Thanks to all that responded to my post about the shoulder plane. I have decided on the Veritas. I think it will be a good size for my use and I like the set screw adjustment system. With the difference in price I’m thinking or ordering an Anant bullnose for 40 bucks. These two are still cheaper than the Clifton at $250.00.
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Replies
MB,
Congratualtions on your LV plane. You'll enjoy using it.
I'd think twice about the Anant: I've tuned a couple of them in the past for a hand plane demo at the local Woodcraft. Neither the Anant nor the Groz were very well made. The machining tolerances --if you can call them that -- were not very tight, and the steel quality/heat treatment on the iron was very poor (it would not hold an edge). If you decide to get one, expect to spend a considerable amount of time and effort tuning it up; you'll probably also have to replace the iron.
(The only Anant plane that I have found to be reasonably satisfactory is their copy of the Stanley #78/Record #778; not bad, but nothing to get excited about either.....)
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Aside from James' view of the Anant/Groz planes [which I mostly share], consider whether you really need a bullnose plane.
I have a beautiful old Preston bullnose, which the Record and then Cliftons are based upon. I have only used it out of need on a dozen pieces in 6 years. I have used it more, but in situations I could have used a different plane.
Take care, Mike
MB CAB, as a gentelman I have trouble trying to properly express my evaluation of my Anant combination plane (aka STANLEY #45) or my Anant #78 (not to be confused with my Record #778) but they are totaly and absolutely pieces of SH*T.
Better that you starved your children to buy a quality removable front rebbat plane from ANY quality maker than buy an ANANT at any price. No one here would think ill of you.
Also, the need for the bull nose is rare and a deft cut with a sharp chisel usually will satisfy.
I would be very pleased to know that you "got the message". All the best, Paddy
Ok , I'll buy no Anant tools. As I have no children to starve I will look at the options.
Why not look on ebay for a decent Stanley or something similar? I haven't been looking lately but I bought some there for pretty good prices and had no bad experiences.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I have a cheap stanley bullnose, I can't remember the no. but it has no blade adjustment screw. Also I have looked at a new 92 but was not impressed with the quality at over 100 bucks. I have a vintage 78 that works great, but I think the Veritas will be a better size for most of my work. The bullnose is not a high priority.
Edited 1/4/2007 5:26 pm ET by mbcabinetmaker
Edited 1/4/2007 5:27 pm ET by mbcabinetmaker
I have several of the veritas planes and I can tell you they are wonderfull planes.take a close look at the low angle block plane with the toe and heal add ons while your at it. I think lee valley and veritas together make a great teem.
Hello Alan23
I have a few ?'s concerning planes. Low angle block vs low angle bench
I"ve been reading up on the LV planes. The Low angle LV bench planes.. the frog extends all the way to the sole for complete balde suppport which reduces chatter and allows for quick adjustment of the mouth without removing the lever cap or anything else. All you do is loosen a pair of screws and dial the desired opening with the thumb wheel. Are the LOW ANGLE BLOCK planes made the same way.. do they have those features?????
Not sure if you're familiar with LN planes. #5 1/2 Bench plane.. heavy smoother, often called a jack plane by some so I've been told.. mind you I don't own any LN tools. This 14" beauty is long and heavy enough to do a good job on shooting board and not too big to use as a smoother on the bench...
Would the LV #5 1/4W bench plane perform as well as the LN #5 1/2 (Is it equivalent to the LN) Because the LV planes are a lot less expensive than the LN.
Starting out what planes would the average weekend woodworker need? (for someone who builds mostly small pieces of furniture. What are the most necessary planes to own?
Wanda
sorrey I didn't get back to you,the low angle block plane has the same features as the others make a point of getting the new handle and knob set for it this will give you much better control.
I would think that a lot of people are in citations similar to mine. I really do not care one way or the other who makes my hand planes. I care that they work. And being as I am just getting into this whole hand plane business and being as it is a complicated subject. I tend to be a bit shy about buying a used tool over EBAY this is hard for people that know what they are doing to make sure they get what they want and when you add in that a lot of us are not sure what we really want.... It is harder still. I think that I look at LN and Verities and such because I know that they make a good tool and that when I get it I can spend minimal time trying to make it work right and thus lower the chances of screwing it up. And if you are trying to use a plane that is not set up right to learn on, well forget it.
It is a catch 22. I need to learn what I am doing but I need to know what to do in order to make sure that I get a good tool and then to set it up correctly. I have been reading about planes for a while now and using them a bit, but in truth I would not be able to tell you (for the most part) what a good plane on ebay is vs a bad one. And don't even get me started on cost.
So I think that is why a lot of people stick with the better known modern companies, even when they may cost more. It is more of a sure thing.
Doug Meyer
My experience with hand planes before coming to Knots, etc was with the Craftsman #4 and block planes my dad had. Someone got the #4 when we had the estate sale before I could put it away but I never had any luck with it and he only used it for a few jobs where pine doors needed to be planed. After that, it just sat around for a long time. Knowing what I do now and the fact that it was in the box and was dead mint, it would have been a good one to keep. (Choir of angels, please)Then, I came here and saw all of the people saying how great their planes are, how they sharpen them and can plane curly maple without tearout and how they restore them. I made the decision to buy more but not after learning as much as possible about them. I found a couple at antique stores, cleaned them up, bought a honing guide and learned more about how to get more out of them. I started looking at them on ebay and found out what to look for, recent values (and what would be a great deal), learned more about hand planing techniques and practiced. My #7 cost me about $70 and the most I paid for any other is $40. My #4 was $25 and I use it the most.I did replace the original iron from my #7 as much to have a spare as to see how much better a Lie-Nielsen iron would be. The iron on my #4 isn't going anywhere. I just flattened a curly maple board that was like a flattened W because of the non-linear shape. Sure, I worked up a bit of a sweat but that was a really nice little workout, the board is flat on one face, the other is almost flat (I'm going to resaw it to make a guitar body) and there is no tearout at all. My ear plugs stayed in my pocket, the workout did me a lot of good, the board is flat and I didn't need to fix any tearouts from my jointer or planer. I don't know if it would have done this but I assume that they would be deep enough that I would lose more wood than I planed off. If the plane on ebay has all or most of its parts, isn't cracked, is relatively flat-soled and the cheeks are pretty close to square to the sole and isn't very expensive, it's a decent deal if it doesn't need a month of work and you're willing to do what it requires to get it working. Covered in rust? No big deal- there have been many threads on removing it. Pitted sole? No big deal, as long as you can make it relatively flat and the mouth is good. Parts missing? They're available all over and they aren't expensive. I definitely don't think the plane has to be cost a lot, I think it needs to be set up correctly but it also needs to be made well enough to allow for some small degree of accuracy. Don't get me wrong, I think that some of the new planes are beautifully made and the accuracy, attention to detail, the look and I would assume that the feel are all impressive. I can't justify the expense but having one of Philip's planes would be great. The information is out there to learn about them, in every aspect from what they are, how they work, how to restore them, how much they cost to buy used. Buying a used on on ebay can be used to learn more about them and you can stop after the first one if you want.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Just like motorcycles I have resisted buying any multi-hundred dollar planes. I'm sure they are wonderful, and all that.But I can't get it out of my head that the guys that made all that great 18th century furniture (generally considered to the be the best ever made in America) used home-made hand planes and did just fine.It is my opinion, not humble, that it is the woodworker's skill that requires more tuning and not the price of the hand plane. I'm certain that is the case with me.pins
Like I said before, I tuned up my $25 #4 and planed that curly maple with no tearouts at all, with, against or across the grain. I have tried the L-N #4 at the WoodWorking Shows and I know it planes better, feels better and more substantial and definitely looks better but mine works and I agree that the person using the tool can make do with something if needed but still get the desired results. There are probably thousands of items out there that were made with a knife because that's all the person had, but still do what they needed. With care, someone could make a table and set of chairs with a knife. It's wouldn't be easy but it is possible. Tools are designed to make an operation easier and/or provide better results. I golf and bought my clubs off the rack. I worked with someone who liked to spend close to $1000 on his (in the mid-'90s) and brag about it. I asked what he normally shot (at the time) and he said "about mid 90s". Right there, the argument that buying really expensive clubs will make someone a great golfer is dead. He may have been better than before but I would not call shooting in the 90s great golf. I used to average about 80 with my off-the-rack clubs. No fancy shoes, balls, tees, bracelet. meditation, hat or custom fitting. I also used to putt like Stevie Wonder but could still shoot in the mid-80s for 18 holes (shot an 85 with 46 putts). Tools are tools- the results are up to the user but I think that good tools make it easier to do some things because you don't need to fight the tool to get it to work. One thing that drives me absolutely nuts is having to repair a tool just to use it. Tuning or honing because of wear is different but if that gets in the way, something has to change for me to want to use that tool and if it's a matter of getting more blades, bits or something like that, I don't really mind as long as I can get the work done.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I also used to putt like Stevie Wonder but could still shoot in the mid-80s for 18 holes (shot an 85 with 46 putts).
holy crow! do you think you could learn to put with one of those planes? you seem pretty good with those. perhaps the #4, i've heard that word on the course more than a time or two.
I may try to attach a putter shaft to a #4- it's couldn't hurt. Actually, my putting problems are past me now. And, now that I can putt, I don't get to golf as often as I would like.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Actually, my putting problems are past me now. And, now that I can putt, I don't get to golf as often as I would like.
too bad, with the putting licked and shooting in the 80's before it sounds like you'd be headed into the 70's. i've only been there a few times myself.
I golfed with a friend last summer and when he commented on the fact that he doesn't usually golf with people who putt that well, I asked who he was talking about, since I actually didn't putt all that well.Part of the change has to do with the fact that I stopped trying to be a big stud by getting on the green in two or three, being about as far from the cup as I can be and still on the green. If I'm off the green, I can chip it close enough for a one putt in most cases and two putts for the rest. Compared to three putts from 60', I can save one or two strokes per hole that isn't just a par three or normal par four. Most par fours are a drive and short iron and most par fives are drive, fairway wood(metal) or long iron and chip. Basically, it's just better course management. My driver isn't the king of my clubs anymore and if using an iron off the tee makes sense, that's what I use. Better to be where I want than just hit it long and lose it, go OB or into the deep rough and woods. Hitting it really long just means that I can lose the ball better.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Here's an update- I had mentioned jointing the edges and flattening/smoothing that piece of hard curly maple. I'm making a new top for a workbench that I bought from a friend, that had been used at Milwaukee Boy's Tech High School and since I needed to joint the edges of the 6/4 boards, I figured I would use my 6"x47" powered jointer instead of doing it by hand. I had the knives sharpened and tried it again, just to make sure it was still cutting as well as the last time. Normal straight grained maple, no problem. That piece of curly- tore the crap out of the edge even when I was only taking off about 1/16". That curl didn't like it at all. Not really a problem since I need to get rid of the live edge but holy WAH! It tore out a lot worse than I would have thought. Now, I'll have to re-joint with the #7 to get it to look good again. Old hand plane 1, powered jointer 0.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Even in the 18th century, the planes were largely made by specialist plane makers, not be the individual cabinetmakers. Many, but by no means all, came from Britain. (I'll take any Cesar Chelor plane off your hands if you run across one at a tag sale.)
The cabinet makers labored under no handicap at all from their wooden planes. My very best smoother is closely patterned after 18th century examples, and will handle exotic figured woods as well as any metal plane. It's a Clark and Williams. (I don't have a Norris infill for comparison, though)
Steve,
If you have a Cesar Chelor plane I would very much like to see a picture of it: I have not heard of that name.
Or, where can I see one?Philip Marcou
No, I don't have one. They are 18th. century planes made by Chelor who was the slave of planemaker Francis Nicholson (1683-1753) until he was freed at Nicholson's death. Nicholson is the (or one of the) earliest documented planemaker in the North American colonies. Google on the name, and you'll find a lot of info, including a number of museums with the planes in their collections.
Edited 1/5/2007 10:36 am ET by SteveSchoene
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