I’m looking for some suggestions for putting a finish on a Walnut chair I have almost finished for my Grandson that is 2 years old. I built his older brother a table & chair about 3 years ago out of oak and used a poly finish on them both.
The Walnut has some great detail in it and I want to enhance or bring it out, Danish oil is an old favorite to use but not for this, you know how 2 year old’s hands can have a mixture of many things on them at different times! Shellac is a thought but it is not a real tough finish that I remember. Any thoughts out there ?
Thanks Marsh
Replies
Marsh,
Shellac is an excellent choice for this project. It is a very durable vinish contrary to popular misconception. Do you need tips on how to apply it?
Rich
edit: not only is it a very durable "vinish," it's a great finish too!
Edited 3/5/2007 10:07 pm ET by Rich14
Marsh,
Rich beat me to it.. Shellac is every hard. Look at pictures of my floor protected with shellac for proof.. My 150 pound Newfoundland doesn't damage it!
Very easy to apply! ask if you want..
Thanks for the response Rich, Let me see...the last time I used Shellac was when I was in 7th grade shop class! I know that it does not hold up to water very well and that is kind of my resistance to use it on something for a 2 year old.
I remembered I had a book or two on finishing (Flexner & Jewitt) that I ought to get the skinney on applying shellac. I think the orange shellac will enhance the Walnut.
But I am open to your thoughts or info.
thanks Marsh
Koi:Here are the step-by-step instructions from frenchy and Rich for applying shellac. They were kind enough to pull together all the pieces from various threads. It will save you having to hunt and peck through previous postings.Please be aware that all credit for this belongs to frenchy and Rich; my contribution was the cut and paste part!OK go to HomeDepot, Lowes, your local hardware store, paint store or some other place and pick up some Zinssers Bullseye shellac. (it's a yellow can says clear on the bottom)..
Pick up some denatured alcohol in a three to one ratio (three quarts of denatured alcohol to one quart of shellac, three gallons to one gallon)..
while you're there buy a good paint brush probably bigger than you would think you need and a 3M sanding sponge 220 grit (the yellow one)
Now it's important if you want a really deep finish that the finish be really smooth. 150 grit is too coarse. I go at least 220 and if it's something that will be displayed I don't think it's possible to go too fine..
Remove all dust etc. open the can and stir it for a bit 60 seconds is enough, 30 seconds if your lazy, go ahead use the paint brush and get everything off the bottom.. (it settles) now mix at a better than two to one ratio. two parts of denatured alcohol and one part of shellac.. make sure that you use denatured alcohol not paint thinner or something else..
pour it into a container with a better than 2 to one ratio.. three to one is fine.. there is no such thing as too thin shellac!
When you paint it on.. you must go fast.. Fast!fast is real important carefull is not what you want to do.. don't worry about runs drips missed areas and etc.. cover everything fast.. Shellac dries real fast and if you go back you will have all sorts of problems..
15 minutes after you're done the shellac is dried. now you'll want to sand the nubs off.. that's what that 3M sponge is for .. just a light hit and a lick.. a second, second and a half per square foot maximum.. run your hand over it to ensure you got all the nubs off..
Don't try to "fix" things.. just remove the nubs..
Wipe off the sanding dust and give it it's second coat..The new shellac melts into the first coat and "fixes" everything for you..
this one will take 30 minutes to dry. feel if the nubs are still gone, if not sand them off with the same sanding sponge.. (I use one sponge in 500 sq. ft. of hardwood)
after a half hour is up give it the third and final coat..
Now if you are happy with the results you'll have a great finish that repairs extremely easily and is very durable.. you can if you want color sand and polish or french polish if you have a lot of ambition..Four coats? Never!
Three at most and they should be thin coats.. Mix one part shellac with three parts denatured alcohol..
it will be extremely watery.. which is the real secret..
Put on the first coat and it will be dry inside of 15 minutes.. Sand..
Put on the second coat and it will be dry inside a 1/2 hour, Sand...
Put on the final coat.. it's dry inside an hour..
please note that you sand between coats not when you are done!
Did you use three parts of denatured alcohol to one part of premixed shellac?
You need to start over.. grab some denatured alcohol soak a rag and the old shellac will come right off.
follow my directions carefully, ask and I'll walk you thru it.
If you have runs you simply didn't thin it enough!
Thin, watery,, thin,, thin,, thin!!!!!!! brush or wipe real fast because shellac dries inside of 15 minutes hard enough to sand..
a table the size of yours should take about 4 seconds of sanding to be done. per side.. a few extra seconds to carefully sand the edges) . use 220 sand paper (I prefer to use the 3M sanding sponge, yellow 220 one) Allow the shellac to harden for at least 48 hrs. Lightly level all the unevenness with 320-400 grit on a felt or rubber sanding block (assuming the surface you are working is flat). Use sandpaper without the block over curved areas. Make sure the suface is absolutely even because ridges or unevenness will become exaggerated again with padding. Also, once unevenness or streaking starts, you must stop and let the shellac completely harden, because the wet pad just picks up the soft streaky shellac and makes it worse.
Dilute a portion of the shellac to a 1# cut or even 1/2# cut. Don't squirt it onto the surface of the applicator (rubber). That will also deposit undisolved shellac and other "stuff" in the solution. Apply the shellac to the inside material of the applicator. The outer wrapping should be completely clean and act as a "filter" for the shellac.
The outer covering of the applicator must have no creases from folding or any seams.
Apply a drop of mineral oil or linseed oil to the applicator for lubrication. It makes a big difference in the padding action and helps to thin out the film of shellac as it's being applied. Add alcohol to the pad as it gets dry, not more shellac solution, until there seems to be nothing left in the pad. Then add a little more shellac and a little more lubricant.
I've used a product called Qualasole from Behlen with very good results. It's a "padding lacquer" containing nitrocellulose lacquer, solvents, lubricants (linseed oil). alcohols in a propietary formula. It produces a glass-like sheen and goes down in a microscopically-thin layer. I think it's easier to use than trying to pad shellac. But after I got good with Qualasole, I found I could then do the same thing with dilute shellac as I described above. Once you finally "get it" (the padding technique) it's hard to make it go wrong.
Thanks <!----><!----><!---->Hastings<!----><!----> for the cut & paste job of Rich &Frenchy’s information! All of you thank’s. I got a can this afternoon, ok ok, I got 2 cans one of each clear and amber to do a test strip and determine which I like the best. They both look great with the 3 coats applied and I will do a little more testing before I have the chair assembled and ready to finish.<!----><!----><!---->
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Like I said I remember using shellac back in 7th grade shop class and the next 2 years cutting it in preparation for the classes coming through. Being a shop helper those two years and not having a Real woodworker as a teacher you just got the basics if even that. But I now have maybe found a great old forgotten finish to use again.<!----><!---->
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Thanks all<!----><!---->
I've been following the shellac posts on Breaktime. Thanks Hastings for pulling the how-to posts together. I'm ready to refinish some decent Ethan Allen solid maple bedroom furniture. I need to stain it darker to match a new Louis Phillip style sleigh bed - a reddish brown.I have one nightstand with all the old finish removed, bare maple sanded to 220. Question is, what type of stain do I apply before the shellac? Minwax oil-based? How long for the stain to "dry" before shellacing? Blond or amber shellac? Will the shellac further darken a stain finish?I know I should do a test area, but want to get on the right track, when choosing shellac.
Thanks
Marsh,
Shellac can be the most utilitarian of finishes and often gets used in "menial" applications, slapped on and forgotten. In such lowly applications, it does its job very well and asks nothing from anyone. Slop it on and forget it. Anyone introduced to it that way thinks of it as a cheap, rather ugly finish, not worthy of a second thought.
Shellac is really one of the finest (if not THE finest) finishes that can grace wood. It is really VERY durable. It is VERY hard. And nothing but the finest lacquer matches it for clarity and bringing out the "fire" in the wood. Water will not harm it in the least, unless it is left in a puddle on the finish or if it is trapped against it for at least several hours. A wet hand holding a shellaced piece for a moment or two will cause absolutely no damage. The moisture will evaprate, no harm, no fowl. Unless one is using an ammonia solution (the only REAL warning about harming it) a shellac surface can be wiped with a damp cloth for dusting, etc.
Lastly, yes, alcohol rubbed into the finish will soften and remove it. But an alcohol drink spilled on a shellaced piece of furniture will do little damage if wiped up immediately. Do you think there is even the most remote possibility that an alcohol drink will get spilled on this little piece of furniture? Probably as much chance as a meteor hitting your house.
Get a can of Zinsser's Bullseye, a light-amber grade of shellac, containing the natural wax of the product. It's a 3 lb cut. (each time you use it, swirl the can a bit to distribute the wax which will settle between uses. It's no big deal, it's not like mixing paint where you really need to mix well). Or get Zinsser's SealCoat, a 2 lb cut of a lighter blonde, dewaxed shellac. Ignore the wording on the can implying that it's only an undercoat for other finishes.
Sand the piece to 220 grit. pour off a quantity of Bullseye and mix it with 2 equivalent volumes of denatured alcohol or a quantity of SealCoat and mix with one equivalent volume of denatured. (You will have a 1 lb cut then of either). Apply a coat to the wood with a brush - any kind of brush. Work quickly. Brush in one direction, laying the shellac on. Don't brush back and forth. Don't try to even out any brush marks that may occur or lap marks. At this dilute concentration there should be very few. Allow to dry for half an hour. Recoat quickly with a thin layer. Allow to dry for an hour.
This coat is the "sanding sealer coat" and probably has raised some grain, although on walnut there will be little. Gently scuff sand with 320 grit, removing any wood fuzz and roughness in the surface of the finish. It will sand very easily to a smooth and level surface.
Use Bullseye 2 parts + denatured 1 part or SealCoat undiluted for the final coats. Brush on, let dry for 2 hours. Re-apply, let dry overnight. Rub out the entire piece with 4-0 steel wool. Take some time and carefully rub out any brush marks and other uneveness and burnish the entire surface well. You'll have a beautiful, medium-luster finish that will show the character of the wood, including the open pores of the walnut that will glisten with the polished shellac. The finish will last for years with no need of attention. If there is any need to "repair" it. A cloth dampened with alcohol will often do the job. At worst, brush on some more shellac at the damaged place, let dry and rub out with steel wool. A perfect, absolutely invisible repair as new shellac disolves the surface of old shellac and completey melts into it.
Rich
Edited 3/6/2007 11:20 am ET by Rich14
Rich
I've got a project almost finished with walnut raised panel doors. I really want to try the shellac on it, as I've heard so many great things about shellac as a finish lately, especially on walnut. Given the fact that I have hvlp equipment, would I benefit from spraying shellac vs. applying it with a brush. I'm not interested in trying to attain a french polished look, just a nice, warm finish that brings out the beautiful grain in this air dried wood.
I've printed your instructions for applying by hand. How, if any, would your advice change if spraying the shellac were involved. Would I use the same 'cuts' of shellac, and in the same order.
I'd like to add shellac to my reportoire, and appreciate the help.
Jeff, trying to avoid yet another hand rubbed oil finish
Jeff,
When I spray shellac as a sole finish (often!) I like to use a 1lb cut for the first coat and a 1 1/2 to 2lb cut after that. Don't get too caught up in weighing shellac. You just need to get close. After a couple of times you can tell about what you have just by working with it. There is a very noticeable difference between a 2lb and a 1lb cut.
Also, don't get into a varnish mindset. Once you have applied just enough to get good coverage and the gloss you want, stop. Shellac is so hard that if you put to much on it won't be elastic enough to move with the wood and it will eventually "alligator".
Rob
Jeff,In fact, I have always sprayed shellac. I've given instructions for brushing, because that's what most people want to be able to do. I have to admit I've tried frenchy's "technique" lately. Paradoxically, while he uses it for VERY large areas, I like it for very small pieces where it beats setting up and cleaning a gun. For anything as big as an end table, gimme my gun.I spray shellac the same way I spray lacquer, (or water-borne varnish for that matter). I try to achieve the thinnest application I can while achieving a completely wetted surface. Many thin coats, but completely covering the surface each time.For a close-to-the-wood, almost "oiled wood" look, just a few coats will do, rubbed out with 4-0 steel wool. Lovely. I want to leave the character of the wood so that it looks like the wood itself is polished, not an obvious, discernable surface film.For a full surface film over close-grained wood or pore-filled wood, I know I've applied enough coats when scuff sanding between coats easily achieves a uniform ground-glass look without any separate shiny "valleys" between abraded shellac "hills." Until enough applications are down, the hills and valleys persist and attempting to get an even overall sanding will cut through the thinnest spots. I usually reach that point with 5-6 spray sessions.I agree with Rob, I don't measure very acurately for dilution. My spray mix is about 1-1/2 to 2# cut. I go by "feel." You can get to that point real fast mixing the stuff. It's not hard at all to judge the viscosity after a while. I use the same for the first and subsequent applications.Rich
Edited 3/6/2007 11:24 pm ET by Rich14
Rich
How often do you sand. Do you sand between each coat, or do you build a couple before sanding. When I spray waterborne finish (crystalac) I sand between each coat. They don't melt into each other like shellac does, and orange peel and dust can get trapped in between.
I just mixed up some garnet shellac the "Jeff Jewitt" way of filling a glass jar 1/4 of the way with flakes, and 3/4 with alcohol. It's his quick and ez way to get about a 1 1/2 lb cut, according to his book. I'm going to spray it next week and experiement a little bit, just to see how it goes.
Last question: How do you clean your gun? When I'm done with the crystalac, I just rinse it out real thoroughly, including removing the tip and air cap, and rinse them all well. Then, I fill the spray cup up with water, and spray it out. Do you do the same thing, only with alcohol. I'd have to spray it into a metal bucket, I suppose.
Thanks for the info.
Jeff
Jeff,
I usually sand after every coat. But that's just me. It's probably just as effective to sand after every several coats.
Always sand after the first coat, because it will raise the grain on most woods. That's a good thing. Sanding with 320 grit on a rubber or felt sanding block easily takes down the raised grain, shellac nibs and all other roughness to prepare for the next coats. The weight of the block and my hand is just about all the pressure needed.
As each new coat goes down , with gentle scuff sanding in between, it's almost amazing how the finish transforms from a rough, almost pebbly surface texture (before sanding) to a beautiful lustrous surface (before sanding) with later coats. I never leave the last sprayed surface as-is, although a lot of finishers do. I always level sand, then rub out to the desired sheen.
I clean the gun with alcohol, exactly the way you do with water for your water based finish, except I'm probably more stringent with the amount of alcohol vs washing with water! I used to use a gun with siphon feed. That took a lot of cleaning. Before I left Hawaii (and still had a workshop) I got a gravity-feed HVLP gun. Cleaning that is a snap. Just a few seconds and the job is done. Highly recommended. I'm getting a gravity-feed LVLP unit.
Rich
Edited 3/7/2007 11:31 am ET by Rich14
Rich,
If the application calls for it I certainly will level sand and polish to the desired sheen. In that case I'll usually give things 4 coats instead of my normal three, but I start out with a much smoother surface than normal as well. Instead of sanding to 220 I will either go to a card scraper or thru to 1000 grit paper. The card scraper leaves a superior finish to sanding but not every finish is worthy of that effort..
Rich and Frenchy
Thanks for the great tips. Lunch break is over, and I'm heading back to the shop to apply finish to 3 cherry tables I just finished making. After that, it's shellac practice time. (Don't want to experiment on furniture JUST YET!)
Jeff
JeffHeath,
When I spray Shellac which is less and less often as I perfect my brushing technique, To Clean, I just fill the gun partly with alcohol and spray it into a can of mixed shellac (no need to waste it like lacquer or other finishes) I take a rag and wipe down the body of the gun with alcohol making sure that I get it as clean as possible.. Then I take the gun apart and soak the parts in alcohol. Since I reuse all the alcohol and the resulting thinned out shellac I don't feel like a wastral like with other finishes as I get everything spic and span.
Now Rich and I differ greatly on this subject. He's a spray advocate and I prefer brushing. While he claims that he can cover more area faster with a spray gun I feel that the hassle of dealing with overspray, hauling out equipment, and cleaning it up afterwards more than offsets any speed advantage with spray equipment..
I do have a 5 gallon pressure pot for when I need to do a lot of volume spraying especially overhead and I will grant that in that application brushing suxs!
"To Clean, I just fill the gun partly with alcohol and spray it into a can of mixed shellac (no need to waste it like lacquer or other finishes"
<slapping self on forehead>
Of course! Why didn't I think of that?
Brilliant!
Rich
rich,
Please remember you are speaking to the absolute king of cheap! waste not, want not.. <G>
When you spray back into mixed shellac, do you make sure you know how much so you can keep track of the cut? Do you continue to add a little shellac, add some alcohol from cleaning and keep using the mixed shellac on your projects? If you do this, do you keep track of the dates so that what's mixed doesn't get too old?
handy,
If you use shellac as quickly as some of us, the date issue is not an issue at all. But if you are ever concerned that your shellac is too old, throw it out and mix more. If it doesn't easily sand to a very fine, dry powder after drying overnight, it's too old.
As far as the mixture strength is concerned, this is something that is far less important than the various recommendations seem to make it. "Use a 2# cut for this, use a 1-1/2# cut for that, measure this much alcohol to that weight of dry flakes," etc., etc.
About 1-1/2 to 2# cut is a comfortable working strength. Mix up enough shellac, and you get to recognize the mixture strength by its viscosity - how it swirls in the jar, how it handles. Less than that is a really dilute mix, more is a thick mix. I measure my quantities when I'm mixing, but I'm not all that careful as I can tell when I have the right strength by the way it behaves. Adding "waste" alcohol to a 1-1/2# batch certainly would dilute it. Enough to matter? Probably not. But if it did, adding some dry shellac (a few pinches) would bring it up "to snuff" in a few minutes.
BTW, I grind my shellac flakes in a little electric coffee grinder to a fine powder. The powder disolves in alcohol in 15-20 minutes, rather than the overnight disolving time usually needed for whole shellac flakes.
Rich
Thanks for the great reply. I've used old shellac, and really don't want to repeat that experience.And thanks for the tip about grinding the flakes. I've mixed my own before and it really gummed up on the bottom and took quite a while to completely mix. When you said to add a few flakes to over-thinned shellac, I thought to myself that I would find it a bit frustrating to wait hours for it to mix in. Thanks for the tip!
handymom,
My experiance with shellac hasn't ever been negative.. I've used some old mixed shellac and because I added fresh denatured alcohol I didn't have any problems..
It's been debated here and I contend that the light ends of the alcohol escape which is what causes the gummy problems some seem to have with aged mixed shellac..
Adding enough fresh alcohol seems to solve that problem for me. If you're nervous it takes but 15 minutes to do a test piece.. surely someplace in your shop you've got a scrap of wood to waste.. Heck if it's not too full of sawdust you can just dip it right into the mix and wait 15 minutes to confirm everything is fine. While you dip it into the can you might give everything a stir to get it off the bottom of the can..
The piece you use doesn't need to be the same wood or anything..
If it's still gummy you might add a significant amount of alcohol and test again..
I do know that the shellac I stripped from a 70 year old piano dried out stiff as a board in the rag when I used fresh alcohol to wash it off.. So the shellac itself sure isn't the problem.. It has to be the alcohol.
Second I don't keep track of how much alcohol I add to the can of premixed because I've never found a way to get shellac too thin! If you want to know exactly what sort of mix you have you brush some on a piece of wood and touch it every few minutes.. if it dries in about 15 you're about right.. if it dries in say 5 you can add some to it and if it takes 30 minutes you can cut it with alcohol..
Shellac is a very forgiving finish designed for boneheads like myself who can't manage to paint worth squat and darn sure aren't chemistry majors..
I'm sure I'll be using the information I have learned in the last couple of days about shellac here at Knots for the rest of my woodworking years! Thanks a lot!
I've just pulled all the good information from this thread to print and keep handy in my shop! Thanks everyone!
koikid,
shellac will withstand water!
Just don't leave it underwater! Some kids silva is no problem.. plus he won't get sick from chewing it..
At The Woodworking Show in Chicago, the "Master Finisher" (sorry, I should look up his name) talked about all sorts of finishes, but he seemed to have a special affection for shellac. He said that if it were a new product on the market today, it would be heralded as an amazing product that has all of the qualities that finishers want. It's hard, fast drying, and brings out the beauty of the wood. I read a very informative thread here at Knots recently that also sang it's praises and gave some practical advice on applying it.
Shellac is a great coating. The Frenchy method is probably forth coming. Just be aware there are many methods of applying it they all have their merits.
peter28,
You are absolutely correct, there are many methods of applying shellac and the one I mention all of the time is but one of them.. I mention it simply because it's easy for a first timer to do and it takes fear out of the equation..
Wipe on oils etc. seem to be all the rage mostly because of peoples poor experiance with paint brushes.. eliminate the paint brush and you'll sell a lot of what ever finish you're hawking.. Evan if in a few years you need to redo it!
Once people apply a shellac finish properly, there is little reason to use a finish other than shellac.. (indoors anyway) do a few pieces and have good results and it build confidence. With confidence comes a willingness to venture afield.. and we're off!
frenchy,
I admire the fact you are such a proponent of shellac. I especially agree with taking the fear out working with it. Once someone can get a feel for it the mystery is solved.
I do question the " cannot thin it too much" advice. If you thin the solid content of any coating that much, you're left with virtually nothing. For a wash coat that's fine but for finish coats you need a little more body. That way the coating will stand up to "finishing the finish" if someone wants to rub it out. Most like to relate to the pound cut of shellac. While I work by viscosity, most of what I use would be in the one to two pound range. This can easily be brushed, sprayed or padded as required.
I once introduced a client to French Polishing. I did this finish on a small room paneled in random width hip and bead boards that were solid satin wood. I must admit to getting arm weary after four or five hours but I'm ambidextrous, so that helped. What kept me going was seeing that wood glow. That was twelve years ago and it is still one of my favorite projects.
When in doubt, shellac it. You can't go wrong. BTW have you ever added a plastisizer to make shellac less brittle and a little more flexible?
Peter
peter,Tell us about adding plasticizer.Rich
Rich,
As you know shellac is a very hard resin. Take all the wax out of it, like super blonde , and a bodied coating can be a pain to sand.
Lacquers, sealers etc. have stearates which aid in sanding.
By adding a small amount of sandarac to my blonde shellac, I now have a sanding aid. It has very little effect on the clarity of the coating.
Sandarac ( also known as gum juniper) is classified as a brittle resin but is a little softer than shellac. It is soluble in alcohol and can be added to shellac usually in an amount of less than ten %. Obviously you have to experiment with ratios.
It comes from a type of tree native to North Africa and exudes naturally and by incisions in the bark. It's a pale yellow and has a dusty surface.
The "gum juniper" is a bit of a misnomer because it won't dissolve in water since resins are neither soluble or softened by water.
I once made a spirit varnish using sandarac and soft copal. I used this finish on a birdseye maple plant stand. It's still on of my favorite finishes in the house.
That's just one, there are many other resins such as mastic, camphor, gum benzoin that were utilized (for better or worse)
I saw some people talking about Philadelphia in knots and Winterthur kept coming up. Their library is second to none. If you are ever there look this up;
Decorative and protective Finishes, 1750-1850
Materials, Process and Craft
It is a thesis written by Theodore Zuk Penn, University of Delaware, 1966.
It's my bible. BTW, I wrote an article on shellac for FWW in October 03. I mentioned in a small paragraph the properties of sandarac and mentioned where to get it.(Kremer Pigments) When I talked with them after that, they told me they sold more sandarac that month then they had in the past year. I should have asked for a commission.
Peter
As regards sanding, is there anyone out there who does what I do and sprays water on the item being finished, to raise the whiskers and then sand them off before adding any finish?Planeround
Edited 3/7/2007 10:45 pm ET by Planearound
Planearound,
Since I like using water dyes, I always prepare my raw surface like that.
Plane,Yes. But with shellac finishing, water isn't necessary. The first coat raises the wood fibers, and holds them rigidly encased in the shellac "sealer coat" so that sanding them off is very easy.Rich
Peter,I've used gum sandarac and gum arabic in an entirely different application - in the "fountain solution" for offset printing. I thought both were water soluble, but maybe there was alcohol as well in the solution for the sandarac to disolve.I haven't found dewaxed shellac to be difficult to sand. Yes, it is slightly more difficult than shellac with wax, but not difficult enough that I was unhappy with it.I'll try some sandarac in the shellac.Here's a source Google turned up:http://www.paperinkarts.com/shop.html?target=dept_54.html&lang=en-us I'm not clear, though - is sandarac a plasticizer?Rich
Rich,
In the respect that I was using it, I see it as that in so far as it softens and makes the shellac more pliable. the theory behind using Gum Arabic in shellac ( as I understand it) is it homogeneously bonds the resins together. Why not, it's a glue.
I'm open to terminology though.
Anything that makes my life easier makes me happy.
Peter
Very interesting sidebar, Rich & Peter. I enjoyed reading it immensely.
I was recently appointed to the Historic Landmarks Board in the small city/large town I live in and these historic finishes, particularly those that might have been used in a residential interior, are interesting to me on a whole new level now.
Can either of you tell me, other than shellac and lacquer, which kinds of finish resins might typically have been used on a residential interior between, say, 1850 and WWI? And would it matter if we're talking West Coast instead of East of the Rockies, particularly in the earlier years?
Kevin,
Besides shellac; There was no lacquer as we know it until around 1920.
The two most important resins for varnish making were amber and copal
Amber is the fossilized resin from a prehistoric pine tree. It is a very hard resin and imparts a brownish cast to the varnish.
There are a large group of resins under the heading copal. All except Manila copal are fossil origin. Manila copal is soluble in alcohol and is used to make a spirit varnish.
Both amber and copals are very hard and were "made to run" or melted before they could be used in a varnish. As I understand it, this would partially depolymerize the resin and allow it to dissolve in a heated oil.
Some interesting books for you would be;
Violin Varnishes; Josef and Reiner Hammerl.
The Painter, Gilder and Varnisher's Companion.
Henry Carey Baird, Philadelphia, 1854.
I saw two copies of this book at Winterthur's library. One was a later addition. There are a few recipes listed for French Polishes. The later addition had one recipe scratched out in pencil and a notation and arrow to the "TRUE" French Polish.
I sat back and laughed. It seems this discussion (argument) on proper finishing predates us all. I guess we're just providing fodder for the future.
What do you have in the way of museums and or fine arts colleges in your area? This is where I would start the hunt for answers on what may be common in your region. What town is it anyways?
Peter
I live in Forest Grove, which is due West of Portland. Just far enough away that I don't think we could accurately be described as a suburb of Portland. But we are very close to the suburbs. For this end of the country it is a very old community, boasting the oldest post-secondary educational institution (Pacific University) West of... I think it's the Rockies... Maybe the Mississippi, I forget which. The community dates back to somewhere in the early1840's but wasn't incorporated until the early 1870's.
I don't know if there are any fine arts colleges, although I presume that there most likely are. Portland has the fairly prominant Portland Art Museum and a large assortment of lesser known, more specialized museums. I assume that a historical museum would be more likely to have relevant information than a fine art museum? I'll have to look around and see what I can find.
About Amber... I always thought that fossilization involved a mineralization process. If Amber can be melted then that can't be right.
I believe that animal or vegetable life caught in amber is "preserved" (relative term) rather than "fossilized." There are incredibly old specimens found in amber from which intact DNA has been extracted. I believe that DNA deteriorates as any organism decays (it certainly doesen't last for years). The specimens found "preserved" in Amber have been hundreds of millions of years old.
Yeah, I'd read about the DNA thing several times. I'd always just assumed that because Amber is so dense that the fossilization process just hadn't quite reached the insect. Apparently that's not the case, though.
Kevin,
Both references I gave you refer to amber as fossilized.
A quote;
"The resin is considered to be the fossilized juice of the prehistoric conifer Pinus succinifer which was thought to have grown in the area that is now submerged beneath the Baltic Sea. It was mined in Poland and Eastern Germany and it was collected as it washed up on the Baltics shores"
T.Z. Penn , page 52
another;
"Amber is a fossil resin of a long extinct coniferous tree. (Also) Amber is a very hard and brittle resin which soften and melts at 215 degrees (c) Amber is melted under intense heat to make varnish"
Violin Varnishes page 11
BTW, the only reason I'm at the computer is the radiant heat in my shop has been out for the last 36 hours. With temps in the teens and twenties, it's been interesting.
Don't you and Rich have anything to work on? (tongue in cheek of course)
Peter
I've got something that's supposed to show up at 10:00. In the meantime I'm cleaning and rebuilding my favorite gravity gun so that I can use it on this job.
It seems like "fossilized" is used fairly loosely to describe really old Amber. I've seen and handled plenty of fossilized wood, by way of comparison, and it's most definitely rock now. 215 degrees of heat would just warm it up.
You must be very dexterous. Cleaning the gun and typing.
Hope nobody is watching.
:::ssshhhhhh:::
I'm at the other end of the building and in my own space, main area and three adjoining rooms.
Out of sight, out of mind... ;-)
Kevin,
The 215 degrees was celsius It also stated about the resin, at 290 degrees it gives off an acid vapor ( succinic acid0
Finally got the heat running again. The computer for the system died. With temps expected to reach a high of 5 degrees it was just in time.
It just takes the slab a while to heat up, but what a comfortable and safe heat.
Peter
BTW, the only reason I'm at the computer is the radiant heat in my shop has been out for the last 36 hours. With temps in the teens and twenties, it's been interesting.
Yeah, it must be tough in those temps. I once had to spray lacquer on Oak furniture during my last go-round in the production furniture biz with one of those kerosene space heaters blasting and belching smoke about 20 feet away and aimed in my direction. This was the dead of winter and the start-up company couldn't afford to either run the propane heater on the Air Make-Up unit or to heat the lacquer in what was designed to be a heated air-less (Graco) system. They'd inherited the entire facility from a failed furniture biz which is where I'd first learned how to finish. It was a very familiar place but under very unfamiliar conditions.
So there I was (deliberately) wearing the nicely insulated dressy mohair coat that me newly EX-wife had bought me, wheezing on kerosene fumes and smoke, spraying away on an automated track system as the stuff rolled through the #1 lacquer booth - stopping the line after just about every case to grab a can of Mohawk "No-Blush" to get rid of the inevitable blushing (no heat for the spray system meant thinning with solvents too damn hot for those temps!) before kicking on the belt so that the next case could roll through my booth. All the while wondering how far Ketone fumes could travel before the booth sucked them away from that infernal space heater. LOL!!
Of course that was before the PC had really caught on and I didn't have a computer to play on. And besides, I had a production schedule to meet, come hell or high water. A month later the company folded owing all of us a month's worth of paychecks. Fortunately I'd gone to highschool with the principle invester's daughter and a personal phone call resulted in a paycheck a week later.
And you think you've got it bad???
;-)
Kevin,
I don't get to see a good production line often. It is really an eye opener on speed and efficiency.
A cabinet company in Indianapolis flew me there to teach their finishing department the rudiments of gilding this past year. At the end of the third day I got to spend some time on the floor. I couldn't believe the speed every one was working. Some just glazing parts, one women who did all the spray toning, pieces coming out of the oven on the line getting sanded and re shot. I was getting dizzy watching it.
I admire what you do. I doubt I'd ever be able to keep up.
Peter
I gotta say that in some respects I really miss it. It's really a completely different game from piece-work finishing with a whole different set of challenges all it's own. Anyone that is highly competitive will thrive in that kind of an environment because it's a constant battle for speed and precision. The repetition can be boring. But time sure flies by quickly!
Of course it's been... 15 years since I've worked in that kind of environment.
I gained two invaluable skills from such a beginning.
1. How to spray correctly (i.e. at perfect right angles to the surface, flexing at the wrist rather than the elbow) as well as how to trigger precisely when spraying inside corners. Having to do it fast really grounded those lessons very securely.
2. I learned that everything has a logical spray pattern to it. There is a logical best way to spray a roll-top desk, for example. And that lesson was super valuable several years later when I found myself spraying high-end flexible-louver shutters because having a perfect pattern and correct spray technique literally could make or break the paint job.
By far the most common cause of orange peel and overspray by finishers that I've watched is not having a logical spray pattern. I can literally watch a finisher trying to decide where to go next as he/she is in the middle of spraying something sizable with multiple surfaces. Inevitably I can find orange peel or overspray or runs/sags after they're finished spraying. And more often than not it's because they got lost part way through. Teach them a logical pattern and that same person under identical conditions will usually pull off a flawless "off the gun" (as Jewitt likes to call it) finish.
Kevin,
re:
"About Amber... I always thought that fossilization involved a mineralization process. If Amber can be melted then that can't be right."
Below is a definition of "fossilized" from Dictionary.com. It looks like definitions 1. and 2. cover the whole "loose" definition of the term:
fos·sil·ize View Image View ImageView Image /ˈfɒsView Imageəˌlaɪz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fos-uh-lahyz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -ized, -iz·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
Geology. to convert into a fossil; replace organic with mineral substances in the remains of an organism.
2.
to change as if into mere lifeless remains or traces of the past.
3.
to make rigidly antiquated: Time has fossilized such methods. –verb (used without object)
4.
to become a fossil or fossillike: The plant fossilized in comparatively recent geologic time.
5.
Linguistics. (of a linguistic form, feature, rule, etc.) to become permanently established in the interlanguage of a second-language learner in a form that is deviant from the target-language norm and that continues to appear in performance regardless of further exposure to the target language.
Peter28
You need to understand that many of the people I am speaking to have no knowledge or skill with regard to shellac. All they know is that it's used in fine furniture and everybody treats fine furniture delicately so it must be delicate.
There is a whole voodoo surrounding shellac that makes it a fearsome thing to contemplate for a newbie.
I want to make it so simple that the fear goes away. I always recommend buying premixed shellac, not that there isn't other ways to buy shellac but that is one less step to deal with and for a beginner that's important.. (actually that can be a whole lot more than one step but I digress)
I exaggerate about thinning it because the worst that happens if they thin it too much is they need to put more coats on, whereas if they make it too thick, dry, all sorts of problems crop up.. So I deliberately error on the side of too thin.. Few newbies can conceive dumping too much alcohol into what already appears to be well thinned stuff anyway so I encourage them to thin it out!
Same with my slop it on technique, you and I both know that you can quickly apply a nice even coat quickly.. But again a newbie who's terrified of the whole process will naturerally feel their way slowly and carefully which is exactly the wrong thing to do..
Slop it on certainly isn't elegant but it sure will put people at ease and that's the whole trick.. once they are comfortable with shellac they will expand their skills and real progress will be made at finishing..
I find shellac far from brittle.. I keep using my 150 pound Newfoundland as an example.. he can actaully groove or gouge the wood and the shellac adhears to the wood and doesn't flake up.. My Piano is well over 70 years old and there wasn't an issue of flaking on that either.. Someone spoke about a floor that was shellaced over 120 years ago and that stuff isn't coming up from flaking either..
I would think if flaking up is a problem the issue isn't the shellac but what's under the shellac. was the dust really cleaned off? Maybe dust in the wood pores caused it. Maybe it went on too dry, I'm guessing here so please accept that I don't know and am attempting to guess at something I have no real knowledge of..
Hi frenchy,
As you say you exaggerate the over thinning to get people to use it. They can add more to it as needed. My point besides alcohol, there is little being added. Just a small difference in philosophy nothing more.
I don't recall saying anything about flaking. Maybe someone else? It is one hell of a durable resin. It is in fact very brittle (in dry form). Just snap a few flakes in your fingers.
Although I don't do floor finishing, I did for someone in an historic home once. You guessed it, shellac. They couldn't believe how it looked on the wide pine boards.
The other point of pre-mixed versus making your own;
pre-mixed is easy , just open the can
Making your own is very easy, just grind up some flakes and add it to alcohol. I usually augment the process by putting a WELL SEALED container in a hot water bath. It couldn't be easier.
Also, fresh shellac is more water resistant and harder than store bought. That comes right from the powers that be at Zinseer. Speaking of hardness the clear is the least hard. Good thing your dog doesn't know that.
Peter
Peter28
Isn't this forum great?!? I learned things just now that I didn't know and it adds to my enjoyment of the hobby..
I'm trying to be helpful to others who are daunted by shellac as a sort of payback for all that I've gained from the magazine and the website..'
If I can get a few people to use Shellac instead of one of the other inferior finishes than I've succeeded in my goal. Or just to finish some nice work that needs protection. Heck when I first piped up it was in response to the I hate to finish thread and it sounded like a few people accepted what I had to say..
I certainly will grant that you have a much deeper knowledge of the subject matter than I do, I read your article when it came out and I was impressed. If I'd been newbie at that point I don't think I would have started to use shellac.. Not because anything you said was wrong,, it was great.. It just sounded more complicated than I was used to dealing with..
If my postings lack information it's deliberate. A decade ago I got my sister to use shellac and she hated the concept, But she watched me slop it on and looked at the result and said to herself, if that fool can do it, anybody can..
I use that approach now and count on folks like yourself to help me fill in the details Thank you..
Hi Frenchy
I agree the forum is great and I too have learned a lot from it.
Thanks for the feed back on the article. I know FWW does it's best to put out articles that will be popular. They send out a reader survey to see which ones make the grade and which don't. I've wanted to do an article on gilding for quite some time but they feel it won't make the grade. I'd love to do some on color layering and glazing techniques. For those who think wood should ONLY be natural, it would be summarily rejected. My other problem is I'm not a furniture maker so for me to have a demo piece around to finish and photograph at the same time is often difficult. I've stated this before; I have the distinction of writing the second LEAST popular Finish Line of all time. It was on the subject of graining. Talk about being rejected. If I had feelings,as the saying goes,that might have bothered me! I'll tell you though as a finisher having that skill can save your butt.
I had the wonderful opportunity of speaking at the Woodworkers Guild of Georgia's spring symposium this past weekend. Talk about a great group of people. One of the first questions I asked the audience was " Who drinks their coffee black" followed by "Who drinks it with cream and sugar" The group was split in half. Next I asked"Who stains their wood?" The point was it's only a matter of personal taste. That's the great thing about finishing.
It's interesting to see some of the critiques on the articles as being too mundane or not advanced enough. Same goes for the new show PBS is putting on. I'm sure they have done a very strong market survey before launching it. As the saying goes, you can't please everyone.
I see for the both of us, getting people comfortable with shellac is the key. Thanks for helping the newbies step across the threshold.
Peter
What issue was the article about graining in? And where can I get a copy of it?
You are abso-friggin'-lutely right that knowing how to grain can save your butt. You never, ever want to have to do it. But I can tell you that in the commercial finishing world where the veneers get thinner every year and the prep sanding skills of builders seem to degrade at about the same rate, knowing how to grain alone has saved my employer some $$$. Nothing that would break the bank. But in an economic environment where you have to pretend that Murphy's Law doesn't exist when you bid on jobs, it doesn't take a whole lot to turn a potential gain into a loss.
On a purely personal level, I must say that very few things have given me a real sense of accomplishment as turning an ugly sand-through where only the paper backer is left over, say, a silver dollar-sized area into a flawless repair wth nothing more than graining pencils that even I have a hard time finding the next day. I absolutely love it! It's definitely something that I'd like to learn more about in terms of technique and materials.
Kevin,
It was the finish line in the August 02 issue if I'm not mistaken. There was a clock on the cover.
I've got a job in the shop right now that requires it. A builder did fir cabinets per a clients request to replicate an old kitchen.
The veneer on the plywood panels was sanded a bit too much and now the evenly spaced lines of the substrate are visible. The choice was rebuild or grain. I did a sample to show them and I heard a sigh of relief. Basically it went like this;
I taped off the panels(which had a light coat of vinyl sealer) and finished the rest of the cabinet.
Removed the masking from the panels and taped off the moldings. The ground color was made with a white fast drying primer( which contained a vinyl co-polymer ) To this I added a golden yellow and red oxide Mixol tint to get my ground color. Applied one coat with a foam brush,(scratch coat) and then another color coat. Let dry. Applied two coats of Seal Coat. When dried, I sanded the coating flat with 220 and followed that with a grey scotch pad. I now have a nice flat surface. I missed the last couple of days with no heat but will keep you posted. Basically I have to make the glaze that I will comb out to create those fine grain lines found in fir.
The other problem they had was the crown molding. They were faced with buying fir and having a cutter made. I kept it simple for them by taking a piece of the white pre-primed molding they had and did a quick graining on it. The builder accused me of buying a piece of fir and painting the back white. :)
A couple of good books for reference;
The Art of Faux, Pierre Finklestein
Professional Painted Finishes, Ina Brousseau Marx, Allen Marx, Robert Marx.
Peter
P.S. If you do find the article look at the escutcheon on the mahogany example, that was painted too.
I've heard of Finklestein and seen his website. True faux finishing like what you do is something that I've always wanted to get into but just never seemed to have the time. All I've done is strictly small repairs using Sanford "Prismacolor" art pencils. They work amazingly well but are really only suited to relatively small repairs. And even then it can take a significant chunk of time to pull off a flawless repair.
The only book I have is published by Sunset magazine and is called :"Decorative Paint & Faux Finishes" that I bought on a whim a while back. But as I say... far too many irons in the fire to actually do something with it. Soon, though!
The job that I quit to go work for that last furniture factory I mentioned earlier was a place that intended to send me to what would basically have been a private schooling on faux finishing taught by a pro who had recently retired but was social pals with the head of our design dept. They were also going to send me to the Mohawk school in Souther Cali to learn proper repair techniques. But alas I was young and quit before either of those materialized and the rest is history.
The older I get the more that I come to realize the absolute truth in the old ditty that youth is wasted on the young. Now if I could just get my kids to buy into it...
It's hard to tell from your post whether you have spray equipment or not. If you do then you might consider vinyl conversion varnish. It's perhaps not quite as tough as regular conversion varnishes, but the trade-off is that it's not fazed by water and has a very well earned reputation for being resistant to many chemicals - which means that a wide variety of cleaning agents could be used to deal with most of the things that young boys can subject anything within reach to. AWI suggests it as the ideal finish for cabinetry going into a laboratory environment, for whatever that is worth. However it's not something that you'd want to apply by hand or brush.
Use the shellac. It can be easily repaired. Or use a NON poly wipe on varnish--satin finish. Both of these will look "natural"--not plastic--a fitting look for a loved grandson from a loving grandfather.Gretchen
I will chime in in support of shellac as well, but I can see why some would want other finishes, especially since shellac is a gloss finished unless applied very thinly, where it won't offer very much protection, or applied thickly enough that it can be rubbed out to bring it down from gloss to satin.
I would avoid polyurethane finishes. A good traditional resin varnish is nearly as durable in all respects except the kind of abrasion it might suffer if you walked on it. The Waterlox brand offers some good choices. I like the Original/Sealer which gives a very mellow gloss, but you may prefer the duller Satin or perhaps the Gloss. The resin is phenolic which is very tough.
I had some walnut just like you describe and test strips showed that Seedlac produced the best finish to show off the walnut. It has a dark brown tone and complements walnut. It is also used to reproduce antique finishes.
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