The evolving definition of “hybrid”
forestgirl
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Has anyone followed the hybrid saws from inception closely enough to give a “ape to human” type description of how these saws have evolved? Also, what do you consider now to be a hybrid? I see saws with relatively big motors (3HP, say) and frame-mounted trunnions called hybrids. I see a Jet saw at the local dealer, said saw having an enlcosed base but table-mounted trunnions, and the dealer swears “We don’t carry hybrids, they’re junk!” Hello? It ain’t a cabinet saw, in my book.
So help me out here.
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
FG - There are no standard definitions for the hybrid class, but it seems that the most commonly accepted descriptor is for a full size stationary home duty saw with an enclosed belt drive induction motor that will run on a standard 120v circuit. That description is inclusive of multiple style trunnion systems whether cabinet or table mounted, and both enclosed and splayed leg stands. Some will argue about trunnion location and full enclosure, but most agree about the significant difference in construction of an industrial grade cabinet saw and a hybrid. Most of the hybrids have table mounted trunnions, except for the Craftsman zipcode saws and the Steel City hybrids. The primary difference between a hybrid and a contractor saw is the location of the motor. Moving the motor inside the cabinet offers a host of advantages that are similar to a full blown industrial cabinet saw, save for the lighter duty rating and lower horsepower. The writing is on the wall for the 60 year old contractor saw design, and it appears on the verge of obsolescence....it really poses no advantage over the modern hybrid unless you need easy access to the motor. Steel City does offer a 3hp hybrid but it basically places a larger motor on the existing cabinet mounted hybrid trunnions, which were designed to handle the added weight, but are very different from the cabinet mounted trunnions of a full industrial cabinet saw. None of the hybrid designs is as ruggedly built as a standard industrial grade cabinet saw like a Uni, 1023, PM66, General 350, etc, though they're well suited for home use IMO. (for the record, Steel City offers a 1-3/4hp hybrid, a 3hp hybrid, and a 3hp industrial cabinet saw)
I've followed the hybrids since the era of the GI 50-200 and the nearly identical Jet 2hp hybrids, that I think were out just prior to the DeWalt DW746 and the original Jet Supersaw. There were other miscellaneous predecessors over the years, but it was really the evolution of the portable jobsite saw that replaced the full size contractor saw at the jobsite, and changed it's primary use from portable to stationary, and negated the need for the outboard motor and the host of disadvantages associated with it.
AFAIK, the issues with the early Jet and GI were the requirement of 220v and a fairly high price. The price and the electrical requirements put you firmly into the territory of a 3hp Grizzly 1023 or a Bridgewood industrial type cabinet saw.
The DW746 really put the hybrid on the map. Jet followed suit with their "Supersaw". The DW is still around but has less appeal these days compared to a full featured recent generation hybrid. The original Jet SS has pretty much been replaced, though there are some still available from existing stock, and Jet has a new heavier duty and pricier version of the "Supersaw".
There are now full sized hybrids from every major player except Ridgid. Jet has two lines...the "ProShop" and the "WorkShop" saw in addition to the newer Supersaw. Grizzly, GI, Delta, Shop Fox, Steel City, Craftsman, Sunhill, King Industrial, Canwood, Craftex, Hitachi, and Woodtek all offer at least one hybrid. SawStop does not yet have a hybrid, but I don't yet consider them as a "major player". PM does not have one with their name, but Jet represents the WMH group. Some of the hybrids with enclosed motors are still called "contractor saws" by the manufacturer, which helps confuse the issue, and is also what I consider a marketing mistake since the term is now a misnomer anyway. Prices tend to range from $400 on sale to ~ $1200...some are even more for optional sliders and long rails, etc. There are many good choices in the $600-$900 range.
Edited 1/8/2008 10:48 am ET by Knotscott
Some visual aids courtesy of FG's tutoring -
Earlier 2hp hybrids - GI 50-200/Jet JWCS-10A:
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DW746/ original Jet "Supersaw":
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Next generation - 22124 / cab mounted trunnions / Steel City 35601:
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GI 50-220 / Delta 36-715 / Hitachi C10FL:
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Shop Fox / Grizzly
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Jet Proshop 708488k (482k with extension) :
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Jet Workshop 708100:
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New Jet Supersaw with Exacta fence:
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Sunhill CT-250T:
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Edited 1/8/2008 11:33 am ET by Knotscott
Wow, Knotscott, thanks! I have not followed the details of the different saws over the past few years (I''m sure that will disasppoint my naysayers, LOL!!). I'd like to discuss these saws with a more informed mind the next time I stop by the local tool place, and know more than I did when evaluating the Steel City saws.
I have a specific question for you: could any saw with table-mounted trunnions be considered a "cabinet saw"?? I'm thinking "no" but curious about your opinion.
Methinks that Steel City is muddying the waters a bit, as they call all of their saws "cabinet" saws, but some seem to have lighter trunnions than others. Can't tell for sure, just looking at the web site, of course. When I went to Sumner to look in person, just before Christmas, they'd sold all but one so I couldn't compare first-hand. All but one run on 220V, and all have cabinet-mounted trunnions. They are introducing an official hybrid next month, which has a riving knife (and the controversial granite top). It'll be interesting to see if they call it a hybrid.
Is there a difference in the mounting location of the hybrid motors vs. a traditional cabinet saw? I've not had an opportunity to look inside a Unisaw, PM66, etc.
Thanks again!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"I have a specific question for you: could any saw with table-mounted trunnions be considered a "cabinet saw"?? I'm thinking "no" but curious about your opinion."
Sure...some of the old vintage cabinet saws had table-mounted trunnions.
"Methinks that Steel City is muddying the waters a bit, as they call all of their saws "cabinet" saws, but some seem to have lighter trunnions than others."
SC has two versions of what I consider to be a "hybrid" (with different fence options) that are very similar to the Craftsman "hybrids", but one version sports a 3hp motor. They also offer a couple of industrial grade cabinet saws that are more similar to a Griz or Unisaw type cabinet saw.
"Is there a difference in the mounting location of the hybrid motors vs. a traditional cabinet saw? I've not had an opportunity to look inside a Unisaw, PM66, etc."
No and Yes...just about every model has a slightly different location, but I'm not sure how much difference in makes in performance. The hybrids and cabinet saws don't face the forces of having the motor cantilevered off the back that a contractor saw has. I'll try to ellaborate later on which style trunnion each hybrid has.
PM66 :
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SC Industrial / SC Hybrid (22124 is the same):
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Griz 1023SL :
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Grizzly G0478 hybrid:
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Edited 1/8/2008 1:20 pm ET by Knotscott
Knotscott,
Regardless of how saws evolved, please educate me as to what is a good / desirable design for trunions (or whatever it is that makes a tablesaw great) with examples of what brands/models are that way.
I have a General "cabinet" saw that I like (except that it lacks a riving knife) but this thread has me wondering what the pros would consider the best design for a saw.
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
The correct answers to that are almost limitless. I'm no pro, but I think what makes a TS great is going to be a matter of opinion, and is relative to what you do with it, what you've experienced, what you need, and what you can spend. I've always considered the General a really nice saw, but I suppose compared to an $20K Altendorf it has some shortcomings! LOL...
Edited 1/13/2008 10:54 am ET by Knotscott
I would agree. Given that all the top saws are pretty equal in quality and design, what makes a saw 'great' is proper setup and alignment. Assuming the motor spindle is perfect and there is no runout in the blade, proper setup means the fence is as perfectly aligned parallel with the miter slots and blade as possible. The blade is as perfectly aligned parallel with the miter slots and the fence. In other words, the fence and the blade, must be as perfectly parallel to the miter slots as possible (at every tilt angle as well). I use a dial indicator to set up my equipment. My blade is parallel to the miter slot to with in .0010 of an inch, from edge to edge of the blade. My fence is within .0030 on an inch parallel to the miter slot from end to end. The reality is my fence is not flat to within .0030, so take that with the grain of salt. Perfect parallel alignment to .0000 would be better and is the ultimate goal, but it's in all practicality unachievable due to environmental influences e.g. the effect of temperature fluctuations on metal and plastics.At least that's my take on what makes a saw 'great'....Jeff
Alan, you put cabinet in quotation marks. Whyzzzat?? The thing about trunnions is whether they are attached to the top (as with the standard contractor saw design) or to the cabinet. If they are attached to the cabinet, you adjust the blade parallel to the miter slot by moving the table, a relatively simple process. If they are attached to the underneath of the table, the process is, IMHO, ridiculously difficult. You have to loosen the trunnion bolts, and take a 2x4 and a hammer, and set about trying to get your <.002 or whatever deviance from parallel. Crap.
Beyond that, the standard mounting of the motor -- hanging out the back of a contractor saw -- pretty much guarantees that when you tilt the blade to 45°, the blade will no longer be parallel to the miter slot.
Neither of those issues touches the various aspects that give the saw mass, stability, lack of vibration, all that stuff. Can't comment on those, as my old blue Jet saw is a weenie in those regards. (Well, it's not bad for a dinosaur contractor saw, but still.....)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl,
I put "cabinet" in quotes because I realized I am not sure what defines a given saw as a cabinet saw, or a hybird, or contractors or anything else.
My General is a great saw. Rock solid. Can stand a nickle on edge, start the saw, and the nickle doesn't fall over.
Alan - planesaw
"My General is a great saw." Which model is it, Alan, just curious.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
It is a General 350.
Alan - planesaw
Last year I picked up a used (mid-1990's) JET JCS10 2HP saw with a fully enlosed cabinet and table-mounted trunnions. On the name plate, it calls itself a cabinet saw.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx
Forestgirl,
Still weeding through the saws? I've been on a similar hunt.
Only wanted to add that Jet's Proshop will have the riving knife later this year. And from everything I've seen (exploded drawings) they are essentially the same design underneath as the GI, Sunhill, Woodtek. Better fence, different base.
Also Grizzly is offering some new "contractor" saw with enclosed 2hp motor and riving knife in Feb, but I haven't been able to find any drawings and Grizzly has no info. (Strange since they will be selling in less than a month)
FWIW I am unsure of the designs that use the two rods to connect the trunnions. My contractor saw's carriage can and does twist out of alignment due to this design and the arrangement of the motor.
I've seen drawings of Sawstop's contractor and it does use the two rods and the motor hangs out the back. Why they would create a new saw and still use those features is beyond me. But the rest of the carriage is different to allow for the brake.
I'm going with the Sawstop if they honor their intro price for preorder's. There are some things I'm not excited about but having the brake and riving knife are the unique features.
Feel free to share any info, I'm pretty much decided on the Sawstop but if the Proshop had the riving knife it would be a tough call.
It is too bad about the new Sawstop model being a contractor saw. I suspect the owner/developer just didn't see the writing on the wall about the demise of the contractor design. It could end up really hurting him if he has to start over and develop a hybrid with the brake. Price point is an issue too. I suspect a SawStop hybrid would be just too expensive to get the blade brake into a large number of hands.
Much of the instigation of this thread comes from feeling uninformed about the hybrids as they now stand, and what the development was. Though it may be spittin' into the wind, I'll try to get the local guys to understand these saws a little better. They are a very insulated, ornery bunch, for sure!
Much as I'd like to have that SawStop brake, I think I'm headed to a Steel City saw, unless we hit the lottery jackpot. I just can't see spending hundreds of dollars on a saw that gets all twisted at 45° and is so d*mned hard to adjust for alignment! There are too many affordable saws that have frame-mounted trunnions and above-the-table stop adjustments. I'll let you know when I get a hands-on with the SC hybrid. I think it's supposed to be out in February.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
These hybrid saw debates are pretty fun, if one is in the mood for it.And since I'm in the mood to spew opinions, here are mine:I think "cabinet" saws originally meant a table saw for use in a cabinet shop. Meaning not portable. As another mentioned there are some very heavy old saws that used table mounted trunnions. Also I think this meant being able to be run on heavier circuits, so 3-phase and 5hp pretty common.So I don't think cabinet saw meant the trunnions were mounted on the cabinet, originally. It may mean or be interpreted to mean that now.As far as trunnions being mounted on a cabinet vs the top I really don't think that is much of an issue. Some seem to get really worked up about this but I've never understood why. One is easier to align initially but thats about it. Not really something that gets tweaked very often.But the stability of the saw carriage and the motor support/power transfer is a much greater issue IMO. So to me a one piece arbor support design(this is what I'm calling how the front and back trunnions connect) is much more important. This should not twist or deflect during use whether at 90 or any bevel. Bad cuts and possibly a safety issue with kickback if it really twisted.It seems the Steel City/Sears saw has most of the bases covered. I've always been suspect of the hanging motor since its only supported by one trunnion and that the trunnions are kept in plane by the old twin tubes. However I've never really heard of anybody complaining that they twist out of alignment during a cut. So they may be over engineered enough to compensate for those forces.The General, Sunhill, Jet Proshop/Workshop, etc. are the same design in different housings. If you've ever looked at the parts drawings for these tools they all use the same drawing for the carriage assembly. There probably are differences in the bearings, quality control, and motors; definitely differences in features like hand wheels and more importantly fence options. They use a one piece casting for the arbor support and the motor weight is distributed to both trunnions; also it uses fixed belt tension not the motor weight.PM66, Unisaw & clones, General cabinet saws all use very heavy castings and multiple belt drives. They are engineered far beyond the stresses experienced in normal use. You can tweak a one of these saws but it takes either an extraordinary event or much time. Which is why they are so great, you can expect it to stay square and accurate once tuned without having to babysit the thing.If you keep your saw at 90 then I think even a good contractor would work. If you do many bevels and you have a contractor then its likely you've experience the fun of realigning the twin tubes and then the carriage to the table. Just about the least favorite maintenance I can think of in the wood shop. I would suggest taking a clamp and hardwood block with a brass screw in the end and a Sharpie when you check out the saw of choice if its a new hybrid. Just use the miter gauge to check blade alignment, heel it over to 45 and recheck. If the alignment changes you might be able to shim the table to compensate.I don't know about you but I'll be glad when I get a saw in the shop and don't need to go through the decision tree any more.
I have a Delta contractors saw up north & got the Delta Hybrid here in FL. I like both very well, but the hybrid seems to run smoother & quieter. It,s 1 3/4 HP vs 1 1/2 HP. If the contractors saw ever dies, (which I doubt), I probably would get another Delta Hybrid.
James
adastra001, the definition is much simpler than you realise. In American terminology a cabinet saw is one that hides all the essential working gubbins under the table inside a sheet metal 'cabinet'. A contractor's saw has pretty much all the working parts exposed. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
<<A contractor's saw has pretty much all the working parts exposed>>Richard,I've seen many a contractor (mostly plumbers) on the job with at least one working part exposed and I'm here to tell you, it ain't pretty.Mike
Richard, while that definition of a contractor saw may be the same (ugly parts exposed), the definition of a cabinet saw can no longer be simply the opposite (parts enclosed). Had you flown the coop before the hybrids hit the market? The early ones especially were far from anything you'd call a cabinet saw, methinks. Many of the hybrids are now approaching a "cabinet saw lite" classification, as they have many more of the features of a cabinet saw, but from what I hear are not constructed from the same heavy components.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Of course, this is exactly what you'd expect to get from uncontrolled hybridization. Labradoodles, cockapoos, schnoodles...you name it.
-Steve
Ah, jeeeez, Steve - don't get me STARTED!! ROFL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
in other words...mutts...
I'm au fait with the essentials of US definitions of cabinet saw, contractor saw and hybrid saw, FG. Hybrid saws as they're called in the US were around when I lived there. When they first appeared on the US market I wondered why they had to invent a new name for them as they were much the same as saws I'd used, seen, and was familiar with.
They've been around for decades in similar guises in the European market. They're not called hybrid saws here, and never have been: they're just saws, dinky lightweight saws aimed primarily at the amateur or small professional perhaps, but still saws capable of doing a job.
You've got to remember that when it comes to saws, saw fences, and guards the US has remained in the dark ages for about 80 years now, ever since the first Delta Unisaw appeared on the market and sort of stymied all other advances in saw technology for the rest of the century.
You guys are just starting to play catch-up on the saw front, which is strange since you're so far ahead of us Europeans in many other woodworking technologies. Hell's bells, some of your saws even have one of those mysterious riving knife thingies nowadays, and some incorporate a sliding table for cutting up sheet goods-- very 20th. century, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.
Edit a couple of hours later. I did forget to mention that for some odd reason most North Americans are still in thrall to that retrograde device known as the 'long rip fence'. I've never really understood the love affair most North Americans have for that loathsome piece of kit: it's got obvious potential for being a significant contributor to kickback incidents, and the injuries that could follow.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 1/9/2008 6:08 pm by SgianDubh
"for some odd reason most North Americans are still in thrall to that retrograde device known as the 'long rip fence'. I've never really understood the love affair most North Americans have for that loathsome piece of kit: it's got obvious potential for being a significant contributor to kickback incidents, and the injuries that could follow." Who knows, Richard -- "the bigger the better" maybe? Must be a cross between the simplicity and the size of the darned thing. Your average Joe Weekend Woodworker probably doesn't want to know about short fences.
"dinky lightweight saws aimed primarily at the amateur or small professional perhaps, " Especially those who are monetarily challened, LOL. Tell ya the truth, the thought of a 5HP+ 12" table saw scares the cr*p out of me. May not be reasonable, I know, but I'd rather throw myself in front of a 2000 lb. horse than deal with a blade backed by that much power, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie....More Power = More Safety.Trust me. Just like dull edges are more dangerous, underpowered saws are far, far, far, more dangerous. Did I mention they're far more dangerous?
What you say is very true Boss. Give me a 5, 7, 9, 12, 15 horse power monster any day over a 3 horse power tiddler. Those big machines generally just keep blasting through the wood when the tiddlers are intent on chucking the wood back in your face. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Well, I'll be moving up to a 3HP (from 1.75) probably. Does that help? Evidently not, from Richard's reply. Well, I doubt I'll ever be able to justify getting a 5HP+ but I'll remember what you and he are saying, thanks!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/10/2008 5:30 pm by forestgirl
3hp will be a noticeable improvement over what you have, IMO.
I think that it depends on what you cut. For most stuff that the average home shop cuts a real 3 HP is fine. If you do a lot of thick dense wood then a 5 HP 12" blade would be a better fit.
I believe that a sliding table is a higher priority to most than a saw with more HP.
Hey FG...
The 3 HP will probably be sufficient for most of what you cut. I just ran about 200 linear feet of 10/4 oak through a 3 HP and no problems.
But.. I do often end up with 12/4 and 16/4 which I will rip on the BS after sizing down to 48" and under. If the project component needs to longer than 48" I am not currently set up to support if properly on my BS, so I rip it on the 3 HP on one side and then turn it over.
But.. as content as I am most of the time with 3 HP.. I do often get the "want" for a 12" saw with 5 HP for those occasions. I wouldn't rush out to get one, but if I stumbled across a used 12" 5 HP at an attractive price, I probably wouldn't hesitate to jump on it. I got my factory reco'ded Uni-saw at at price that would return my investment in it.
And... I am not a "Joe week-end" warrior, but I am a "Joe every-day" warrior and I do have a "short" fence sitting proudly over a perfectly long Biesemeyer fence thanks to my discovery of what a short fence is years ago. As a matter of fact, that discovery was due to Richard Jones comments about "short" fences at that time.
Added one.. got very accustomed and comfortable with it and would never look back at this point. And it cost me under $2.00 to make.
Sarge..
Hi, Sarge, nice set-up! I don't envision myself cutting much 16/4 material, LOL. Am sure I'll be happy with 3HP. Craig's List had a treasure listed yesterday, wish I could take advantage: somebody won a SC 3HP cabinet sawl, 50", with the titanium top, and didn't have room for it in his shop. Sheesh! Asking $1500 for it.
OK, your picture......What are details on that featherboard arrangement? Did you post something on that, and I missed it? Looks like red T-track on the left edge of the table. What's up with that?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The SC Titanium would be a steal. We poured water on one early one morning last year at the Atlanta WW Show. We wiped it off late that afternoon. No rust... If I had done that on my Uni-saw, it would have appeared in about 30 minutes and don't ask me how I know. :>)
The feather-board is actually a spring board. I have posted pictures of it before. If you look at it carefully and think of spring, it is sort of self explanatory. But.. if the picture is not large enough, let me know and I will get a larger shot that should explain it.
The T track is correct. It rides in a miter slot I added to outer edge of the left extension table. The slots in the board allow it to be positioned right up to the blade or backed off for anything that is larger up to 20" on the left of saw-blade. The board is made of scrap birch ply for the main body and two strips of poplar for the springs up front that give it the name. About $15 with the purchase of the T track and miter slot it rides in.
Sarge..
Pardon me for butting in on this discussion, but I've got to weigh in on the horsepower 'issue'. I had a Jet SS which I had spent too much time & $$ on getting it debugged. It had a 1-3/4 HP motor in it, and had it not been for lousy dust collection design that I could not resolve without major mods, I would have been very happy with it once I got it in shape. I had gotten it adjusted to near perfect alignment. BTW, FYI, this IS a hybrid saw, and I can tell you all the guts were in a cabinet, yet the trunions were attached to the table top. I know, because I had to crawl into the @#$%! cabinet to adjust the motor to align the blade with the miter slots. That was no easy task, I'm here to say. But I digress. With modern blade tooth designs, I ripped 8/4 + maple to my hearts content with a dedicated Freud 24 tooth full kerf rip blade. Beautiful cuts with no evidence of inadequate power. Because of the worthless dust collection, I sold that saw and bought a true cabinet saw. At the time I was going to buy a 5 HP model. But when I calculated the power requirements, I didn't think I had adequate wiring in my home to support that much horsepower. My wiring in the wall was not heavy enough. I would have had to run a special circuit (which I could have) to support that saw. Given the positive experiences I had with the Freud full kerf rip blades, I decided that 3 HP was plenty adequate so long as I didn't let my blades get dull. The point of all this is...if you go with 5 HP, I don't believe average residential home wiring is heavy enough to deliver the amperage you need to get the full 5 HP to the spindle that is available from the motor, relying on the typical residential wiring. If you tried, you could potentially run the risk of starting a fire IMO ESPECIALLY if you have 14 gauge wiring instead of 12 gauge coming from the breaker, and that's assuming that you have a big enough breaker as well (> 20 Amps)...the older the home, the more likely it is that inadequate wire size could be a problem...In fact, it is because of this amperage issue, that I rewired ALL my stationary woodworking power machines to 220 volts to reduce the amperage requirements. That really helped reduce my shop power requirements, and my equipment all seems to run better as well...Jeff
if you go with 5 HP, I don't believe average residential home wiring is heavy enough to deliver the amperage you need to get the full 5 HP to the spindle that is available from the motor, relying on the typical residential wiring. If you tried, you could potentially run the risk of starting a fire IMO ESPECIALLY if you have 14 gauge wiring instead of 12 gauge coming from the breaker, and that's assuming that you have a big enough breaker as well (> 20 Amps)...
For clarification, I'm no electrician but I researched this before I ran a new 220v line for my 5hp Grizzly planer.
A 5 hp motor requires 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp breaker from what I understand.
Lee
That's correct. Most homes have 12 ga wiring in the walls at best. Many may have 14 gage. The larger the number, the smaller in diameter the wire, and the less amperage carrying capacity. It is the wiring in the walls between the outlet and the circuit breaker that is my concern.
If a person were to have an electrician run a dedicated circuit for the saw with 10 gage wiring from the circuit panel to the outlet, then having a 5 HP saw would not be a problem. If you go with 5 horsepower, it would be necessary to have this heavy circuit installed. That is what I'm trying to point out.
Jeff
"It is the wiring in the walls between the outlet and the circuit breaker that is my concern."
That's certainly a concern, but unless someone has really screwed up the circuit, it's not an issue in actual practice. If the wiring is 14 gauge, it will be backed up by a 15 A circuit breaker. If the wiring is 12 gauge, it will be backed up by a 20 A circuit breaker. In either case, if you ignore the directions and try to run your 5 HP saw on the circuit, it will likely start up just fine, and even cut fine much of the time. But if you really put a load on the saw, the circuit breaker will trip, and this will happen long before you develop 5 HP at the cut line. In other words, it will act like a 2 HP or 3 HP saw.
The only way you would create a situation that is actually dangerous is if you were to replace the stock 15 A or 20 A breaker with a 30 A breaker without upgrading the load (downstream) wiring, equivalent to the old trick of replacing a fuse with a penny.
-Steve
Steve, I'm not so sure said hypothetical saw would even start OK on that hypothetical circuit. Grizzly motor specs (which started this topic in this message) say 25 amps. I'm no electrical whiz, but during the recent shop upgrade, our electrician emphasized how much power a given motor draws during start-up, way above the motor plate listing. Hard to see a 20A circuit-breaker fairing well under repeated demands of a 25A motor.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Point taken, it is true the breaker should trip, and the breaker should, emphasis on 'should' be rated to the wiring in the wall. So long as the user doesn't try to change out the breaker going to a higher amperage breaker to 'fix' any breaker tripping issues, there should be no fire risk. OF course, the assumption is...the breaker is working properly.Just for grins, I would add a comment that tripping electrical breakers from the motor startup surge is especially troublesome when working in cold weather. My old compressor ran fine all year except in winter, when it wouldn't start because of constantly tripping the breaker...My apologies to everyone for this 'fire drill', I may have added unnecessary confusion to this thread with my comments...I guess I may be overly sensitive to electrically sourced risk of fire in a woodshop.Jeff
Edited 1/16/2008 1:48 pm by jeff100
Jeff,I appreciate your concerns and wish more (not just woodworkers) were electrically conscious. I'm getting there, I think; the trick is to stay interested, stay respectful, and keep learning after others have lost interest and just do what they feel they can justify (to whom?). Today I started rough wiring a house I helped build. Speaking of circuit breakers . . . the whole site is off of a 15A, then extension cord to multiple tools. We can run two or three 15A tools without that breaker tripping, and I've noticed this tendency at other job sites. So I think there really must be a big difference between startup current, normal running current, and heavy load currrent. Seem to remember that breakers can take a larger load for only a certain time before they trip, being designed to prevent CONTINUOUS load over capacity. I don't know if this would make a 5hp act like a 2or3hp tablesaw, as the other contributor said. Smaller saws don't keep shutting off mid cut when the breaker trips! Maybe it was just a loose analogy. Just thinking aloud (a good way to draw unblinking criticism here . . . ). Anyway it sounds like your setup is all good. Have fun! Brian.
Every circuit breaker has what's called a "trip curve." It defines how long the breaker will pass a given overload before tripping. Of course, there are manufactuing variations, so rather than a single value, the trip curve specifies a range. The full-load current consumption of a 5 HP motor is about 21 A. The starting current is typically 5-7 times that. Using the trip curve for a Square-D QO-series breaker (because I happen to have one of those breakers sitting on my desk--don't ask), we can see that a 20 A breaker would be very unlikely to trip on startup of the motor--you'd have to have both a worst-case breaker and a worst-case motor. On a 15 A circuit, things get a bit more dicey--you'd probably have about a 50-50 chance of tripping in that case.
-Steve
Jeff,
Sorry, I must have misunderstood. I thought you were recommending 14 ga wire.
Cheers,
Lee
No sir, I hate seeing the use of 14 ga wire in residential homes. That is one of my pet peeves with residential construction. My fear is we will see more and more of this in new construction with the spiraling of copper prices on the commodities market.Regards, Jeff
"I hate seeing the use of 14 ga wire in residential homes."
As opposed to non-residential homes? ;-)
I really don't see that this is much of an issue. As long as the electricians or whoever is doing the wiring follow the rules, there is no safety hazard. Yes, it's nice to be able to plug in all kinds of stuff and have it all running at the same time, but realistically, how often do people trip breakers? Do you really need to run your hair dryer and vacuum cleaner on the same circuit at the same time?
-Steve
If all the work is done by licensed electrician, then you are right, there is not much risk, if any. Unfortunately, not all work is done by licensed electricians, sad to say, even in new construction, and there in lies the potential trouble. As example, the house I own now I bought three years ago. It is 40 years old. The breaker box was full, no room for additional breakers, so several breakers in the panel had been 'double tapped', e.g. additional circuits added in a previous remodel wired in without adding additional breakers for them. Very illegal, yet it was done all the same.In fact, where I live, it is legal for a unlicensed home owner to do their own electrical work (I do). The legal requirement is to get an electrical permit and have the work inspected, which I do. But obviously not everybody does follow through with the permit and inspections. Whoever double tapped the breakers in the home I bought, didn't bother with the permit and inspections either. I HOPE they put the right sized wire in the wall for the breaker on the circuit.Jeff
Edited 1/16/2008 3:39 pm by jeff100
never seen a 3, let alone 5hp, not already 220...
Looks like a Shark Guard and a CMT ripper in that setup too!
Afternoon KS...
"
39461.27 in reply to 39461.25
Looks like a Shark Guard and a CMT ripper in that setup too"! .. KS
Close as the design is basically as Lee's excellent Shark guard. I cut my own splitter from a steel plate (at least my BIL who is a shop foreman at Delta Air Lines in the machine shop did) is the same configuration of the stock splitter.
I added the Euro style "crown guard" which is made from a scrap piece of hard-wood. A splitter protects from stock that already cut from pinching or rebounding off the long fence on most TS's. It does not guard against stock that can be launched upward. That's what the crown guard does as crown mean "up".
The shield is the same as the one sold by Penn State for their over-head guard and dust pick-up. I purchased it as a separate component and modified the shape on my small BS to a better flowing arc to allow the stock moving into it to raise it easily so it passes under the crown.
I put slots in the splitter so I can move the crown up and down to keep it close to the blade regardless of if you are ripping 4/4 or 12/4. I used quick release bolts and T handles so I can remove it very quickly. I also replaced the stock bolts on the Uni-saw that secures the splitter with star handles bolts using shorter threads. That allows me to get the whole guard off or replace it under 30 seconds.
And yep.. the blade is a CMT 24 T ripping blade and stays on the saw. I use the TS almost exclusively to rip with the 12" SCMS and it's home-made retractable extensions that telescope to accommodate 16' stock getting the call on all cross-cutting from rough coming in the shop to final cuts ready to assemble.
Sarge..
Edited 1/12/2008 2:31 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Jamie:"to get the blade brake into a large number of hands."?Actually, I thought the idea was to keep the blade OUT of a large number of hands.Cheers!Joe
Adastra001,
Due to ownership of a Sears contractor saw that is impossible to crank over to 45 degrees, I am currently looking for a new table saw. I have been very interested in buying one with the newer safety features such as a riving knife. However, I haven't found any information on them except for your post. You mention that Jet (one of the brands I am seriously considering) will soon offer hybrids with riving knifes. Are you sure of this? If I thought I could purchase one of their Proshop saws with a riving knife, I would definitely wait to make the purchase. How did you find this out?
I e-mailed Jet customer service and that was their response, later in the year.I haven't investigated but Steel City is supposed to have a riving knife on their hybrid soon.Grizzly has "contractor" saw with a riving knife. But its a contractor in name only. Essentially a hybrid without the full sheet metal base.So there are options that will be coming on the market.
The Steel City hybrid with riving knife should be out very soon. It is the one that has a granite top as stock, but it can be ordered with a cast iron top, which is what I would prefer. As soon as it hits a Puget Sound store I'm going to check it out.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, I for one am thrilled you've asked this question. It's been eating at me for sure.
http://woodworkingplans.org/products/10-2-HP-Contractor-Style-Table-Saw-with-riving-knife/G0661
Some information on the new Grizzly "Contractor". I guess since it doesn't have a cabinet style enclosure. Thats about all that separates it from "hybrids".
This saw now goes on the list for consideration.
How close are you to Bellingham? Could be worth a look.
Mmmmmm, gonna have to pass on that one. Looks like table-mounted trunnions. No info on how the 45° and 90° stops adjust, but most like the old-fashioned, crawl-into-the-cavern approach, which I'm gettin' way too old to do! and I find it almost impossible to get the just right on the saw I have now.
"How close are you to Bellingham? Could be worth a look." I think it takes about 3 hours, including the ferry ride over to Seattle or Edmonds. Haven't been up there for a couple of years, but if Grizzly ends up in the top running, I'll shimmy on up there and lay on hands, LOL.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/9/2008 2:01 am by forestgirl
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