Table Saw Decisions … PM vs. SC
chipsndust
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I’m trying to decide on which table saw to buy. I’ve narrowed the search to the PM 179002K or the SC 35905G. Both have 3HP motors, left tilt, & 30″ fence systems. The SC has a granite table, and is +/- $1K less than the PM. I’m wondering how good is the SC fence. It looks like a Biesmeyer, is it as good? Is the PM that much better to warant the addtional $1K in price.
Your thoughts would be helpful
Chipsndust
Replies
The SC fence is very good. I haven't used a Bies, so I can't make a direct comparison. The SC, though, has UHMW sides which appear to be bolted on and should be easy to replace if necessary.
The PM is similar to the SC in that both have a single poly belt rather than the 2 or 3 found in more expensive models. The PM advertises widely-spaced trunnions which the SC has on its more expensive models, though those on the granite model are solid enough. The PM has a cast-iron base with built-in casters. For the SC a mobile base is separate and costs about $60. The dust-collection in the PM is better, and includes a chute under the blade. Other features such as riving knives are pretty similar. You do seem to get a little more on the PM, but whether it's worth the extra $$ is up to you.
SC customer service is the best for me. I had one or two minor problems with my SC saw (not granite) and they offered to replace it and set up a new one in my shop, without being asked to do so. PM doesn't have much of a Canadian presence, so I don't know how their service compares.
Jim
Thank you for your time and thoughs
Chips
I have not looked for some reason.. And will probably not.. Are they really a grand difference in price?
$1400.00 vs. $2400.00
"I'm wondering how good is the SC fence. It looks like a Biesemeyer, is it as good"?... CND
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How good is the Steel City fence?... The best on the market IMO!
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" It looks like a Biesmeyer, is it as good"?... CND
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It does look like the Biesemeyer which I had and thought was the best fence on the market. Until... I got the Steel City Industrial fence. It basically is the current Biesmeyer with a few exceptions that make it better. It has 4 nylon runners that adjust with an allen head plus the two screws to adjust left right as the Biesemeyer. But you have to lift and turn the Biesemeyer upside down to adjust those. SC put the heads on the outside so it does not have to be turned upside down which is a pain.
The Steel City fence glides on the rails about 3 time faster than the Biesemeyer. If you nudge it you best run to the end of the table to catch it so it doesn't launch. The Biesemeyer drags and requires you maintain wax on the rails to keep it moving well at all times.
The reason is the Biesemeyer touches the table on the rear creating drag where the SC fence doesn't touch the table-top at all. The nylon adjusters in the front lift it there. And the rear of the fence is lifted off the table by a bolt mounted to the bottom with a nylon runner that actually slides on the rear rail. And smooth as silk I may add.
Steel City was smart enough to design their fence after the Biesemeyer but not the new one. The Biesemeyer original had rear bolt with nylon pad also but dropped if from the design to save cost or whatever?
If you want to change faces.. you simply turn it over and pop the plastic plugs on the bottom of the fence. Turn the nuts that hold the face on and it slips off as the faces have keyholes that correspond to those nuts and bolts. You can have a face off in about a minute.
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"Your thoughts would be helpful".. CND
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I was fortunate to demonstrate with the Steel City black granite saw last week during the International WW Show in Atlanta. The saw is solid as a rock. Well.. it should be as the top is granite. :>)... The trunnions are well made and mounted well. The controls are smooth and the riving knife is quick release. Ron Lee of Leecraft dropped by the Show as he has just made zero clear phenolic plates for the saw. They will be available pronto and shipped to SC.
With the weight there is no vibration and we were set up on a carpet with padding underneath. On concrete or solid floor it even gets better. The saw is pretty quiet (compared to the Unipsaw I sold to get the SC 5 HP hoss I just purchased).
Do I think the PM is more saw for $1 K more? No... unless you just want to have the PM name on the side of your saw. I can't imagine why as the SC will do everything the PM will do and for less IMO.
Good luck and if you have further questions.. ask as I am quite familiar with the saw and all SC saws at this point after demo'ing them all week the the Show..
Sarge..
Edited 8/30/2008 1:12 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks Sarge !
I'm going to buy the SC this A.M. Your explanation and opinions ' sealed the deal '. I've sought the advice and opinions of you folks for nearly every major tool purchase and have Never been disappointed.
Again, many thanks
Chips
You're welcome and BTW... when you have friends over to the shop and they just stand in front of the saw and stare at the top.... just comment to them.... "solid as a rock" as I got to do to about 2000 people at IWF who did just that. Great way to start a conversation.
I forgot to mention that most cast iron has to be stress relieved for quite and period and that is still no guarantee it can't contain stress if the carbon doesn't get dispersed evenly. Your top was stress relieved for 5 million years before the slab was cut and water jetted to shape and then ground to perfection.
Enjoy...
Sarge...
Will do... Just came back from the tool store, my new ' rock solid' saw should be delivered next week sometime. However we couldn't find a SC mobile base ?? The salesman said the SC steel top bases are sized differently than the granite top base??? He said that he will call SC on Tues. to check,since he couldn't find one in their catalog, or on-line. I'm surprised to say the least. Thank goodness there are other base manufactures.
Chips
They have one as we dropped all saws on a Steel City base with foot lever to elevate and drop. He should be able to get one out when he calls on Tuesday unless you decide to go otherwise.
And another BTW.. the new zero clearance insert has a groove in the bottom. But when you drop it in to cut your zero slot... the blade will slightly touch the top of the bottom groove. Ron Lee (up the street from me in Gainesville, Ga.) could not make the groove deeper because of the way the insert mounts in the granite.
So... lower the allen head screws so the insert sits above the table. Clamp a board over the top of the insert from front to rear on the table and then power the saw and raise it. When you have the slot cut... lower the allen head screws to put the insert back to table level.
BTW.. I do believe that the granite has a special 10 Year Warranty now and I was not aware of that at IWF. Check the SC web-site as someone mentioned it was there. I will check with Jim Tues. to see also when I call him to get some rubber pads for my leveler feet. 6 of us pushed my saw from the booth to the rear door where I loaded my saw. We were going in about 40 mph and we forgot to raise the rubber feet. Friction makes rubber go away just like on auto tires. ha.. ha...
Sarge..
Edited 8/30/2008 2:31 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 8/30/2008 2:32 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks again Sarge... also for the heads up on the zero inserts as well. I'll need to replace the stock ' dado width' insert w/ a zero ASAP
I thought the stone-topped saws required logs and an Egyptian work gang to move. ;-)
Interestingly enough... I learned how to walk a TS off a pallet onto a mobile base the week before the Show at IWF. 4 of us had to assemble about 30 + machines and we did it alone for the most part. But... but.. when it came to the granite tops we had to have two people walk it off onto the pallet.
The granite weighs more than twice as much as a cast iron top as the cast iron is not as dense and the top itself is only about 1/4" thick. But the granite top is solid 1 1/2" and you don't worry about it moving once on the ground. No vibration either as that weigh dampens any even though I found none in the same saw with a cast iron top.
Now I could have used that Egyptian gang last Wed. to help me get the SC 5 HP screaming eagle off the back of my pick-up. Took 5 of us to lift it up but I walked it down alone with the aid of a ATV.. lawn tractor ramp I made with the aluminum tail-gate clamps and 2 x 8 x 8 SYP ramps. 550 lbs. as I inched it down about 2' a shot holding the rails and frankly.... praying I didn't go off-center. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Wot! no pictures Sarge? I know both hands were full, but you could have held the camera between your teeth and clicked the shutter with your tongue!
SC makes several versions of the mobile base, depending on the weight of the saw. Standard 10" models use # 80101, the 3-belt deluxe use # 80102, the industrial # 80103, and so on. They all look much the same -- clones of the Delta. My cast-iron version of the granite model takes the 80101, but the granite is about 45lbs heavier, so it may need the 80102, though the sawbase is exactly the same. Unfortunately the website doesn't specify -- hasn't been updated yet.
Glad you didn't damage any essential parts moving those five Budweiser Clydesdales on your own ... make my 3 horses look like Shetland ponies. ;^)
Jim
You are correct on the bases. All he really needs to do is call tech support Tuesday and they will give him the model number he needs.
I've got my saw about 80% at this point. It was already assembled but I cut the rails down to cut 40" right instead of 50". I mainly rip and the few panels I do are usually under 36" as I cut them down with a circular. I really don't use much ply and just prefer not to deal with full sheets on the TS when I do.
Still got to make a zero insert.. overhead dust and add an extra miter slot on the end of the left table so I can use my spring-board left. I haven't decided on how I will handle the over-head dust yet but... I may not use the system I used on the Uni-saw. I had to use the saw to cut down the right extension table and then take the rails back off to attach it to the inner rails after I end-capped the end I cut down.
But... she is a hoss that will eat anything thrown at it. I will probably do a small review on the saw as I found some surprises with this fella I really wasn't expecting. The good news is the surprises were all good. All I will say at this point is this saw is extremely well made and has some outstanding tolerances.
Regards...
Sarge..
You're way ahead of me already. I'm stalled here waiting for a replacement saw -- can't do any modifications on one that's going back.
There's a video interview with Scott Box on PW from IWF where he shows an optional router-table left wing for the granite-top saw. That noise you hear is my teeth grinding -- only reason I bought cast-iron over granite was to add a router table to the saw. Did anyone from SC say if a cast-iron version is in the works? I'd sooner wait for the real thing than bodge together a makeshift of my own.
Cheers, Jim
Yeah... I was standing behind the camera-man (good place for me) listening to the interview. Got to meet several magazine folks from various mags at the show. Spoke to Asa C. from FWW when he dropped by.
No mention was made of a cast iron extension table for the standard cast iron top. But... I will mention it to Scott Box or Jim Box (his brother) on Tuesday as a possible idea. They love to hear what people are asking for.
BTW.. it was not released until the following Sunday after IWF but... did you see the new Steel City table-saw Mobile base. This thing can put your saw on job-site from the extreme tip of N. America to the extreme tip of S. America. All you have to do is find a power pole with 220 V.
I will include a picture below...
Sarge..
Yep, nice base. But the tabletop's kind of high up, and so's the price of gas.
Jim
Former sky-diver (5 Army clubs) and client pays travel expense... got the bases covered. hee....
Sarge..
Sarge,I take it that's your new 5HP saw on the truck! Congtrats. Let's see some pictures when you get it into your shop.
The Eagle has landed, jointerman. Picked up some drops of moisture falling from trees (after a light rain) on the way home last Saturday. I had to coat it with thick Boeshield T 9 for several days and leave it under a tarp outside on the truck. The few rust spots that occurred have been cleaned up.
Just fine tuning details at this point. I cut the rails down to do 40" right in lieu of 50" and the extension table had to be cut down and re-capped. New short fence as I gave mine to the young man who purchased my Uni-saw. Already added the twist-lock 30 A plug and modified the dust port to accept my 6" direct from cyclone piping.
Just some leveling on the floor.. add a new tape on the fence to correspond to the short fence.. a new over-head dust pick-up and whatever mods I do to the over-head guard. I will add an extra miter slot on the left outside table to use my spring-board with.
So... hope to finish by late today or tomorrow and will get some pictures at that point with a small review of what I have found with the saw.
Sarge..
Sarge
MOVE it into a safe place!
I brought the 550 lb. monster down by myself last Wednesday, Will. With the help of an ATV ramp I might add. That picture was after I un-covered the tarp off it. I did have to leave it up there under a tarp for 3 days as it poured rain here from the hurricane that passed through. I coated the top with a whole can of Boeshield and I mean a whole can as it was cake about 1/4" deep. :>)
I'll get some pictures out by the end of week I hope. As usual I'm doing some modifications. Well.... more than some. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
But Sarge I thought those SC saws were perfect? What are you doing to it? :)
Doug M
The saw is about perfect ( about as close as it gets) as you will read about in a few days if you chose. Just adding a few of my "creature features" that allow me to go full speed ahead without falling into the mind-set that I cannot use a table-saw safely without having a riving knife and a zillion $$ "moisture meter" attached. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Sarge, I figured that but could not resist teasing you about it. You do bring up a good point, I wonder what would happen if you dropped water on the saw blade while it was spining. Would that be enough to trigger? Humm, Sometimes when doing a lot of rough work I do tend to get a bit hot so a drop or two of perspiration has been known to land on rough wood (Not good wood). I wonder what would happen. Most likely nothing I assume but.......
I guess if you can afford that saw you should be able to afford A.C.?
Doug M
It's an excellent point, Doug. And not one that will be brought up by the proponents of as it could add some tarnish to an otherwise shiny piece.
Sarge..
Jim... thanks for the info. The salesman said the same thing about the website, so he's going to call SC on Tues.
Chips
Sounds like you've already made your decision. Let me lend you some of my experience. I have a PM 66, about 8 years old or so. If I were buying a saw today, I'd buy an older used Oliver.
Since that is not your question, I'd tell you honestly that I'd save the $1000 or so and get the Steel City. They are well regarded by all that have used them, and I can personally attest that the PM's aren't the tools they used to be back when they were made in Tennessee.
You'll probably have to do some fine tuning to any saw you purchase, so you might as well save the $$$. I spent more hours than I should have leveling the cast iron extension wings, and aligning the miter tracks to the blade. I also seem to have a fence that frequently realigns itself out of whack after I close up shop for the day.
If I were forced to buy a new cabinet saw for under $2500.00 today, I'd get the SC with the granite top. It looks like a well built machine, and not dealing with surface rusting would be great, to me at least, working in a high humidity environment.
Jeff
Thanks for your insight & opinion.
Chips
Just curious - why did you rule out the Sawstop?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
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