Hello all,
I’m looking to purchase a table saw. I’d like to try to make some of the projects that I see in the various wood working magazines http://woodstore.woodmall.com/misfur.html, I will also be working on some home improvement tasks.
Constraints:
1. ~$500 initial budget. I’ll add enhancements (blades, jigs, etc. as needed).
2. 10′ x 11′ clear space in my basement workshop.
3. Portability would be nice. Something that I can break-down when I need to free up some space for non-wood working related projects (the wife’s hobby is “leaded glass”) in that work area. Or if I want to pack it all up and go to a friends house and work on some projects for a few weekends, in which case I’d leave my stuff there for the duration of the project.
If I really get into woodworking, the wife has given permission to convert the garage to a workroom and upgrade the saw, in a couple of years.
Questions:
1. These are the saws that I’ve seen so far.
– Ryobi (BT3100) $299 -seems to have a lot of extras bundled in already. There’s even a “special” offering enhancements if I purchase by the 31st of this month – tomorrow. Not portable.
– Rigid (TS2400LS) $499, looks somewhat portable.
I haven’t seen these yet, but I plan on visiting the dealers today and tomorrow.
– Bosch (4000-09) ~$500. Recommended by This Old House magazine. May be portable.
– Delta (36-680) ~$600. Recommended by the Woodcraft representative. Not portable.
These two saws are at or above my budget. If it’s the right thing to do I would put off my purchase for a few months to purchase one of these, but I don’t know what I’m getting for my dollars over the Ryobi and Rigid.
2. Good documentation. Who in my price range offers clear documentation on how to use their saw?
3. On the Internet I’ve found a Ryobi (www.bt3central.com) site. Do Delta, Rigid, and Bosch have similar followings of people that have started online groups?
4. I’ve been looking at some of the general online forums and others and it seems like most table saws need initial and occasional adjustments to keep things lined up. What saw in my price range won’t drive me crazy while I try to get it to cut things straight? Or are they all equally good?
5. Who will offer the best service? If I’m offered an “extended warranty” should I get it?
6. Can someone point me towards reviews and comparisons of the saws that you suggest?
7. Is it safe purchasing this kind of item via Amazon? Does anyone have any experience in dealing with them on these types of purchases?
Thanks in advance for all your suggestions.
Replies
I really doubt you'll be able to make mission furniture from oak with the underpowered tablesaws you describe.Those are useful for trimwork mostly.
With tablesaws,as with most things in life, you get what you pay for.
Still, I'd avoid the Ryobi-it has an almost useless fence. The Ridgid is sold through Home Depot, and I'm sure you know their service. Bosch is pretty good, a good starter saw.Again, the furniture you desire to make is made with more powerful and accurate cabinet saws.
If portability is a really big factor, I'd focus on the jobsite category of saws...the Ridgid 2400, Bosch 4000, DeWalt 744, PC 3812. For top performance in a wwing saw, a contractor saw offers the most saw IMO in your price range....a saw like the Delta 36-680 you mentioned. What you'll get is a quiet belt driven induction motor that will last for decades, a full size standard cast iron table...some with cast iron wings, some with steel, and the potential for a top notch fence...some have great fences, some adequate. Other saws in your price range include the Grizzly G0444, Bridgewood, the new Orion made Craftsmans, Ridgid 3650, Woodtek, and Jet. These are the type of saw that over 60% of wwers use. They're often upgradeable, and many parts are standard sizes....like fences, wings, miter gauges, jigs, motors, etc. They're powerful, perform well, are reliable, strong, and offer sufficient mass to be very stable (250-300#). They also hold value well, and are an easy resale. The extra table depth is a very welcome feature. A mobile base can be added to any of them for portability. The Ridgid 3650 comes with a built in base, but the saw has some other issues (do a search for recent discussions on it). The new line of Sears saws in the $500-600 range are really mini cabinet saws. Their trunnion design is different than a standard contractor saw, and the motor is enclosed in the cabinet saving space. The cabinet mounted trunnions hold adjustment better than the traditional trunnions and are easier to align. Sears does offer an extended in home service deal. (they go on sale alot, so be patient if they seem steep)
The BT-3100 is a bit different than either of these categories. It's more a compact saw with legs. It's not as portable or as rugged as a jobsite saw, but has a similar universal motor which are quite loud, and a smallish table like the jobsite saws. The BT is a good saw at it's price point, but has some lighter weight construction issues, and can require some knowledge and attention to keep it aligned. There's also a Delta TS300 in this price range, but has some of the same issues as others in the price range....small and loud, and often get outgrown quickly.
Ridgid does have a website with several active forums. They're not dedicated to one tool, nor are they quite as biased as the BT forum.
Customer service is difficult for us to offer useful insights on. Our personal experiences are so limited compared to the whole picture. Most companies seem to offer good CS, but it can be hit or miss with any. Both Ridgid and Sears seem to catch their fair share of flack, but Sears obviously sells a whole lot more stuff than any other name, so that's not a surprise to hear a high number of complaints. Their new TS's are getting alot of positive attention lately.
Good luck!
Edited 12/30/2004 1:42 pm ET by sliversRus
Edited 12/30/2004 1:45 pm ET by sliversRus
I'm not sure which Rigid saw model has the arbor problem, but you should definitely check it out and not get that model until they come with a correctly machined arbor.
The portability issue kinda complicates things in the short run. As far as your wife's working area for the leaded glass goes, if you had a contractor saw, you could simply lay a sheet of MDO or MDF over it, and she could work on that. If you're intent on portability (into a truck, for instance) then one of the work-site saws is pretty much the way to go. You want to be careful loading and unloading so that you don't throw the trunions out of adjustment.
If you truly will be able to upgrade in about two years, it'd be best, IMO, to go with an excellent job-site saw (Bosch?) and then buy a contractor or cabinet saw in a couple of years. There are ways to work with the limitations of the job-site saw and still build furniture, it's just more time-consuming to get set up (additional stock-support surfaces, for instance). You don't say what other tools you have for milling wood, or how much you'll be working with rough stock. One big problem with using a portable saw with a universal motor is the lack of power for ripping large pieces of stock (don't look at the HP spec, it doesn't mean anything). Unless you have a bandsaw to handle that task, you'll probably spend a little more money buying lumber (smaller dimensions) than you would if you could do all the milling yourself.
When I was using a bench-top saw (little $99 dude) I found it would cut great when I put an excellent blade on it -- the blade cost about the same as the saw. You'll want to have specialty blades that cut efficiently for the task you're doing at the time (e.g., a 24-tooth blade for ripping, rather than using an all-purpose or combo blade).
I suspect most of the work-site saws won't handle a full-sized dado set. Something to think about. Are you sure you want to schlep (sp?) your saw around doing work for friends?? Once you start that tradition, you may find it hard to get time for your own projects, and most rental yards have a portable saw your friends could rent (I'm not trying to be a Scrooge, just sensible). I tend to agree with silversRush about getting a contractor saw -- the G0444 for example (Grizzly). Depending on your transportation, I suppose you could rig up a ramp that would enable you to load and unload a contractor saw without too much hassle. (Just don't drop it! Don't ask me how I know)
Documentation: I think you're asking a little much here, LOL. You'll need a good table saw book.
Amazon: There are pros and cons. I'd buy from a store-front if you can, but the job-site saws are small enough, it wouldn't be too huge a process to return it if there's something wrong. I've bought one power tool (Bosch CMS) and several smaller items from them with no problems, but I buy locally if the price differential is small.
Ryobi: Some luv 'em, most hate 'em. I'd spend my $$ on something else, especially if you're trying to lessen the amount of aggravation involved in keeping the saw tuned.
Adjustments: Hopefully, the saw will be in alignment (blade to miter slot) when you get it. Virtually all the contractor saws are a bit of a pain to align (you can buy gizmos to help with this), but once it's aligned, it should stay that way for awhile, as long as you don't knock the saw around.
Extended Warrantee: Hmmmmm, who offers them? Sears, maybe, but who else? Probably not necessary.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
bought the Ryobi BT for my father 3 years ago - I borrowed it for an off site job and once for a shop project where I could leave it set in one configuration and my saw (of another make) in another -
I like it -
as already noted, it's not appropriate to shove in and out of a van for on a daily basis, and resawing 3" oak all day long is beyond its capabilities.
To my knowledge, it's the best features/capability per $ of anything out there - -
get it, and you have $200 to spend on another tool - anything else on your list?
wdetmar
in that price range, you might as well look at the Craftsman line too. I would even suggest their version of the Ryobi, as I think Sears is better at customer support and parts than my HD/Ryobi experience.
I have the BT3, predecessor to the current model, and yes, it is a good value for the money. But I bought it for one reason - it has an honest to goodness riving knife. If Delta or Jet made a saw with that feature, I would have gone for it in a heartbeat. I had just seen the results of a kickback incident, and wanted something safer. Sliding miter table and router mounting option are nice too. It does require some tweaking and care, but you can't expect any saw not to, at that price.
If you get a benchtop/portable, consider making a workbench cabinet for support that lets you set up and remove the saw when you need to. The top would provide outfeed and workspace for other benchtop tools.
We had a passionate "discussion" about the Bosch 4000 a few weeks (?) ago, you might want to search the archives and see what was said. A good starting place.
With a $500 budget, you might want to look at the used market.
Five years ago I purchased a Rockwell/Delta 10" Contractor's saw for $200 or so. Granted that I had a 400 mile (round trip) drive to pick it up, it was worth it. Considering that the guy I bought it from tossed in a triple-chip rip blade, I got a real bargain.
If you're not in a rush, you can find stuff like this. The rip fence might not be what you want, other things may not be just so, but they can be replaced when you've got some wiggle factor with your budget.
Good luck,
Unless you plan to use a lot of sheet goods in your projects, get a bandsaw before you buy a tablesaw (see recent FW articles on setting up a shop). The "portable" bandsaws are too small for anything bigger than a doll house, so you'll want a beefy 14" saw at a minimum, but you could build or buy a sturdy mobility kit and it won't take up much space when parked in the corner.
If you get into woodworking, you'll want a real table saw someday, so I wouldn't wast money on a toy.
This ought to raise some eyebrows (but a valid recommendation nonetheless IMHO);
You may want to consider getting the Festool circular saw w/their straightedge ... it beats everything in the portable catagory. Fits into the price requirement (maybe even some leftover???) ... AND, I have spoken to 2 pros that absolutely swear by it. They say that it performs as well, or better than any TS that they have used, and it is a heck of a lot safer (no chance for kick-back).
There are several other benefits to this tool/approach, but this post ought to at least bring it onto the table for various views, discussion, etc. on the matter ....
FWIW.
Back to lurking. lol
-Peter T.
Wow, you sure are getting a lot of "unusual" advice.
I bought a Delta table saw 36-650 which I couldn't find listed as a current model. It probably relates to the 36-680 you are looking at. The thing that impressed me about this saw was that for an inexpensive saw the fence was not a piece of junk. I have used this saw for about a year and it is still easy to use and true. I used brand named blades such as Freud and have not had a problem cutting anything from sheet goods to 4/4 maple.
It is the fence that sold me. If you look in the stores you will see fences that are not true when locked down. You will also find fences that have plastic parts that will break when pressure is applied.
I have always been happy with tools purchased from Delta and Porter-Cable.
Sounds as if portability is important to you and if so, my choices would be between the Bosch 4000, Porter Cable 3812S, and the DeWalt DW744. All three are good saws and any of them should be able to handle the projects you have in mind. I wound up with the Porter Cable 3812S. Electric brake, soft start, good on board storage for the fence, miter gauge, wrenches, etc, decent dust collection (you can hook up a shop vac to the outlet on the rear of the saw), comes with a stable folding stand and can handle a stacked dado blade. The manual is a decent one with good assembly and adjustment instructions. You can view it online .......... http://media.ptg-online.com/20030916102052_En912933-09-15-03.pdf As for tablesaw techniques I'd get a copy of Kelly Mehler's The Table Saw Book....... http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070552.asp ; most manuals don't offer much in this area. As to buying I've bought many tools online with no problems though you always run the risk of shipping damage and the time factor rectifying it- buying locally still has it's advantages. Here's a link to a review of 10" portable saws from the Journal of Light Construction........ http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/41d5db5d0023881f27177f000001059b/UserTemplate/82?c=a769df8f3c698bfc6b56996acab77a97&p=1&t=1
Before buying my Unisaw a few years ago I used a Craftsman contractor's saw for years with pretty good results. It was in about the $500-600 range, and I got much of that back when I sold it on ebay. I do not know much about the current line of saws, but I found that Craftsman offered the most for the money (power, weight, features) at the time in the intermediate priced table saws. Also, at the time, Rigid table saws were clones of the Craftsman. I chose Sears because they often have great sales (and they'll tell you when an item will be going on sale if you ask), and I also got another 10% off as a Craftsman Club member.
Ran across this on Wilke's site, thought it might be in your range.
http://www.wilkemachinery.com/OnlineCatalogDetailResults4.tpl?SearchDetail=3039423153100&PreviousCategory=Bridgewood%20Tilting%20Arbor%20Table%20Saw&RecNum=0
In case the link doesn't work, it's their Bridgewood Model TSC-10CL 10” Left Tilting Arbor Table Saw.
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