please excuse the typos … i can only type with one hand. every so often we all need to be reminded about safety and the fact that we must have tremendous respect for our tools even when doing everything as safely as we can. this post is meant to do just that.
last thursday i was ripping a piece of 6 x 4 x 1/4″ stock against the fence and using a pair of rubber footed push sticks so my hands were about 3″ from the blade or more. just as i was finishing the cut i heard a crack along the lines of the sound kickback makes though the stock was firmly held. i have absoltely no idea how it happened but less than a heartbeat later i was standing a foot back wondering what had happened though my left hand was numb. looking down i noticed the tips of two fingers – to put it as gently as possible – were not looking the way i remembered them looking just a fewq moments before. they did not hurt, but they were anything but ok. after reconstructive surgery for 1.5 hoiurs at the hospital i was sent home to recover which will take several months.
all things considered my guardian angel did a remarkable job and i am expected to make a full recovery although two fingers will be slightly shorter. i am a conservatory trained guitarist who played professionally in a road band and as a studio musician for over 10 years some time ago and i am told that i will be able to continue playing in time which was a major concern as you can imagine. i have been over this a million times in my mind and talked it over with several local woodworkers but don’t know where i broke any safety rules. so this post is simply meant to be a reminder to anyone reading it to remember that even if you follow all safety rules accidents can still happen. that table saw or any edged power tool deserves your utmost respect.
be safe. take the time to make that jig you were thinking about … it just might save you more than you will ever know. it only takes a split second to change your life forever.
ken
Replies
Ken,
I read about your accident with both sorrow and happiness. Sorry to hear about your accident. Happy that you will make a near total recovery.
Hindsight is 20/20, but we're trained to keep our hands at least 16" away from the blade, unless they're anchored to the fence. In this case, you can bring them closer, but get the guard set accurately (less than a finger's width between the guard and the job.)
Always use long pushsticks.
I'll post a link here to the pushstick similar to the ones I use. They regularly get hacked up (making a new one every couple of days)
Cheers,
eddie
edit (thanks google):
This "instructional" picture of how to use a pushstick gives me some cause for concern. I'd use two pushsticks here as the left hand could get too close. http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodbasics/vendors/mcfeely/classes/pushing.htm
Here's something pretty close to our design - we make ours from clear stock, no defects, shakes or checks, minimum 12mm thick - if we're ripping 6mm stock we just push the stick into the blade and then trim off the end of the pushstick and re-shape it the end at the end of each cut. (note that this is not a frequent occurence or use of the saw). I run with the blade fairly high, so that the force at the leading edge is down, not predominantly horizontal (which is the case if you have the saw gullet just clearing the cut) http://www.seelb-eurotecnet.demon.co.uk/tech/resourcesafe.html
Edited 8/6/2003 8:16:09 AM ET by eddie (aust)
Eddie:
"to keep our hands at least 16" away from the blade, unless they're anchored to the fence"
Can you give me more clarification on the "anchored to the fence" comment? I regulary will straddle my right pinky finger over the fence and ride it as I rip a smaller piece. Is this what you're talking about?
That's it, Tufenhundel
Get's me nervous when my hands are within a handspan of the blade, so I usually use two pushsticks whenever I am confronted with this.
Cheers,
eddie
Glad you brought it up and sorry about your accident. Was that 6 inches by 4 inches, or six feet? I can't imagine how that could have happened with a six FOOT board, but square, thin stock is THE most dangerous because the blade tips can get under it and spin it around. Sounds like what happened to you.
Also, when cutting thin wood, just the wind created by the blade can lift and turn the piece so that it gets caught by the teeth. Use the mitre gauge whenever possible instead of the fence. I also use two long ice picks rather than push sticks. Rubber on the ends gets slippery from the saw dust, so that's not a good idea. Ice picks can't slip and the little holes they make is a small price to pay for safety.
Wish you a speedy recovery.
Did you say you use ice picks for push sticks? With one of the reasons for using a push stick being that in the event of a slip, the stick goes into the blade and not you, I would hate to see what shrapnel comes flying out when a steel ice pick gets fed into the blade. Just something to think about.
Rich
hi rich,
no ... they were wooden push sticks with rubber pads glued to the bottom for traction. should have been sufficient to prevent slippage and the wood was held snugly. i wouldn't want to put any loose metal objects near the blade.
ken
SparrowHawk,
I was refering to boatmans post about using ice picks as pushsticks. Sorry for the confusion.
Hope you have a speedy recovery.
Rich
i've read of patternmakers who must cut alot of small parts very precisely using icepicks to control small stock thru the saw. apparently the trick is to use one to pin down and push your main piece and use the other to manage the offcut. that way, in theory at least, nothing can get away from you. it also allows for controlling small stock with much less occupied area than push sticks or pads- in other words, the ice picks can actually be kept farther away from the blade than other tools.
sparrowhawk, i'm still trying to envision exactly what you were doing to this piece of 6x4x.25 stock? were you ripping a piece off the long dimension? which width was between the blade and fence? with some details we can probably figure out a perfectly (ok, reasonably) safe way to perform this operation and help save others from your difficulties.
here's to a speedy recovery!
m
Well, I suspect that since he say's he hasn't a clue as to why it happened, that IS a clue to why it happened. The vast majority of accidents happen as a result of doing something foolish from being in a hurry, tired or both.i.e., violating the rules.
My #1 rule is to always pause and think before pushing something thru. Over the years, i've trained my self to do this so that it is now automatic. Not actually thinking, but a momentary pause to become AWARE of what you might be doing wrong.
#2 rule is never work tired because you can't or won't think straight when tired.
But if you want to keep your fingers, you must learn all the rules and how accidents happen.
SparrowHawk,
Very sorry to hear about your accident....its especially scary to hear you don't know the who, what or why of the situation. Every time I try to cut 1/4" stock my heart is in my throat...nearly everytime I have either had or come close to an accident. I try to use the sled whenever possible...but even then it can be scary.
It would be a terrible shame if you can't play as well as before. Thanks for the warning (I think)...I approach the basement with great concern this morning.
Ken, I am so sorry to hear about your accident and subsequent injuries. Can only imagine how fearful you were about the possible end of your musical endeavors, and glad to hear that's not going to happen.
I hope you'll forgive all of us who are asking for precise details of the operation you were performing when the accident happened. The details would be very helpful as we try to understand what might have happened.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, I share your pain, and I'm not just sayin' that. Two weeks ago, I was stupid at the table saw - a brief lapse of concentration, reaching for a piece of wood that shouldn't have been at the back of the saw anyway for any reason - and zip! - the blade caught me on the right thumb (yes, I'm right-handed). Ten stitches at the ER; but then the hand surgeon reconnected two nerves and a tendon in the thumb a week later, a week in the cast, now in a splint for the next five weeks - awful lot of pain and inconvenience for a momentary lapse. Needless to say, all woodworking has pretty much come to a screeching halt for the past few, and probably at least next two weeks. Maybe a little bit of sanding this weekend, with the left hand.
What annoyed me is I'm usually very careful - I use the eye protection, the ear protection, splitters, blade guards, crosscut sleds - and tend to ask myself "Is this smart ? Is this safe" before attempting a new operation on a machine, but despite all that, it got me.
SH-
Sorry to learn of your situation. Of late, it seems that I have had more than my share of "unsafe" incidents and have encountered TS kickback 3 or 4 times in the last month. Incredibly, this has been mostly due to my own stupidity and neglect. Thanks for your message to remind me how lucky I have been. My Biesemeyer overhead guide is in pieces on the floor and needs to go back on quickly.
Just as astonishing is the saw manufacturer's apparent neglect of the situation. The company Saw stop has invented a device that slams a TS blade to a stop if it encounters flesh. It was in FWW a couple of times. Apparently, it would add a couple of hundred to the price of a new saw. Unfortunately, Delta and Powermatic have not been willing to take a license and install this on "our" saws. Unless they have a better alternative, I think that is a crying shame for these folks.
Saw Stop now will go into the saw mfg business in order to get this product to the market. Perhaps the only way we will ever get this on a Unisaw or PM66 is to get their attention - perhpas a letter / e-mail campaign.
Wondering if anyone feels as I do?
RW
my point was what operation was he trying to accomplish? i realize he's not sure what went wrong. if he could better explain exactly what he was intending to do and how he was going about it, perhaps some of the experts around here could troubleshoot the problem and come up with a safe way to avoid it in the future.
m
Mitch,
I see where you're coming from, but is now the time? If Ken says it's Ok then maybe.
Cheers,
eddie
ok ... here's what i was doing. i was cutting an insert for a small box. the piece was to be cut to roughly 3" x 6" x 1/4" . i was ripping it (3" wide) against the fence. the wood was maple burl. the nearly new WWII blade was raised at 90* about 1/2" above the table (roughly 1 tooth above the wood) with a zero clearance insert. i was using 2 push sticks - each about 8" long x 3/4" square with a notch cut in an end that lay on the wood to push it down that was around 3/4" long at the angle. the ends had some rubber (mousepad) glued to them for traction - no overhang but firmly attached. i was focused and concentrating carefully as i always am when using any power tool. the cut went smoothly and i was just pushing both sides past the blade when i heard the crack. next thing i knew my hand was numb. incidentally, i have checked the wood i was cutting and it is perfectly shaped (it was between the blade and the fence). push sticks were nicked to begin with so i don't know about them - both were on the floor after the cut - i probably dropped them there though i have a slight recollection that i still had the one in my right hand and dropped it but i can't be sure. cant find the rest of the wood which was on the left side of the blade and about 2" x 6" x 1/4". my left hand was injured. my guess is that the push stick in my left hand must have caught the blade which might have thrown my hand into the blade but i simply don't remember and maybe that is a blessing. it happened in less than a heartbeat.
now - the first thing i will build when i get back to the saw is a sled with top down clamps to hold the wood so i onmly need to set it, clamp it and use the back rail of the sled to push it through the cut. such a jig would have avoided the incident altogether of course, but i had thought my cut to be reasonably safe as i had full control of the wood and my hands were several inches away from the blade.
my sympathies to everyone else who is suffering just now - no matter what the cause. lessons well learned, eh? i sort of like the sympathetic hugs and kisses ... but i am under strict orders not to ever do this again. normally i don't take orders very well but i think i will behave in this case.
my hand is really throbbing so i'm going to go lie down.
ken
Thanks, Ken, for taking the time (and discomfort) to type out that reply to us. Certainly you sled idea is the safest way to go. [PS: Just thought of something -- is there any chance the 1/4" material snuck under your fence momentarily??]
I do not, and never have, liked "push sticks" such as the ones you describe. I made 2 or 3 and was never comfortable using them. I prefer a pusher that extends its body forward over the wood, providing much more than 2-point contact with the stock. If it has to be a very narrow one (such as when ripping narrow pieces next to the fence), a pusher with a fence-riding sled is my choice.
But my first choice (short of the sled) would be to use only 1 pusher and use either a featherboard or just a plain board clamped to the fence to exert control over the piece between it and the blade.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
sparrowhawk:
we are lucky to live in the electronic age, if for know other reason, than to be able to hear your story. Ten years ago, we all might have rarely read about such a problem.
For me, you have raised my consciousness on the safety issue again. Thanks for sharing. Sorry it happened.
Yes, same here. For large stock I use rectangular pusher blocks typically 6" by 12 or 14". I use thin plywood pushers for ripping small strips and the icepick for everything else. I was thinking about Ken yesterday as I spent and hour or so at the saw ripping dozens of 3/8 wide strips. By his explanation, his mistake is clear to me.
Ken's problem was the one I mentioned earliler, THE most dangerous of all, the small, THIN work piece. Many people don't seem to be aware that the saw teeth at the back are rotating UPWARD. This has the tendency to catch and spin the workpiece. And despite near constant discussion here, these injuries keep right on happening, even to experienced people.
When you are cutting thin stock -- that is thin in the horizontal plane, NO type of wood pusher is safe. To adequately grip the work piece, you need somethign that digs into the wood and really holds it. A pusher just can't do that. That's where the ice pick comes in. With the size piece Ken was cutting, I would use two ice picks to keep the piece from rotating.
You can make good pushers by grinding old screw drivers to a point, or put brad points in a pusher block or buy an ice pick. It should be at least 10" long. Whatever you use, its gotta be something that will hold the piece. Wood-on-wood just doesn't do that. Too slippery. Never mind the little holes the ice picks make, they are a small price to pay to keep your fingers and hands.
FG, What is your opinion of this pusher? Would this have helped? Dalewood
http://www.microjig.com/GRR-Ripper.htm
In Ken's specific situation, yes, it would appear the Grr-Ripper would have prevented such an accident. The disadvantages I see to the Grr-Ripper are that (a) you have to remove the splitter/guard to use it and (b) it's limited in the size (length) of stock that it is useful for.
Their claim that it eliminates the need for a splitter is worrisome to me. That may be true with perfect wood and perfect technique, but if the wood has any significant internal tension, it could easily move while under the Grr-Ripper and pinch the blade. Then you have not only the wood flying through the air, but it's carrying the Grr-Ripper as a passenger. Not fun.
Keeping in mind that I'm am no expert, I just have opinions, I would approach this task as mentioned in an earlier post. I would use a mechanical device to independently control the stock between the blade and the fence (no hands) -- either the Grip-Tite Magnetic featherboards with the rollers, a featherboard clamped to the fence, or simply a board. I would use a long-based pusher (not push-stick) to control the other half of the stock. That pusher can easily be equipped with a guard that separates hand from blade. I prefer the GT fence system, because the little rollers firmly pull the stock to the fence and hold it down.
I had asked about the possibility of the stock slipping under the fence, and another poster (name? sorry!) mentioned this also. My funky Jet fence has a significant gap between the fence and the table, and when cutting thin stock I always line the fence with a piece of Masonite or something that closes that gap.
Much appreciation to Ken again: it's likely I would not have put near this much thought into this particular operation had he not firmly brought our attention to it!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/7/2003 12:33:08 PM ET by forestgirl
This will be an unpopular post. You were doing everything correctly except the push sticks. In exactly the same situation, with 3" between the blade and the fence, I'd use my right hand, (thumb and index finger and middle finger) to do the pushing because of the control I get. I'm 62y.o. and have been cutting small stuff like this since I was 15 w/o a problem ever. If the fence is less than 1" from the blade, then I use push sticks which are 5/16" wide and 2.5" x 12" with 2 different size notches in the end. Which notch depends on the thickness of the stock. I don't like using pushsticks because there's so little control of the stock. Finally, when you do small pieces, make sure you run it thru in one smooth push, in one end of the blade and clear out the other. No gloves, no loose clothing. When I do use the sticks, I push with one and use the other to hold the wood against the fence. Lots of things like fingers near the blade sound dangerous, but if you focus on the blade and hand it isn't actually dangerous if you do it right.
Incidentally, what did the sawn edge of the workpiece look like after you were injured?
thank you all for your best wishes. the real reason i posted this was simply as a reminder to everyone about the fickle nature of power tools. we all get a tad complacent from time to time and sometimes take an unnecessary chance - "it's only a small cut after all ... too much trouble to set up a jig". set up the jig. one split second can change your life forever.
rob - you asked about the cut edge of the piece. no burn or nicks ... perfect cut.
i will also make some push blocks as mentioned as i have little faith left in sticks (go figure). i rather prefer my idea of the sled for most small cuts though because my hands will be holding a fence that will never get closer to the blade than probably 6-8". if i can figure out a way to make the cut while i'm standing in the next room, i'll post it. :+) mind you, this hasn't left me fearful of my table saw but i have a good deal of renewed respect for it. those of us who have become intimate with the blade will never forget this but it is my hope that everyone reading this thread think of our experiences every time before hitting that power button. and don't be complacent when changing blades either - unplug the beast! we're not a club anyone would want to join and we don't need any new members but it takes less than a split second to join. as one last sobering thought ... my dr. told me another local woodworker had a very similar accident last week and he had over 50 years of experience. one of my customers yesterday told me his friend lost two fingers last month. please be careful everyone.
ken
edit- to answer a question - i had removed the guard because the piece was so small.
Edited 8/7/2003 5:34:36 AM ET by SparrowHawk
You bet, that's why we encouraged you to explain in detail, not to rub your nose in a mistake. This is one area where you do NOT want to learn from experience, but the experience of others. It's always hard to visualize how these things happen.
I am very appreciative that you shared this with us.
Heal quick, man!
Jeez, I am really sorry for you guy. Thank you so much for your post. You have helped many people understand and be safer. Heal up and hair over.
Quarter inch stock is the only stock that has ever caused me to be injured. My story is this, the stock got away from the fence, rose up on the blade, and kicked back right at me. I was standing with my center right at the blade line. I am very tall so my crotch was about one inch above the table. Guess where the stock hit. Yep. They swelled up to the size of tennis balls and turned blue. I couldn't walk for a week.
Looking back I was lucky. Now, I do this:
1. I don't like thin stock on a table saw. If I can, I use a bandsaw which is the safest tool in the shop.
2. If I must use a TS for the thin stock I will use an auxilary fence with a hold down. My auxilary fence is a Besi with a T Slot mounted on the face. The T Slot holds a Benchdog plastic holdown which keeps the stock on the table, no matter what. I will also use a feather board to hold the stock against the fence. This process can take up to 10 minutes to set up, changing fences, installing the holdowns and featherboards, getting them adjusted to the stock thickness and width, and then a practice cut, with the blade down, to make sure everything is tight but not binding. I then raise the blade and use a push stick to run the stock through. It ain't going anywhere, guys.
3. I do wear gloves. Occaisionally, while ripping fir or anyother splintering wood, I get slivers. Gotta use gloves.
4. I have a easy shutoff on the TS that I can press with my knee, without removing my hands from the cut. If I get into trouble, and boy I can spot that, like when I am having a hard time holding down the stock and it wants to rise up, BAM, I hit that switch and shut off that TS, and go to another set up, hold downs, a helper etc.
5. For important cuts, I will literally do a couple practice cuts with the blade down and rehearse the cut, so I know that I have enough room behind me for long stock, the outfeed table is up and tight, and there is room in front of me for the cut stock and it is not too heavy and tippy. Again, adjust and adapt if I think I am running into problems.
All this is time. But I respect and fear that TS. It d a m n near ruined my sex life, and I have a lot of respect for it now. I never rush a cut.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
i'm glad this thread has the people who've read it thinking about their cuts a bit more before hitting that switch. the ts is a wonderful tool, but extremely dangerous as well. i will heal in time and consider myself one of the luckiest people around. i'm actually grateful for this experience because this is something i will never forget and will be a great deal safer woodworker for the rest of my life as a result. my guardian angel was watching over me last thursday or i could so easily have lost entire fingers or worse. as it is my doctor tells me i will be nearly as good as new but oh so much wiser!
one more thing ... people ask me how it feels. i can't speak for anyone but me and everyone feels pain differently. people visibly cringe when i tell them what happened to me but the pain is not what i would have imagined it to be. while there are moments of excruciating agony, most of the time it is a constant dull throb that wears on you. it's like a great weight is pushing on the tips of my fingers so the nail is being pushed into the cuticle. so hard that the fingers feel they are being forced to bend - but this is an illusion. there is a good deal of numbness as well - they feel as big as sausages. overall, i don't think anyone would argue with me if i said it sucks. so now you know and there's no need for you to try it to satisfy your curiosity. there is a reason why nobody who ever went through this wants to do it again.
be safe.Ken
Only had a kickback once - but I was (and always as much as possible) standing out of the way. That piece left the table like a Tomcat getting launched off of a carrier. Yikes! My poor wife was sitting at the computer right above where the stick hit, scared her half to death.
I don't typically do thin stuff, and would use bandsaw if I had to, but what about using a "carrier" on the idea of a SLAT? That would get the wood up above any gap between the fence and the blade. I've used such devices to put a "straight" edge on a board, seems like it might be possible.
Another true story. When I was a wee lad our next door neighbor was one of the most talented guys with his hands that one would ever meet. I don't want to give to many details just in case someone here knows him. Anyway, and I'm not making this up, if he had to cut a piece of 3/4", he'd set the saw blade up about 11/16, put his hand on top of the board and run the piece thru the blade, with his hand right on top! I mean right OVER the blade. As far as I know he still has all his digits.
I always drop the blade immeadiately after finishing a cut, and you bet I unplug the beast before sticking my pinkies remotely close to that heartless quillotine.
Glad you came thru it OK. I tangled once with a chainsaw and, other than a hardly noticable large knuckle, one would never notice. Whew.
SparrowHawk:
Thanks for putting out the word. I'm a novice and am scared of these things. I have two questions for you. Why did you have to remove the guard? I'm wondering if a different guard could have stayed on and made the cut safer. Also, do you think board buddies would have insured the piece and your hand stayed down?
Thanks again for your time and patience. I can imagine it's not enjoyable to relive the experience through all these questions.
Heal quickly!
Eric from Oakland.
hi eric,
i removed the guard because the stock seemed too small and the guard would have interfered. in addition to making a shoe pusher i will make a sled with top down clamps to make such cuts in the future.
while writing about this is not particularly pleasant for me, if my experience will help even one other woodworker avoid a painful and permanent lesson, then i do not mind in the least. i should stress that we should not fear any power tools but rather have a tremendous respect for them - they will have none for you. that means that we are responsible for our safety which means thinking about every cut before applying power. while some may disagree, i feel that i was more a victim of an accident rather than stupidity. i would feel much worse had i known better and still made the cut.
it is interesting to note that i run a computer shop and seem to have met at least one other woodworker as a customer each day this week who has either suffered much the same as i have or knows a close friend who has. in almost all instances they have admitted that they did something stupid to cause it - such as losing concentration and looking away during a cut, hurrying or reaching over a turning blade. it takes less than a split second ...
be safe,ken
Sparrowhawk
as a enthusiastic guitar player and woodworker (equally untalented in both, unfortunately) I commiserate with your experience. I know how hard it is to face the fact that you could lose a lifetime of commitment to one love, in a microsecond. Remember that Django Reinhardt (sp) only had 2 1/2 fingers on one hand and changed the world. You will get back to woodworking, smarter and better.
What type of guard did you have over the blade and were the anti-kick back paws in working condition? ( and my hand is hurting in sympathy )
> my guess is that the push stick in my left hand must have caught the blade which might have thrown my hand into the blade<
I'm sorry, Sparrowhawk. You have my sympathy. If I had to choose between guitar and woodworking it would be guitar but it would be a sad choice, and one I'm not ready to make at the moment. Thanks for sharing your experience. Your guess as to what happened would be my guess as well based on the clues we have, but I'm sorry it happened and wish you a speedy and full recovery.
Ed"Maintenance your hands away from my pile money,..." "Money," Pink Floyd, translated to German and back to English
I thank you for the explanation. The way I keep my fingers is by listening to how others had accidents, so your explanation is important to all of us.
FWIW to all, Ken's is the type of operation I fear most and the only one on which I've ever had a problem. It's the thin piece with the blade raised only slightly.
The danger with this is the low blade and low mass of the work piece. The blade not only is making an upward wind, but the teeth are rotating upward. As you push the piece through, any slight reduction of pressure or cocking of the piece will result in the saw blade grabbing it and spinning it around. That was the "crack" Ken heard. I"m sure that if he looks at the piece, he will see that that is exacly what happened.
I've had this happen to me twice, albeit without injury, and the reason for the lack of injury is that I use an ice pick to push which isn't going to slip. Rubber tips on a stick are bad news in my book. Even the rubber on my jointer push paddles slips so badly that I replaced with sandpaper. If you're going to be cutting small, thin pieces I think the ice pick is the only safe tool to use. Even notched pushers can slip and slide. I use the notched pusher, ( I wouldn't call it a stick) typically about 6" x 14" for heavy stock, but I would not want to use that for thin stock. EVER.
In 25 years, I've never had a piece get loose from an ice pick.
SparrowHawk,
Having just read your detailed accident scenario, I think that part of the problem was due to trying to use a pair of push sticks to guide the wood through the saw. Trying to watch the wood, and the blade, while separately guiding two push sticks probably led to your letting up the pressure on the outfeed push stick for a moment, or perhaps one stick slipped off the stock leaving it free to pick up off the table and get thrown.
I try to discourage people from using two push sticks to guide a board through a saw, having seen a few near accidents, and numerous awkward moments, when people were using push sticks in both hands. Unless the operator is very careful and practiced, the operation often looks like someone with little experience using chopsticks to pick up peas. The distraction and tension of trying to work with two sticks makes the operation less safe rather than more.
Another problem with push sticks, especially small ones of the type you were using, is that while they keep your fingers away from the blade, they really don't do a very good job of controlling the stock. The contact is basically just a single point, allowing the wood to pivot sideways easily or upward if the contact point is close to the edge of the stock. The soft rubber pads on your sticks could have made firm control of the stock even harder. Also, small sticks pressing down on the stock have trouble getting enough traction to also move the wood forward. This forces the operator to press down with excessive pressure, causing loss of control and sudden abrupt slips that can lead to a hand hitting the blade. In fact, this is a likely scenario with your accident.
For the type of operation you were doing, a "shoe" type of stock pusher would have been a better choice. A push shoe looks like the flat push blocks used on jointers with the addition of a small shallow heel at the trailing edge of the shoe to give a positive forward push to feed the stock. A small shoe is used one handed, but still allows complete control of the stock in all directions with only moderate downward pressure. An added advantage is that it is impossible for a board being held down by a shoe to rise up off the table and kick back.
Most shoes are shop made, there's an article on tablesaw safety with illustrations of push shoes in the October 1998 (#132) issue of Fine Woodworking
Good luck and swift healing, John W.
Mitch,
I think a lot of the problem stems form cutting 1/4" stock and its relationship to the fense. I have had accidents or near accidents almost every time I cut 1/4" stock. The two key issues appear to be warped wood and that little space between the fense and the table top. On several occasions I have noticed the front of stock will be about 3-4" past the blade and the leading right edge will grab on the underside of the fense....causing the piece to twist...
I have attached a piece of laminate to the fense which eliminates the gap between the fense and table top...I think that helps. I'd like to try a larger piece of laminate...maybe 3"x1" with the 3" side down on the table....and maybe have it end at the arbor. But, again, these are just guesses and I am not anxious to experiment too much with this stuff.
One more voice of condolence. I agree with FG that a push shoe is preferable to any kind of push stick. A featherboard probably wouldn't have made much difference in this case, but what about a riving knife?
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
A feather board would have done the job if installed on the fence, pushing down. Thats what I use.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
The table saw has got me twice,haven't lost any fingers yet. Sawed about half way through my thumb once with the band saw. Stuck my fingers in a router once making cove moulding and been nipped with a circular saw. I still have all my digits but the thing that suprised me most was the first time I tangled with the table saw. When you think about cutting your fingers or hand it's usually with a sharp blade like a knife,chisel, gouge etc. Just a slicing cut usually or maybe a puncture wound. What suprised me the most when I looked at my finger was that there was an 1/8 inch saw kerf across it, meat and everthing was gone. That's something I never considered happening. It was an eye opener to say the least.
I've used the ice pick technology for years with no problems. If I'm working with a really hard wood like some of the exotics,I make sure the point is seated firmly in the stock by working it around a bit before I push it through. Other woods ,just firm pressure is all that's needed to maintain contact with the stock.Be not afraid of going slowly. Be afraid only of standing still. chinese proverb
Sorry to hear the bad news. Making the sled is THE BEST way to go. It takes a short while to make. Made correctly it is invaluable and you'll wonder how you worked without it. My criticism of push sticks is the same as another person who responded. There is not enough surface in contact with the piece being cut. A wider, longer piece that can be held by your right hand alone would be safer.
A few years back I had a woodworking class taught by someone who taught at North Bennett Street School in Boston. He stressed repeatedly that when cutting using a fence to the right of a blade your left hand should not even be near the saw. I hope this tidbit is helpful.
I recently made a gallery for a desk with 1/4 " stock. I ripped one small piece and it scarred me to death. After that I cut everything with a handsaw and cleaned it up with a plane. I think smaller stuff really aught to be cut by hand or maybe with a bandsaw. If you aren't doing production type work , it really won't slow you down much.
I am very sorry about your hand. A friend recently cut off a finger and I sympathize with your discomfort.
Frank
>> I am very sorry about your hand. A friend recently cut off a finger and I sympathize with your discomfort.
Thanks, Frank, but my fingers are all fine; I think you meant this for Sparrowhawk. ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
hi frank,
thank you for your kindness. the fingers are healing but it will still be awhile before they are of much use.
i went out yesterday and bought everything i need to construct a crosscut sled complete with a couple vertical hold toggle clamps. i've been doing a lot of thinking on ways to minimize the risks involved in using the table saw. it's an invaluable tool in any woodworking shop but also one of the most dangerous. i make mostly boxes and clocks so my pieces are on the smaller side and a sled makes good sense. i can set up the piece and clamp it in place before turning on the saw. then while making the cut my hands will be holding the cross rail and about a foot from the blade. that's about as safe a way of making a cut as i can figure and the clamps should remove risk of kickback. hand work is of course the safest but i think it is important for me psychologically to go back to using the power tools when i can do so.
be safe,Ken
This may be obvious, but when you make the sled add a "protector" so that when the blade cuts through the back part of the sled it can't cut into a hand that is "misplaced". I've seen some sleds that were 3/4 ply with runners and with a simple 2X4 at the back for a fence. The blade cuts through that area quickly and it can be quite dangerous.
John
thanks john,
i was planning to make some sort of tail that the blade would cut into instead of simply exiting the back. also a plexiglas protector over the blade path.
ken
Edited 8/17/2003 9:48:24 AM ET by SparrowHawk
Perfect. And good luck with the continued healing. I can tell you from an accident I had about 3 years ago that things do heal and you can get back to woodworking without a problem. My "incident" was purely operator error and I really felt stupid afterwards. I won't bother everybody with the details, but suffice it to say I'm even more careful now than I was before.
John
Just an update in case someone else down the road has such an unfortunate experience and is interested in the outcome. It's been 3 weeks now since it happened and I was able to cut some wood and sand a bit with my ROS yesterday. Bandages are off but the fingers are anything but healed - that is going to take much more time. Right now I know exactly how Frankenstein felt. They aren't of much use at all yet but now that they are exposed to the air they are hardening which is a major step. I intend to at least begin to make my sled this afternoon and expect to be back in the shop regularly from now on. It's going to take some getting used to though ... two fingers are noticeably shorter than they once were by about 3/16".
Be safe,Ken
SparrowHawk,
That 3/16" difference in your reach will only have an impact when your trying to grab the last piece of pizza....just move your chair a little closer to the table...:-)
I've used oak runners on the sleds for years...but this year the humidity got to them several times so I bought the Incra tracts..and put an adjustable fense/cleat so that I can check and adjust if necessary in the future. ..
Hang in there Ken. You da Man!
Ed
"Tractors are for work, not play." Mississippi State University Extensions Service
Thanks to your report of your accident, I avoided one today. I had to rip a board that was about 12" square and 7/8" thick. I was setting the fence when I thought about your accident and remembered the time I tried to rip the side of a 4" square piece of wood and had it kick back on me. I got off with a bruise on my arm. Just lucky. The piece had a spiral cut into it with some red teflon from the blade in the cut. I brought out the sled and safely made the cut. I won't try to rip a small square board again without using a sled or miter gage if the board is big enough! Thanks.
Howdy Tex (sorry ... couldn't resist :+) )
I'm glad this thread caused you to rethink a cut and do it in a safer way. That was the entire reason for me bringing this up in the first place. If it can save even one other person from an unfortunate experience then my injury will have been worthwhile. Thank you for posting.
Be safe,Ken
SparrowHawk - I wish you a speedy recovery.
Hello,
On the TS sled I made I added a 4x4 block onto the back where the blade cuts through. It's about 5 inches long. It's attached with glued in dowels. I beveled the back corners, painted it red and wrote "hands off" clearly on it. It's a handy visual reminder to keep my hands away. Good luck.Keep away from people who belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.-Mark Twain
I did something similar on the sled I made except it's made from 3 scrap pieces screwed into the back that enclose the exit point of the blade. A modification to the norm that I made was the addition of a vertical hold down clamp so I never need to put my fingers in the sled while cutting - nothing like nipping them with the blade once to make you constantly aware of where they are at all times.
Be safe,Ken
I just purchased a GRR-RIPPER (Model GR-200) in hopes of avoiding this kind of problem. I haven't tried to use it yet. Has anyone had experience with this device? The thread on WoodSmith says it is pritty good.
You are lucky you still have the Fingers
Finger tips are SOOOO! sensitive for a long time after healing.
I bet you wonder why I know?
Wasn't from a kickback- I had a sliver between the blade and the throat plate " I had been ripping stock for 2 hours and in a daze" I grabbed it to pull it out and the blade jerked my finger tip in the blade Oh man blood was flowing really well.
I feel for you get some finger guards to wear you will hit them on everything.
I cut the tip of my left index finger and playing my Guitar "it hurt like hell the first few times" help to get my finger over the sensitive touch thing.
I have tried to make a drawing of a push stick I like to use- I seen Norm use one like it.
Sorry the pic . wont open
The push stick lays on top of the stock and at end I leave a stub sticking down to catch on the back edge of the stock. It has a upright handle kind of like the back handle on a plane that sticks up above the fence. I make mine about 16 in. long
I like it better than others I have tried. Ill get a pic with the camera.
Edited 8/8/2003 6:25:19 PM ET by Ron
Hope this works
I like this shape for a push stick I think it helps
What do you all think?
I prefer one with a bit more body, but yours looks like it should also do the job.
View Image". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
This looks pretty much like what I use ... but mine are made of 4/4 stock so that they're much sturdier. Mine also have the benefit of being able to be used for cutting very thing stock, say 1/8th of an inch. I simply let the saw blade cut through the bottom of the push "stick" and it still has enough body to keep the small piece down and in place as I go past the blade.
John
That's the basic shape I was alluding to in my posts. I don't have one yet that is that thin, but having a long "shoe" part and a handle design that puts your hand high above the table but the pressure out over the stock are keys. I've seen one that was designed with a guard also (wider body, obviously).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I use the thin one for -- thin stock. I have another made from 3/4" pine for "ordinary" use. In any case, two things I never do without are a featherboard and riving knife.
View Image". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
"I use the thin one for -- thin stock." Oooooo, I hope you didn't think I didn't know that, ROFL!! That Ryobi mid-wing slot comes in handy, doesn't it? Cool. Hope things are well with you!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks, FG, yes all's well here, except that I've been so busy at work I haven't had much time for w'working lately :(
Hope your nuptial plans are proceeding on target!
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Just like to suggest that this little piece of wood would have been better ripped on a bandsaw or, dare I suggest, a handsaw.
So many TS injuries seem to result when cutting little pieces that could safely and quickly be cut with a hand saw.
Norm!
Thanks a million for the picture you posted in message #46. I have the same saw as yours, and it had never occurred to me to use the miter table slot to attach a featherboard in the easily-postioned miter table slot. Thank goodness for the internet.
If you're using the BT3, you should check out BT3 Central for lots more jigs and accessories for the saw.
Best wishes,". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
I'm joining this thread late do to a weeks vacation.
Sorry to here about your injury Ken. Hang in there and heal fast, man, you'll be back at it in no time. Best of luck and skill returning to the guitar. Had to play guitar injured a couple of times week before last because of a booboo with a kitchen knife. Who needs the fretting index finger anyway.
Thank you for sharing this with all of us. The activity of this thread shows us all what safety means to us.
I like the push stick designs of the last few replies. The extra length provides great control and esp. holddown. I think I'll make a new one of those next time in the shop. My old one bit the dust.
I do the pretend practice cut idea too, it works.
Had my first real let if fly kickback in many years about a month ago. Long thin cut, not using a zero clearance insert, stock went down the slot at the end of the cut and flew out in several chunks. Scared the P out of me.
Enjoy, Roy
I just wondered if you are the guy I heard on the Sean Hannity radio program the other day. That guy said he had just had an unfortunate accident at the table saw, and I began to wonder how many of those could there be each day or week.
thank you all for your words of encouragement and sympathy. i am beginning to see that accidents such as mine are unfortunately more common than any of us may realize. i am running into at least one other woodworker each day who has had or knows of another who has had similar accidents. more often than not they tell me it was due to laziness or inattention but all agree it happens in the blink of an eye. even my pharmacist told me i was the second woodworker this month to have had a table saw accident and the other guy had over 50 years of experience.
i have firm religious beliefs that allow me to feel that this has happened for a reason and will turn out to be the best thing for me in the end. so rather than sulk about my misfortune i am looking to the positive that can come of this. not only will i be a much safer woodworker when i get back to making sawdust, but i have met a number of others locally who share the passion. this forum is a great way to learn and touch base with others woodworkers but personal contact is even better. this is giving me time to do a good deal of thinking which will result in better and safer ways to do some of the cuts i need to make. i will look into the use of ice picks to hold the wood - i've seen that done on a video someplace.
i get my bandages off this friday (2 weeks and one day after the incident) which can't come soon enough for me. i don't know which bothers me more ... the fingers or having my hand immobilized from the forearm to about an inch past the tips. there will undoubtedly be many weeks yet of building stamina and strength, but being able to move my hand again will be a real treat. and i have found it does have many uses that i took for granted before. try buckling a belt with one hand, fastening buttons, driving a stick or putting on socks to name just a few.
hopefully this thread will help us all take shop safety a bit more seriously than we did before and this discussion will bring new and safer techniques to light. several of you have mentioned this so this is yet another good thing that comes of the accident.
be safe,ken
SparrowHawk,
I was thinking about you yesterday and this thread quite a bit....I had a lot of 1/4" ply to cut for my current project. As mentioned before, I have had close calls with 1/4" stock almost every time I've cut it on the TS...yesterday I was nervous.
I did attach a melamine short fense that ended half way through the arbor...I modified my shoe type pusher so that the heal is less than a 1/4" deep. If you notice most pushers call for a 1/2" heel which does not support 1/4" stock very well.
Anyhow, I have never handled 1/4" as easily or as confidently before. So wanted to let you know your comments have had a positive effect on me. I'll say a prayer for you..
BG, that melamine addition -- is it to keep the 1/4" material from slipping under the fence? If it is, then IMO it should go the full length of the fence. It's not like a cut-off stop to be used when crosscutting with a miter gauge. My experience has been that it's the back part of the fence that the stock wants to slip underneath. Am I missing something here?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm not making light of this topic, Lord knows I've had a couple of close calls that made me a safety fanatic, but I wanted to share this story with you.
I'm a guitar player and have always worried that someday I'd lop of a couple digits on my left hand and never play again. I was telling this to a musician friend of mine named Ann Rabson, (if you like blues please check her out!) anyway she looked at me and said, "Honey, do you love music?" I told her I did,
she said, "if you loose a couple of fingers and can't play guitar, buy a trumpet! loose a few more... buy a trombone"
Though I'm still careful, I've never worried about the guitar again.
Cheers.
Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
FG,
Your correct, the short fense (ie. ends at arbor) is for keeping the stock from going under the shop Fox classic fense (Bies clone). I agree with you the stock tends to slide under the bies fense after it has gone past the saw blade. With the piece melamine ending at the blade arbor the stock never gets close to the bies type fense..( the melamine is about 3/4" thick)...I think that is what you were missing...??
I've read this post with interest and other than the technical aspects of which and what shape push block to use, I think the greatest benefit of it has been to remind everyone to avoid complacency. I had a similar accident about six years ago, not in the shop but in the kitchen. I've been cooking for years, even worked in a couple of restaurants while in school, and am very aware of the right and wrong ways to handle knives and slicers.
On this particular Friday evening, I was cutting the rind off of a block of cheese and knew I was using a dangerous technique but told myself that I'd be extra careful. Quick as sparrowhawk's accident, split-second, and blood was pouring on the floor. I sliced into the end of my index finger and although I didn't lose the tip, I did spend several hours in the emergency room.
Sparrowhawk, I vividly recall the dull throbbing and the "big as a sausage" feeling and also recall finishing off the bottle of wine I'd planned to have dinner. The wine made it easier to go to sleep that night but the pain lasted for a while.
That was the last time I took a shortcut when I knew I shouldn't. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that it'll be ok if you're "extra careful just this once".
i'm really glad this thread has people thinking even a little bit more before making cuts - that was the intent. if this discussion can save even one person from going through this miserable experience then it will have been worth the effort. and the thing is that we will never know that it helped because the future accident will be avoided. as has been mentioned here quite a bit the greatest enemy we face is complacency. it will be a very long time before i get to feeling that way again if ever and i guarantee i will never forget this. i would hope others take all this to heart BEFORE something goes wrong and thereby perhaps avoid joining the sausage club.
be safe,ken
We might say that you gave your fingers that we might keep ours . . . ;-o
Dear SparrowHawk,
Very sorry to hear about your accident and thank you for your kindness in sharing the experience about it.
A few years ago I posted about the use of two ice-picks in-lieu of push-sticks, just as Boatman now mentions.
They are hard to beat specially in small and slender pieces, although I use them practically for most wood pushing.
The ice-picks need to be sharp and held with as much verticality as possible. There are several adavantages in using them.
1. They are very difficult to slip, except if sharpening is way neglected, or a foolishly low angle is used to push with them.
2. They use a minimum of space, so it's more difficult to get them into the blade than any other pusher means.
3. Because of their slenderness, optimum visibility is allowed as to the workpiece and the blade and the ice-picks.
4. They are easy to grasp firmly and so they should be. They provide much better feel when pusing than woodsticks or shoes. One holds them so it'd be the last thing you want to turn loose: FIRMLY gripped.
5. They are not suitable for pushing huge heavy timber. For that, though, a push-shoe would be better, anyway. I actually use two masonry trowels that come with red rubberer soles, and to one of the two, I screw+glued across an oak strip in the back so it now has a heel to catch the trail end of the heavier boards. I use those at the router table as well.
6. Ice-picks are EASY to get and use with no modification, and take no undue space, and I find using them actually attractive. I keep them in an open box on the table-saw all the time. Their use is easy to master, but practice with scrap is recommended to learn their use. The more they are used, the more natural and appealing it is to use them.
When you get back to woodworking, please do consider trying them.
Am sharing this again in case some one wants to learn about this benefit, and with the interest in the well-being of every one, not for arguments.
mbl
I still maintain that the icepick, properly held, is the safest method of all. With virtually all the other methods mentioned, something can still go wrong. Of course, nothing will save you from stupid mistakes, but you only get to make them once . . .
With the icepick, you are pushing down, forward and toward the fence all in one motion. Best of all it can't slip. Your hand is pushing AWAY from the blade, unlike with a push bar where it is pushing TOWARD the blade. Even the smallest, thinnest stock can't get away from you. At first it may seem rather improbable, but after using it for a while, you realize that it gives you tremendous control over the workpiece. I've never had kickback with a pick, but plenty of them with pushers.
Another good method is a push bar with two brads sticking out the bottom for a sure grip front and back. But with any other kind of pusher you can't control the direction of force -- its strictly forward, not toward the fence. And then there's where the risk of kicback comes from.
There's a new thread that started today entitled "Safe Push Sticks". The gist of the posting is that anyone who uses an ice pick for a push stick is out of their mind and says so in inch tall red type.
I defended the practice, perhaps others may want to also, I think it is very safe way to work that is still poorly understood.
John W.
boatman-
Looks like you and I are all alone in this ice pick discussion. I agree with you.It's all about control. I can push downward ,forward and as well as against the fence. This is especially helpful if you happen to be ripping a reactionary piece of wood and it tends to want to drift away from the fence. With a push stick,you can't control it. It slides out from underneath the pushstick but with the icepick I can keep it firmly against the fence. To each his own I guess.Be not afraid of going slowly. Be afraid only of standing still. chinese proverb
I'm with ya too. Ice picks are the only kind of push stick you will find at the pattern shop I work in. Why use something else when the best is so handy.The Professional Termite
Guess I'll weigh in on the issue of ice picks. I use one, from time to time, and have for years. But more recently, based on a comment here, I made a pusher out of a 5/4 by 6" by 10" long pice of softwood scrap. Cut a notch nearly all the way through the bottom, leaving a catcher at the end. No handle; true low tech. I slide it right over the blade with the stock. Recut when it's nearly gone. The control is excellent, even for one who for years was an ice pick guy. You icepickers might give it a try. I keep mine tall enough so that the right side of my right hand stradles the fence (a unifence with a 1" by 4" board screwed on). That way if I slip, my hand is caught on the fence, and doesn't go down towards the blade. Feels pretty comfortable pretty quickly.
Alan
This topic is generating a lot of discussion and thats good to get different ideas. I thought I would through mine in. I have cut/ripped many pieces of thin stock and I have to admit I am not real confortable with it. But I came up with a "push stick" that makes it alot easier and safer. Mine is not much different shape that many that I have seen listed here, see my crude drawing. It is about 15" long, the handle is attached with glue and dowels (not metal) and is made from scrape soft wood. The difference is that it is not thin, mine is 2" wide. When I cut, I raise the blade slightly higher than the piece that Iam going to cut, and just let the blade cut into my push block.
With this method I have control of both the piece that I am cutting and the off fall piece. With weight on top of both pieces I don't get any kickback and my hand is far from the blade. When the bottom gets too many grooves in it, I just cut a new bottom on a bandsaw.
Almost the same thing happened to me when I tried to trim a little off the edge of a watch blank I was making , but it didn't get my fingers. Threw it into my chest, (I have a permanet size of the piece on my right chest). I attribute it to the short length of the work-piece. Now I do not now try to trim short pieces, at least not on the tablesaw. Now I start over!
Jim in MI (& FL)
Sorry to hear about your accident.
Having had a spot of difficulty with a tablesaw myself, I would offer the following:
1) If there is some physical sensitvity, drum those fingers on the kitchen table while having the morning coffee...it's unpleasant at first, but nothing special after a couple days.
2) Get right back in the workshop and cut some wood on the same saw. Even after almost 30 years, some sounds on the saw raise the hair on the back of my neck...
thanks for your support. i think a lot of people may tend to fear the monster that bit them but the table saw wasn't at fault here so i don't blame it. i don't blame myself either ... it was just an accident. so i will get back to cutting lumber as soon as i feel i can safely use the hand. i'm also not one to baby injuries - as the saying goes, no pain, no gain. of course there is a certain form of pain that is not good but we all know the difference by now. ;+)
actually the hand is healing very quickly and i'm looking forward to getting this appendage and all the sutures removed in 2 more days. it will still be a couple weeks before it is much use to me but it will be a tremendous relief to have the hand free to move. we don't realize just how much we use both our hands until one is decomissoned. yesterday my shoe came untied and i had to go find someone and ask them to tie it for me ... sort of embarassing. sigh.
be safe,ken
"... it was just an accident."
Let's not try to write this off; working with the FAA and crash investigators has taught me there's no such thing as "accident", this was an incident and every precaution should be taken to make sure it never happens again. Incidents are either the result of mechanical failure or negligence. Since nothing mechanical went wrong, I'd say this was negligence and needs to be avoided next time. Was there a splitter and/or blade guard being used? That's seems the best and safest option to try first.
Molton,
I think it was a mechanical failure in the sense that cutting 1/4" stock on a TS, using all the standard equipment and methods can not be done safely. Too many times when the stock gets past the blade a few inches it tends to grab underneath the fense....trying to undue the 'grab' you turn the stock into the back of the blade...and all hell brakes loose. None of that explains how the fingers got pulled in however, unless he did not notice he 'grab' and kept pushing and the uncut stock turned into the front of the blade.
So I add a short fense and others use ice picks, etc.....not exactly standard equipment...certainly has not been tested... My conclusion, mechanical failure.
So if an aircraft crashes because the pilot landed too hard was it mechanical failure or pilot error? If a house burned down because a switch was wired wrong is it mechanical error or electrician error? This was clearly operator error/ignorance. Had he known about 1/4" stock having these issues, he would have taken the proper safety precautions as noted by others here. It is not the machines fault or the stocks fault. I have performed this same operation or worse 100+ times with no injury...I always use a splitter, overarm blade guard and proper push sticks.
Molton.
But if the plane crashes because the runway was too short for the plane..what is that? or the Concord crash in Paris...wasen't that some debris? I'm mean, I really don't know...
I'm glad you've not had an incident with 1/4" stock with over 100 cuts. I have had about 6 incidents with maybe 40-60 cuts...6 too many in my book.
An airplane is built to 6 Sigma standards....I wonder what are proper push sticks...lol
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to educate. There's no such thing as an accident. Can you think of any accidents that couldn't have been prevented with a little extra care/money/engineering thought?
But if the plane crashes because the runway was too short for the plane..what is that?
Mechanical failure if the brakes failed. Pilot error if he came in too fast. Engineering error if the plane was too heavy for the breaks. Design error if the runway was too short. All of these are avoidable. Not "just an accident".
or the Concord crash in Paris...wasen't that some debris?
FOD (foreign object damage). Someone didn't do their job walking around the runway looking for debris. Not "just an accident".
I have had about 6 incidents with maybe 40-60 cuts...6 too many in my book
Do you use a splitter?
An airplane is built to 6 Sigma standards....
Not true. There has been airplanes assembled with some 6 Sigma hardware, but never a truly complete 6 Sigma aircraft. I don't think it will ever be achieved. Even if every component of the aircraft was made exactly to its design, whose to say the design is correct? There's no such thing as 6 Sigma designs...there will always be incidents as a result of poor engineering and/or operator error.
Guys, guys! Accident , incident , whatever! Based on what Ken wrote in his detailed and illuminated earlier posts, he's not saying it was a random accident that cannot be prevented in the future. He has plans to prevent it via use of sled, etc. I dare say, we covered virtually all the bases with regard to preventative tactics, which is probably why we're now discussing airplane construction/design standards (or whatever), ROFL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
>I think it was a mechanical failure in the sense that cutting 1/4" stock on a TS, using all the standard equipment and methods can not be done safely. Too many times when the stock gets past the blade a few inches it tends to grab underneath the fense....trying to undue the 'grab' you turn the stock into the back of the blade...and all hell brakes loose. None of that explains how the fingers got pulled in however, unless he did not notice he 'grab' and kept pushing and the uncut stock turned into the front of the blade.<
BG,
I read this and all your other posts (I read the whole thread a couple times) and I don't think you've got your fence adjusted correctly. If I had a quarter inch gap between the bottom of the fence and the surface of the tablesaw, I wouldn't accept it.
I have a tablesaw that is much much cheaper than yours (I'm not even going to tell you who makes it, but it is a contractor-style saw) and it has a fence that rides on rails on both the front and back of the saw (similar to the Shop Fox classic fence). I just went downstairs and checked it and it moves through the entire range of motion riding between 1/32 and 1/16 above the table. You can't get a dime in there. Not an accident. There are eight points that the rails for the fence attach to the table, 4 in front and 4 in back and I have meticulously tweaked them to make the fence do like that. I could rip 1/4 inch stock from now to October with no worries. I have waxed both the rails and the table top and bottom of the fence to make it work good. I have used the tablesaw for 5 years with no probs and have tweaked and adjusted it to get every possible ounce of performance out of it. Sorry, but I think you need to adjust your fence. To make a statement that it is unsafe to cut 1/4 stock is ridiculous.
From the clues left in this thread, I do not think Sparrowhawk had kickback with the workpiece itself, but rather from the push stick hitting the back of the blade. I think that levered his hand onto the spinning blade and also caused the loud CRACK, with the exposed part of the pushstick slapping the table. I note one of Eddie (Aust) early posts which said use long push sticks and expect them to get chewed up. That's true, but the chewing up comes from them hitting the front of the blade. Keep pushsticks off the back of the blade! They will kickback just like stock!
As for "Ice pickin'" - for me that's always going to be a style of playing blues guitar a la bluesman Albert Collins. I won't be "Ice pickin' with the tablesaw.
And one last thing - it IS the pilot's fault if you run out of runway! You have to know how long the runway is, how heavy your plane is, where the wind's coming from, and how long it takes to get it whoaaa-ed up, even with water on the runway! I have sat on aviation mishap boards (as a juror, not as the pilot under investigation!) that well and truly proved this.
Ed
"Tractors are for work, not play." Mississippi State University Extensions Service
Ed,
I will check the fense. Last week I went thru the fense manual and I don't remember there being any adjustments to the fense relative to the issue. However, it could be that either the back or front rail (or both) are not set poperly. Its a good suggestion, I'll see what can be done.
I don't have any problem with calling this an incident as opposed to an accident. I do have a problem defining this incident as negligence (sp?) ...which presumes either a protocol was not followed or common sense was not applied. The fact is that almost everyone that has responded to SparrowHawks thread has made a suggestion to mitigate the risk associated with cutting thin stock...but none of us know for sure what the right solution is...so there is no protocol or common sense...but there does appear to be common recognition that this a high risk operation.
Furthermore, as you suggested, we can only 'suspect' what happened..so were not even sure what we are trying to fix.
Good luck with the fence, BG. I wasn't trying to be mean with my comments, I just figured I've known you on this forum for a long time and it would be better to tell you what I really thought rather than "blow sunshine up your butt." (old Navy expression). I think if you can get the fence down closer to the table, by lowering the rails or whatever, you wil like the saw better. Good luck and be safe. Ed"Tractors are for work, not play." Mississippi State University Extensions Service
Ed,
No, I did not percieve any meanness but rather a thoughtful response which was helpful. I always enjoy reading your posts.
I went down to the shop this morning armed with the manuals (Griz, Shop Fox) and a pocket full of change. I did not want to run the risk of losing a dime so I tried to test the gap between the fense and TS top with a penny. The front of the fense (ie. where the handle is) was high..about an 1/8" gap so I lowered the rails and the fense is much tighter to the TS top....so your comments were very timely.
I also noticed the Shop Fox manual suggested that when cutting laminate you should use a aux. fense that is flush to the TS top.
I also agree with you that this forumn is of little value unless people say what they think...In my case, many times people will jump in and help correct my misperceptions..which is very helpful.
Now, I do dislike FG's boyfriend...he's not helping at all.....lol.
BG, he has an excuse -- he helping safely save us from all those stored up chemical weapons. Hope you'll find it in your heart to cut him a little slack, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
i rather resent the term negligence in reference to my injury. that term clearly implies that i was consciously aware of all dangers and intentionally ignored them. if you read my explanation i am sure you will agree that such a premise is unfounded. while i may not have realized all the dangers, i did take what i felt at the time were reasonable precautions to avoid injury. the numerous posts in this thread have enlightened us all to alternative ways to make such cuts. my intent in starting this discussion was to remind people of safety issues so they might avoid such unpleasant results. does placing blame on an individual further that goal?
ken
Well said, Ken!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm not preaching to you because you screwed up, you have your wounds to remind you of that. I'm preaching about your comment "just an accident" as though you're already beginning to make light of the whole situation. Was a guard and splitter installed? If the answer is no, then the incident was negligence on your part. I don't think you can claim ignorance if the guard and splitter weren't installed. I just don't want you or anyone to walk away from this with a "sh!t just happens" attitude because you may have a worse injury next time.
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