I just purchased a few old but never used James Swan chisels on ebay — at least 59 years old. Tanged paring chisels, square, not beveled. Four arrived today, and although they have no handles, they look brand-new. I bought them to be users in the shop, not for any collectible value. I haven’t sharpened them yet, but looking forward to trying them.
Have any of you purchased any of these chisels? If so, how have they worked for you in the shop?
Replies
Among my motley collection of chisels, I have two or three Swans. I only wish they were in the condition yours are!! LOL They work very well for me and seem to hold an edge quite well.
Mine were BEAT UP when I got them, as were most of the rest of my "rat pack" chisels but with a bit of TLC they responded very nicely!
I'm sure you will enjoy using them!
Regards,
Mack
"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
I've looked at those--particularly the socket ones, but they always sold for way more than they were worth (or more than I wanted to pay and thought they were worth). Post back after you try them, please. Tom
If they're not beveled, these would be classed as firmer chisels, not paring chisels. Doesn't mean they won't work well as paring chisels, but thought it worth noting.
It may be worth your while to carefully check the marks on these chisels and accurately date them. It's unlikely something that got that much exposure on ebay is really early, but because of the total collapse of the antique tool market, it's possible.
Early James Swanns are highly collectible, and an early, unhandled, unused set may be worth a lot of money a year or two from now - as in way more than a new set of Blue Spruce paring chisels cost.
Here are photos of the 3/8" I received, showing the maker's mark:
Edited 4/29/2009 3:56 pm ET by drllucas
Here are three others, with maker's mark:
Edited 4/29/2009 3:58 pm ET by drllucas
Here is the last one, 1/2"
d,
image 932-4, bottom chisel. it appears to have been badly ground near the tang. is this so or am i seeing things?
nice looking tools. if you do get a blue spruce trade, i have a set of blue spruce dovetail chisels and like them very much.
eef
I noticed the difference when I bid on them, but did not know if some Swan's were ground round below the tang and some square. It doesn't seem to be unfinished, so it may be intentional.
I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to say anything for certain on the dates of your tools, but to say that you've an antique set of chisels in absolutely unheard of condition would be an understatement.
I did a quick Google search for the James Swann logo dates, and came up with this page:
http://www.davistownmuseum.org/bioSwan.html
It's got a lot of interesting information. One implication is that your tools could be at least as early as 1911, because they match the logos from the 1911 catalog closely. They could still be quite a bit later than that, though, but you'd have to find someone that really knows their stuff about these.
And... There's an organization that can help with that - the MWTCA (Mid West Tool Collector's Association). It's an nationwide organization despite their name, and the contact info for your local chapter is likely to result in getting you in touch with someone that really knows Swann. They may also be able to tell you what your tools should be worth (the e-bay price doesn't count - tools are selling for far, far below their market value on the site right at the moment).
The MWTCA webpage is http://www.mwtca.org/
Personally, I'd hesitate to handle these and use them. I've no objection to using old tools - quite a lot of them in my shop are antiques. But finding anything pre-war in the kind of condition that you have is really fairly rare. You might easily be able to talk someone that's a collector into ordering you a superb set of Blue Spruce paring chisels in exchange for those.
Thanks for the information, very helpful.As I am a user and not a collector, if anyone wants to trade five LN or Blue Spruce for these I will be glad to do so! :)
I would imagine that the Swan chisels that you purchased were from a hoard that was discovered a couple of years ago in a Boston hardware store. The owners had bought up closeout stock from out-of-business makers for years and sold them in this store until it too went o-o-b. I have one of them, similar to yours, that a spun up a handle for and put it to work.. I find it about the same as other quality chisels of that era. I remember the back needing a fair amount of flattening and the bevel was rather low at about 20 degrees. There have been a bunch of these chisels around the market recently. Someone suggested that they were not old production, but more probably wartime.
Thanks for the information. I haven't had time to get to them yet, so I hope my experience with them is at least as good as yours. I will need to make handles for all five chisels -- if I can figure out which box has my lathe tools since our recent move.
The selling price on eBay is about as close as it is possible to determine the true fair market value of most objects. You have a willing seller, and a willing buyer. That is what by definition determines the fair market value. It may not be reflective of what the antique market was getting several years ago, and may get in the future. But, it is definitely reflective of today's market.
Indeed. That's why there's very little of the high-end stuff showing up on e-bay. They're aren't many willing sellers at these low prices, and there's a feed-back effect - buyers looking for those high-end collectibles get tired of continually trolling e-bay and finding nothing, and sellers get tired of listing things and paying listing fees only to have those items not come close to the reserve.
This is one reason why there have been very, very few Norris planes listed on the US e-bay site over the last 5 months unless they're absolute junk that the seller's just trying to get out of their sight.
It's also why I'm seeing a whole lot more 30-day "Buy it now or Best Offer" listings.
The good side to this, though, is that it's helping out the traditional sellers and auctions - it's perhaps one reason that Clarence Blanchard noted in the editorial of the last Fine Tool Journal that the "tool market is still strong despite economic conditions". That's a bit of salesmanship - even at Brown prices are quite low, but I doubt he's seen as much of a crash as e-bay has.
"It may be worth your while to carefully check the marks on these chisels and accurately date them. It's unlikely something that got that much exposure on ebay is really early, but because of the total collapse of the antique tool market, it's possible."Collapse of the antique tool market?
What makes you say that?
"
Collapse of the antique tool market? What makes you say that?"
Most collector's quality items have been de-valued by about 1/2 to 2/3ds, though it depends on the rarity of the item. As an example, just about any Ultimatum brace made by Marples, even in so-so condition, would bring about $600 on fleabay a year ago. One would be very lucky to sell the same tool for $200 now.
British infill planes are another example. A Norris A5 in good condition with the original blade brought about $1600 a year ago. The 2 that I've seen listed in the last 5-6 months failed to sell because the reserve was not met; the bids went as high as $650 for one particularly nice example.
Stanley Miller combination plows/fillisters have also tanked. The last really nice example that I saw sell was about 2 months ago. It was a type 3 in superb original condition, and would've brought slightly over 2,000 a year ago. It sold for $1200. Most that show up now do not sell.
The result of this is that most collectors that would like to sell something simply hang on to them. There's very little of collector's material on the bay, though there are still the hoard of Stanley #5s every week.
Wow, I had no idea. I haven't been keeping track, of the high end stuff, that is. The consolation is that the 'user' stuff is still around. Thanks for the update.
Interesting! I don't follow that electronic market anymore. However I do follow bid and buy, at the MJD and Fine Tool Journal Auctions and pricing there seems to have remained stable. Prices at tool gatherings, such as Patina, also seem to have remained stable.
Do you think it is possibly because of the uncertainty of condition on Fleabay, while the other markets are known for properly stating condition? Just a thought.
T.Z.
"Do you think it is possibly because of the uncertainty of condition on Fleabay, while the other markets are known for properly stating condition? Just a thought."
I think it's because MJD and Brown have not reached the new equilibrium yet. Many, if not most, of the big-time tool collectors are old men (old being defined as 50+), and lots of them are allergic to e-mail, much less e-bay. As a result, MJDs and Brown's auctions are somewhat insulated from the huge correction in prices.
That won't stay that way forever, but hopefully for Martin and Clarence's sake, the market may come back somewhat before the correction shows up on their doorstep.
Oh no! I'm an old man!
I can somewhat agree with some staying away from computer usage, but I would still contend that condition matters. The uncertainty of fleabay condition has let that market erode quicker, probably to the level it should be. There are certain sellers on that site that do get more for their tools than others. For some of these guys, it is because what they do (some saw sellers), for some it is how they describe/photgraph to ensure condition.
And I say that I'm not a collector (though SWMBO would say otherwise). Well, its a nice, sunny, cool Sunday morning. I got to do a bit in the shop and then yard & garden need some attention.
T.Z.
Tony - I've no doubt that crappy photos, incorrect descriptions, and in some cases, less than honest sellers are a big factor in this. Still, I've a number of tools that I purchased off of e-bay that would bring about half of what a I paid for them. Since they were purchased off of e-bay, I'm thinking that the "e bay" factor about levels out.
But there are also examples from the bigger auctions. You'd be hard pressed to sell a gold-highlight L.L. Davis inclinometer in superb condition for more than about $500 at MJD, but they were bring close to $1500 a couple of years ago.
Unfortunately for me, I do collect tools and would like to sell some of them. Most of these are high-end Norris planes, but it looks like I'm stuck with them until the market improves. No sense in giving someone an A5 with original blade, no refinishing and no wood damage for $650.
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