Replies

1. 
   jimmyk | Aug 25, 2003 05:37pm | #1

   Windows slide open and shut, cabinet doors SLAM shut so they're more likely to break. Always use tempered glass. Giant shards of glass raining down on some poor kid that slammed the cabinet would not be a good thing.

1. 
   ccampbell | Aug 25, 2003 05:44pm | #2

   So I should tell this person that I used the wrong kind of glass and eat the cost of the materials already used, and try to convince her to pay for the tempered glass?

   What would you guys do?

1. 
   jimmyk | Aug 25, 2003 10:16pm | #4

   If the glass is already installed, you can tell the customer that you made a mistake and ask him what he wants done.  If he says it's ok as is, have him sign a disclaimer saying you're not responsible for any personal injuries since he's aware of the issue yet willing to leave it alone.

   What would you guys do?

   I'd demand that I replace it myself with tempered of laminated glass free of charge and I'd learn from this mistake and never let it happen again. I think replacing the glass with safety glass is cheaper than a lawsuit and I'd sleep better at night.

   Good luck!

1. 
   gecko | Aug 26, 2003 02:27am | #9

   There is no way you as a builder can be held liable for a glass door breaking. As another poster pointed out it is exceeding difficult to break an ordinary piece of glass, even with a hammer. Code does not specify that tempered glass be used in kitchen cabinet doors, nor should it. There is nothing to worry about using regular glass. I've installed hundreds of them, and never once had a call back. Even my glass manufacturer recommends regular glass.

    

   Being held liable for injuries stemming from a cabinet doors glass breaking is like suing the window company if you get injured jumping through a closed window. People know not to slam cabinet doors with that kind of force, just as they know not to jump through a closed window.

2. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Aug 25, 2003 06:29pm | #3

   I wouldn't worry about using untempered glass.  Glass is really pretty tough stuff.    Recently I built some multi-light cabinet doors.   I built a prototype to test out how I was going to retain the glass in the door.   At the end of the project, I removed the glass from the prototype and cut up the wood for kindling.   To remove the glass, I held the door in the trash barrel and hit the glass with a hammer.  I expected that a tap would shatter the glass.   I hit it with increasing force without breaking glass.  I finally turned the hammer around and hit the glass with the pointy end to break the glass, and I had to hit it pretty hard.

   I was using ordinary single-strength window glass.

   If advice from an anonymous guy on the net doesn't remove your worries, try an experiment.   Build a door in the same way you did the doors that you delivered.  Try to break the glass.   I think you'll be reassured.

   Just as an aside about windows, they're mostly built out of ordinary single-strength untempered glass.   There are a few exceptions -- near doors, near the floor, and near bath-tubs.   The rest are just plain ol' glass, and we live them every day of out lives.

3. 
   swines | Aug 26, 2003 12:29am | #5

   For windows in houses you're supposed to use tempered glass wherever someone could be injured by falling through the glass.  For example, near a bathtub, or any place where the glass is within 14-inches (if I remember correctly) of the floor to prevent small children from being injured.

   I don't know whether that includes cabinet work.  You might want to check with the local building code people (plan check), I'm sure they can tell you.   While tempered glass may be more expensive, it would certainly be a cheap insurance policy should a child fall into a glass cabinet door front located near floor level.

4. 
   Westchester | Aug 26, 2003 01:09am | #6

   It is always a really big issue when you do something for someone else even if money doesn't change hands for the service.  -  I would suggest you lean toward the safest possible solution - also check the codes as someone mentioned.

   Regards,

   SA

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Aug 26, 2003 01:32am | #7

   C'mon, guys, the sky is not falling.   Common untempered glass is used all around you.  It just isn't that hazardous.

   Tempered glass is marked with a symbol etched into it with acid.   You can find an example on shower doors and on sliding glass doors.   My safety glasses even have it.  However, you aren't likely to find that mark elsewhere -- not on most windows, and not on glass cabinet doors with wood frames.  Take a look at furniture in showrooms, and at kitchen cabinets in showrooms.  It is rarely tempered.

1. 
   DaveHeinlein | Aug 26, 2003 02:13am | #8

   Building codes in my area(NY) dictate that any glass 18" or lower, will be tempered(not laminated). Also any commercial application. That's what required, so that's what I do. I've never had a problem with breakage.

   Generaly, upper cabinets are the only glazed doors you will have, far above a child's reach, where adults are the only people using them. If you think the adults can't keep from breaking the glass, maybe you *should* use tempered. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry.

5. 
   Clay | Aug 26, 2003 02:41am | #10

   Standard UBC requirements are that for glass panes that are >9 square feet of area with bottom edge <18" above floor, & top edge>36" above floor; the glass must be tempered.  I normally opt not to have the etched marking in the corner because of aesthetics.  It is not required.  In addition all glass in walk through doors should be tempered except for small decorative panes (<3" Diameter) or leaded/beveled glass panes.

    Following these rules will normally keep you out of trouble, but it's a good idea to err on the side of caution when dealing with questionable areas or unusual applications.  When I was a firefighter we had a rescue run where a young boy (about 11) tried to run through an old sliding glass patio door that had standard glass in it.  His head broke through the lower part of the pane and the upper portion slid down and cut his head off like a guillotine.  If any of you or your customers still have old doors like this in use please advise them to replace them.

6. 
   DennisS | Aug 26, 2003 05:55am | #11

   Cam....

   What thickness of glass did you use? What I used on some storm windows years ago (single strength 'B') was really thin and I suspect was far more breakable than a thicker section. This stuff I used was something less than 1/8" thick, even.

   How high are the cabinet doors that contain this glass? Perhaps they're out of reach of any small children that would inadvertantly slam the door with such force as to break it.

   What would "I" do? I'd go to the client/friend/owner and let them know that the glass isn't tempered. I'd also check out the cost of laminated glass (rather than tempered) and suggest that the glass be replaced. Laminated glass isn't necessarily any stronger than tempered or a single lite of the same thickness but it's cheaper than tempered for cut-to-size pieces than tempered that have to be tempered *after* they're cut. And if there's any issue with the cost, i wouldn't balk about eating it. You're only as good as your last job. Free or otherwise.

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

1. 
   ccampbell | Aug 26, 2003 04:15pm | #12

   Thanks to everyone who weighed in.  In the end I spoke with the owner about the issue and gave her the option, and asked her to sign a new bill that included a note to the effect that she didn't want tempered glass and was okay with the regular stuff.

   The doors are all uppers and seem really solid with the glass set in silicone all the way around.