Hello.
My problem has to do with finishing.
We have recently finished a very fine dining room table top. The main wood is blood wood accented with quilted maple and about six other fine woods. We have employed the technique of marquetry in the form of a floral arrangement. Once again, the result is very satisfying. But, now comes the finishing which is my major problem with this craft of wood working. In very simple terms, I have never produced a satisfactory result.
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Yesterday I sprayed two layers of two pound shellac on the top.
My plan was to spray a number of additional layers. After that, my scheme was to polish it down to a nice sheen. And, when that was done cover the shellac with a few layers of lacquer. Now I have found out that this is not the way to do things. What I was aiming at was to seal the shellac with the lacquer in order to protect the shellac from alcohol and food spills. The reason for my thinking is that have read somewhere – (don’t remember where) – that the described procedure was the proper one.
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Is there a simple – fool proof way of doing this job without having to obtain a doctorate in all the actions, reactions, conversions and combinations available?
Or, perhaps it would be better to hire out the work to a highly qualified finishing firm.
Any suggestions? Thanks for your interest.
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Stig Lundberg
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Replies
"Is there a simple – fool proof way of doing this job without having to obtain a doctorate in all the actions, reactions, conversions and combinations available?" Probably, but you at least need a good book or two -- Flexner, Jewitt. The time invested in understanding it pales in comparison to the amount of work you put into what sounds like a gorgeous table.
Looks like you got some good answers over at Woodweb too.
Sig,
Just finished a desk in the following way. Two coats of shellac followed by a light sanding. Then three coats of water-based poly followed by 600 grit sanding. Two more coats of semi-gloss water-based poly. Wait at least a week if not two for the poly to fully cure, then sand with a 1200 grit wet-dry sand paper followed by polishing with auto polishes.
Worked great with a semi-gloss sheen.
Bill
Bill.
Thank you for your interest in my predicament.
Here is my situation.
I am a good wood worker, really, I am. No joking.
As a finisher I am an absolute fiasco. I don’t know why but that is the simple truth. Let me prove my point…….
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What is poly? Is it polyurethane?
If so, what is polyurethane? Dos it have something to do with urea?
Wet-dry sand paper? Can I get it at Home Depot? Is it the blackish looking stuff that looks like emery cloth? I feel like an idiot here.
I really do know the meaning of grit etc.
The same for gloss, semi gloss and dull.
Auto polishes? Do I get them at Kragen or?
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Once again Bill. I am not joking. This is how dumb a Swede can be, really!
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I need help. I hate golfing.
Stig.
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Stig,Water-based polyurethane is a water based varnish which is extremely tough and durable. Much more so than either the shellac or the lacquer you suggested. Go to a wood working store to look for it. I use General Finishes brand but there are others out there. As for the sand paper, don't buy it at Home Depot, buy it from a woodworking store or catalogue. I doubt you can buy the really fine grits at Home Depot. As far as the polishing compounds, a Kragens would probably carry it...Macquires (sp?) is a well known brand. As for a very fine polish. Actually, I use a 3M product but since I am out of town on business, I can not tell you exactly what product I use.The whole idea is to build up a durable finish with multiple coats while sanding between every few coats. The sanding removes the dust tits and it levels the surface...steel wool will not level so don't use it. Sand with a rigid block so you are flattening the surface. Once you get to 1000 grit or higher, you can polish the surface to any degree of gloss you wish with the automotive polishing compounds. If you don't like the look you got, just sand again and polish with a different polishing compound. I usually do the final polishing by hand but it can be done with an orbital polisher with a bonnet on it.Take your time and you will get a finish which people with rave about. It will feel smooth and look deep and rich.Bill[email protected]
Bill.
Let me tell you that I have at least half a dozen books and guides on finishing in my shop.
I have followed their instructions faithfully, to no avail.
One tells me that the way to do it is to put on shellac first and then put on a “top coat” of lacquer. The next one says – use lacquer only. One tells me to use varnish. I did that and my wife told me that it looks like the deck on a sail boat.
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I will now try your method, starting a.s.a.p. One crowning question however.
I have now sprayed two layers of two pound shellac on the table. Can I put a water based polyurethane on top of it? I will wait for your answer before I go ahead.
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After that I will continue as described in your last post.
Once again. Thank you for taking the time with this old fool. You are a good man indeed.
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All the best.
Stig.
Stig,
It depends on what kind of shellac you used. If you are going to try waterborne polyurethane the shellac should be de-waxed (all shellac contains wax naturally, it is removed to be sold as de-waxed shellac).
I think that everyone is putting the cart in front of the horse here anyway. You first have to decide what kind of look you want and what level of protection is neccesary for each project before you decide on the finish material. There is no one finish for all purposes.
When you start putting different finishing materials on top of each other is when you start to open yourself up to real trouble. For instance polyurethane (oil based or waterborne) on top of shellac that still contains wax is asking for problems with the poly flaking off. Same with any waterborne finish over waxy shellac. Shellac and laquer don't mix very well either. The solvent in laquer can cause shellac to become gummy and soft.
To get back to what I think is square one. Do you want a built up finish or a finish that is more "in the wood"? If it is to be a built up finish (what is called a film finish), what gloss level do you want? What conditions is this table to be used in? Kids running hot wheels over the surface or adults having dinner? Do you like the look of the shellac? That may be the only finish that you need. You need to define an end goal before planning the steps to reach it.
Rob
EDIT: You should always test your complete finish on a sample board before applying anything to the actual project.
Edited 10/21/2008 3:59 am ET by Rob A.
I think you will be fine. Conventional wisdom says that you must use de-wax shellac but my experience is that most shellacs which you purchase in the liquid form are OK. I use "Seal-coat" most of the time but when I can not find it, I just use the shellac I buy at Home Depot.
Bill
Stig,
Using thick applications of two types of finishes is not the best way to go. The shellac as a sealer, if de-waxed wouldn't hurt anything as long as it is applied in a very thin wash coat type layer (probably unnecessary with a lacquer top coat). The problem comes from having two finishes applied in comparatively thick layers, since they will "move" differently and could cause adhesion problems (probably not a major concern with shellac and lacquer). Along the same line, it is best to keep your finish film as thin as possible; I have not always done this, and in the past I have laid on some pretty thick finishes, but I won't do it anymore.
I have only limited experience with lacquer, but I don't think it is all that resistant to alcohol.
If the table were mine, I'd remove as much of the shellac as possible and if you did not use de-waxed shellac in the first application, apply a very thin coat of it to seal in the shellac containing wax. I Think I would look at the water based lacquer from Target (Ultima Spray Lacquer) or their conversion varnish. I have not used the conversion varnish, but I have been using the lacquer for almost a year now, and I'm completely sold on it. I just took a panel I did last November and tested it by wiping on some lacquer thinner and rubbing alcohol. The thinner did only minimal damage to the finish, and the alcohol, had no effect on it. The scratch resistance is equally impressive, once the lacquer has cured for a while. It is very easy to rub out to any sheen from a soft, to a wet gloss; another reason, I'm sold on it, since it can perfectly mimic a well done shellac finish, without looking "heavy".
I've started using the Emtech 8000 sealer under the lacquer in place of filling the grain, and the results are very satisfying, both from a labor and appearance standpoint.
Good luck with your project and be sure to post some photos of it.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Stig,
Why all this confusion and uncertainty about the protection afforded by shellac versus lacquer and the way to apply and finish them? What books on finishing have you been reading? Finishing is NOT the mystery some make it out to be.
Shellac is one of the most beautiful finishes one can apply to wood, so is lacquer (or varnish) if the material is applied and "rubbed out" correctly. Shellac and lacquer behave almost identically during finishing. Varnish is a different matter.
Both shellac and lacquer can be applied as the initial sealing coat, then used to build up whatever thickness of film is desired. That is, they both can be used as the "complete" solution to finishing the table. Alcohol is the solvent for shellac, so finishing a table with shellac as the final top coat(s) is not the thing to do if alcohol resistance is necessary, as in your case. Starting with shellac then using lacquer for the top coat(s) is an excellent solution.
Shellac is available with its naturally-occurring wax, or in a de-waxed form. Any lacquer or oil-based varnish can be used over either kind of shellac. A water-based varnish will not adhere to shellac that contains wax.
Continue your project using lacquer over the shellac. Don't use "Poly." The following applies to a finishing schedule consisting of just shellac applications, or a base coat of shellac, then lacquer as in your situation.
Assuming you properly prepared the wood by sanding completely smooth, finishing with 220-320 grit sandpaper before applying the 2 shellac coats, level the existing shellac film using 320 grit on a rubber sanding block. Gently take down all dust nibs and surface irregularities. You won't be able to get a perfectly level surface. You will be able to take off the tops of shellac "mountains", abrading them to the 320 grit texture, leaving some shiny "valleys" in between. Don't try to get the valleys completely sanded, as you will cut through to bare wood.
Then spray 3 THIN coats of lacquer, waiting 30 minutes to an hour between coats. Let the last dry over night.
Then level with 320 grit again. This time, the valleys in-between the abraded areas will be much smaller as you gently sand. It will be much easier to get more of the surface looking like ground glass. But, again don''t be too aggressive, just get all the visible dust nibs and surface irregularities. Then spray 3 more coats, letting each dry 30 minutes to 1 hr. Let the 3rd coat dry over night.
Then level with 320 grit again. This time, almost the entire surface should level out to a uniform abraded, ground-glass look. If some very small valleys remain they will come out with the next lacquer application. Spray 3 more thin coats as above. Let dry for several days, preferably about a week.
Then level with 320 grit. It should be very easy to get a very uniform abraded surface. Then use 400 grit. You can then use 4-0 steel wool for a nice matte finish, or continue with 600 grit, then automotive rubbing compound (red) then polishing compound (white) then swirl remover. The last will give a glass-mirror-like polish to the finish. Stopping at either of the rubbing compound or polishing compound steps will give a satin finish of finer texture than the steel wool step.
Good luck,
Rich
Edited 10/21/2008 6:40 am ET by Rich14
Thanks guys for all the advice.
After reading all posts I have come to the following conclusion.
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Since I already have committed myself with two, medium thin layers of shellac I will save time and effort with continuing down that road. First I will rub down to as smooth a finish as I can without ruining the veneer. I shall use sand paper up to 320 grit. After that I will apply two or three coats of shellac, - very thin.
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Then comes the lacquer, three coats as per Rich14. Let dry over night – level off with 320 paper followed by another three thin coats. After repeating the process I will then go to the 400 grit paper.
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Now comes something that I have never done.
I will move up to 600 grit and automotive rubbing compounds. I shall also purchase some sort of power buffer and other gadgets that will help me get the finish that I am looking for. As I am reading the advice from all of you I have come to realize that I am short of the proper supplies and equipment. My problem is that I have been under the mistaken impression that one can get a good looking finish right out of a can in a few minutes.
Once again, many thanks to all of you. In a week or so I will post a picture of my master piece.
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Stig.
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You really don't need a power buffer. There is a learning curve, and an excellent result can be achieved with hand buffing. If you do go the power route, make a decent size practice board with a similar finishing schedule (it doesn't need the marquetry of course) and put it through the paces before starting on the actual table.
Stig,"My problem is that I have been under the mistaken impression that one can get a good looking finish right out of a can in a few minutes"That single realization is THE epiphany. THAT changes everything.You are exactly right. ANY finish left to harden/cure/dry generally looks quite awful. Terrible in fact. You must "finish the finish." Laying the stuff down on the wood to let it get to its final hard state is just the beginning.But while getting a good looking finish right out of the can is not possible (and the hallmark of poor craftsmanship) just gentle leveling and paying attention to a little bit of detail can result in a magnificent finish. Rubbing out is just about as simple as it gets.Even better news - the process removes all the anxiety about finishing. Everyone worries about dust and other junk getting in the wet film. Yes, some degree of cleanliness is important in the "finishing room," but knowing that you are going to automatically correct all those surface imperfections with the rubbing out process turns finishing into a calm, rewarding experience.As Steve says, no power buffer needed. Hand sanding and hand buffing is all that's needed.Rich
Hello guys, I’m back again, ready to go.
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Yesterday I received a whole bunch of sand paper, all the way up to 10,000 grit. Rubbing compound, cork blocks, pads, grain filler and all sorts of other goodies. So, now I am ready to finish the table top.
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My daughter and I sanded the table down to bare wood without breaking through the veneer. Blood wood is very thick and close grained, so we decided against using filler.
Before checking out of the shop, we sprayed a single layer of shellac. It turned out very good indeed.
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Tomorrow Friday we shall start with rubbing down the shellac to a fine sheen. We will then spray on another layer of shellac. Since it will be hot and dry here we will wait a maximum of a couple of hours or so. Then we will rub it down again, very gently with 400 grit paper.
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Next, the lacquer. We will spray a layer or two, wait for it to dry. Rub it down with a 600 grit agent. Another layer, followed with finer paper. And so on until we arrive at the look we like. We did some testing the other day on a test board, following the advice from you guys. It really worked out fine.
I am really looking forward to tomorrow’s adventure in finishing. I shall attach a picture when we are done. Once again – thank you all very much.
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Stig.
stig,Stay with 320 grit for leveling between finish applications. Save the 400 and 600 grit for after you've leveled the final coat with 320 which has been left to dry for a week before starting the leveling, rubbing out.Use a hard rubber sanding block.400 is too fine, will load too quickly and will not allow you to achieve the perfectly level surface film you need before refining it.Rich
You don't need to rub down the shellac to a fine sheen. Between coats all you need to do is level the surface, using 320 grit paper on a sanding block--you don't need to go finer. Only the final coat needs to be rubbed to the desired sheen.
You must keep in mind that both shellac and lacquer contain very little in the way of solids. They are 90% or more solvents and thinners--unlike oil based varnishes which are 505 or more solids. What this means is that once the thinners evaporate, you have very little finish on the surface. You must apply enough coats to have a sufficient film layer if you intend to "rub" it out. If you are looking to use shellac to fill irregularities or pores, two coats is not enough unless the wood is small pored and basically leveled already. Same with lacquer. It too, has little in the way of solids and multiple coats need to be applied if you plan to use a multiple step rub out process.Howie.........
Thank you for the input. What you just told me is something that I never thought about or heard of.
So, what can I do to put more solids on top of the six layers of lacquer that now rest on the table top? I must say that all looks very good at this point. Having said that, I am not against applying something that give more protection - if possible without too much bother. Thanks again.
Stig
Stig,If you have applied 6 applications of 2# cut shellac. You should have enough solid film laid down. But then again you may not. Everyone's technique differs. It's not the number of applications that matter, it's the behavior of the total built-up film. That's what indicates whether there's enough finish on the wood.If you're trying to get pore filling (and this ONLY works for TINY pores - anything bigger than TINY needs pore filler), then absence of surface depressions above those pores indicates you have achieved at least that step.Another "test" is the behavior of the film to leveling. When the film is thin, leveling will only achieve flattening of the tops of the highest irregularities. The "mountains" will be sheared off, leaving areas of relatively shiny "valleys." Any attempt to achieve a completely uniform abraded film surface at this point will result in cutting right through to bare wood.As more and more shellac is applied, leveling results in wider and wider abraded mountain areas and smaller and smaller in-between valleys. When it's possible to easily achieve a completely uniform ground-glass appearance over the entire surface, with complete merging of all the mountain and valley areas, by gently sanding with almost just the weight of your hand and sanding block, producing absolutely dry, fine shellac powder, you've applied enough finish. It can then be rubbed out to any surface appearance desirable.More finish can be applied at this point, if desired, (I don't) but eventually the finish can get thick enough to cause problems on its own.If shellac is being used only as a sealer coat, it's not necessary to go through all of the above, of course. In that case the very same process applies to the lacquer film applied over the shellac sealer.Clear shellac and lacquer are virtually indistinguishable, visually, as finishes. They are equally durable to wear. Darker shades of shellac impart their unique coloring to wood matched by no other coloring agents for beauty and depth of "fire" in the wood. The choice to finish the wood only with shellac or to use lacquer generates all the discussions, arguments, rants about resistance to alcohol, water, etc.Rich
Rich – Howie.
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Once again thank you for your interest in my quest for a perfect finish.
Here is the good news. And – to repeat myself, here is what we have done and where we stand this evening.
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· Day one, after spraying 2 layers of #2 shellac, we let it dry overnight.
· Next morning we sanded very lightly and wiped off the surface with a dry cloth.
· We then sprayed two layers of semi gloss lacquer.
· Day three we hand sanded the somewhat dusty looking table to a smooth touch. After that we sprayed two layers of lacquer.
· Day four we sanded again and sprayed as we did on day three.
· Day five we repeated the drill again.
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Tonight we looked at the top and found that even without sanding it, it looked fabulous!
In doing all this we have learned a few things.
First of all you are right in saying that we do not need a power sander. In this short time we have learned to sand by hearing and feeling. As soon as a section is done it gives no resistance to speak of, so we move over a bit. At that time the sound becomes scratchy and there is resistance. Our ears and hands become coordinated to a point that we no longer need to touch the table to feel the result.
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When we started there were quite a few large pores and streaks here and there. They are now all gone. As a matter of fact, on day four we debated to stop but decided to spray again. We are like kids that have discovered a new toy.
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So, tomorrow we are quickly going to sand down to smooth with 320 grit again. Then we will set the top away, (after snapping a picture of it). We will leave it for at least two weeks, perhaps more, to cure. After that comes the rub down.
Once again guys, thank you all for letting us in on theese small but very important details.
Stig
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Stig,
Isn't finishing great?!
Rob
Stig,If the finish looks good to you, that's all that matters. Glad to hear you are happy with the results.But here's a little more information in the category of "there are many ways to skin this cat." (There is no one way of finishing anything. Many methods can lead to the same final result)Unless I missed it in a previous post, I didn't know you planned to use semi-gloss lacquer. If I had I would have advised against it. There is nothing wrong with using it (it's existence indicates it must have use) but the method(s) of finishing the finish you have read about here pretty much make such products unnecessary, even undesirable.Gloss lacquer (or varnish), as opposed to semi-gloss, or satin, or matte, or any other modifier, has only the finish solids and solvents/vehicle/thinner. When the finish dries it is as clear as it is possible for that finish to be. "Crystal clear" is the term usually applied. The beauty of the wood is enhanced by the action of the finish film in removing surface glare.The other categories of finish have various amounts of "flatting" agents (microscopic silica plates) that reduce the clarity and give the so-called semi-gloss, or satin, or matte look. They do this by being cloudy. They disperse light within the thickness of the finish film and increase glare to the detriment of the beauty of the wood.Most finishers of fine wood work do not use such finishes, or reserve them for only the last application, never for multiple coats because there's too much dulling of the wood grain. Of course, there's a place for everything, and these finishes might be just the thing for slightly obscuring wood that is not that attractive.By using only gloss finish, after the final leveling, the rubbing-out process allows the finisher to obtain any surface appearance he wants from a soft matte, through a semi-gloss to a mirror-like shine, depending on the level of abrasive he uses, starting with 4-0 steel wool, up through 600 grit, 800, 1200 or auto rubbing compound (red) auto polishing compound (white) and swirl remover. The rubbing-out action is only on the top of the finish film, there is no cloudiness in the film caused by flatting agents and the appearance is far superior to that produced by anything other than gloss finish (at least that's the opinion of those of us who do it that way).Good luck, and keep on experimenting.Rich
Hello again - well here it is! We sanded it down to very smooth with 320 grit, vacuumed it and rolled it into the guest room for about two weeks stay. Then we will rub it down as you guys suggested.Yes Rich, I goofed with the semigloss lacquer but next time we'll go with full gloss and tone it down if need be. Once again, thanks to all of you. We really appreciate it.
Stig & Renya.
Wow. Beautiful.Man, are you going to have stories to tell about that project! We'll now expect you to be sharing finishing secrets here!Rich
Thank You very much.
When we have finished the rubbing I'll post a picture of the finished table with legs and all. Thanks again.
Stig.
Well, no wonder you are "satisfied" with it. GOOD job--beautiful. ;o)Gretchen
Stig, Rich has given you lots of good info. When leveling a surface, the surface tells you when it level. Sanding or scraping after the initial coats will leave shiny areas or spots where the lower surface is below the rest of the area. Apply another few coats of finish and again level. The shiny areas will be smaller or, maybe, gone. Keep up with the process until your flat sanding reveals no more shiny spots or areas. That is the indication that the surface is truly flat. This only works if you use a sanding block or hard, flat pad.You can use either shellac or lacquer to build the surface but, as I explained before, the low amount of solids will make it a longer process. Commercial finishers use lacquer based sanding sealers to get a fast initial build. Sanding sealer contains a large amount of solids so defects and depressions are filled with one or two coats. Then the final clear coats are applied.So, without going back and reading the whole thread, let me suggest you just sand with 320 paper on a flat sanding block down to just above the wood (Don't worry if you go completely to the wood). If you have as much finish on as I suspect, that will level the surface. Now apply 3-4 coats of whatever you want for a clear coat.Howie.........
Stig,
I am , or have been, a woodworker like you. I have not read all the replies here so if I repeat or contradict any of them an apology is due.
I think you are on the right track with the shellac, but are blasting on way too much-one or two thin coats is all that is required with a levelling in between-AND - I highly recommend the Zinsser Bulls Eye dewaxed shellac sealer to be used in conjunction with a pre catalysed furniture lacquer.
I also recommend a pre-catalysed lacquer to be sprayed on, and rubbed down /levelled . If the surface is very good then you can spray it thick and level with a scraper to speed things up. Then use 0000 steel wool to burnish. If you want a glass like finish then this a separate process requiring the use of burnishing compound-if you are not experienced then this table top does not sound like a good time to experiment.
See a top I did using like that with not too much bother-the wood is PNG Rosewood.(Pterocarpus Indicus).
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