The Handtool forum is running a little slow – this may interest some.
Below is a link to a review of Andrew Lunn’s carcase saw.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/EccentricToolworksCarcaseSaw.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Interesting test. Thanks.
When you speak with Mr. Lunn again you might want to say it would be great to have more pics on his site. For example there is a scalloped brass back for the back saws ( just bellow "Full Sized Rip and Crosscut Handsaws " but there is no pic showing a full view of a saw. Nice work ! Might unbalance the saw though.
Glad he pays most of his attention to how the saw teeth are filed. Seems the most important point especially for a novice purchaser who doesn't know how a properly filed saw should cut/feel.
Some will say this is not a novice league saw. I would have payed this much to buy this saw when i was learning. The less expensive saws I wound up with were less than adequate.
I am still a novice, of coarse, and now that I can sharpen a saw to cut the way I want it to and have several all tuned up now I probably would not spend the bucks for this saw.
Novices: If you are cutting dovetails in high end projects buy a good saw like this one and save yourselves a bunch of time and frustration. If it cuts the way it is presented here, and I am sure it does, it is worth the bucks. Be sure he will re-sharpen it until you can gradually learn how though.
Sure most of you handtool people can take a piece of junk saw and file it to saw right but for the person trying to learn they cannot. Until they pay their dues and even then I bet there are allot of people who just do not "get" metal working and do not want to spend their limited time when they could be cutting wood.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Derek,
Yes it is slow on this forum. Maybe a discussion on "d" steels is in order (vs. A's and O's) or perhaps more on the long awaited MW Kenyon DT. vs, Andrew Lunn's DT. A little bird told me shipping is about to commence on the Kenyon if not already started. Don't tell FWW or there will have to be the "Ultimate DT Shootout". Adria's, Nielsen's, Wenzloff's, Lunn's, LV's, lions and tigers and bears, Oh my!
Watching glue dry on the coast.
Boiler
You got to wonder if the premium price of the Lunn saw may cause an increase in pricing of the other premium saw makers although LN just introduced a short panel saw, and I believe it is priced at $225.
T.Z.
Tony,Perhaps.
Some random thoughts.Some of the makers have established to themselves the worth of their saw - what they need to get out of it for the work they put in. Some as to the buying capacity of the market, others as to a reasonable markup over cost of business and yet still others use the price point to imply the perception of added value. Then we have the question of price set for the allowances of the collector or the more pedestrian budgets of a user - a woodworker. I doubt the profit percentage is identical for any.
I doubt if any base their product against a mass produced Borg unit and then simple add a 20X price factor.
Some saws are of course also, in a limited sense, mass produced or in an assembly line manner but this aspect does not alter the marketing of that saw. Indeed, a $225 saw from one maker who produces in the thousands does not necessarily balance against the more "one-off" or "few -off" makers at the $325 price point.For example a Holtley Plane. Are they worth that much to the buyer? Obviously- he sells them, but is it more the case of competitive price or as to what he needs to make a living relative to the time it takes him to make it, or is the price completely unrelated to the general market? Does price dictate a Great saw or does it reflect an Elegant AND a Great saw?All of these factors may well lead to increase pricing.
We may be on our way to a international "saw price gap war". Bodies everywhere :-)Many years from now, after we are gone, the then owners of "The Best Tools" will list the best saws for sale but as to the winner - as the highlander said, "there can be only one". Who will it be? The most costly, the most produced, the most written about and hyped.....Boiler
Hi Boiler
There were issues that I did not wish to include in the review since they were not directly about the saw or its construction.
Andrew is the new guy on the block. He has enormous talent. He has given up a safe job and taken up the challenge of being a fulltime sawmaker. In an uncertain economic climate is he going to survive?
There is the matter of cost. I was fortunate to order this saw in December (hoping to get it for my birthday in January!). In February (I think) Andrew put up his prices. Now this is going to be interesting. I think his prices are realistic for the time he expends in making his saws ... but they are waaay more than anyone is used to paying for a custom saw. His prices are closer to a custom planemaker. OK not nearly as much but the analogy is correct. I paid $160 (plus $15 shipping). His new price on this saw is $360.
It depends how he can manage the pressure of turnover for livelihood. He was inundated with work after an article by Christopher Schwarz. Is that what happened to my tote? That he did not give it enough time? He assured me that he gave it his all. Actually he mentioned that he only completes about 4 saws each week. The market is still used to seeing LN and Wenzloff as expensive. I think that Mike is undercharging and relying on selling in quantity. The planemakers who undercharge (e.g. Steve Knight) struggle, while those that charge realistically for their time are more likely to succeed (e.g. S&S, Anderson). Is it time for sawmakers to emulate planemakers?I was OK paying $160 for this saw, but for $360 I would have expected much more. And that reflects that I also am struggling to reset my price expectations even though I believe that he has every right to charge for his time. I wonder how many saws Andrew is selling at the new price? Will he have to reset his target market and find a way to make them cheaper/faster?Regards from PerthDerek
Those of us who couldn't ever afford $360 for a saw might send him a dollar, just for the drool factor. Well, maybe $0.75, to cover the cost of the clean-up tissues. ;-)More seriously, I hope he does well. Folks like him who help to keep the tradition of hand-made tools alive are a treasure.
Derek,
With all due respect and admiration, I'm a tiny bit disappointed by this write up. I think my definition of "tool review" really doesn't fit anything you do. But I'm generally pleased with your in depth analyseseof tools I may never lay hands upon.
What I would like to see from you or someone else is the linking of specific features to performance and user experience. I've talked this but never written it. Joel has come closer than anyone.
A couple specifics:
I don't think the difference between .020" and .018" plate thicknesses is significant. There are 2 issues here: The tolerance on the plates is not always super tight and all saw makers sand their plates to polish them. I buy .020" sheet and I don't know what I ship (because I never measure). Second, there's an implication that the thinner plate will telegraph to a perceptible performance or user experience. I've tested countless hand saws over a 10 year period. What I've begrudgingly come to realize is that the user experience is primarily a function of the tooth geometry alone. Faster or slower cutting is all about tooth geometry, sharpness etc.
As to handles, woodworkers are going to shoot themselves in the foot over this issue. You just can't make a saw inexpensive with a handle that will please anyone 100% or everyone. For years, we've accepted the fact that all tools, especially hand tools, are essentially kits. Holding boutique saw makers to a JD Power type finish quality standard is a huge mistake. Raising consumer expectations by raving about handle fit and finish is going to either drive prices up (which will inevitably run sawmakers out of business) or it's going to drive sawmakers out of business who don't produce the prettiest handle.
My advice to you and my good friends at FWW is to do two things at once- First,let's cut the mumbo-jumbo about hand saw performance. This is simple science that every woodworker should know and that no magazine has documented (what am I doing???). You can absolutely choose a saw that will perform better for your style of sawing and your wood by closely examining a few objective attributes of the saw.
Ditto, the speed and smoothness of cut are totally sophmoric. Why do we care if a dt takes 4 strokes or five to complete. It's not like the speed of a car. You supply the effort either way. I could just as easily say that the saw that cuts slower requires less effort to push. In the case of smoothness, when do we ever leave a sawn surface visible? It it needs to get planed anyway, does the level of smoothness (between a 20ppi saw and a 15ppi) matter at all?
Second, let's shift our values away from handle polish by showing woodworkers precisely what you have shown; In an hour you can have whatever shaped handle you want. It's wood guys- and you are woodworkers. In a recent chat with Mike Wenz, he confirmed my experience that contrary to popular belief, the handle and not the teeth are the manhour tent pole; the single most time consuming part of building a hand saw.
When you evaluate planes, you look at performance of blades at different angles and in different woods. But we don't ever get that with the "DT saw shoot out" articles. In reality, saws are just fleets of tiny planes. The physics are similar, so why aren't the reviews?
Adam
Adam and Derek,
Boy, I almost hate posting a response for fear of really sounding like a total dummy! In both of Derek's posts and in Adam's post, I have seen value and well made points.
My opinion is sawing cannot be categorized into an easily quantifiable practice. Further, likes and dislikes of a saw change with time & experience with using that particular saw. I have a Tom Law sharpened Disston #16 that practically cuts the board for me. I have several 16s, that for all intents and purposes are identical except for who sharpened them and they are not used. I have a MW half back that is trying to imitate the Tom Law #16 by jumping out of the till ahead of the #16. As the MW gets a bit older and more experienced, he'll be winning the race (I've asked Mike Wenzloff to duplicate that Disston for me--Mike are you listening??).
We're getting more and more saw makers entering the market. Evidently there has to be money to be made unless these guys have taken a vow of poverty to the saw gods. I was intriqued with the new Lunn saw, but really put off by his huge price increase. Maybe his construction methods dictate that he needs this price to break even. The question remains, is his $360.00 saw that much better than the Adria, the LN, the Wenzloff, the Cherubini or a vintage saw set up by Daryl Weir? In the olden days, the market would determine the leader and ultimately the survivor. Markets don't take well to paying for inefficiencies in manufacturing. Markets care about the results. The question that begs to be asked then, is what is the market? Are we a market of users today or a bunch of lemmings lining up behind the review of every new tool that becomes available, more interested in the bling. I would be curious if Derek would have ordered the saw if the price was $360 and not $160.
In PWW what I find most interesting are Adam's Arts and Mysteries columns dealing with tools and methodologies, particularly the fact that we actually had cabinetmakers dealing with tools as tools. My Father was a carpenter and would not hesitate to alter a tool to do a job--afterall his pay was determined by completion of jobs.
In Derek's article, from my point of view as a hobbyist, I saw a succinct write-up of a new saw stating some likes and dislikes. I saw the write-up as complete enough for me to determine if I wanted to explore the purchase of a Lunn saw further. Using such a thin saw plate may bring some technical challenges to the saw's manufacture that may add to the saw's cost. But does the thin saw plate present the user any advantages? I'd be concerned about damaging such an expensive tool. I was intriqued with the progressive filing however, but this can be done on a saw plate similar to the other premium makers.
In conclusion, I really don't think we'll see any head to head saw comparisons as saw use is miles more subjective than a plane. Remember the outcry of Chris Gonchar's chisel article in FWW? How many guys will be offended because their $360 saw was not chosen as the current ticket to woodworking nirvana? I would also think it is easier to learn to use a bench plane and a chisel than it is to saw well. Finally, I'd be curious to see how many who have learned to saw well have also learned to sharpen and fettle their own tools.
Oh well, enough babbling as it is time to do battle once again with customers!
T.Z.
>if the price was $360Just for bizarro comparison:When a junior high kid I saved my lunch money and mooched so I could buy the best bicycle race tires in the world. What the pros were winning the European races on.Huge difference from the "affordable" tires, Speed, precision, very very much more durable and thinner/lighter all at the same time.They cost $25 each in the early seventies. That was seventy five cents a day saved up to get them. One little chunk of glass and that was all she wrote. I rarely damaged one and usually got the wear out of most all of them. Wheeeoohh !I could not "afford" these tires. I still found a way to buy them. I was very passionate about them and their performance.Those same tires are not available these days at any price. ( some one please make a big fat lier out of me ! I will send you chocolates every Christmas after. they were Clement brand and the model is Criterium Seta or Seta Extra. ) Seta is Italian for silk and yes the casing was made from real silk and rayon. Super strong super light.The closest thing to these tires now sell for around $175 each and are not as good. If I could get what I want i would pay the nut.That is $350 plus shipping for a few ounces of bicycle tires that would not last more than a year or so. Man I would be smiling for that year or so though ! ! ! A dollar a day if you will.My point is this saw will last a life time ( and more ) of smiling every time you use it. Seems like a steal compared to my silly tires. And after all we are passionate about wood working and our performance.PS: Hello Mr. Lunn !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/19/2009 12:52 am by roc
Roc honey:
As one roadie to another I like your comparison! I've been riding and racing the roads since the early 70's myself and rode Clement and Vittoria sewups for years, and I probably couldn't "afford" them either but they made the ride so sweet. Now a days I'm riding Continental clinchers and still pay as much for them as most folks do for car tires and you're right they last a year if I'm lucky, but the ride is so nice and when you're flying down a mountain road at 50 mph it's nice to know your tires are up to the task!
Bottom line? Be it saws, chisels, machinery or bicycle tires there is a vast difference between the run of the mill and the top of the line. I've run a custom furniture business the last 22 years and every cheap purchase in the end is made twice so the top of the line winds up being cheaper so why not start there? I've got a couple Lie Neilsen saws and they are hands down superior in everyway to the hardware store saws out there! I just read about Mr Lunn's saws in the current issue of Fine Tool Journal and as a professional I gotta say if his saw's will cut finer, faster more accurately then I will be in line one of these days!
Keep the shiny side up!
Madison
Madison,And just when I said "this is a woodworking forum" I go off on another jot myself: Did you ever ride any Track ? If so lends a new perspective on your alias "Madison".We have the Seven Eleven Velodrome here but it was always too much like work for my liking.I met Eddy Merckx here a couple of times during the 1986 Worlds here. He was here as an advisor to set up the course etc. He drank coffee out of my coffee cup while at my old shop. Haven't washed it since. ( haven't used it either ).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Merckx_any one who cares page down in wiki and click on the photo on the track bike ( gold and black shirted rider ) to enlarge. = World Hour Record in Mexico City 1972 ! ! ! !Just last year Jeannie Longo walked in and I helped her at the counter ! What a fine surprise. I didn't have any thing cool for her to autograph so I asked her to sign my Kindle.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannie_LongoMany years ago I saw her race in Boulder in a long crit course with a steepish long hill every lap. She rode the whole race off the front until the last few laps when she lapped the field and went off the front again for the win. The women around Boulder and Denver are no slouches and I am sure there were national caliber riders in the field.A breath taking race. Dangerous, fast, descent through city ninety degree corners after that climb. Serious bike handling and rider traffic. I was much impressed !Not showing off ( too much ) but it is rare to talk to someone who knows who the heck I am talking about.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/21/2009 2:07 am by roc
Roc:
Let's just say I've been on a track and leave it at that! Lots of crits and a few mind numbing road races. Met Greg Lamond the year he won the world championships and helped friends in Michigan with the Tour De Michigan Crit series two summers and hung with Alberto Gagioli and Laura, can't remember her last name. Lance was there as a junior too. Good time for sure.
Now a days I'm betting that through attrition one day I'll win my age group in the local time trials but there are all these other tough chicks my age that seem to think the same thing!
Now just so's we keep it wood working I saw an ad in Velo news this past week for wooden rims!
Enjoy,
Madison
>keep it wood workingI once saw a race in Denver where they trucked in a "board track" ( wood ) and held races on that.Pretty exciting ! The track was way shorter than the normal cement tracks and the banking was unbelievably steep! Falling on it you get burnt rather than road rash and some splinters to go with the dish.Not for me thanks.>Lance was there as a juniorSome how that is funny to think about. Fast as lightening though I bet.Take care.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/27/2009 12:30 am by roc
Roc,
Those portable wooden tracks were commonly used for six-day races in Yurp. These included many types of trackie events, including the Madisons and devil-take-the-hindmost as well as more conventional sprints and such. They moved from town-to-town and usually were most active when the road-racing season finished. There was always a long-term race over the six days, usually between teams of two.
The riders were often performing for hours and hours, to the point of exhaustion. The audience would change over the 24 hours of a day and also over the six days of the whole event. Some were cycling fans, others came merely to be excited by the circus tricks and atmosphere. There were often collections from the audience of money to offer as prizes in various ad-hoc races. The competition could be fierce for this cash, which engendered risk-taking, crashes skullduggery and maybe some accusatory fisticuffs.
In truth these events were more circus than bike race. However, they were regarded by professionals as both excellent off-season training and a means to pad the income. In the olden days there were no big-star salaries and sponsorship deals for professional cyclist, except for the odd Tour winner - maybe.
Maddy,
Do I detect a preference for time trials over proper racing about, in a bunch of wild-eyed straining folk who keep trying to accelerate away from your front wheel? I have done quite a bit of time trialing but it was hard not to get bored and fall asleep. :-)
But road racing! Ah, this is the stuff of fond memory - the tactics, suffering & grovelling; maybe even a placing or (on rare occassions) a win! I could sprint a bit, but used elbows and snarls as much as quadriceps. I could climb a bit and that was a happy coincidence of quads and geet big lungs - an ability eventually scuppered by the ladywife's cakes and pies.
In Blighty (and perhaps over there too) there are now "sportives" which seem to be a cross between road race, time trial and randonee. Everyone gets a number and there's a mass start but then the objective is to get around the well-marshalled route as fast as possible. The routes are generally over 100 miles and take in the steepest climbs in the district. The last one around here was 112 miles with 3800 metres of climb (about 12-13,000 feet).
So far I have just trained a bit for one, as my capacity for sufferin' & grovellin' seems to have been depleted by that same regime of good living forced on me by the ladywife. It's not just cakes and pies (which I nivver touch now, honest). No, there are many other comforts to weaken a lad's resolve to suffer.
Lataxe, just off to look in the fridge; and for a softer cushion.
PS Still, I've misplaced 18llbs of "personal cushioning" in the last 14 weeks; and got the average speed around the hilly training circuit up into the 20s mph (varies with the weather). However, the auld leg baulks at any real pain and the lower back just issues a flat, "No!" Decrepitude - curse of the sporting classes.
Edited 5/27/2009 4:35 am ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,
Great to hear you're becoming a stripling again! How much is 18 lbs in "stone?" I never could figure out what you guys were saying - "he's 13 stone - and beef to the heel."
Unlike your ascension, my athletic prowess seems to be pedaling backward these days. At long last I've had to face the facts that I can no long "lead" my usual Wednesday night ride from a position a quarter mile back on the road. So I've pluckily decided to start another ride. It'll be just a notch slower, to accommodate aging legs and lungs. We must compensate, mustn't we?
So, farewell to the Wednesday "Half Fast" ride. I leave that to my friend Matt Berner and his Bad Men. We're now the "Mere Mortals" group. Slightly slower, but no less feisty!
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
>a means to pad the income>collections from the audience of money to offer as prizes in various ad-hoc races. The competition could be fierce for this cash,So Lataxe,When I come to visit we can be a team for the sixes. I could use the income pad.>ladywife's cakes and pies.I AM having a great time on the couch with cakes right now so after reflectin on the opportunities at hand never mind about the roundy round. I don't want to endanger my couch sitin' form by any extraneous ( or strenuous ) bike racing activity. To work and back doesn't seem to do it any harm but more than that who knows. Probably not worth riskin' it.
Ya know how it is a bike racer who runs just aint going to be as keen as one who just rides.
Nah it has taken me some time to get to this level. The extra ballast does come in handy for planin' those big old planks.Awe the sacrifices I make for my woodworking . . .rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc:
They had a portable board track back in Michign owned by a guy in Sterling Heights and one day the whole thing came up missing! Police never did figure out what happened to it! I'd have loved to have seen that disappearing truck load by truck load discretely into the night.
I rode that one twice with some girl friends, we all bought used track bikes one summer because we thought we were young and tough, (tougher than the boys) well it didn't take long for me to decide that I really preferred the horizon to be horizontal. Still have my fixie though! It's kind of fun to take out with friends on the more rolling rides and listen to them freak because it has no brakes and no gears and no coasting.
Lataxe:
My love was crits first, and road racing second. But these days I stick with the time trials as one rarely crashes in a time trial and since my livelihood is dependent on my having two hands two feet and the ability to stand up all day long I figure it's a reasonable compromise.
Madison
Roc,
I see that Ed has managed to get his sport from ye. He is a naughty bloke and is perhaps "naturally sarcatic" because he is pining for that dead Di after having had her in his chopper once and possibly falling for the soppy creature, as maudlin' romantics were prone to do apparently.
Anyroadup, I feel that his de-meany-hour can only be improved by the addition (to his jog) of a couple of hundred miles a week on a bicycle, preferably having one of those 60s orange plastic saddles on it to take his mind off other issues, such as Di-pining. He will welcome the opportunity to honk, so let his routes be hilly.
*****
Is this the Clement seta replacement you mention?
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-components/2009-challenge-criterium-seta-extra-tubular-tire-5326.2127.0.html
If so, how do ye know it is inferior to the original?
When I first raced, in the late 70s, I foolishly got a set of wheels with tubs, as this was what them Tour-men and such rode. I was forgetting that a British amateur road race used only tatty backroads full of pothole, grit and hawthorns; also that there was no handy service car adorned with spare wheels and a mechanic to rush out as soon as one raised the mit signaling "puncture"! (Just as well, since it would have to have carried 147 spare wheels, given that a large proportion of the field punctured before the finish and would have done so again if they could have got that spare wheel on).
So, it was clinchers, which were somewhat ponderous at first but soon rose to the challenge. By the mid 80s there were plenty of decent tyre-tube combinations of around 300gms that were also reet tough. And rims to match.
In the early 80s even Clement produced a lightweight clincher, meant to emulate the qualities of their tubulars. In fact they not only punctured if someone gave them so much as a pointed look but also blew off the rim and even disintegrated in the sidewall should there be even the slightest wallop over the smallest pothole worthy of the name. Their white cotton sidewalls also picked up gritty dirt by the ton and so looked naff within the first 5 yards of a wet road, just before the bang.
The best racing clinchers I ever had were some kevlar-based Specialised ones of 180gms each, with 40gm AirB latex inner tubes. They also had exceptionally low rolling resistance and could be inflated up to 150psi. Their achilles heel was that they were lethal in the wet, disliking even a slight bit of lean or road camber, so that the happless velocipeder was soon slithering into the ditch or drystone wall.
I read that there are now tubeless clinchers in the offing, said to be very light, tough and inherently less prone to deflate even if pierced. Sounds like my kind of tyre.
Lataxe, nominating this thread "The Bicycle tyre discussion area" and just dying to know what tyres Ed favours. (Knobbly ballooners, probably).
>just dying to know what tyres Ed favours. (Knobbly ballooners, probably).<Ahem,...let me check, I've got an old "push-bike" around here somewheres, Lataxe. Okay, I've checked,...they appear to be rubber. And both flat at the moment. Does that help? Not much of a bicyclist, here.Actually it is a mountain bike and there are some good mountain bike trails around here, but I prefer running - more like mano a mano with the earth itself without a lot of contraption in the way. Also if you lift and run, you exercise almost every muscle. When I was a kid, we lived on top of bicycles in my neighborhood, but once they began to let us operate motor vehicles within the austere watchful eye of the law enforcement framework, the bicycle instantly became obsolete.I'm done with this thread - it's the kind of thing that you develop a very vigorous argument for one day and it seems pretty silly the next. Also, there are some woodworkers I've met in real life who lurk here but hardly ever post, and one of them sort of tapped me on the shoulder (via telephone) and said, "You know this whole saw sharpening thing,...it doesn't really matter. Not in the big scheme of things. It's like K-bodies versus pipe clamps - if you spend your time arguing about it on knots, you would never get anything done." I am a writer and I only stop and hit knots and post something when I'm stuck. I'm done with knots for a while, too. I am traveling to Montana in 3 weeks and after that, perhaps more travel in the summer. I will be back in the fall. Have a good summer.Oh lastly - Princess Di - also flew with Dick Cheney, Arsenio Hall (talk show host), and Jesse Jackson (politician), as passengers in my helicopters at various times and going back and forth to various aircraft carriers. A squadronmate drew the President Clinton assignment one time in Japan. The knots guy asked for something interesting and I just dug something out. Didn't know it had to be about woodworking. Take care. EH"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Hey Laytaxe !,That's the stuff !I will look into these. My reservation with "replacements" that I have seen in the past is the useless protective strip that they always seem to have to install and promote. It just adds weight and slows down the casing response to the changing road surface during cornering. The tread area as well as the side wall should be highly supple.As far as tubular durability my regular training rought went around a power plant road and a good stretch of it was dirt. Also the town could easily qualify for the goat head thorn capital of the world. The silks never bulged ; ran them at 120 PSI. The Hutchisons would bulge on onLy smooth pavement with less than a hundred PSI. To get them to not bulge I had to run pressures of 75 PSI. That is silly !Yes thin/light wire on ( Kevlar on ? ) tires are light and decent but the rims to resist the uncontained forces must be way heavier. Part of the advantage for me is the light rim allowed by the self contained tubular tire just perched on the rim.These you brought to my attention are very close to the mark. Silk and all ! I will investigate further and see what I can see.Thank you !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
“let's cut the mumbo-jumbo about hand saw performance. This is simple science that every woodworker should know”
<!----><!----> <!---->
Well said!!
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
I'm not a particularly confrontational type of guy, but I'm going to say something here just because I feel I need to. First of all, Derek has said some things in this thread that he did not say to my face, and I don't appreciate that sort of thing. It's not a very courteous way to conduct oneself.Secondly, I disagree with Adam that .018" and .020" are not effectively different. The difference is not huge, but it is a difference I can feel. Otherwise I wouldn't bother making a carcase saw with .018" plate--it's more trouble to make them that way. And yes the plate may be a bit thinner than that. I don't measure either. But in any case I find that all else being equal, the thinner plate is going to feel a bit better. And I find the way a saw feels in use to be important. Sure the speed you gain is small, but I don't think it's really about the speed--people cut joinery by hand because they enjoy it, and the way a saw feels in use contributes to that enjoyment.Andrew
Your saws are beautiful. If I didn't have too many already, I'd definitely be in line.
I do like a thinner plate. I bought the Gramercy (Joel's) kit. He uses a thin plate, and I've really come to dig it.
One word of advice: you can't afford to have a thin skin; make the best saws you can and let them speak for themselves. Look at how Tom Lie Nielsen or Rob Lee or Mike Wenz etc. take it when folks talk. Take it in, but don't let it eat you up.
.002" makes a differenceOoop here we go again. That is just my ecco coming back from a year or so ago. Don't worry. It, .002", makes a difference to some. Lets just say it is OK to be "some" or not to be " some ". It is hard to be "some" some of the time once one has become "some". If you know what I mean.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Hi Andrew
I did reply to your email privately and have explained my comments. As Sean has said, I think it is a case of you being overly sensitive and missing all the fine things that I, and others, have said about your saw. Far from being a negative review, I see it as pretty positive. The fact is that I wrote what I saw and experienced as objectively as I could. This is how I write.
Here is a summary of the discussion so far. It is worth re-reading ..
Roc noted:
Glad he pays most of his attention to how the saw teeth are filed. Seems the most important point especially for a novice purchaser who doesn't know how a properly filed saw should cut/feel.<!----><!----><!---->
Some will say this is not a novice league saw. I would have payed this much to buy this saw when i was learning. The less expensive saws I wound up with were less than adequate.<!----><!---->
Tony added:
You got to wonder if the premium price of the Lunn saw may cause an increase in pricing of the other premium saw makers<!----><!---->
Boiler made this point:
Some of the makers have established to themselves the worth of their saw - what they need to get out of it for the work they put in.<!----><!---->
At this point I shared my thoughts ..
I think his prices are realistic for the time he expends in making his saws ... but they are waaay more than anyone is used to paying for a custom saw.<!----><!---->
I was OK paying $160 for this saw, but for $360 I would have expected much more. And that reflects that I also am struggling to reset my price expectations even though I believe that he has every right to charge for his time.<!----><!---->
Adam commented:
I don't think the difference between .020" and .018" plate thicknesses is significant…<!----><!---->
…You just can't make a saw inexpensive with a handle that will please anyone 100% or everyone. For years, we've accepted the fact that all tools, especially hand tools, are essentially kits. <!----><!---->
And Tony repeated my thoughts ..
I was intriqued with the new Lunn saw, but really put off by his huge price increase. Maybe his construction methods dictate that he needs this price to break even. The question remains, is his $360.00 saw that much better than the Adria, the LN, the Wenzloff, the Cherubini or a vintage saw set up by Daryl Weir? In the olden days, the market would determine the leader and ultimately the survivor. Markets don't take well to paying for inefficiencies in manufacturing. Markets care about the results. The question that begs to be asked then, is what is the market? Are we a market of users today or a bunch of lemmings lining up behind the review of every new tool that becomes available, more interested in the bling. I would be curious if Derek would have ordered the saw if the price was $360 and not $160.<!----><!---->
Now there are two issues for debate: the need to work on the tote, and the new cost of your saws.
I feel it is also worth repeating what I wrote to you: As Adam (and now Philip as well) has said it is difficult to get a tote perfectly right first time, and as I noted in my review, the mods did not bother me. They may, however, bother someone who lacks the skills to do the work I did.
Secondly, my opinion is that your work is worth $360 - however the psychological acceptance of this, that is, bridging the gap between $160 and $360, is something I am having to digest as much as anyone else. I think $360 is fair and the price for custom work should have been put up to this at least two years ago. However the mind still says "you should get more for $360 than for $160" - that is not a statement of what is actually there (i.e. of what I received from you).
Tony asked whether I would buy at $360 (that is USD Philip)? As I stated above, I am still coming to terms with this. However I consider that it is a fair price for your time (if anything, it is still low!). If you charged the rates of a plumber or electrician, the saw would be double or triple that. So to answer the question, yes I would buy another - not at this time (I am broke!) but in the future. Count on it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,WIth all due respect, here is the problem that I, and perhaps others, am having.You wrote: "I was OK paying $160 for this saw, but for $360 I would have expected much more."But then you wrote: "Secondly, my opinion is that your work is worth $360..."These two statements cannot both be true unless we try to split semantic hairs.It appears that you are trying to write an honest review while at the same time trying to be politically correct. To be fair, we see this a lot in reviews these days, and that can make it very difficult for the reader to determine what is actually being said.Just an outsider's opinion.
Edited 5/19/2009 8:34 am ET by jhard
Hi
Is anyone else thinking that I have been ambiguous?
jhard, if you quote me, then include all I wrote ..
"I was OK paying $160 for this saw, but for $360 I would have expected much more. And that reflects that I also am struggling to reset my price expectations even though I believe that he has every right to charge for his time."
I have already restated and rephrased the same message a few times. In short, I was saying that I expect buyers to be progressively more exacting as a price increases, even if the new price just reflects inflation.
Later I wrote (repeating a message to Andrew): "Secondly, my opinion is that your work is worth $360 - however the psychological acceptance of this, that is, bridging the gap between $160 and $360, is something I am having to digest as much as anyone else. I think $360 is fair and the price for custom work should have been put up to this at least two years ago. However the mind still says "you should get more for $360 than for $160" - that is not a statement of what is actually there (i.e. of what I received from you)."
I am sorry if what I wrote earlier was unclear, but my intended message has been consistent, at least it has to me.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Reviews are a difficult thing to do without leaving the prints of ones bias on the subject; as such I hold them more as a personal opinion then fact but still one need to restrict personal interpolations into the result to be creditable.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Actually, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to criticism or something like that. I let most things in most discussions slide, in fact. The tools I make are very personal work for me, and they involve a lot of personal interaction between myself and the customer. Usually that is a really terrific part of the whole thing. I felt that Derek had crossed the line by saying things here that he hadn't said to me personally, imagining somehow that I would like to participate in a public debate about my prices. If that were something I was inclined to do, I've certainly had opportunities to do it by now, don't you think? My prices are quite fair for the work I am doing; to charge less would mean doing less. Derek got the same for $160 as he would have for $370 simply because he got more for $160 than anybody should reasonably expect to get for that price. The fact that he had some quibbles with the tote, that is by its very fact legitimate--what can you say? I stand by my work 100% and would have gladly adjusted the tote for him. Every tote feels terrific to me when it leaves the shop, or it doesn't leave the shop. I actually don't think it is too much to ask that a custom saw have a super nice tote, and I tailor fit them as best I can. I used to send a prototype poplar tote to every customer in order to get a baseline of feedback that I would then adjust. I likely will go back to doing that, as it most certainly would have caught the things that Derek had a problem with.Andrew
Andrew
Not only do I think that you are overreacting, but I think that you have the wrong end of the stick.
Firstly, I was pretty positive in my review - where someone else may have reacted differently - and the cost issue only surfaced here, not in the review. In this regard, I did not raise the issue (Tony did). I did respond, but if anything I have consistently been supportive of the new prices. Where have you read me complaining about price? The reason your recent price increase has become a factor of interest is because it is significantly more than anyone else. I have stated throughout that I consider all custom saws to be underpriced, and I am curious how the public will react when everyone eventually follows your lead and puts up their prices.
Please explain how I have gone behind your back. This thread is the stuff that forums are made of. Either join in and stand up for your principles, or accept what is said. Many will discuss the topic anyway.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Mr. Lunn, it appears to me, quite simply would liked to have dealt with you as a customer and allowed him to recitify any concerns about your purchase instead of reading about shortcomings in an online "review."
It's clear you've never run a business that makes an actual product for sale to a consumer.
Mr. Lunn makes a more or less custom product on a low-volume basis and stands ready to rectify any issues an end user might discover so the points you raised in your review are moot.
Further, if anybody is contemplating buying one of his saws I would urge them to contact Lunn directly to discuss requirements and expectations.
Derek, I'd like to know what you thought about a dovetail saw after cutting the dovetails for, say, ten drawers, but I know at your current rate of production you'd have to live to be 130 before you ever got there.
Your reviews seem to be valid for guys who cut a lot of test material whilst maintaining the scintillating pace of completing two relatively simple projects a year.
If I were just starting out on a construction crew I'd ask advice from the guy who knew how to hammer a nail, not some 'dude' that showed up the same day as me with brand-new everything - titanium hammer and a $600 set of leather Oxxy bags who, relatively speaking, had a few doghouses under his belt.
Edited 5/20/2009 7:43 am ET by BossCrunk
Actually Charles, I had exchanged a few emails with Andrew over the tote. He was "present" through the modifications, and pronounced his approval of them. I asked him if I could publish this, and he agreed. If he had not, I would have just filed it all away. I only post reviews that I think others will find interesting. There is a lot of interest in Andrew's saws, and for good reason, since they are extremely made and have a novel element about which many are curious. My "review" was to take others along the path I travelled, noting the positive exchanges Andrew and I had, and that the transaction had been quite straightforward. The fact that modifications were needed did not change this. As I stated in the review and in this thread, this did not present as a problem to me, I had complete confidence in Andrew's willingness to do the necessary changes (as part of the custom service his offers), but I chose to do them myself. Either way I have a quality saw and, regardless of Andrew's reaction here, I would still recommend him to all.
You, on the other hand, simply like to stir up conflict. I very much doubt that you have Andrew's best interest at heart. You are not one to be constructive. You live to be destructive. Here you are just acting opportunistically once again. The leopard does not change its spots.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Does all this really matter? What started as an attempt to generate activity on the forum has turned out, again, as an attempt to save face by one or more parties. But more interesting is that you been the common denominator of a number of similar discussions in the past. But now you have a responsibility to the Fine Woodworking Magazine and should keep this in mind when posting on this forum.
<!----><!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
>since they are extremely made and have a novel element about which many are curious.<What's that, Derek? I read your review and there was a lot of info about pricing and what not, and how you wanted the tote to be, etc. - but I missed the "novel element."Is it that the plate is .002" thinner? Is it that there is a slightly different style of carving on the tote? Is it that one split nut is slightly larger and is a medallion with engraving? Is that the novel element?Enlighten us further. You imply at many points that you speak for many people ("about which many are curious"), etc.Was the novel element "tool hype" or were those just throwaway words? Now I'm curious.
I missed the "novel element."
Well Ed, read again ... perhaps you missed "What is special about this saw"...
There are others that consider Andrew's saws special. Christopher Schwarz has stated as much ..
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Andrew+Lunns+Supertuned+Dovetail+Saws.aspx
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Metate+In+Middle+America.aspx
I know my curiosity was pricked enough to order a saw for myself.
Regards from Perth
Derek
name dropping is the novel element?>I know my curiosity was pricked enough to order a saw for myself.<But that doesn't tell me much. I look at your review and see three different dovetail saws and then in my mind's eye I think of you as the guy with the backwards dovetailed drawers on his website. The guy shining up a plane blade so he could use it like a mirror. The guy doing the photo sequence of pulling the Veritas block plane out of the plane sock a little at a time and posting that all over the internet.I need a little more to work with other than name dropping and "I bought one" as the novel element. It's a saw. What is the novel element? Surely your gavelled moderator status will allow you to answer my question?
Ed
None of this is in the least constructive or even about Andrew's saw. I am sure by now you are the only one reading your posts.
Go on ... I'll let you find the final word ..
Regards from Perth
Derek
$5 Tenon Saw
No claims made as to novelty - design has been around for quite a number of years.
Remaining $355 donated to charitable cause.
Note: Use of this tool does not require reading a review.
View Image"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Derek, you might have had something of value to report if you had determined, on an objective basis, that Lunn was either unwilling or incapable of making the 'tote' to your (or anybody else's) specification.
In your opinion, is this the case? If not then what exactly is your point - that it just so happened the tote was not made to your specification or liking? Or did you simply perceive an opportunity to show us all that you have acquired the skill of rounding off edges with rasps and files?
While your review did have some nice things to say, your livelihood neither depends on the use of tools nor their manufacture. When very small boutique makers are involved perhaps you might take the high road, keep quiet, and let the marketplace sort it out without your input. The only thing you appear to have at stake is some strange need for internet guru status via your tool reviews. Not so for Lunn and others.
Edited 5/21/2009 6:42 am ET by BossCrunk
Hi Ed,
I'm uncertain why there is a reluctance to answer your questions. I feel they are the heart of the matter.
It pains me to see the crap in this thread concerning Andrew's work. Heck, perhaps the thread altogether in some ways. Andrew is a good man, does good work, and I consider him a friend. So take the following in that light.
I am not speaking for Andrew here, rather with a degree of ignorance concerning your questions. Mostly I am writing with a degree ignoarance because I am uncertain what Derek means by "novel." But also because I do not desire to mistate these issues by relying on my faulty memory from when I have spoke with Andrew in the past.
So with those caveats out of the way, if I were to pick but three things concerning Andrew's DT saw as things that stand out to me as different than many Western DT saws, it would be the thin saw plate (Schwarz's is 0.015"), the weight (not a heavy saw), but most important would be the saw filing. Andrew does a bit of progressive rake and or fleam, though I do not know whether this applies to the DT saws as well as the larger saws.
Derek's saw is a cross cut carcass saw with a slightly thicker saw plate than the DT of Schwarz's. While some may not feel a difference between 0.018" and 0.020", there is one. A two thou difference in kerf width may not seem like much (assuming two saws with the same amount of set, the only difference being the two thou plate thickness), but it can make a "feel" difference. Whether this matters to anyone or not, it is there.
I personally believe there is more an issue of plate thickness as regards rip-filed saws. But there is a difference.
Again, those are mostly mechanical and "feel" issues. Care in setting the teeth probably mean more. Andrew hammer sets (iirc). I am not certain it matters in the end, but the care he takes would matter. Whether a saw is set with a plier type set or by hand hammer setting, the end goal is to have even tips at the widest point in the kerf. Difficult to do regardless of the method. Stoning is fine to a point. Overdone it makes the saw work harder.
So, a lame attempt at answers that probably do not help you. For that I apologize.
Take care, Mike
Thanks Mike.This: >I personally believe there is more an issue of plate thickness as regards rip-filed saws. But there is a difference.<is actually something that is useful to me. I have some rip-filed bow saws with thin "plates," or the equivalent of thin plates and I suspected this to be the case.I hope the best for the toolmaker as well. Too much of Derek playing footsie with the world of tool hype for years on end occasionally brings out an instinct to hold him accountable for his words."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
His curiousity was *prick*ed? Must have been some sort of Freudian slip.
Have fun.
>His curiousity was *prick*ed? Must have been some sort of Freudian slip.<Just a British/ Australian speech thing. They are forever getting their conscience, curiosity, memory, etc., pricked.
Lataxe will probably be along shortly - there will surely be some aspect of his mental equilibrium that's pricked.
Congrats on the kid. She's beautiful. Finally a photo posted of your masterpiece,..."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome DoveEdit to add: Surely as I speak, there he is. In the time I took to write that, he arrives,...
Edited 5/20/2009 3:12 pm by EdHarrison
Eduward,
"Lataxe will probably be along shortly - there will surely be some aspect of his mental equilibrium that's pricked".
Yes, this thread certainly has a couple of prickers in it. ;-/
How do they get so pointy and pokey? I believes they have dipped their tiny heads too often in the jar whilst supping up vitriol, so that the action of the acid has worn their little bonces to a point. It also seems to have soaked further-in and shrivelled the organ that normally thinks into a small walnut-like thang which can only now ooze unpleasant stuff redolent of [that's enough of the acid-based analogies - the Taunton prose monitor].
Lataxe, a teaser of [what did I just say! - the monitor].
Ha! Thought that might get a response.
Well, what's this forum thing good for if you can't express an opinion or three.
Honey, sweetness and light, oil upon the water, political correctness and chick-music like Diana Krall are all overrated, unless you're trying to get [censored].I tend to naturally speak in a sarcastic, dry humor manner. Sometimes it comes across as a little harsh. I can't do a Mel - I never use the phrase "Nyuk nyuk nyuk."BTW, that Hayrake table is looking pretty cool. Think it will be sturdy enough?Good luck to you this summer as you get into more carving. See, not all vitriol? I do reserve it for special occasions."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Edited 5/20/2009 11:49 pm by EdHarrison
If he's willing to make the necessary changes and modifications to suit each customer then why would I care about the saw he made for you?
It appears that you truncated the process anyway.
I have actually become used to saws with the cheesy flats still on them (think Crown, et al.) so I might just as likely order one from Lunn and tell him not to worry too much about the handle. I wrap mine in upholsterer's foam anyway - just like I do my jack plane and my scrubber. I have arthritis in my right hand and I need a larger handle. I also use arthritic grips on my golf clubs.
Edited 5/20/2009 1:29 pm ET by BossCrunk
Mr L,
Your saws are very nice looking. That information from Derek, a chap one may trust to thoroughly explore a high quality hand tool, would be good enough for me to make a choice as to whether to buy one or not in terms of its function and quality.
But you know what? It costs too much. You may claim it's a fair price. I will counterclaim that it it's beyond my personal price-point of the law on the diminishing returns graph. Sadly for you, a "fair price" is the one that the customer is willing to pay, not necessarily the one you think you deserve.
We customers are not here to support your saw-making hobby tha knows, however worthy a saw you may produce. After all, there are other saws in the market that (functionally speaking) are likely to perform just as well.
If the market doesn't like your price then you will have to drop it or give up making saws that require you to charge so much to make a business viable. Or stop making saws as a business and make them as a labour of love.
Is this not the dilemma for all those who seek to make then market tools to the highest standards? The motive to seek those high standards suffers interference from the economic motives that emerge when they are made a commodity. At bottom, do you want to make the best possible saw or make money? The two might be mutually exclusive.
Lataxe
Edited 5/19/2009 2:58 pm ET by Lataxe
Damn Lataxe,
You said it far better than I tried to! I will consult with Our Lordship, Mr. Mel, to see if we can bestow upon you the title of "Most Esteemed Wordsmith".
T.Z.
-L
If there are enough folks out there who can afford Hotley planes to keep him in business, I'm guessing Mr. Lunn may have a sufficent group of buyers.
I'm not sure those buyers really are woodworkers, but you might know better than I as you have a fair stable of Marcou's, eh? I feel like if I had a Hotley or the like, I wouldn't use it day to day with my sweaty - sometimes glue smeared - fingers all over it as I try to hack my hobbiest way through some wood. I might feel the same about a $370 dovetail saw. Sort of like I wouldn't want to drive my Lambourgini Diabolo to the supermarket in the rain, but instead would be likely to hop in my beat up 200000 mile Honda. Dunno? What do you think, do i just have an inferiority complex that I want tools that strike a balance between being fine and so fine that I'm afraid to muck them up through use? Maybe Derek could give me counseling? ;-)
So anyway, maybe there is a collector's niche. Folks who love fine tools in and of themselves, but only for threoretical use. Think of those fantastic emony and ivory plough planes and such. Those were made as presentation pieces, not for the workaday world. They are like faberge eggs - for the display case, not the frying pan.
And, Frank, cut the guy a break. Being rough around the edges doesn't seem to have shortened Larry's wait list any. ;-)
Query, if you have a wait list that is several years long, should you think about raising your prices until the list becomes manageable? Calcibrating the price to temper demand? Like in that Maloof thread or Curtis Buchanan's Windsors or Clark and Williams hollows & rounds. Dunno, but it might be a sign you aren't charging enough?
- S
>I'm not sure those buyers really are woodworkers<My theory is that they are old men worried about their own mortality. Other than the "mistress" aspect of collecting things, it's the only reason why people buy super-expensive collectable stuff. My theory, anyway. I'm a writer, I've got a million of them.I'm with you, though,. go easy on the toolmaker. He's probably reading "Guerilla Marketing" or something and it says he should get involved in these internet forums, and then he runs into the "Premium Tool Payola Pundit from Perth" (sorry Derek, I just could not resist - sometimes I can't help myself - toss that gavel at me if you wish - per Mel's suggestion I got a dollar sign you can replace it with), who says one thing in his review, another on "knots" and then rationalizes himself like only a psyche guy can do, probably knowing that his darling status among the knots regulars is as well established as the FWW warehouse clearance sale.Ah well, all in good fun,...my own personal theory is that a saw is a saw is a saw. It's all about how it is sharpened. And the handles are made of wood, which, since I am a woodworker with a full set of carving tools and rasps, files, sandpaper and various others things, I can pretty much adjust to suit myself. Last thoughts for toolmaker - the engraving is weak - cheesy-looking. Looks like it was done at the one-hour photo booth at the mall, sandwiched in between the high schooler's promise ring and the Fossil retirement watch. Amp that part of it up a little bit. I'm not even a tool collector and I could tell,...Good luck, Ed"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
"Query, if you have a wait list that is several years long, should you think about raising your prices until the list becomes manageable?"
I often feel that some of the prices should be raised. I don't know why they don't. A select few seem to be leaving some profit on the table. Maybe they feel like they couldn't charge more. Maybe they feel like they shouldn't charge more. Maybe they have a better grasp on their business than I have on their business. A year is a long time for anything.
Regardless, I've sat in at least one of these lines before. The whole time I thought along the lines of "I should just call this guy and offer $xxx to be bumped up in line?" I didn't. I just felt it wasn't worth being turned down. I assumed this would happen because it's probably a pretty bad reputation to acquire with such products.
On a side note, it's funny that the conversation turned to the money involved on a boutique tool that wasn't a gift. I thought Derek was challenging of the price. (Let the record show that I didn't sit down with Webster and the Chicago Manual of Style to go through his post word by word and sentence by sentence. That was my impression.)No representation without taxation
- L
An another thing .... ;-)
I will counterclaim that it it's beyond my personal price-point of the law on the diminishing returns graph.
I didn't think you correlated such things to returns, exactly. You say: "there are other saws in the market that (functionally speaking) are likely to perform just as well." Come come, and there are not cheaper planes that perform just as well as .... and cheaper chisels that perform just as well as ... Function can't be the relevant touchstone alone, but merely a baseline requisite.
But really what I wanted to mention is that over on SawMillCreek, I saw a thread about Cosman offering a dovetail saw with a "plastic" (it may be some other form of bakelite or some such, but it ain't wood and it's definitely synthetic) handle for $250! Make an Lunn with a real wood handle and finely etched brass seem quite a steal, if you asked me.
I'm getting to the point where I'm kind shaking my head about the quest for saw Nirvana. Kind of like planes, one you reach a certain level, decent function is pretty much a given if the user is experienced. I guess there a lot of folks onthe up slope of the handcut dovetail curve where the saws still look like the answer to the question. To those fellows, I say this with all due respect: Guys, the saw won't cut the dovetails by itself, and once you can cut them, the saw you're holding won't matter much either.
Sean,
I see I need to send you a Marcou so as you'll git the bug. Too bad, I need em all, all in my shed, with me!
That graph describing the diminishing law of return (price agin'....well, function, inherent quality and dare we mention beauty) seems to vary between people, the objects they desire, the time of day, the colour of the clouds....
We're definitely not rational when we make tool-buying decisions (or any other kind of decisions) so why worry? However, I have taken agin that expensive saw so I needed an excuse to spurn it. The high price will do. :-)
****
Now, when is a clever marketeer going to make state-of-the-art saw blades with purfek sharpening and sell them to us with a small bit of paper describing how to make the handle? I mean, as a another wag mentioned somewhere in the thread, we are all woodworkers, innit? And it will only take a half an hour or so to make that blade. :-O
I mean, what will I do if I drop me Wenzloff again and this time it breaks the handle?
Lataxe, who has come to believe his furniture is worth thousands as it takes so long to make. I really must stop giving it away for nuthin. (No I musn't).
when is a clever marketeer going to make state-of-the-art saw blades with purfek sharpening and sell them to us with a small bit of paper describing how to make the handle?
I don't know if you said this tongue in cheek or seriously, but Joel Moskowitz does:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-DKIT.XX&Category_Code=CGT
And I think Mr. Wenz does too.
I use my Gramercy most of the time in fact:
View Image
Sean,
No not said tongue in cheek really; rather an aside to remind us all that such a purchase method is, as you say, available and perhaps an option all high-end makers might like to offer. I didn't know that the Gramercy offerd a kit but I was aware that Mike did.
It does seem very relevant if a large portion of the price of a top-end saw is due to the maker taking lots of time with the handle. The higher the price the more the option of a self-made handle becomes attractive, therefore. I would struggle to make a Wenzloff or Lund blade but a tote would be within my scope, expecially if given advice concerning the ergonomics, fit to the blade etc..
Strangely, this is what Derek ended up doing.
That Gramercy, for example, looks a real bargain at the make-it-yourself option price, if the reviews of its finished qualities and function are anything to go on.
***
Now, how much can I get that Philip to knock off a plane "kit" in which I must make ny own knob and tote. :-)
Lataxe
"Now, how much can I get that Philip to knock off a plane "kit" in which I must make ny own knob and tote. "
Ai yi yi , boy, the making of knob and handle is the hard part....Philip Marcou
Then there's the Cosman fretsaw. Looks like one of those $15 Zonas. Stick some genyooine Canadian hockey tape on the handle, throw in a couple of blades, and charge $40. Man's a genius.
Jim
"over on SawMillCreek, I saw a thread about Cosman offering a dovetail saw with a "plastic" (it may be some other form of bakelite or some such, but it ain't wood and it's definitely synthetic) handle for $250!"Saw (no pun) that also. It's for the new breed of carpenter / woodworker - the ones that buy those silver flaming Day-Glo orange / chartreuse impact drivers. Asked at Western tool who buys that stuff?- they said it's all the apprentices that just turned 20.Is there a sale none of us know about on .018” to .02 steel? We can now all make scrapers but use new stuff instead of old rusty Dissons. Napie- you hear that?Boiler
Guys, the saw won't cut the dovetails by itself, and once you can cut them, the saw you're holding won't matter much either.
Samson,
This is probably the wisest statement mentioned in this whole thread, at least to me.
I also don't think that anyone willing to part with $360 or $370 for a hand saw is going to base that decision on anything that Derek has to say, but I could be wrong about that as well.
However, I'm pretty sure that it's a bad idea for the sawmaker in question in this thread to come on here with an attitude and expect to win over new fans. Alot could be learned from paying attention to how Mike Wenzloff conducts himself on this, and other, forums. The guy has a huge backlog because he makes a terrific saw (so I'm told, I can't find one available yet!!!) AND he's a gem of a guy. Frankly, I can't imagine any sawmaker that I'd rather ship my money to.
I'd rather overpay by $100 to a guy like Mike than underpay by the same amount to guy I can't imagine liking. First images are hard to put aside, don't you think?
Jeff
I think Andrew is talented and makes fine saws. I think he is following his heart and doing what he loves. I wish him the best of luck.
He may need to learn some hard lessons of business, but I'm not gong to hold it against him that he is still working some of that out.
I agree about Mike.
Life is a learning experience, of course. If I ran my business(es) (2) as well 20 years ago as I do today, I might be fishing right now instead of working. Everyone has to go through that.
My rhetorical comments were simply meant to let this obviously talented young man named Andrew know to relax his comments, especially on a public forum. Many people could construde his comments as a negative impression on him. I personally would like to believe that he takes a tremendous amount of pride in the excellent work he is producing, and wants to defend it tooth and nail.
Does anybody out there think that a positive review from Derek has something to do with the sales success of a product? I sure hope not. That would be a shame.
Jeff
>Does anybody out there think that a positive review from Derek has something to do with the sales success of a product? <
<!----><!----> <!---->
No one person is that powerful even if they believe themselves to be.
Andrew,Since we have you here; do you accept your saws back for resharpening when they get dull and or to modify the tooth configuration for, say, very hard wood ?That was a deal breaker for me when I was considering a top of the line saw maker. I was considering buying a pair of 14" backsaws, rip and crosscut, from a maker but he refused to take them back for sharpening and wanted me to ship them to an unknown (to me) in the states. As much as he trusted them; I could not bring myself to trust them as much as I would the original maker. I wound up purchasing two LNs and re configured them myself for very hard wood. One of them I bought, a 10t rip, and filed it crosscut so I could get a coarser cross cut than offered in the catalog. (scary but glad I learned )do you accept your saws back for resharpening ?thanksrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/19/2009 6:19 pm by roc
You want the guy who you bought the saw from to sharpen it for you every time it needs sharpening? I'm trying to wrap my brain around that and just not getting there. About six or seven years ago I called up Tom Law (the guy that did the saw sharpening video sold in various hand tool retail outlets around the USA) to ask about sending my L-N dovetail saw to him to be sharpened. He said to send it, but somewhere in the course of the conversation he told me that the L-N dovetail saw could usually be made to be sharper than it was when brand new. For some reason, a sort of mental flashbulb went off at that point and I realized I needed to learn how to do it myself.Now it seems like the same thing as knowing how to tune a guitar before you play it. I can't imagine calling up the folks at Fender and saying you know, I've got this Stratocaster that you sold me through the custom shop there at Fender USA. Can you tune it for me so I can play it? I mean, I'm sure they would if I gave them enough money, but eventually they'd say something like,..".You know we put these nice Kluson tuning pegs and tuning machines on there, and we've checked them out - they're working as advertised - you really COULD learn to tune it yerself, if you wanted to. It's not rocket science."Your thoughts, roc? Tell me what I'm missing here. It has been a little slow in hand tool country, lately. Time to get a good debate going. Keep in mind that back in the days before 'lectricity, trim carpenters would have a box full of handsaws and they would tend to sharpen them on some regular schedule, like at the end of the day (from what I've read)."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
The guys at Home Depot told me saws today is impulse hardened with special phasers, and ain't meant to be resharpened. They said it would take a lots of sticks of two bye to really dull one though, so you don't need to buy a new one too often.
Sometimes, when I get ready to travel forty days in the desert and climb the rocky face of the mountain in order to seek the true wisdom, I think of the experts at Home Depot. Just like Buddhist priests, they wear orange.
Yeah but it' really a shocker to climb to the top of the mountain with the great question and see a vest!
All that is left is the valley of despair.
>you want the guy who you bought the saw from to sharpen it for you every time it needs sharpening? yep>I'm trying to wrap my brain around that and just not getting there.yepSome one who sharpens saws everyday and built the saw to perform a certain way will obviously be much better at sharpening the saw than someone who sharpens a couple of saws a year and vastly different saws at that.And since we are using the musical instrument analogy; I bet Diana Krall doesn't tune the piano she will be playing that evening. She has a professional tuner do it.More fun to spend the day eating french pastry and touring Paris than spend the day in an empty hall slaving over a cranky Steinway.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqGuFfeAdgw&feature=PlayList&p=12A3106892EBAFB9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2(: )PS: Anthony Wilson on GuitarrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/20/2009 12:53 am by roc
Hi roc
Thanks for the Diana Krall link. I have that CD. It is one of my favourites. It puts a different perspective on her music when yiou see her and the others in person. Just superb!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Resolves to an argument for outsourcing any part of the process that is the least bit challenging. That wouldn't work for me, but it would work for a lot of folks here.
>resolves to an argument for outsourcing any part of the process that is the least bit challenging.<Grumpy old uncle Ed,I have a challenge for you . . .Say something that has these three elements:
• interesting
• positive
• helpfulSo you don't strain your delicate constitution perhaps it is too much to ask that you combine them so perhaps one at a time to start.Some how I get the idea that you are going off on me, and others, because you believe I/we won't take the time to learn to sharpen a saw. You seem to have a short memory at least in my case. To refresh your memory allow me to repeat a couple of statements I have posted in this thread early on :>I can sharpen a saw to cut the way I want it to and have several all tuned up now. I probably would not spend the bucks for this saw.<>Be sure he will re-sharpen it until you can gradually learn how though.<encouraging others to learn eventually>I wound up purchasing two LNs and re configured them myself for very hard wood. One of them I bought, a 10t rip, I refiled to crosscut so I could get a coarser cross cut than offered in the catalog. (scary but glad I learned )<I still think there is someone in this world that can do a better job of sharpening a saw than i and would probably take off less metal in the process so I would still prefer to have the maker do it if better at it than I.Under the heading of an interesting response you could include some of the prolific production that you are insinuating that you are capable of year in and year out in addition to the time you have spent mining the metals to forge your tools your self just before you cold role the steel to form your saws. Surely you do not leave such things to professionals when no doubt you could do it all easier and quicker your self. You must be one busy beaver ! dear old grumpy uncle Ed . . . it is your serverocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 5/20/2009 10:10 pm by roc
Edited 5/20/2009 10:14 pm by roc
Interesting: I once flew a helicopter with Princess Diana as a passenger.
Positive: The Atlanta Braves are a game over .500 tonight.
Helpful: You really shouldn't worry about French pastries so much unless you run about 25 miles per week, like I do. That stuff will clog your arteries. One (helpful) word for you, Roc: oatmeal.Now shoo away - I only verbally joust with people who are intelligent. Also I like to see some detectable element of humor in the other person's posts. Simple name-calling doesn't seem worth dealing with.A challenge for you: Think about some detectable element of humor in your posts. Just having a workbench made out of purpleheart (though I will admit that that is sublimely ridiculous) - is not enough. And one last thing: I really haven't really followed your personal saw saga. I simply resolved your argument to its logical conclusion the way you had it written. Not my fault if it bothers you. Can you resolve it a different way? I think we're done here."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
>Di, helicopters, Brave men in Atlanta, running, arteriole dietetics . . .Aaaahhhh Ed . . . this is a woodworking forum. Try to keep up. Pictures ??? projects . . . OK your wood pile then . . .Well there waaas the five dollar saw. Looks kind of lumpy. Teeth are waay too fine for the length to get any serious work out of it.>only verbally joust with people who are intelligent.The way you've been going to town seems you think you are the only one of that rank here.Why are you still here ?>25 miles per week. I used to run that far in a day, through the mountains of Colorado. With my girl fren. Gave it up 'cause it got too easy.: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/21/2009 12:34 am by roc
Ahhh.. while waiting for finish to dry and the ringing of power to clear my ears I read this entire thread. Nothing like the calm and quiet of hand tools and hand tool users to insure tranquility for the evening. I am at peace within now so.... after a restful nights sleep I will be ready for another day of roaring noise.. vibration and dealing with the non-ergonomic tote on my trusty Anant.
Maybe I will take off the duct tape on the tote and carve on the handle a bit.. that might just be the assist I need to lead me to the "promised land". :>)
Ya'll have fun tomorrow....
Sarge..
"My prices are quite fair for the work I am doing; to charge less would mean doing less."
Andrew - It's important for yo to remember that the internet woodworkers forums are disproportionately populated by individuals that are, well, cheap. They really do think that a Lie Nielsen hand plane is a high-end, high-priced tool. However goofy that view is, it would be best as a maker to simply not discuss it.
Like a custom furniture maker, your business will be much better off if you charge what you need to charge, and don't justify it or apologize for it.
Derek,As an author, I know how difficult it can be to put thoughts into words and convey explicit meanings, and it is even harder to see the the various meanings of our own words because we know exactly what we meant, irrespective of whether we said that in a manner for others to understand or not.It is my very humble opinion that if your statements had been written by someone else, you would have no trouble seeing the dichotomies they convey.But that's just my opinions, I could be wrong.
I may have read Derek's post differently than you did and fail to understand your post. I don't see where Derek was less than positive and fair in his write-up.
Perhaps the issue is a bit deeper than the words in this Knot thread. Opinions may have been tainted (for the lack of a better word) by the earlier review of Andrew's saws on Chris Swartz's blog at the earlier price. Chris then edited his earlier post with updated pricing. IIRC, there were a more than a few questioning the magnitude of the increase.
In Andrew's response, he mentioned at one time he supplied poplar mock-ups of the handle to customers as an assist in custom fitting the handle. This was the first I heard of that and there would definitely be value (and cost) for that step. Maybe a better explanation of the costs as well as the custom steps and differences between his saws and those of the other high end makers would be adviseable?
I do have to say, as an owner of a manufacturing plant, in the end the customer does not care how I get to the end product, as long as the end product meets or exceeds their cost and quality expectations. Please explain to me how I justify to Ford or Toyota my need to charge $20.00 for a widget, that Ford or Toyota can purchase for $10.00 in identical conditions, from XYZ company? It is not the customer's fault if I need to charge $20.00 because I don't own a modern CNC machine like XYZ company and I must manually machine each part. My extra labor costs do not add value to the product. However, in Andrew's case the supply of the poplar mock-up handle may add value and be a justification for a higher sell point.
In my hometown, in 2003, a "pizza buffet" restaurant opened up, with all you could eat and drink (soda) for $3.95. This was one he_l of a bargain and the place was packed. They easily could have charge close to double that amount, but I don't know the reasoning for the initial lower price. After about six months or so, they raised the price to $5.95, and even though the price was still a good deal, people stopped going there and by the time the next six months passed, they closed their doors for the lack of customers.
I wish Andrew Lunn well, but I would also suggest he tell his story, with the story being what his saws are, how they are different and the steps he takes to build them. Sort of, you know, marketing? Andrew should also note that these forums are probably one of his best and lowest cost advertising mediums. I for one would like to learn more about the progressive pitch of the saw and exactly how it is done.
T.Z.
I don't think that you will be in business long if your post is typical of your response to feedback.
Unless you had an agreement with Derek that he would give you editorial approval for any pubic statements IMO it might be a good idea to post an apology to him & the group.
Derek,
I assume you are talking Australian dollars? If so, then $360 is not an outrageous price (about US$270) for a fine tool like that which will no doubt last a life time plus. Ofcourse, if you have no money, then $36.00 would be too much, but for people grossing in the thousands per month then it is not-if you want a good tool.
The handle shaping thing seems strange and I would like to hear what Andrew has to say . I can understand how these things happen, too, having sent a couple of planes to David Charlesworth once upon a time which had (minor) shortcomings.
I am surprised that folk appear not to understand that the time consuming work and effort is in the handle. There are machines which can churn them out but these would not be available or justifiable to small volume guys-and hand finishing still is needed.Philip Marcou
Don't forget:
-Mel making an authoratative accusation that is well beyond necessary and way out of line.
Didn't you spend your career working for the government? What businesses have you started? why did it succeed? why did it fail?
Matt, employee, not employer
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled