Greetings;
New to the discussion group here. Dennis Shinn is the name. Bellevue WA is where I’m from.
I’m in the process of “furnishing” my shop. I’m a wood worker wannabe at the present, mostly interested in turning but all facets of the craft are fascinating and I hope to get involved with as many as possible.
Just took delivery of my new Delta Unisaw this afternoon. After unpacking and starting to assemble everything, I was having trouble getting the left extension wing flush with the table top.
Now I don’t have any really high-caliber straight edge available but I’ve got a couple two-three two foot aluminum levels and checking them against my jointer infeed table, found one that was danged near perfectly straight. At least as straight as the jointer bed was flat.
Using that aluminum level, I found that:
The front edge of the saw table was about as flat as could be. No light shining under the level anywhere across the front.
The right side of the table has a slight crown, about 1/64th of an inch. Sorry, don’t have any feeler gauges to check this stuff, either.
The left side of the table is as flat as the front; perfect according to the limited scope of me measuring device.
The real dissapointment is the back edge of the table. There’s about a 1/32″+ depression across it. That, coupled with the left edge of the table and the edge of the wing not being machined to a perfect square edge results in the outboard edge of the wing rising up to where there’s practically a 1/16″ valley across the back.
Edge to edge isn’t in the game plan since my “straight edge” isn’t long enough to reach both corners diagonally. Suffice it to say, I suspect they would yeild sobering results as well.
So – the question is …. am I being unrealistic in expecting better quality control out of Delta for this machine? Does Delta make available the tolerances to which their equipment is machined and if so, where can I get that information? If this top is out of spec, I’d like to be able to have some ammunition to work with when I go back to the shop where I bought it on Monday.
I bought Delta on the advice of several serious and professional woodworkers with whom I’ve had the pleasure of discussing such things. Powermatic 66 was out of my budget; General wasn’t available locally. These are the top three that I had been considering.
Thanks for any advice…
Dennis
Replies
Is the main table flat or is it the wings that are not flat?
Nigel -
The main table has a depression (1/32"+ across the back.
Having worked at Wadkin Woodworking machines where we built large table saws. The table top was machined to .0015" per foot ie almost dead flat. A table .030+ out would have been rejected in a flash!! I just checked my Dewalt 746 and it flat within .006" per foot. For what you paid I would be a little unhappy. If its the steel wings then they are tough to line up.
Hi Nigel (et al)
Thanks for the input. Yes, I'm not too thrilled with what's sitting in my shop (oops, I mean garage - the wife might be listening) right now. I'm reluctant to spend the time to finish assembling the thing since I'd like to get it "fixed".
The wings are cast iron. I figured, all things being equal (straight and flat) at worst I could shim the table wings flat with the top if I had to. Maybe that's a wishful dream??
Dennis
My Unisaw (1994) is dead on, table and wings. I just found out that Delta has shifted production to China, and that's probably why.
This can only happen because they're not using the right machine to flatten the castings. If you look at the machine marks on the top, you'll probably find that it was ground in two or more passes when it should have been ground with a larger machine in only one pass. I can see on my table that the wing and top were ground together on the same machine bed as the swirl marks are continuous.
The price of these saws has pretty much remained the same for over 10 years. Cheapening production costs is the reason why this has happened. Bottom line is that we gotta move up in price these days if we want good quality, otherwise just accept Chinese quality.
The question is, how much do you think that will affect your work? The most important point is whether you can reference the blade being perpendicular to the table. If you had a hollow adjacent to the blade, that would be a real problem, but being behind it, I don't see where this would have much affect.
It's a huge hassle to send it back, so why don't you continue setting up and see how it works out? As long as everything else is square, you'll probably find that it is meaningless. Let us know how it works out, okay?
Dave of Fla.
Hi Dave -
Thanks for the input.
Delta shifted mfr to China, eh? Odd it says all over the place "Made in USA". Not that this was *the* deciding factor in the choice of Delta but was a consideration.
I did decide to go ahead with the assembly to see what else I might find.
The blade didn't fit on the arbor. Really. I've got a dozen or so 10" 5/8" blades and every one of them fit just fine. But not the one that was furnished with the saw.
The guide tube for the Beismeyer fence had some scratches on the bottom. OK, cosmetic stuff, sure. But at the cost of this stuff I think we have a right to expect a little more thought to fit, finish, etc.
Automated machine processes has reduced the cost of machine work considerably over the years. Maybe not enough to balance out inflation and so forth with respect to the price of this unit being stable over the same period. But enough that I think we should be able to do a little better.
The holes in the fence guide tube were literally full of paint. Made starting the attachment bolts difficult so chased out each hole before final assembly.
The whole machine seems to vibrate (very slightly) more than I would have expected of something this massive. Granted its been sitting in the crate for some time and t he belts probably have some pretty severe set. I'll turn it on tonight and let it run for a time and see if the vibration goes away.
Most of my whining is over cosmetic stuff, I realize. But after a while it adds up. In the end I have to admit that this is more saw than I'll probably ever need but it's nice to think I have something to 'grow into'.
Dennis
Dennis,
Re the vibration - it is just amazing how poor the quality of v-belts come supplied on equipment anymore and just how much they contribute to vibration - even the short ones on your saw. I have replaced v-belts with the link-belt variety on a number of pieces of equipment over the last several years with a tremendous reduction in vibration.
Rich
Rich, I know this should be a new thread, but I have to ask about the link belts. I put one on a brand new Delta contractor's saw and the motor seemed to bog down while ripping 3/4 maple. Do I need to take another link out or go with the pulleys you can get with those belts? I put the original belt back on because it just didn't seem right.
TCKLINGER,
You probably need to get the belt tighter than you now have it.
It is on a Delta and a Grizzly contractor saw that we had the most dramatic improvement in vibration. With the v-belts, the saws were not useable. With the link belts, they are almost vibration-free! We can't tune out all the belt movement in the link belt-equipped saws, but it's much less than the v-belt's and none of it seems to get to the saw table!
We bought the link belts from Grizzly.
No problem at all ripping 8/4 hardwood (ATB carbide thin kerf blades).
Rich
Edited 8/12/2002 5:22:39 PM ET by Rich Rose
you are correct when you state Delta quality has dropped. The biggest gripe I have is with the nuts and bolts which seem to strip or snap with great ease. The amount of grease on the items is over kill too.
All -
Since the original question was "what are the tolerances allowable for a table saw top" (or words to that effect), I'll post the latest/greatest from my dealer.
The factory rep they contacted said they routinely ship the saw tops with .008 (8 thou) dish across (left to right) in the tops to "compensate for the bend introduced when the extension wings are installed and to compensate for creep over time due their weight". (not a direct quote but again, words to that effect).
Since this issue has become something of a holy grail chez moi, I'm picking up a precision straightedge this evening along with some feeler gauges to see what's really cookin'. I'm pretty sure a matchbook cover is thicker than .008 and it sure looks like I could slip one in under a straightedge.
To be continued.
Dennis
I've got an early 50's Unisaw also. The table is definately not flat.
However, with all the usual factors conspiring to negitively skew my
work ,that, has not been a contributor.I've used the saw about 25 years.
Short of an Altendorf ,most machinery "right out of the box is" little more than
a kit.They all need tweeking.adjusting,getting the hang of and maintenence.
Most woodworkers I know pride themselves on their ingenuity .I suspect it's
from doing near perfect work with less than perfect tools.
Good luck!
Glendo.
Vibration! Yike, now that would piss me off. If you have the three belt drive model, it could be belt set tho I've had mine set for a long time even outside with no problem. Trying changing blades. Most of these saws run absolutely smooth.
As for the China comment, I should have said "shifted some of their production . . ." don't know for sure about the Unisaws.
I've been real pleased with mine with the only real complaint is that silly dust chute which is nearly flat. And why don't they put them on the left instead of under the extension table so I don't have to get on my hands and knees under the table to clean it out with a stick. I Sure hope it works out for you.
BTW, I was looking at some old FWW's. That saw was priced at $1099 in 1990 and you paid, what? About $1500. Know what the price of a car was then versus now? More than double!! And they say theres no inflation. Only if your not looking. Adjusted for currrent dollars, that saw is problably cheaper now than then.
Dave of Fla.
OK, vibration in the sense that I can feel when the saws running (grin). Acutally my suspicion was confirmed when I turned the saw on and let it run for about 15 minutes so the belts got limbered up. Stood a nickle on edge in one corner of the table and it stayed there! Lot smoother running than my old Craftsman contractor's saw.
Picked up a set of feeler gauges tonight and checked out the deviations in the table. One corner is close to .014" below the rest of the table, about the size of a postcard, roughly. The rest of the table is very close, in some cases a few thou over the maximum the Delta rep told my dealer was permissable (.008")
All in all I'm feeling a little foolish about making such a fuss about all this. Thanks to the suggestion of clamping the extensions into submission, I've got them lined up nice an flush. Which also managed to correct a little of the sag in the back end of the table. Installed my best blade and tested out the cut quality. I think I can live with it. (grin)
OK, I'm satisfied and greatly appreciate all the comments and advice from you who've been there/ done that. I'm much further along on my voyage to ... where ever this takes me.Dennis
Dennis, you picked the right time to make a "fuss" -- when the saw's new and you can do something about any problems! I didn't see the info yet about clamping into submission, but I believe that was part of the procedure the tech guy told me about. I'll check out the thread here again before I foget! Glad to hear everything's well.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forest ...
To "clamp the extension into submission" you need a heavy flat piece of iron. Like a piece of 1/4" thick angle iron. Just clamp across the table and extension close to the joint with some heavyweight clamps. On the Delta with the Biesmeyer fence, you need a pretty deep throated clamp on the front to clear the guide tube, etc. I had the best luck getting the front as flush as could be, tightening up that bolt, then the middle, then using the clamping operation for the back bolt.
Your mileage may (hopefully) vary.Dennis
Hi Dennis,
First off, an aluminum level is far from the ideal tool to use as a straight edge. My interest was piqued when I first read your post, I've got two Unisaws in my shop, one 1955 vintage, one from the '70's (Rockwell). I've never even bothered to checked them for flatness, till reading your question, so this afternoon went to the shop and checked them with a 24" precision straightedge. The 1955 machine was pretty good, dipped in the center of the main table casting by about 1/64th" The 1970's machine was all over the place, wowed out approx 3/64th's on the main casting, much worse when reading across the extension wings, I'd say more than your 1/16th"
2nd: I've never even bothered with table flatness, cause it really doesn't matter, (flame away for those who like). I think it's basically an internet driven myth. You might get better flatness with the wings by shimming, etc, or spend alot of time replacing parts under warranty, but you're searching for milling machine tolerances on (relatively) inexpensive woodworking equipment, and in all likelyhood, you'd get the same results, regardless of what cabinet saw you bought today.
That's my Humble opinion
Greg
Greg, I think your's is a quiet voice of reason amidst the paranoia.
One of the best answers I ever heard to the "how flat is flat enough" question (for a tablesaw) came from a professional woodworker who said, "so that eggs don't roll off." He went on to note that when you're working with a living, breathing material (wood), you can sometimes see it begin to warp the moment internal stresses are relieved as it comes off the outfeed side (thus one reason for riving knives). Even if you cut it perfectly straight and flat, just wait overnight and let a weather front roll in: your perfectly cut wood will have changed dimensions more than the tolerances of your tabletop
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Hi Gregg -
Thanks for the reply and the reassurance (of a sort) that I don't have a total boat anchor on my hands.
Agreed, my aluminum level is no match for a precision straightedge which I was careful to point out in my original post. But given that's all I had to work with, I checked it against the only thing I had any confidence in as far as flat or straight is concerned - my jointer table.
I don't argue the fact that this saw is, in reality, a consumer commodity and not in the same class as those costing correspondingly more for the quality and precision they bring to the game. My question really hinged on what level of quality one *should* expect on this or any saw in it's price/target market category. Having read a few reviews of table saws in the past, I was under the impression that I could have expected more/better with respect to flatness of the main table.
Guess not.
Lucky my brother is a machinist and I can have it surface ground to +- .0001 (hahaha)
Now you've got me wondering why table flatness is less than it's cracked up to be. What leads you to such a conclusion? Again - be aware that I'm just an enthusiatic newby when it comes to this stuff.
Dennis
Dennis,
If you ever want to unload that boat anchor, I'll gladly take it away. ; )
To address your questions, As for what tolerances each manufacturer has, I don't know, but do recall a very old FWW article discussing them, along with a tour of Powermatic and Rockwell plants, (i'm going to try and find that issue, if only to satisfy my own curiosity)
Seems to me. different machines require different tolerances, based on the different roles they have. Jointer tables & fence = very precise tolerances, much more so than a table saw. The infeed and outfeed tables act as reference points for the stock as it passes the cutterhead, any bow or twist will be transfered to the work piece. The function of the tablesaw top is actually quite different, mostly to support the material being cut, a big floppy sheet of plywood for instance, doesn't really care that it's held precicely flat, only that it's held safely. The only area of concern for precision would be in the immediate area surrounding the blade, (which is mostly the throat plate), as well as the straightness of the rip fence, when ripping. If flatness were such a concern, wouldn't there be articles in magazines about hand lapping the throat plate flat?
Oh, and by the way, the flushness problem with the wings, there's a trick to it, little grasshopper. You'll need a short, straight piece of scrap metal (like a 2" scrap of angle iron) and 2 C clamps. 1st, get the 3 bolts finger tight. 2nd, get one end perfectly flush and tighten that bolt good and tight. 3rd, move the wing till the middle is perfectly flush, then tighten that bolt. Now the far end will be way out of alignment. Draw that end flush with the table using the C clamps and the piece of scrap metal to bridge where the extension and main casting meet. (sometimes a paper shim under the "high" side might be needed) Tighten the last bolt when you've got it the way you want it. Cast iron is really quite flexible, you will see.
Greg
Hi Greg .....
I'm felling a lot better now having had your (and the other) input. I realize that the table saw is a much "rougher" instrument than say, the jointer. But to explain my anal-ness about it ....
Right now I'm deeply inolved in turning. Mostly segmented stuff. I'm fascinated with the process of coopering up things like coffee bean canisters, sugar bowls and the like. As such, I've been using a router in a router table to mill 15 degree angled staves for my 'stuff'.
My current project is a custom carving mallet for a buddy with a hickory handle and babinga(sp) "staved" around the head. (this was his choice, not mine ... never turned babinga but willing to give it a try).
In the past I've made mallets by gluing up 9 square pieces and extending the centermost piece out for the handle. Usually maple for the head and hickory for the handle. For this babinga thing, I wanted to mill the head pieces @ 30 degrees to get a consistent grain exposure all around vs having face/edge/face grain kinda thing. This means the center piece would need to be milled hexogonal to fit in the center, of course.
Now the head pieces need to be really, really,... mean really accurately milled along with the handle and the whole thing has to be centered up with more precision than anything I've done yet. And no, I didn't buy the table saw just to do all this crazy stuff but I was hoping to be able to rip the head pieces in long lengths then cut them to length for glue up around the handle. (make any sense so far?). No doubt the router + a 30 degree bit will be the pivotal operation in all this. But I wonder, given the degree of variation in the table I have, if I could expect to get the kind of precision needed for something like this.
Guess the only thing to do is give it a go! Finally got the entire machine together (half past midnight here) so will have to wait 'til tomorrow to crank the beast up.
I should have thought about using an angle iron to align the side tables. Used short lengths of hardwood in a similar manner to align fence table which worked quite well. Didn't realize cast iron was bendable.
Thanks a bunch for the input, Greg.
Dennis
Edited 8/12/2002 3:33:32 AM ET by DENNIS02
Hi Dennis, greetings from another Northwesterner! (Bainbridge)
I can't contribute to the discussion re: flatness particularly, but am wondering about the procedure you used (or will use) to install the cast iron wings. I recently bought cast iron wings for my Jet contractor's saw, but haven't installed them yet. Was told by the Jet service tech, who so kindly bestowed the cast iron wings on me, that many people have problems installing them and often conclude there's something wrong with the wings when there isn't. What directions do you have for installing your wings?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi FG -
I don't know if this is the proper proceedure but ... since I'm all by myself with few neighbors around that lift anything nuch heavier than a fork, I've figured out how to unload a 950lb Powermatic lathe and this Unisaw (in the crate) by myself. Granted I've built a nifty chain hoist under which I can back my trailer,.... but I digress.
The extension wings for this Delta aren't chicken feed when it comes to weight. I'd be hard pressed to hold one flat against the table in one hand while trying to line up the bolts and start a nut with a lock washer. So - I let the thing sorta hang vertically so I can hold it in one hand, insert the bolt, push it up to the table casting (where the bolt will hold most of the weight vertically, all you have to do is keep it pressed against the table) then start the nut on the other side.
Work the nut on by hand until it's as snug as you can get it finger tight. Now you can swing the table up, holding it more or less level, so you can insert the bolt at the other end and get the nut started, running it up by hand as well until it's as snug as you can get it with your fingers.
Now the wing is somewhat stable and will 'hang' there by itself while you finagle the middle bolt in.
Note - the first "vertical hanging" operation has to be somewhat oblique on the right side since the arbor tilt wheel is in the way if you let the extension hang totally vertical (on this Delta). Thus you have to hold it sideways above the tilt wheel for the first bolt installation.
There was enough slop in the bolt holes that there wasn't any problem with bolt & hole alignment.
I drew the two outside nuts up just enough for friction to hold the wing in place but loose enough so I could tap it (with a wood mallet) lightly to adjust for flush with the table proper. That's when I discovered the table flatness issue: If it was flush in the front and back, it wasn't flush in the middle. Flush in the front and middle, it wasn't flush in the back. Etc., etc., etc. Flushness *was* tested with a good, straight, stainless steel rule. I've got three of these latter and checked each against the other edge to edge and they're good enough that I can't see any diviation in their edges when held together against the light.
Anyway, hope that's some help.
Bainbridge, eh. What kind of work do you do? Sorry I'm new here and haven't caught up on many discussions but I do see your presence in several.
Dennis
Dennis, am I correct in thinking that you've not contacted Delta about your concerns re: flatness?? If this is a brand new saw, and it's seriously out-of-flat, they should make the product right. There's really no reason to settle for an inferior machine.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forest girl....
Yeah, it's a brand new machine. Bought it at Eastside Saw. They're going to meet me at the shop (my shop) with their tool service guy. When I show them how easy it is to slip a matchbook cover under the straight edge, then we'll start getting serious about replacement. No, haven't contacted Delta ... yet. Figgered it would be better to give the dealer a chance to respond rather than blind siding them
Dennis
as another beginning woodworker, i can definitely sympathize with your delta concerns. i bought a unisaw in the winter and it cost me a sizable portion of my very small student budget. after 8 months, i am still disassembling and adjusting the machine to try to get things right..(the wings and top have the warp previously mentioned, the biesmeyer fence doesn't fit the machine well)...i have found delta customer service very disappointing (it took them 3 months to get back to me regarding a small motor problem). i will definitely check out jet or powermatic for my next machine.
due to my inexperience and my preference for the joy of simple hand tools, i don't really know what to make of the need for a perfectly flat top. both schools of thought make sense to me. my frustration has built to the point that i am considering just paying someone to set it up for me (even though i don't have the money), but i'm sure i will tinker with it myself until i feel it's right. has anyone else had problems with the fit and finish of their beismeyer fence systems? my fence is not square to the top surface of the table and i can't seem to get front guide rail level with the top surface of the table. any advice would be much appreciated.
-eric
p.s. i am still using the delta blade that came with the limited edition package i bought..has anyone had any experience with this blade...is it any good?
Eric-
The only real problem I had with the fence installation was the amount of paint on the threads making the bolts that hold the guide tube to the front rail hard to start. When you installed the front guide rail, did you find the little template used to set the horizontal leg of the rail equidistant from the top along the front edge? It was packed in the box with the table top instead of the box with the guide rails for some reason. Using it, I didn't have any trouble getting the rails aligned with the front edge of the saw.
We both could have paid a lot more money for a table saw than we did and still not be assured of getting anything flatter than what we have. Last night I finally got my beastie to the point where I could actually cut some wood so I took a 2x4 doug-fir scrap planed flat on one side, set the blade as square as I could get it and made a few test cuts. Took a couple adjustments to get it really square gauging the fence side of the workpiece each time. Once satisfied, ripped another piece about a foot long, flipped one side end for end and laid them on the jointer table.
No runs, no gaps, no errors.
I haven't dealt with Delta at all on this issue - just my local dealer. (Eastside Saw here in Bellevue). At this point, all I would have to do is take the saw back and they'd give me full credit for an upgrade if I was so inclined. I can't say enough about their customer support. A good dealer is worth their weight in (insert prefered name brand) saw blades.
Dennis
yeah, i have that little fence template guide..i think my problem is trying to adjust the extension table and front fence rail with the saw on the mobile base (that base is great but it make setting up the saw so very very very difficult)..i was outside tinkering some more earlier tonight and i think (hope) i am making slow but steady progress.
-eric
I'm starting to think I missed out. My DEwalt 746 went together slick and easy. No forcing, pushing, shoving and the only grunting when We got it out of the truck!!
> ....My DEwalt 746 went together slick and easy.
You're no fun anymore. (grin)
Dennis
Eric -
You need a bar clamp across the table to hold it (lightly) while you line everythig up. Do you have a good 6+ foot straight edge to put across the saw and table for alignment? Once you get the side table flush with the top of the extension wing, just use the adjusters on the table legs to bring it up or down so everything's flat across the top. OK, as flat as possible considering.
By the way, what looked like a crack big enough to throw a cat through turns out to be about .010". Be aware, id you didn't read my earlier post: Delta says (to my dealer) that .008" is standard deviation and they routinely dish the tables that much to compensate for the weight of the extension wings. I never heard of cast iron creeping over time but after this experience I believe in the tooth fairy.
Dennis
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