I am a novice with $500 in Home Depot gift cards from father’s day. My dilemma is whether to buy 3 Ryobi power tools (table saw, miter saw and router w/table for $99 each) and a reconditioned comressor/nailer combo OR buy only two better (more expensive) power tools. Keep in mind the little projects I’ve done so far, I’ve done with a hand saw and a Dremel tool. My next project is building my own plywood workbench featured in Fine Wood Working workshop solutions 2008. I am an enthusiastic DIYer so I don’t need contractor grade power tools but I don’t want to regret in a years time wasting my budget in entry level tools…
Please advise!
Thank you in advance,
Gor.
Replies
Gor,
I have found over the years that purchasing entry level tools are for the most part a waste of time, money, and project incentive. There are exceptions, but $99 table saws are not one of them. I am not a Borg shopper, and don't know much about Rigid power tools, but 'twer it me, I'd take the $500 and put it toward the best TS they have.
You then have a machine that will do what it's supposed to do, and that can be later sold for a reasonable price if you upgrade or loose interest in woodworking. The router can wait till later as can the miter saw.
Just my $00.02. I'm confident some other Knotheads will chime in with advise also! BTW, a lot of nice work has been turned out with a handsaw and Dremel.
Best!
-nazard
I'm with nazard. Buy the best you can afford if you plan on using the tool. I do occassionally buy machinery from a box store. But it is rare. They occasionally have a bargain, but I buy when they have a quality item at a competitive price. Then I buy for convenience.
No entry level power tool or machine excites me. If you are wanting to stay in the hobby for a lifetime, make lifetime tool purchases where possible. I didn't even know you could buy a $100 tablesaw.
Knowing what you are planning on building, will determine your selection of tools. Perhaps you could share with us what types of things you like to do and we can make a recommendation.
DO a little homework before you run out and spend your $500. Then go hunting not shopping.
Greg
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Exo 35:30-35
Gor,
Many of us have $99 dollar TS's sitting in a dark corner of our shops...I put a sanding disk on mine. You can easily spend your $500 on vises and clamps for the workbench. Some people on here have had nice tings to say about the Ridig Bandsaw (14")I thnk, should double check..that would give you great utility.
Gor,
I'm with Greg on this one. Buy the best you can afford that not
only meets your needs now - but in the future as your skills and
complexity of your projects grow. Always think and plan ahead!
I hope I don't bust your bubble - but Home Depot is not the ideal
place to buy tools. The DeWalt product you buy there may look &
feel like the DeWalt at WoodCraft or Marathon Tool (or wherever),
but they ARE NOT the same tool. In order for DeWalt (or whoever)
to sell to the box stores - they must meet box store pricing.
DeWalt will have the box store line built overseas with less
quality components / standards - while the DeWalt tools purchased
at the professional tool stores are built elsewhere with better quality
components / standards.
My advice is don't go for volume with your $500. Go for quality -
and as previously said - buy it for a lifetime and you'll never be sorry.
Or buy it once with the intention of only buying it one more time...
to upgrade.
Good Luck & have fun.
Bill-
Woodrat, I'm curious to get more detail about the difference in tools at stores like HD. I have heard that manufacturers of such things as snowblowers use thinner sheet metal than similar models sold at smaller stores, thus allowing for lower pricing, but this is the first time I've heard this claim about smaller tools from more specialized woodworking manufacturers. I recently bought a Porter Cable biscuit jointer at HD, and I'm interested to know how it could possibly be different from the ones you can buy online. For one thing, it was exactly the same price, so the only saving I had was on shipping. And from what I can see it seems to be as solid and well-made as the same PC model I've seen elsewhere.Gor, I, too, have a $99 Ryobi tablesaw I bought with a gift certificate, but it, too, is now gathering dust. It was my first power tool, and I used it for a year to make furniture. It's basically a circular saw turned upside down, and so doesn't even have the same type of motor as a conventional tablesaw. But that doesn't mean it's completely useless. Yes, the cuts it made were imprecise and the fence was shaky, but I'd square boards off and trim them afterward with hand tools (flea market tools tuned up with sweat equity). If a klutz like me could it, making decent furniture with a cheap saw is not impossible. But you will soon want a better one. I have since replaced mine with a good hybrid, which is easier to use, faster, and more versatile once you've got it set up precisely. I no longer have to fuss with the cut pieces. As you'll hear frequently on these forums, it's always better to buy your second tool first, but my view is that should never delay you from just getting to work no matter what tools you have. In my case, given my family's tight budget at the time, I simply did not have more than $99 to spend, and so starting with something better was a moot point. Either I could have waited another year to have enough money for a good saw, or I could have bought the cheap saw and started building things. The tools can make skill-building easier, but it's your own ingenuity and drive that really make the difference.
Years ago I bought a cordless tool from HD and in about one year the batteries went bad and they would not replace them. So I went to the local tool dealer and he gave me new batteries and explained the warranty of two years. HD did none of that. So HD has gotten none of my business since.
HD does sell some other brands, but their Ridgid TS 3650 tablesaw is one of the best contractor saws out there, quite capable of producing first-quality work. Ridgid tools are offered with a lifetime warranty. Unfortunately the price is usually around $600, but any saw that sells for much less isn't worth having -- for $99 you'll get a doorstop. Ryobi -- despite the naysayers -- has some surprisingly good tools, especially for hobbyist use, but that wouldn't include tablesaws and mitersaws at $99. I'd agree with the others on one good tool.
Jim
One high quality tool that works well is better than 10 that are junk. Most poor quality tools are poorly made and decrease the chances of good success. A lot of accidents happen using poor quality tools because too often they are under powered.
Gor,
Woodworking isn't a hobby for those with no money. Any tool worth having is going to cost a bit of money, even used they hold their value quite well. The biggest mistake begginers do is to try to outfit a shop too quickly on too small of a budget. These low end tools are often underpowered, and poorly constructed which beyond being ill suited for woodworking are also potential safety hazards.
I think you'd be amazed with what you can do with the basic compliment of hand power tools. A circular saw and guide works fairly well as a cheap alternative for a table saw, a jig saw makes a cheap alternative for a bandsaw. The accuarcy is similar to that of the cheap low end tools you were thinking about. High quality hand tools serve a dual purpose: hobby and home DIY. I believe that Popular Woodworking has an article on getting started in woodworking, and outlines a relativly inexpensive list of tools.
If you're still in for a large tool, I'd by one and it would be a good table saw. I'd skip the mitre saw, compressor and nailer until MUCH later.
Unless you don't mind fiddling around with your tools checking and double checking your set up every time, go for the best you can afford. You will not regret it. If you don't mind spending 5 minutes setting up your table saw fence the proper distance from the blade and parallel, then consider an inexpensive benchtop machine.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Thank you ALL for your prompt responses. The answer by consensus is clear, I will have to be patient and like Greg said go hunting not shopping. I have to admit, it surprised me a little to hear that The Home Depot (or Lowes) is not the answer. Where do you guys buy your tools? I live in Colorado and just yesterday "discovered" a place called the Tool King. They don't have $99 tools so that is probably a good sign. One of the sales reps was telling me they sell a lot of reconditioned tools with warranty like new, manuals, etc. Out of curiosity, do you have all Ridgid tools or all DeWalt, etc. Or take advantage of deals as they come your way regardless of brands.
Or is there a specific brand that makes the best table saw and a different brand well known for planers and another one with the best routers, etc?
The good thing is that I can always use the HD cards to buy lumber, clamps and many other things I don't have and buy the tools from the right place. This has been a learning experience already. My next step is to make sure there are no surprises in the gift cards' fine print and start looking. I don't have a specific project in mind besides the workbench for right now but eventually I'd like to finish my basement myself (yes, eventually).
This is a great forum, what you thought were just your 2 cents ended up being worth the big bucks in my world.
Thank you all again,
Gor.
PS I am now familiar with the Knots rules. I had posted my message under "Power tools and Machinery" and under "New to Woodworking" won't happen again.
Gor,
Where do you guys buy your tools? Unfortunately there is no pat answer to this. I think I would lean more towards old iron as the can represent the best value for your dollar but along with them usually comes a certain amount of rehab and here lies the the value. Rehabbing a tool can and often does lead to an education that usually returns a lot of knowledge in return. What price can we put on that????????
Here's a question that I've posed to potential computer buyers that I think also applies with tool purchases, especially major ones: What do you anticipate using it for? Sit down and right out a list of projects that you anticipate doing over the next few months/years. Many times you'll find the answer or at least some clues.
Above all, don't jump in without thinking about what you want to use it for. Do you need portability? What kinds of materials do you wish to process with it? Establish a base to work from.
And, perhaps the most important of all is search thru here and ask the Knotters. I don't know of anyone in here who doesn't want to help and there's a ton of experience at your disposal; the best bargain of all.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
If you have a place near you that sells reconditioned tools, that's a good thing. They may be there because something broke, or just because someone changed their mind or some other minor thing.
Home Depot will have some tools that are well worth considering. They carry major brands such as DeWalt, Porter Cable, Delta (iffy sometimes) not sure about Makita, and the Ridgid contractors tools such as cordless this and that are high quality. Their Ridgid table saw gets excellent user reports (including John White, erstwhile FWW shop manager). I like my $99 Ryobi cordless set. The drill has been a workhorse (chuck is a bit finicky), and the little saw comes in handy for quick rough cuts, avoiding dragging the big corded circular saw out.
You ask about how other members buy their tools. I'll respond.... (a) I watch user's reports at the forums and consider magazine reviews. With both of these sources of information, I look for repeated comments from different members or magazines, where the same weakness or strength gets cited repeatedly. That means it's not a simple prejudice, or inconsistency. (b) compare features and how solidly built they appear.
There are many ways to get bargains: Look for used tools in good and currently working condition via Craig's List or local classified ads. My routers came from a guy who was moving to France, he had an immaculate shop and all the tools had their owner's manual, were kept in excellent condition. The Unisaw came out of a working furniture shop, owner was moving out-of-state to take care of aging parents. Jet saw, mentioned earlier, given to me by framing shop, replaced the motor, good-to-go. Estate auctions, if you're in a major-city area can be a treasure-trove also. ($75 for a new-in-box JDS air scrubber!)
Look for model close-outs. My Bosch 12" compound miter saw was a real bargain, on Amazon with free shipping, when Bosch was getting ready to introduce their laser model I think. Same with the Grizzly band saw, though they now make much better saws now than the 1019Z.
Price-matched the Delta planer and got a pretty good deal. Bought the Jet jointer at a scratch-n-dent place near the Jet warehouse in Auburn, split the cost with a woodworking friend. We paid $365 I think? with 2 extra set of knives.
Unfortunately, you've missed the big anniversary sales for Bessy and Jorgenson clamps ;-) but watch for sales at Amazon. The Jet clamps come in a set that's pretty nicely priced.
The list goes on, but you get the drift!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/26/2008 2:02 pm by forestgirl
I'll second just about everything you say, including that you can buy decent tools at HD if you buy judiciously. But John White as ersatz shop manager? I think he'll be throwing something in your general direction ;>). Erstwhile?
Cheers, Jim
Oh, CR*P you're right! Slap my hand, hard, slap it again....bad typing fingers, stupid brain. I'll go back and fix it! ROFL!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, I knew it was a brain cramp, which was why I mentioned it -- I don't have much time for compulsive correcters. I'm just old enough to remember ersatz coffee ( milk, eggs) in WW2, so these days I get more cramp than brain. Across the pond, though, you can probably never have too many cramps.
Jim
I second everything Bob and FG said.
I'll add...Know your prices. Be willing to buy on the spot if you find a good price. You'll have to shop all the time. Make woodworking friend's. They will often pass down tools as they upgrade.
Also find out what the local professionals are using and why. For example: In a shop I used to work in. We only used Bosch barrel grip saber saws. Why? None of us liked to hold in a trigger. Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
First I would say, decide whether you are going to try a few projects to learn if you want to do WW as a hobby, or whether you already know you're hooked for life. I'd spend my money differently in those two scenarios.Assuming you are already hooked, do your homework for each tool you need to purchase know what want in your ideal shop. If you can't afford it now, look for an alternative that can get the job done until you can afford the upgrade. HD or Lowes can be the answer. I have seen sales on top brand equipment and I have noticed they are being more competitive with their pricing even to the point as being the same as online retailers.BTW, someone made the statement in an earlier post that the equipment sold at the box stores is not the same as that identical model sold at a tool supply. I don't know of any power tool for which this is true. A DeWalt D55168 sold at Lowes is the exact same machine, built in the exact same factory as the DeWalt D55168 sold at Tool King.I purchased a DW735 planer from Tool King. Very nice people to deal with. Got excellent personalized service. I have purchased factory refurbished and they always seem identical to new. But mfgrs are pricing factory refurb very close to new. I have discovered if there is a rebate, the new price becomes cheaper than the refurb price. Rebates generally do not apply to factory refurb.I personally rarely buy a brand for the name, I purchase the best made tool that I can afford. For example, for a table mounted router, I like the Triton 2-1/4 HP model. For a handheld router, if I had to go with a more affordable choice, I'd probably go with PorterCable. For a cordless drills, I started out with Makita because they were the best on the market at the time and contractors used them and abused them and they kept going.Since you are on a limited budget, Read the tool reviews in FWW and ask questions here. Buy the tools as you need them, not to just go out and equip your shop. Buy used when you can.Greg
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"BTW, someone made the statement in an earlier post that the equipment sold at the box stores is not the same as that identical model sold at a tool supply."
I, too, think that this is an urban legend. It is true that the big box stores may have a model that's sold only in those stores (an "exclusive," if you will), but it always has a different identifying number of some sort.
-Steve
Gor,
I agree with cincinnati, a dewalt at woodbraft is the same as a dewalt as Home Depot. I don't think a company would spend the extra time tom make a product inferior and ship this one here and ship that one there.
If you are going to make bigger projects save your money and buy the best table saw you can afford, you won't be disappointed with a good quality table saw. Personal story, when I got back to woodworking after college, I used my Grandfathers small TS, the fence sould not stay straight, adn the end result of the boxes I was making to me looked terrible. My quality was not limited to my skill but was limited to my equipment. So I saved up and bought a $1200 table saw, and probably will not ever upgrade unless I run across someone like you getting into woodworking and I want to sell him a good saw at an affordable price, at which time I would upgrade to a cabinet saw.
Good luck, keep asking questions there are a great number of guys to bounce ideas off of here.
DAve
As for the money at Home Depot, I would buy the lesser priced tools you will need, such as mentioned before some clamps, and I personally would buy a good quality router such as a proter cableChildren are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
I know power tools are attractive, but do not loose sight of what can be done with hand tools. A good set of chisels, a square, a back saw and a few other items and you can work inside or out with little noise and mess.
Do not forget you will need clamps whichever way you go!
I posted a reply on this thread early on, but somehow it got lost in the bitstream. I'll second what others are saying -Do not buy cheap tools. It's far more expensive than buying good, well-thought of, capable tools in the first place.
I speak from first-hand experience here. I struggled with a Ryobi BT-3000 table saw for more than 5 years before I finally wised up and ponied up the bucks for a UniSaw. Had I known better in the first place, I'd have bought the best contractor TS I could buy, and then upgraded to a cabinet saw later. In fact, If I'd bought a good contractor's saw in the first place, I'd probably still be using it.
Finally - If you're only willing to spend $500 to get your start, this is what I'd suggest: Don't buy any stationary power tools. One good one will blow your entire budget. Buy:
A good, corded drill - corded models are less convenient than cordless ones, but they have oodles of power and are a lot cheaper for a quality tool. (about $60)
A good panel (circular) saw - I went with Dewalt here, but Porter-Cable and Bosch will be a bit cheaper and equal in quality (just a few less features - about $100 with a blade)
A good 48" clamping straightedge - Most woodworking stores carry these (about $25). This tool will allow you to cut a straight line across the width of a full plywood sheet, whether or not you can do it free-hand
A good 12" steel rule (from a good brand, like Starret - some Japanese brands like Mititoyu can be had for a bit less), and a good 16" Stanley Fat Max tape measure. - total about $30
A good jigsaw - I favor Bosch here. About $130
A good set of chisels - this does not mean plastic-handled, made in China stuff that you find in Home Depot. For the budget conscious, I'd go with the Marples (plastic) blue-handled chisels from someone like Lee Valley or Garrett-Wade. About $100.
This leaves you with about $50. I would spend this on 4 cabinet maker's clamps (the wooden-jawed, steel screw kind from a decent brand like Jorgenson).
You will still need to buy various and sundries like glue, sandpaper, and, of course, wood, but this will get you started on making a number of simple things, particularly simple tables, chests and other similarly useful things.
Oh yeah - and a subscription to Woodworking Magazine and the bound, issues 1-7 book (you can get this from http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/magazines.asp). The editors of this magazine focus on projects and tools in simply-equipped shops, and there's a lot of great articles on how to use hand tools, which you will want to learn to use (it's a lot cheaper than buying power equivalents for most operations).
Well thought out advice, but I'd go for a combination square instead of a rule. Starrets are nice, but I have a beautiful Empire 18" combination square I picked up on sale for about $20 which leaves little to be desired. (Well, actually nothing.)Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Gor,
I found my Marples at Lowes years ago, so Gor it is a matter of hunting. dkellernc's list is a very good "starter list"
DaveChildren are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
"Contrary to general belief, tools do not make a skilled woodworker. (I’m going to pay for this one)"
I'm in complete agreement. But there is a point when your skill surpasses the tool and it may be time to upgrade from those Buck Bros combo rasp/chisels. lol.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
I've got a box full of loaner tools. The circular saw is from Montgomery Wards and throws sparks out the side. The sander is from Sears, all aluminum and makes your hands itch just looking at it. Funny...no seems to want to borrow tools anymore.
It's a pity we don't put more emphasis on apprenticeships. The value of learning from a seasoned professional. But this is another thread to be started.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
"but I don’t see it happening because there isn’t enough interest in today’s kids to do otherwise."
Interest... That's part of the problem. No interest. Not enough disipline either.
When I was five my parents started me in Marital Arts. A good friend asked me what I learned at five. My answer, learn to sit still for a half and hour.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
My wife says I should have had lessons in marital arts too. ;>)
Jim
Is she saying you need discipline? Or can she kick your butt? ROFL.Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Gor,What is your budget to get started? I just realized you asked what to do with the $500 HD credit. But do you have a greater budget?While we're waiting for a reply, I'll tell you that I started out much like dkellernc recommends. I could not afford a table saw. And I had a DW 18V circular saw. I added a 48" and a 96" clamp-n-guide, a good tape measure and square. I also added a PC 690 Router and a utility knife. With this tool set-up I designed and made an entire set of cabinets and a variety of mouldings and columns for my office.This system is a little compromising in terms of speed, but not a compromise in quality. I could still work that way if I had to today. It was very satisfying. Only once in a while did I wish I had a TS.I also believe now that a good used machine is better than a cheaply made new one. If my budget for a TS is $500, I would be looking for a used Powermatic or Unisaw rather than a new Ridgid TS for the same amount of money.So I am looking for a specific set of used equipment at specific price points that I could re-build/refurbish. I am not in a hurry, so over the next 6-12 months I have a "hunting list" and will be ready for the kill when my target appears! In the meantime, I have hand tools and hand power tools that will accomplish the job.Greg
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Hi everyone. Thanks for all the advise and encouragement. Seems like the more I read your comments, the more I realize how looong is the road ahead of me. "The one thing I know is that I know nothing"
I don't have a project in mind. I take that back, I want to make my work bench, a plywood one from a magazine. Nothing as fancy as the ones I've seen people post here in other threads. A few years ago, I helped a friend who was into WW and used to be a contractor himself to do a couple of projects for his house. I imagine all you like him (Will). Will would take the time to teach me the right terminology (cut vs rip etc) and like you all, he took pride in his work and like me, is a bit of a perfectionist.
I guess the reason I got more than a phone call for father's day is because my kids are 4 and 2. I hope that later in life I will also get at least the phone call (not asking for money of course).
Here is my short list of tools: I own a Bosch corded drill and a Skil circular saw, two Irwin 6" clamps and two pipe clamps about 4' (from a garage sale $5 for both) My Dremel tool with a useless router adapter. A hand saw that came with my Stanley miter box (the yellow plastic ones from HD). Couple of hammers, set of cheap chisels and a recyled kitchen table/island I call my workbench.
For right now, I only have the $500 but I am starting a WW piggy bank so unless my car needs a major repair or something else (Murphy's law) I should be able to buy a nicer tool every now and then. For now I am leaning towards the TS or the 14" Band saw but I am not sure I know how one type would be better than the other.
I am getting the book dkellernc recommends and go "hunt" for tools. As far as the saw goes I'll look at the reconditioned ones at the Tool King. I don't think I should buy used power tools from places like Craigslist since my lack of WW instinct would probably get me a lemon and I would not know where to take it to get it fixed and with out a warranty...
Last week I was ready to pull the trigger on those Ryobi $99 each tools. Now I am thinking pawnshops, tool king, ask around, Craigslist, etc. I would love to be able to do an apprenticeship somewhere in "Utopia-land" but my reality would not allow me to (work and family).
I will keep you all posted on any progress.
Thank you all again,
Gor.
Gor,
It is a long road and with a 2&4 year old competing for time and resources priorities are constantly being adjusted. I'm personally glad to see your focus on the workbench first that can provide a lot of utility, enjoyment and save a lot in cost. The workbench is petty much an essential for hand tools, to up your quality, I use it extensively for panel glue up using cleats and wedges..saving on clamps. Also, as you'll learn, glue-ups can be a bear. You need a flat surface to ensure the piece is not cockeyed...damhikt.Lastly, wood is expensive. I dumpster dive. I recycle 4x6" into all kinds of dimensions with the bandsaw. Very often the wood I retrieve needs seasoning for a while, so you might think about potential sources...(hard wood suppliers).
OK, here's what I would do in your circumstance:You have a great start in hand tools. Bosch & Skil are generally well-made even in the discount store product lines. You can do a lot with what you have. Start by building your workbench. Try to visualize each step of construction. Ask yourself "how do I make this part with the tools that I have?". When you can imagine each part being made, you are ready to cut wood. IMHO, you need a good straight edge. The least expensive is probably one of those 4 ft drywall squares. I saw one at Lowes a week or so ago for $30 that has the short leg removable. The first thing I would do is use it to make a zero clearance rail for your circular saw. I would decide how much to invest in educational material. Be careful, you can become book/DVD poor quickly. Some HD's carry a lot of books.At this point, you will have invested only $30-$50 of your $500. Sit on the rest until you start working. You may need a drill bit or replacement blades for your saws. Sharp tools yield better quality results. Only spend the rest as a need arises. I also recommend your learning to make as many " tools" as you can. For example, you can make a square out of two strips of wood or metal or plastic. You can even start with a speed square for a few dollars. Just check it out to assure it is truly square. I could not afford to go apprentice with someone, so I apprenticed by reading and watching videos. Go to your local bookseller. Sit down with a cup of coffee and every WW mag they sell. Peruse them each month for several months until you get the feel for which ones are for you. Then subscribe to the ones you can afford. I recommend FWW because you need to read at least one magazine featuring projects and people who are at a skill level above where you are today.As far as your having a looong road ahead, this is a journey not a destination. I am always learning something. I've been at this 20 years. I still marvel at what others do. And more importantly, I challenge myself to excel based on the inspiration of others. Some I will surpass, others I will never reach the level they are at even today. So find enjoyment in learning the next step and building the next project — your workbench.Greg
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Considering what you already have, I suggest you purchase the following:
A good plunge router with a fence - Bosch makes excellent ones for under $200 (some models under $150). You can do more with this one tool than you can with almost any tool in your shop. Specifically, you've nothing right now that will allow you to cut and fit anything other than butt/miter joints, or make any moldings. If you intend to build furniture other than simple boxes, you'll have to do better than that, because a table or chair just won't hold up without better joints. Don't concern yourself with horsepower - even a 1-1/2 HP router will cut joints admirably, and you can get a larger one to supplement your initial purchase later (most woodworkers have and use more than one router)
There's a lot of ways to cut mortise and tenon and box/dovetail joints, some of which are: non-powered hand tools only (my route - more for historical accuracy than anything else); a table saw, a dado set and some shop-built jigs, a fenced plunge router and some very inexpensive wooden jigs, and a professional, integrated tool like the Festo Domino.
The least expensive, and probably easiest to set up and use route is the router by far.
Measuring tools - you're absolutely going to require something more than a tape measure. A combination square is an excellent suggestion - buy the best you can afford here, as the end result of your projects will sensitively depend on the accuracy of this item. You will also require a larger square - the 2' builders squares are a good start. You must have something other than a pencil to mark your joints - generally, a marking knife and/or a scratch awl. You can use a correctly sharpened pen knife for this, but perhaps a better choice would be a dedicated small marking knife such as those made by Hock (cheapest - make your own handle), Chester Toolworks or BlueSpruce Tool Works.
I'd leave out the jigsaw in my original list for now - It's an excellent inexpensive substitute for a bandsaw when it comes to cutting surves, but you will probably decide (and I'd recommend) to stick with rectilinear designs for your first projects.
Save the rest for books and tools as you need them. While it is indeed very easy to go way overboard with woodworking books, knowledge is essential. You will not get very far with your skills without a few good books and/or a live teacher. If you have a local woodworking shop that offers a basic woodworking course, take it. It will be the best $100-$200 you ever spent.
I would use the HD cards to get: a good set of drill bits:, a fine tooth blade, (or two) for the skill saw; the Ryobi corded drill with a clutch, (one of the better $40 you can spend), it lets you drive screws without breaking them; a good multi base variable speed router, with both 1/4 and 1/2-inch collets and an edge guide; router bits, 1/4-in straight, half inch straight, 1/4 or 3/8-inch round over, 3/8-inch cove, 1/2-inch flush trim, (buy other bits as you need them for a project); a true combination square, (you may have to check ten or twelve before you find one that is true); spend any money left on clamps, HD sells a good selection of Jorgensen clamps.
Read through the article on the bench you want to build and be sure you have the tools, blades, bits, and clamps you need to build it. You can build your own straight edge guides for the skill saw, and the router, most of the commercial ones don't work well for long cuts in plywood.
I started woodworking with a very basic do it your self kit, of good quality. I bought more, and better tools as I needed them. My first bench was a large walnut executive desk, I bought from the salvation army for $20. Before that I worked on a solid core door, as the top surface of torsion box, that sat on two saw horses. I did have the advantage of Dad's shop only being twenty miles away, so I could go use his table saw, drill press, router table, etc. if I needed to.
I built a lot of things, (a kitchen table, bunk beds, changing table, toy boxes, etc.) with hand tools, a drill, and a skill saw. The addition of a router and router table were a huge leap forward.
Sure it does.
Watch, listen and learn. That's what parents would say to me.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
I'm with you, but depending on which tools you buy, the can limit what you can do with them. Think under-powered or innaccurate.
Was you Father's Day phone call collect?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Gor,
Greg's post reminded me of a couple of things.
One: Build a bench. You will find countless times when you need to clamp/cramp something in place so you can work on it. A good workbench will become your go to tool in your woodshop.
Second: Whilst building your library of information you most likely have one right under your nose - your local library, and the cost is tough to beat. Most if not all libraries have loaner programs, i.e. they can get books that they don't have from other libraries. If you happen to find a book/video that you want to keep they usually can get it for you to purchase - and usually cheaper than anywhere else.
Also perhaps one of the best sources of info. is right here - and it's free too. Well, if you consider how much content is available to you and the money you'll save by taking advantage of it.......................
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"And to think that he gets all my tools when I’m gone, scary thought." You can fix that. ;-)
Gor,
You got a lot of advice that I completely disagree with. Then I read the responses by Wineman and Mufti. Those two guys are right on.
You don't need a lot of expensive tools to make fine furniture. For my first decade in woodworking, I had a homemade workbench on the outside deck of trailer or an apartment. I had only Craftsman tools: a circular saw, a router, a drill and a belt sander, and they weren't "Sears Best". I turned out lots of furniture that I am still very proud of. The fence for my circular saw was an 8' long, one foot wide cutoff from a piece of plywood. I still have that "fence". I kept it for "old time's sake". Now I have more and better tools than I had then, but now I am 64 and retired. Woodworking has been my PASSION since 1968.
In woodworking, tools are not the CENTRAL issue. The Central issues are skills and attitudes. You don't even need any powered tools. You can build wonderful stuff with handtools. It takes longer, but unless you are in business, what's the hurry. Do you hurry through sex? No. Good. Why hurry through woodworking?
Work on building an attitude of self confidence -- that you can and do make excellent furniture with whatever tools are available. Work on building an attitude of "continuous improvement" -- on building a set of skills that widens in depth and breadth, with each project.
Study the furniture makers of past centuries. Some did some GREAT STUFF. None of them had any Festools. None of them had a SawStop. You don't need such things either.
Too many woodworkers laugh at the old Blue chisels from Marples/Irwin. They sing the praises of THE BEST CHISELS. I guarantee you that any woodworker who is worth his salt, can build WONDERFUL furniture even if the only chisels in his/her shop have Blue handles. So what if you have to sharpen them more often.
Enjoy your woodwork, and do it without worrying if you are buying the best tools. If others want to talk to you about what tools you have, then switch the conversation to the furniture that they and you make. That is far more fun, and you will learn far more from it. Don't focus on tools. Hang out with GOOD woodworkers and focus on their skills in using tools.
So now you have lots of widely different pieces of advice. Now think critically about that advice. Think about what you want ouf of woodworking. If what you want is "good tools", then go for it. If you want to have fun building great furniture, then do that. You don't need great tools to make great furniture, or to have fun.
There are some nice things about Home Depot tools. Ridgid will give you a lifetime warrantee on their tools. All you have to do is send in some info. What other maker will warrantee their tools for the duration of your life?
I enjoy using power tools to make bowls. I needed an angle grinder to hold my 4" chainsaw blades. I called the people at King Arthur's tools, and asked their recommendation on which angle grinder to get. The answer was "Ridgid". I have used it for months and made lotsa of bowls out of "firewood". It performs its function flawlessly. Don't hang around with elitists who say buy the best (read "expensive") tools. Hang around with people who build good furniture.
I work at Woodcraft two days a week. I know people who come in and buy only the most expensive tools. I also see a lot of people who come in with photos of their latest project. I learn more by listening to the second group than the first. Any fool with a lot of money can buy the most expensive tools. Festool now has a chop saw that sells for $1300 plus tax. I hold that anyone who cannot build fine furniture without a $1300 chop saw is not a good woodworker.
By the way, I have nothing against Festool. They make great tools. I have nothing against rich people who spend a lot of money on tools. It's a lot of fun.
Do you need a $150 saw to make dovetails? NO NO NO. Tage Frid used a bowsaw. You can make a bowsaw yourself. (The details are important.) Ray Pine uses a $10 gent's saw. Of course, Ray is highly skilled. Tage was no slouch either.
I have gone on too long, but I have enjoyed it. I hope my ideas are of some use to you -- even if you decide I am out of touch with reality. I hope that you think about what I have said before coming to whatever conclusion that you come to. Please let me know what conclusion you come to.
By the way, the most important tool a woodworker has is his/her mind. A great way to improve that tool is free -- the local library. You can join a woodworking group for not much money a year and you can learn a great deal by listening to experienced folk.
You don't need much money to make great furniture.
You can do just fine at Home Depot.
Mel
Enjoy,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
yeah, so I am late posting, but want to put my 2 cents in. I have the Ryobi TS, mitersaw, and router table. The mitersaw is not square and I cant get it squared, the routertable is concave, but otherwise not to bad, the tablesaw (BTS1500) is great, but they don't sell it anymore, the only thing I don't like is the lack of miter slots, but it does have the inaccurate sliding miteguage.
SAVE YOUR MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, my best friend is a hammer.
What a coincidence Mel, I just enrolled in Woodcraft's Woodworking 101 today. I start 7/8/08. I'll be able to use their tools and learn from the very beginning the right way of doing things. It'll allow me to "play" with different types of tools and then decide how serious I am about all this and give me a better perspective as far as whether I want to buy more sophisticated tools, or go the route of the traditional hand made woodworking or somewhere in between.
Gor.
Mel is generally correct. A $2000 set of hand-wrought Japanese dovetail chisels are nice to have, and the edge will hold up far longer than an inexpensive set. In the end, though, no one will know whether you cut the dovetails on your latest blanket chest with those Japanese chisels, or a set of plastic-handled Marples.
That said, several noted woodworking authors (David Charlesworth, for one) have noted that buying woodworking tools at the very lowest end of the market is fraught with difficulties. Many inexpensive tools function very, very well (Zona's small gent's saw and miter block being one of them - $15). Many of them absolutely suck and will hold your skills back - a $15 Stanley dovetail saw being a good example. It's not that the Stanley cannot be made to work well, but it takes someone with a good deal of handsaw filing and teeth setting skills to accomplish that. There is a raft of newbie woodworkers out there that assme they cannot hand cut dovetails, because they've tried it and the results were disastrous. Rob Cosman makes the point (and he's right) in his two videos on cutting dovetails that a good saw doesn't make a good dovetailer, but a bad saw makes everyone a bad dovetailer.
The same thought can be extended to power tools. There are very few of us that really need Festo's incredibly expensive, incredibly precise and tough power tools. However, many of us that have chimed in and suggested that you not buy Rigid or (especially!) Ryobi tools do so from first-hand experience. These tools are at the dirt-cheap, lowest possible price end of the market, and a lot of their products will yield very poor results. It took me a couple of years using Ryobi's BT-3000 table saw to realize why I could never get a straight crosscut, and why every board I tried to rip in two had burn marks on the edges. It turns out that both the miter guage and fence on the BT-3000 were not only not square, but after adjustment to make them square they'd drift back out after a couple of cuts.
I finally spent an entire afternoon measuring the alignment, arbor run-out, table flatness and scales on that saw. Not only would the fence not hold a parallel adjustment with the blade, the fence itself was warped over 1/16"! The next day I gave it to a contractor friend to use for roughing out construction lumber, and bought a Unisaw.
The point here is that I sorely wish I'd listened to the advice I'd been given and never purchased that Ryobi. It held me back for nearly 3 years, and my time is far more valuable (to say nothing of the stress of frustratingly bad results) than the $750 I saved buying that saw. And it took me 3 years to understand why the saw was so bad - no newbie woodworker should have to go through that.
Edited 6/29/2008 10:49 am ET by dkellernc
But why put roadblocks in your way? That seems down right silly, and doesn't focus on the end goal, which is to turn out high quality woodworking. Perhaps you feel differently, but the skills I have for measuring table/jointer fence accuracy are a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
Moreover, the rise in quality (and usability!) with woodworking power tools rises very, very steeply from the rock-bottom, dirt-cheap off-brands to the mid-range tools, and saves you little money. In my case, it cost me money.
Actually, you do know at least one - me. After the experience with the Ryobi table saw and an equally crappy Craftsman band saw, my first planer and jointer (and still in use) were a Dewalt and a Delta DJ-20, respectively. My first router and all subsequent ones were Dewalt and Bosch. My first (and still in use) jigsaw is a Bosch. I learned my lesson and didn't repeat the mistake, and I sorely wish I'd had an experienced person tell me NOT to buy those cheap tools before I did so. It'd be nice to know I helped someone else out BEFORE they made the error.
And yeah, I do loan good chisels to novice workers. The most recent small class I taught on cutting dovetails by hand used Lie-Nielsen saws and Lie-Nielsen chisels, and I gave the attendees a list of hand tools that I considered workable and some examples of those I considered not worth buying. The Marples blue-handled chisels were on the list of good chisels because of the steel. Most of the brands that Home Depot carries were on the "not recommended" list (chisels, at least). The list of saws didn't contain any saws that were less than $100, because to my knowledge, there are no dovetail saws that will perform adequately WITHOUT tuning by an experienced user that are below that price point. The list included L-N, Adria, Grammercy, and Wenzloff & Sons.
And no, a cheap tool in the hands of master will still yield crappy results, PARTICULARLY when it comes to hand tools, and particularly when it comes to saws. The ability of a handsaw to properly track a line is very much in the width of the set relative to the width of the blade, the tooth rake, and sharpness. Chisels are similar in that a bellied tool will not allow the user to correctly pare a bottom to a pin socket that's horizontal over its width and square to the face.
Telling newbies to save some money and buy inadequate tools is cruel, in my opinion, and doesn't further the goal of introducing new people to the craft. There was more than one person in that class that admitted that they bought a $500 dovetailing jig out of frustration with their inability to cut them by hand. To a person, those individuals had unworkable tools, and they cut nearly perfect dovetails with the tools I lent them.
"The list of saws didn't contain any saws that were less than $100, because to my knowledge, there are no dovetail saws that will perform adequately WITHOUT tuning by an experienced user that are below that price point."
There are some much more than adequate Japanese dozuki saws that are in the $50-60 range.
-Steve
I don't care for Japanese saws for dovetailing, but I stated my prejudice up front to the class and noted that there are many accomplished woodworkers that prefer them. The reason I don't start newbies out with these saws is that its difficult to find a fret saw with a narrow enough kerf to saw out the tail waste without marring the sidewalls, and the saw's plates are so thin that I've observed more than one brought to this class that are badly kinked from getting the plate caught in the kerf a little cock-eyed and then bent from the force of the return stroke.
Here's what I started with...Handy Andy tools
View Image
Never looked back.
Just a moment of levity.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
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