulations of woodworkers up here. Sandor Nagyszalanczy was kind enough to stop by and visit while he was researching an article on woodworking in Alaska. As I recall, he wrote about the material challenges we face.
Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne,
You have given me a newfound appreciation for the difficulties of woodworking in Alaska. Very interesting. So you do what we do, and get wood shipped in. But around here in Virginia we are lucky enough to have some nice local wood. My taste in wood is much like my taste in Ice Cream - Maple/Walnut.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
View Image
Sean,
Excellent, dude.
What did you carve the ice cream and cone out of?
How did you finish it?
It looks very real!
You could start an entirely new form of woodworking,
FAUX FOOD. Of course the Japanese have been doing it in wax for a long time, but wood is more of a challenge. Well, you have again influenced me in a positive direction. My grandson, Freddy, is staying with us this week. As a result of your post, I will take him out for a cone this afternoon.
Have fun. Stay cool.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,On the topic of faux food, are you familiar with the work of Craig Nutt? Incredibly artistic work indeed. Look it up!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
At your suggestion, I looked up Craig Nutt. Wow. Extremely creative! Extraordinary! Thanks for that.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The final woodworking question ..
See, carve with, Paint with..
A have to see!
Sure wish I was younger and could afford this product!
http://luminore.com/index.php
http://www.metalfacades.com/blog/page/2/
And use this stuff above while listening to Cool Water by Sons Of the Pioneers!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taW5WBAlEeI&feature=related
Sons of the Pioneers "Tumbling Tumble Weeds"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UiSMyyj-Ac&NR=1
I do love.. Ken Curtis...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWR6FLnPack&feature=related
Tell NASA when the men and women go to MARS they should have the recording above to listen to.. Such brave, intelligent folks.. With/Without water! No hate meant... If NASA offered me a ride there I would say I'd love to go but I pass out on a modern amusement ride!
OR one song I will always remember..
Honey... By Bobby Goldsboro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59BZxgohr9g&feature=related
What a wonderful song and the singer.. Sure glad I heard this song...
And last Christmass my Son-In-Law got me the 7 DVD set of COSMOS by Carl Sagan.. I just had some trash recording on VHS? I made from the old TV shows...
Life is great! OK, so as long as you are ALIVE!
AND never forget.. Wayne Nelson's
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Wayne+Newton+daddy+dont+you+walk+so+fast&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=D5SNSq-wIo7kNe6w2cwK&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4#
Sorry music keeps me sane!
And best thing I can think of making my two China beds in a very small shop...
That'll Be The Day Movie...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G-s7RYcRbw&feature=related
And maybe the Beach boys.. Finding all the parts in my small shop!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1FaflUn4Co
And when my wife got a pissed at me I was the one with the Glass Of Heart!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGWVoLGAA8
But then there are so many wonderful song writers!
I could keep this up for a few years... On the songs I like! I wll leave it with....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zgwVZtlUU&feature=related
Sorry I was thinkin I had a woman!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IQBKWdXnqU&feature=related
Edited 8/20/2009 3:18 pm by WillGeorge
WG
You have too much time on your hands.
Or, you are very fast in your computer searches.
That metalizing stuff is very interesting.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thorvald,When you say Southeast,I think you need to edit that to mean Southeast Alaska. Not too many in Georgia. Had me goin for a bit. :-)BB
Aye, but you see, there's only one Southeast. All those other places to which you refer are but minor locales within what we affectionately know as the "Lower-48."Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I passed through Alaska one year, on the way out and back to Adak N.A.S. 21 day relief in place thing. And yes, Adak has trees! In fact, there is an Adak National Forest on the island. Has about 10, maybe 15 pine trees in it.
Alas, NAS Adak is no more. The Coast Guard LORAN Station at Attu has a similar Nat'l Forest, but as I recall they only had one or two trees--and not very big ones at that.
Isn't the Chain an amazing place? If you drugged me and transported me to the Aleutians, when I woke up, I'd have no doubt where I was-it isn't like any other place in the world.
You didn't happen to be one of those P-3 flyers, did you? Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I was there as a foward observer( 13F20) supporting a bunch of "Bush-beaters". That was back in 87. The surf up there is crazy, just too cold to be any fun, LOL. Caribo on the rifle range! A buddy took a little free time to trout fish, and had about six of them laying by the bank ( in the water, all tied together) and ahd just started to cast again when a BALD EAGLE swooped down and STOLE his fish! Was there for 19 days (June) and saw blue sky 8 days total. Yep, nice place to go.
I was anticipating a bear story until the eagle swooped in. ;-)
Well, there WAS a bear story while I was there. Seems one of the Marine units decided to go anmd train over on Kodiak Island. Picture this: a bunch of Marines running around in the "bush", carrying M16s loaded with BLANKS ( training exercise, you know) when they run into the main "tennent" of Kodiak Island. That's right, a Kodiak Bear, after their MREs. After about three days, they had to be evac'ed out of there! I did see Grand Siska Island, just over the horizon, on the few days it was clear enough. I heard what sounded like bullfrogs out in the grass, turns out there are no frogs on that island! Those were Tundra Grouse. Lot to see on that island, some from WWII, some newer. Airstrip ( the NEW one) was laid out like an aircraft carrier's deck. The old WWII one is still on the island, just a few wood buildings, some old metal tarmac strips everywhere, and an old hanger. We set up a "privy" in the hanger. Nothing like sitting there, letting all that wind-blown sand do the job of toilet paper for you! On that Island, a 20 knot wind was considered "calm"!
Dog,
without you, this would have been a dull thread.
Thanks.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Have to appologize for missing an opportunity. I was in your neighborhood this week--though only for a couple of days--and I didn't think to get in touch in advance so I could procure an adult beverage for you. Promise I'll try to do that next time I'm headed all the way back to the other end of the country. I expect that will be before you come to Alaska. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne,
Sorry I missed you.
Please let me know next time.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
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