Please see the graphic below. I want to cut a V into a piece of wood (see B), for which another piece (see A) will be glued into. The problem I have is that I need a nice cut in order to glue it well. I’m thinking the bandsaw will leave a crappy surface which may not hold the glue good enough. I was thinking perhaps just a handsaw is the best. Figure C is a side view, the image shows that if I cut with my table saw that I’d have to “clean it up” as the shape of the circular blade will not provide a nice verticle cut (drawn in red vs what I want in blue).
How would you try to do this cut?
Replies
What is the scale? How wide and deep is the V?
-Steve
Hi Steve, the V is about 2 inches wide at the base and about 8 inches deep/long.
Edited 5/13/2009 11:53 am ET by JohnRyan
Using a bandsaw (with a good, sharp blade), and jigging the workpiece in some kind of holder that rides in the miter gauge slot, will probably give you as clean a saw cut as you can get. That should be good enough for a decent glue joint.
Alternatively, you can use a tablesaw as far as it will go into the notch, then follow up with a bandsaw or handsaw to remove the bulk of the remaining waste, and finally use a chisel to pare the surfaces smooth and flat. That would give you the smoothest possible surface, but it's probably overkill.
-Steve
Hmm, yes, was thinking the bandsaw with a jig, I just have a crappy bandsaw...good for roughing out stuff. But perhaps a jig will do the trick on a straight line.
Was thinking to part do it with the tablesaw. In order to get the "curved" cut to a mininum I was thinking of raising the tablesaw blade as high as possible so that the cut happens in the middle (as possible) of the blade, giving me the most verticle cut at the point of the "V". Is that safe? In attached picture (A) is blade lower, but bigger curve, while (B) it is higher, more verticle at V point, but safe?
It's safe in the sense that the likelihood of kickback, etc. isn't any greater. But it's obviously less safe in the sense that there's much more blade exposed to errant bits of flesh and bones.
One of the other posters suggested a tenoning jig. I'm not sure you could get the angle you wanted with an off-the-shelf jig, but the principle is sound: Build a jig that runs in the tablesaw's miter slot and holds your workpiece vertically (angled appropriately), then run the workpiece over the blade. That way, the curvature of the periphery of the blade is not an issue. Of course, if the workpiece is 8' long...
I considered suggesting the same thing that Richard did (make it out of two pieces), but I didn't know if that was a viable option or not.
-Steve
Ya, not at this point, but I will probably be making a few of these.
Incidentally, this is a cricket bat, well, not actually, it's a fielding bat (a smaller cricket bat), used for cricket catching practise. My initial drawing is a cleft and handle. The handle is typically spliced into the cleft. If you look at the cleft of a cricket bat you will see that it is quite "shapely", basically carved rather than cut. So I lamenated the pieces so I could achieve the shape, not thinking that perhaps I could have cut that V before hand.
Thanks for all your replies!
Edited 5/13/2009 1:16 pm ET by JohnRyan
Hmm - I think you're going to have issues with this assembly staying together as a cricket bat. The handle piece (that has the male "V") and the bat piece (that has the female "V") are going to be largely end-grain, and there's no glue in the world that I know of that would glue these pieces together with enough strength to withstand swinging it into a ball.
So, dumb question (I know nothing about cricket other than a rough idea of the bat, wickets, and balls) - why is the handle not one piece with the bat (like a baseball bat is)?
All good questions! Ya, typically a cricket bat is made from english willow for the cleft and malaysian cane for the handle mostly for their light weight(I know, go figure...willow's not particularly strong)..why not ash, hickory, oak, like hockey sticks and baseball bats. The typical assembly is the cane handle spliced into the willow cleft with a V. Why not some other way? Don't know. The cane handle is also split into like 3 or 4 pieces and re-glued with rubber or cork in between. This is to minimize shock in the handle...and also the way the handle is glued in supposedly also prevents shock vibration in the hands. One single piece of wood, apparently will translate the shock vibrations. However, I'm with you on that, I'm not sure. So, my bat is made of laminated ash. Not as light as willow, but stronger...so, it means my bat won't be as thick to keep it light. I've cut the ash so that the face of the cleft is essencially a quarter sawn face. I will make several designs and test them out, one I want to do is as you say, one piece, however, if you have a look at the shape of these bats, they are quite shapely. Willow bats are often hand 'carved' with planes and draw knives to shape them. I used a grinder on my ash to shape it (yeehaa). A draw knife is very difficult to pull through the ash. I also wanted to try red cedar for the wood as it has a weight similar to willow, and is apparently stronger. It is very difficult (impossilbe) to find english willow in North America that is not plank cut. So, I thought, why not other woods, why not assemble it differently. I'm just learning so I am following what looks like traditional cricket bat making (to a degree). I think a strong, flexible, light-weight, durable bat can be made without having to use english willow. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm going to find out. Maybe this one I'm making is going to shatter, split, come apart easily. Thought I'd have some fun trying to see.
If anyone has some cool ideas on how to join the handle to the cleft rather than the splice (and keep it to glue and wood, no hardware eh). So, ya the "one piece" is a way.
Or, even the wood to make it from. First I'm trying ash. Then perhaps red cedar. (I think it was red cedar...I found a listing on the internet that listed wood weights and durability). Hickory I think is just too heavy. By the way...the bats are around the 2 pound 10 ounce range in terms of weight...are 4 1/4 inches wide and about 34 inches long (all varies). My fielders bat is shorter, so it is about 26 inches...but is still the same construction.
Now that I know what you are doing I can see my suggestion isn't appropriate. Many years ago I visited a cricket bat maker and vaguely remember seeing how they created the V shaped notch and installed the handle-- I don't remember well enough to pass on the information to you. Recently there was an article on a BBC telly programme, CountryFile I think, where they visited a bat maker's workshop. You might try going to the bbc website and seeing if you can find the programme and the clip I'm refering to. It might help.
I do know it's not just any old English willow that is used for cricket bats; it must be salix alba, var. cærulea which is plantation grown, tended and monitored. The genus, species and variety, as far as I know, simply does not exist outside these cultivated locations.
I can confirm to doubters that the handle glued into the V shaped notch of the bat's blade is all that holds the two together. Incredible really when you think that a swinging blade can meet a hard cricket ball that might be travelling at something close to 90 MPH. Add the speed of a full-blooded swing to the speed of the ball and perhaps the two meet at double that speed, but I really don't know, and I have no idea how you could calculate the stresses the bat might have to endure as it meets the ball. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Hey SgianDubh, thanks for your reply. Actually, I didn't think your first approach was out of line at all. I could have lamentated half, cut half the V with a table saw nicely on each side then glued them up and jointer the outside to bring it nicely into the width I want.
Yes, you're correct on the salix type of willow...although all the willow (flat sawn) that I've seen at the mills around here is that species...but the grain is not as wide as if its grown in england. I mean, I see bats that are like 4 to 8 grains across 4 and a half inches! In north america, its more like 20 even though still salix. Also, kashmir willow is a popular type that they use. Ya, I think I've seen every "cricket bat making" video available on the internet, below is a link to one for anybody interested.
Plus the clefts of willow are one piece, as you can see in the video...but, I was thinking to myself, I think that lamenated pieces of wood can be stronger than a single piece. Although, I want to try a single piece of red cedar. I was just erked that when talking about cricket bats everybody says "english willow" is the ONLY and the BEST wood to use. Maybe so. It's light, not particularly strong...but, they press it to make bats. Is it flexible? Don't know. Since I can't get it, I want to find the next best thing...or even better...something BETTER!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNp5joqkzio
Thanks fer the video.. I just love UTUBE..
And I think your idea of one hunk of wood is the best way to go. Although I never made a 'cricket' bat. Only played it one time while in Australia... I 'think' I won? I must have because they all got mad at this Yank... And as I remember they said because I won I had to pay the bill at the local Pub... Them 'downunders' were really something... Loved them all...
Ash is a wonderful wood to work with but my first thought was Hichory if you can get it. It is also very easy to work with. I love the way hickory splits. Ash does not do it as well from my memory...
How to knock in a cricket bat?
I have no idea what Knock in means!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCfOQpwqp8I
AND the 'bat' in the video above looks alot thicker than I used then.. I remember it as flat on both sides?
Maybe they gave me something else to hit the wood? ball with?
I think I did this and won the game... Won (Korean currency)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mESB4zb3Wg&feature=relatedJust funnin ya all. I have no idea if I won or lost. I just had to pay the Pub Bill!
Edited 5/16/2009 11:38 am by WillGeorge
John - I really have to wonder if there's something else going on than just gluing in a wedge. I pulled this comment off of the Fearnley site mentioned above:
"Splicing is where the handle and cleft are married together in a joint. The joints will be cut usually to perfectly complement each other and the joint should be that if fitted without adhesive it is impossible to remove by hand. Once the joint is ready the handle joint is glued and fixed and set into the cleft and left for 24 hours to set. This joint in known as the splice."
This has to be, at the very least, a sprung joint. Just sticking in a piece of say, hickory, into an ash blank isnt' going to result in a joint that's impossible to remove by hand - the thing will just fall apart.
I'm wondering if it doesn't make sense in your case to mortise the handle into the bat portion and put in a doulbe pin (I'd actually draw-bore it). If the handle was white oak, hickory, or some other high-strength, high-flexibility species, it should stand up to the stress.
JohnRyan,I'm not sure I understand what your doing, but when I need to make a cut like A&B I use my tenon jig to hold the stock and fiddle with the TS blade.
Consider making the V using two pieces of wood. Cut two pieces of wood exactly the same, eg, 20" long X 3" wide X 2 " thick. Cut and/or plane an appropriately angled 10" long taper on the 3" wide faces. Join the the 3" wide faces together to form the V. You might want to register the two bits of wood with a couple of dowels or biscuits, etc. Try to get a good grain match to join the two pieces of wood almost invisibly, and then all you have to do is make a matching taper in the inserted bit. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Hmm. Interesting idea. It's already a bunch of pieces laminated together, but next time perhaps that is a better way to do this.
Thanks all for your replies, you've been really helpful.
Saw out most of the waste with the crappy bandsaw then clean up the crappy cut with a router guided by a jig. Use a longish pattern cutting bit. Then all thats left to do is chisel the very pointy end of the vee.
You know, sapwood, I really like that idea. Hmm.
Here's a video on batmaking. Doesn't give much info on cutting the notch, but there are some other videos there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNp5joqkzio
Jim
LOL. Jim. Did you copy my link?
Nope. Saw it before. Half asleep. Been a long long time since I held a bat, but I seem to recall that the slots for the rubber springs didn't go the whole length of the handle, so the handle was glued only at the vee. You'd have to restring the handle every now and then, and the thing would gape at the top like a tramp's boot. The BBC has a story about one of the bigger and better makers going automated, so presumably they do it differently now. Good luck with the job.
Jim
LOL, just joking with ya. I have two hand made bats, borrowed...as I've never played the game myself (I have a couple of friend who play), and the handles are corked all the way through interestingly. That is, the cane was cut longways into 3 separate pieces, corked in between and all glued back together. I looked into it more and it seems that the old old old way was actually (not with cane) to cut the handle into 9 or 16 strips and then all corked and glued back together and shaped into a handle. I found that pretty interesting.
I was thinking to try cutting a handle in half or thirds and corking it thinking that it might act to sort of push-out/expand to make a tighter glued joint when spliced into the handle.
Certainly, these days CNC machines are used to mass produce. If I had one I'd do that. Many still hold that hand-made are the best, but I can't imagine, in terms of a bat, how you could beat the sheer precision of a CNC made bat.
Anyway...thanks for your reply.
There's a little bit about handles on this site. http://www.fearnleycricket.co.uk/howtomakecricketbat.asp
I never used a bat with anything but rubber springs, one or two. I imagine, though, that they're hard to get hold of if you're not in the business. Seems that glue is used universally now. On the antediluvian models of my youth the handle was wrapped in a thin twine, much like whipping a rope, then covered by the rubber sleeve. Lot of work to replace.
Jim
Bandsaw, definitely. Why can't you get a decent cut with your bandsaw?? Put a decent blade on it, properly tension it. So long as the saw is in good mechanical repair, it should cut fine. IMO, much of the trick to getting good performance out of ANY bandsaw is to use a good quality blade. Good quality bandsaw blades are not expensive either...at least not compared to the cost of a good tablesaw blade or carbide router bit... Rather than a jig in the miter slot though, I'd clamp a straight guide on the table at the angle you want and cut away. I'd put some pencil layout lines on the workpiece (both sides) and cut right to the line, flip the piece, make the second cut. As for strength of the joint, I'd pin it in addition to gluing it. Another thought would be to epoxy the joint instead of gluing it. I guarantee that if you use the epoxy properly and don't starve the joint, it will not fail, the surrounding wood will fail instead.
"Rather than a jig in the miter slot though, I'd clamp a straight guide on the table at the angle you want and cut away."
I suggest you give that a try. ;-)
-Steve
Am I to assume you are implying this technique would not give satisfactory results? I have no problem with my saw.Regards.
In order to make a cut on a bandsaw, the workpiece must move into the blade in a direction that is approximately aligned with the miter slot. If you attempt to move the workpiece into the blade at an angle that is significantly different from that, the blade will bind in the cut.-Steve
Ya, I'll try the bandsaw the sand the cut and/or as suggested run it through my router with a jig and straight bit with bearing to get it as good a surface as possible for gluing. The problem I had/have with my bandsaw is that it is a cheapy ( I answered in a poll here that it is the first tool I'd upgrade...I shouldn't have cheaped out on the bandsaw...but man, they can get expensive). Right away when I first used it, the blade guide broke off...and the blade wasn't even touching it, I got it replaced but have not confidence the new guide will last long if I properly use it. The blade guide has this bolt that is made out of a kind of "grainy" metal, I'm not sure what it is...but it's crap. I haven't used the saw very much and last week a brush part that runs over the blade inside also broke off..for no apparent reason...I mean it doesn't have any stess on it except for the blade running under the brush. My brother in law has a nice bandsaw so I was thinking I should drop over to his place and make the cuts...but alas...I must make due with what I've got...the suggestions here have been great to give me ways on how to clean up the joint in case the bandsaw "doesn't cut it". LOL...boooo.
John,
Do it freehand on your own bandsaw-as long as you mark a decent line, have a sharp blade square to table it is simple enough, then you merely fair it with sanding block: the vee shape is helpful-like a wedge. Make the sanding "block" as long as possible.Philip Marcou
Yep, you're right. That's what I call a 'gotcha'. I guess I meant angle the miter gauge to align the layout line with the blade, cut.Sheesh, that's embarrassing...
John,
Regarding how to make the cut as a one-off: the bandsaw will make a smooth cut which can be refined to a perfect squeeze fit if you make a vee shaped sanding block to refine it. You could drill a hole at the apex for the edge of the block, then when the glue is set re-drill and fill with a plug- very sexy.
Regarding how it is or was done by cricket bat makers: I speculate that a dedicated machine such as a heavy duty sliding table spindle moulder (shaper) was used. They would be gang cut. The cutter would be a plate type of something close to 20 inches diameter, suitably balanced. I have seen 13 inch cutters for making through coped tenons for doors which cut a beautifully smooth joint.
Regarding whether it would hold up: no doubt it would, in my mind, especially if you used compatible woods. The width of "moveable" timber is small and vee shape allows flexiblity without over stressing the joint-and there is a large glue area. I have never seen a cricket bat break there, even when bashed against a tree.
Nice, thanks for that input Philip. I think you guys have convinced me to give the bandsaw a go after all. I like the wedge sanding block idea and drilling the apex, then filling it in. The wood should be compatible in that the cleft and handle are both ash (for this try). I'm feeling much more confident about it now with all the great feedback from everyone.
Thanks.
I haven't read this whole thread yet. I have vowed to one of these days study cricket enough to start to understand the game though. With field positions with titles like " Silly-mid-on " there must be something to it all ! You may be entertained by the fictional explanation of the "real" origins of the game of cricket in the book by Douglas Adams Restaurant at the End of The Universe. Hilarious book !
I have two thoughts:
• there is such a thing as a bandsaw blade that is just a knife edge. Used for cutting leather etc. You could use that to get into the bottom of the V. Maybe.
or
• you could just inlay the V area and make the core a different joint or extend the handle down further into the body. In any case just inlay the V for decoration.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )"
Hahahaha. I LOL'd. After some 30+ responses that's exactly how I feel! Just cut the dang thing eh?! I'm getting crazy about just doing it good so it works...I'm trying not to wreck it and then have to start again and reglue again. This project was the first time I glued slats of wood together (I'm new to woodworking if you haven't guessed). I should have video taped me gluing...it would have been good for a laugh for you all. I got it all lined up, then I clamped it all, and as I added clamps (which are not proper glue-up clamps exactly) they weighed the piece down on one side and the slats stared to slide and sheer, so that the face wasn't flat, so I then had to prop up the clamps. Oh brother. Mannnnn, I had glue ALL OVER THE PLACE! I was like a kid in kindergarten gluing up my mother's day creation! Thank the good lord that I had started by gluing on top of waxed paper...HAHA...what a mess. Anyway, I learned a few things...lol.
As for knocking in a bat (as posted by willgeorge), they knock in willow bats because the wood is soft, knocking it in helps to harded the cleft face, especially the edges of the bat, or the ball will chip off the wood. I don't think I'll need to do that sort of thing because I'm making it from Ash. Also, I looked at Hickory...frankly, it's just too heavy. I searched the web, and think my next choice to try will be red cedar. It seems to be as light as english willow, but stronger.... apparently. Ya, I'll do that after I finish this one...after I finish sharpening my axe.
Roc .. Did my post tick ya off a bit? Sorry!
>Roc .. Did my post tick ya off a bit? Sorry!Will,I must admit you are pretty different in the rhythm of your posts . . . but no . . . not ticked. Please highlight the bit of my post in question.If it was the "such a thing as knife edge bandsaw blade" that wasn't in anger or sarcastic. It sounds funny to say and I just wanted to assure the reader there is one out there.May have been the leather punch suggestion but that was another thread and not in the least ticked there either.Perhaps that I had not read all posts here then but that was just a fact and not aimed at you or anyone.I am a bit confused about JohnRyans>Hahahaha. I LOL'd. After some 30+ responses that's exactly how I feel! Just cut the dang thing eh?!I was hoping the knife bandsaw might be the solution and not recommending to just get on with it in a slipshod way.But we ARE once again in the difficult "Mercury in Retrograde" astrological eddy. Communication can get all messed up. Doesn't it seem like no time at all since we were "suffering" through the last one ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 5/19/2009 3:29 pm by roc
>Roc .. No offence intended! Maybe I got the wrong poster. I was thinking about the cricket bat..
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